pHaley + Stormwall

[Crate123]

So now that people have had a chance (maybe) to play against this combo, what are the tactics that have worked and which havent ? Has it changed the way you build lists for random games ?
If it makes a difference Im mostly interested in 50 point games.

[Obeisance]

The best answer I can come up with is eShade and Kraken. Phantom Hunter her in the face.

I'm sure there's others.

[Deo85]

The 35 pnt game I played my friend dangled his caster off on a flank thinking that I could not make the threat range to get to him.... big mistake... Also he sent his storm wall to go contend my bane thralls who ended up ripping the thing apart.

So fare if the storm wall plays offensive and gets in the toss sole if you got enough body's you can bring the guy down now if he decides to play defensive with covering fire and shots galore I never can get with in 6" of the thing.

[2LiveIs2Die]

That's actually terrible. You need 11 to hit and you won't ever connect with the cannon due to shield guard.

[PaintVagrant]

So far the best answers I have heard are pDenny + high pow guns/CRAs and Venethrax, using lamentation to force her away/lose on scenario. Neither great answers, but at leasts its probably a game.

Guns are really what helps this matchup, and what Haley1 really doesnt like in general.

[Eradanphx]

I don't think it's near as threatening as once thought. I've played it several times on the table, both ignored it, and scrapped it. It is a threat for sure, and needs to be played around, but wasn't a 14" Threat Stormclad as well?

[Bohrdog]

Skarre and Satyxis Raiders will eat them up and leave them scared.

[Sheer_Falacy]

I don't think it's near as threatening as once thought. I've played it several times on the table, both ignored it, and scrapped it. It is a threat for sure, and needs to be played around, but wasn't a 14" Threat Stormclad as well?

Prime Haley is not the same as epic haley.

(clearly you meant epic since prime doesn't buff threat range at all)

[Crate123]

Skarre and Satyxis Raiders will eat them up and leave them scared.

How ? Its almost impossible to charge the stormwall if the opponent knows how to place those templates.

Venethrax is my thought as well so far, just so if she wants to put up TB she wont have any focus left over at all.

[Sanctjud]

Ranged is the answer... and then there is much lulz.

You can 'try' to out attrition her army's output... you can get lucky sometimes.

[various]

Fought against it and won with pGaspy. Ignored Stormawall, murdered everything else and won by scenario. Stormwall can't be everywhere at once and can be outmaneuvered fairly easily.

[Crate123]

Fought against it and won with pGaspy. Ignored Stormawall, murdered everything else and won by scenario. Stormwall can't be everywhere at once and can be outmaneuvered fairly easily.

Still you cant charge anything and you cant run, if its a center scenario I cant really see how you can maneuver very will with pHaley ruining your day.

[various]

Oh yeah, forgot to add: kill the Stormsmiths ASAP! Otherwise it's death by lightning triangulation. Fortunately they're pretty soft but there's likely to be a few of them. Have found the Stalker to be decent for this: fast, Stealth, Pathfinder, MAT 7, two attacks, extended control range. A little costly at 4pts to deal with a cheap Solo but nailing those Stormsmiths is a serious priority.

[various]

Yeah, wasn't a centre scenario so can't help there. Flank the bugger with something cheap, fast, and hard hitting. The fire arcs on the big guns make it hard to target everything at once so you can flood it by having multiple threat vectors it takes the pressure off as most of the guns only have a 90 degree forward arc.

[Nalik]

EGaspy1, feated banes

[Crate123]

EGaspy1, feated banes

They cant do anything at all. They have at most 10,5 inch threat range, temporal barrier extends 11" in front of the Stormwall. So you would need to place them inside the temporal barrier and that means they can not charge but at the same time they must charge. That ends with them not doing anything at all. pHaley totally removes Gaspy2's feat.

[Baenre]

Play scenario and hope the scenario requires them to close some distance closer to you. If it has anything to do with getting into their deployment while it sits there it's time to pull out Venethrax and chase her away from the thing.

Alternatively you could put a mass of banes and hell divers around Pskarre and feat through the templates to get it in melee.

Scenarios are really where the collosals have issues and their concentrated points can be a huge detriment. I can't rememeber the last casual game i had that wasn't a scenario of some type.

I actually see the Khador Collosal being a bigger issue with Sorcha because it works so well with her and is a great piece for all types of scenarios and her Jack bond with it is ridiculous.

[Crate123]

Play scenario and hope the scenario requires them to close some distance closer to you. If it has anything to do with getting into their deployment while it sits there it's time to pull out Venethrax and chase her away from the thing.

Alternatively you could put a mass of banes and hell divers around Pskarre and feat through the templates to get it in melee.

Scenarios are really where the collosals have issues and their concentrated points can be a huge detriment. I can't rememeber the last casual game i had that wasn't a scenario of some type.

I actually see the Khador Collosal being a bigger issue with Sorcha because it works so well with her and is a great piece for all types of scenarios and her Jack bond with it is ridiculous.

Thats true but at least I can actually charge that thing with my models and our melee infantry is very unlikely to die from creeping barrages and I dont have to worry about dispelling Arcane Shield so it has lower armor and I can actually debuff it as well- The stationary is evil but it dies a ton easier.

[Nalik]

They cant do anything at all. They have at most 10,5 inch threat range, temporal barrier extends 11" in front of the Stormwall. So you would need to place them inside the temporal barrier and that means they can not charge but at the same time they must charge. That ends with them not doing anything at all. pHaley totally removes Gaspy2's feat.

Knights the other Bane meat. Threat range on the Knights is 12 (SPD 5 +3" charge +2" Curse +2" Reach) Haley in base to base with the rear of the Stormwall with a Squire is 11" from the base of the Stormwall.

Use Parasite once with Gaspy and once thru a scarlock if you catch her with 0-1 focus. You can bait Arcane Vortex with Orin bouncing a lightning off the Stormwall and into her also since it's a magic ability (spell).

[Crate123]

Knights the other Bane meat. Threat range on the Knights is 12 (SPD 5 +3" charge +2" Curse +2" Reach) Haley in base to base with the rear of the Stormwall with a Squire is 11" from the base of the Stormwall.

Use Parasite once with Gaspy and once thru a scarlock if you catch her with 0-1 focus. You can bait Arcane Vortex with Orin bouncing a lightning off the Stormwall and into her also since it's a magic ability (spell).

True, using the knights would be a good idea here. Reach is a fantastic ability.

[Khaunshar]

eSkarre + Satyxis actually still works, you just have to scatter them. In general, apply Bane Knights, Deathjack or Nightmare (remember to prey it) with any ARM debuff and go to town. Consider using Kraken + Ragman (12 inch charge range too)

[yux]

Goreshade the Bastard +6
6 = (12-6) DeathJack
5 Ripjaw
5 Ripjaw
5 Ripjaw
10 Nightmare
9 Seether
9 Seether
1 Necrotech

This is a dedicated Hate list for the Combo I will be testing on friday. Primarely preying upon Phaley Difficulty With Massed Stealth.
I plan on doing a battle report

[Aggy]

Goreshade the Bastard +6
6 = (12-6) DeathJack
5 Ripjaw
5 Ripjaw
5 Ripjaw
10 Nightmare
9 Seether
9 Seether
1 Necrotech

This is a dedicated Hate list for the Combo I will be testing on friday. Primarely preying upon Phaley Difficulty With Massed Stealth.
I plan on doing a battle report

This is probably the best list I have seen in a while. I might actually try this in a casual game just to see how it plays. I know Goreshade in and out so I should fare well against most armies. Hmmm, the possabilities.

[SpiderBite]

Apply Terminus worked for me

[Baenre]

Apply Terminus worked for me

That usually works with most issues cryx has and this one seems no different.

[Lamoron]

Apply Terminus worked for me

That was a fun read!

[yux]

Terminus is fine against single stormwall list but when you encounter double with most of the squisy models reduced in quanity spread out and in hiding it gets harder to work with.

In addition Counting on the withshadow combine to take out arcane shield is pretty ballzy considering if cygnar is good at one thing its putting power 10s in models.

Im not saying it would not work but I am assuming both players are equall skill level. 2 stormwalls is just very hard to kill, especially if both have arcane shield. i feel that Phaley is very favored agaisnt a terminus list.

[Aggy]

I hate playing against pHaley no matter what she is fielding. I would probably decline a game if she was the opposing warcaster and she was fielding two Stormwalls.

[Sanctjud]

Being disqualified from a tourney kinda sucks more than playing pHaley

But yea, there are plenty of Casters people don't like to play against...like most of the Cryx casters

[yux]

Reminds me the first time I was running a siege list agaisnt skarre my opponent turn 2 ran DJ On top of siege, and says you cant target dj or any other important model. The funny part was I wasnt sure I could even kill DJ if I could target him.

Warmachine is a game with alot of balance issues, ironically haveing hate options like phaley go along way to stabilize the game and prevent everyone from running the same broken models.

I mean Have you ever taken a look at DJ from other factions perspective hes absurd

[Marth]

I mean Have you ever taken a look at DJ from other factions perspective hes absurd.

I rejoice in hearing that from a cryx playx, but I'd still call DJ "border-line absurd" at best. I hate the Avatar more.

That said, I don't think it's a real stormwall problem. It's actually a pHaley problem.

[Baenre]

Reminds me the first time I was running a siege list agaisnt skarre my opponent turn 2 ran DJ On top of siege, and says you cant target dj or any other important model. The funny part was I wasnt sure I could even kill DJ if I could target him.

Warmachine is a game with alot of balance issues, ironically haveing hate options like phaley go along way to stabilize the game and prevent everyone from running the same broken models.

I mean Have you ever taken a look at DJ from other factions perspective hes absurd

Uhm..if you let a dj get to your caster on turn two that is not a dj issue that a player issue. Sorry to be so harsh but you could have easily avoided the dj on turn two.

I will assume it was one of your first wm games and things like that will happen. Any long time player, myself included , will tell you that when we first started playing we lost a lot of early games. It's the nature of the game and all of its variables. Losing may suck but if you learn from it and your opponent is cordial about explaining the opposing factions setup you will become a better wm player.

With a highly skilled player any faction can seem broken but in reality it's actually the players skill that is beating you. Play more games and learn more before jumping to conclusions about a faction unlike others who refuse to learn how to play against each faction.

2xsw only becomes an issue in a straight up gunfight. Then again a cygnar gun line can be devastating in a straight up gunfight, especially with minimal terrain. That setup won't do nearly as good in scenario play where they can't stand side by side with each other.

[Deo85]

Don't know about you but I lost my DJ a tone of times by pure focus fire. Hes the large target that walks 6" forward and has a sign on his head that says "shoot me" His armor is not high enough to soak up hard hitting range shots and you cant hide him vary well less you got terrain that is near your enemy that can do the trick. DJ is amazing when he gets the alpha strike on a hord of infantry that is living and they leave a gap open so you can kill more then 2 guys... If you don't get this then hes pretty easy to scrap on the counter charge. Granted a fully loaded DJ (5 focus) will scrap any heavy I come up agents so fare but I need the alpha strike and nothing screening that heavy to pull it off.

[Crate123]

I rejoice in hearing that from a cryx playx, but I'd still call DJ "border-line absurd" at best. I hate the Avatar more.

That said, I don't think it's a real stormwall problem. It's actually a pHaley problem.

Its the combo of pHaley and Stormwall. You cant use infantry very well (if at all) against it, and even if you can you will almost never get a charge bonus and thus do ****ty damage. You cant really debuff it either due to pHaley and that means you have to either ignore it which is impossible in certain scenarios or use jacks to kill it which Cryx arent exactly fond of doing.

[PG_Tionas]

use jacks to kill it which Cryx arent exactly fond of doing.

This is the lesson many, many people are going to learn in devastating fashion. The meta is swinging slowly toward more jacks, and to me, thats ok. It does not invalidate infantry, you just have to play smart instead of rolling waves of infantry at it.

[Decade]

This is the lesson many, many people are going to learn in devastating fashion. The meta is swinging slowly toward more jacks, and to me, thats ok. It does not invalidate infantry, you just have to play smart instead of rolling waves of infantry at it.

And honestly, I'm cool with that too. But for a different reason. I'm a big fan of Skarre, and giving me more jacks to wail on with my raiders is never a bad thing in my mind. Heck, my last two games I won with her were due to me cycling backlash around to a bunch of jacks and just slow burning my opponent's warcaster down.

In fact, regarding the raiders + Ravenmane, they're a pretty good response to Haley1. If she camps behind the SW, and throws up TB, and you rolled good on Rit Sac the previous turn, you can force her to burn through her focus, and still get backlash onto the SW. Follow it up with feat and desperate paced raiders, and you can charge through to the SW. Minifeat with the witch, and you stand a pretty good chance of feedback/backlashing Haley to death.

Something else to consider is if Haley is casting TB, she's probably not casting Deadeye, because even with the squire, that doesn't leave her enough focus to keep spells off the stormwall with any certainty. And if she does deadeye, great, she's tapped on focus.

[PaintVagrant]

If she camps behind the SW, and throws up TB, and you rolled good on Rit Sac the previous turn, you can force her to burn through her focus, and still get backlash onto the SW. Follow it up with feat and desperate paced raiders, and you can charge through to the SW.

I assume you mean walk?

[GreenJello]

You cant really debuff it either due to pHaley and that means you have to either ignore it which is impossible in certain scenarios or use jacks to kill it which Cryx arent exactly fond of doing.

While it's very possible for pHaley to retain 3 focus AND TB, this means she's not putting any focus into the SWs. If she does, much less focus for the spear, which means that debuffing in certainly possible.

I assume you mean walk?

This really comes down to positioning. Even with a perfect pHaley setup + squire, you still only have to start 10" away to get the charge. You are allowed to charge from outside of TB to a target inside it.

[Decade]

I assume you mean walk?

No, I do mean charge. If Haley is standing directly behind the SW with a squire extending her CA, that means the barrier extends out around 11 inches in front of it. A unit of desperate paced raiders have a charge threat range of 14" (7 spd + 3 charge + 2 desperate pace + 2 reach). And that's assuming she's directly hugging the base. And even with walking, they're still theatening 11 inches away. Use a unit of blood witches on the approach to knife a sacrificial unit of mechanithralls in the back, and throw up clouds, and you're not getting shot at because she's not drawing LoS to your raiders through the smoke.

[Crate123]

No, I do mean charge. If Haley is standing directly behind the SW with a squire extending her CA, that means the barrier extends out around 11 inches in front of it. A unit of desperate paced raiders have a charge threat range of 14" (7 spd + 3 charge + 2 desperate pace + 2 reach). And that's assuming she's directly hugging the base. And even with walking, they're still theatening 11 inches away. Use a unit of blood witches on the approach to knife a sacrificial unit of mechanithralls in the back, and throw up clouds, and you're not getting shot at because she's not drawing LoS to your raiders through the smoke.

You still have to get through the covering fire which is hard to do if the opponent places them well.