Centurion: a new lease on life vs. hordes?

[Dais]

now that the hordes field test has been shown ive been re-examining cygnar's options and in the context of warmachine vs. hordes the centurion seems a great deal more appealing.
the cent's high arm, high health, and charge immunity seems to capitalize on warbeasts' weakness of lower pow and despite it's low speed the centurion is likely to charge most warbeasts without reach rather than be walked up to and attacked.
the drawbacks of the centurion (lower pow and mat) are offset by the lower arm and health of a warbeast as well as it's own critical sustained attack.
i plan on testing this out a bit but, without doing the math on it, the centurion may be quite effective vs. hordes here some of our other staples might be overkill on damage and easier to neutralize.
i'm hoping this wort turn into a flame about the cost of the jack or how it compares to other melee heavies because those others will retain their utility, but i think the cent may have a nice niche and i wanted to discuss it.

[phreaker187]

The move 4", make yourself unchargeable, repeat, repeat, for the amount of points you spend there are so many more options. Ironclad, Rowdy, Stormclad all have the advantage any way you slice it.

All four jacks will send a beast back to it's box, I prefer being more agile and being able to hit like a ton of bricks.

You can no longer cut for fury anymore in hordes so charge far, hit hard and, gg.

[admanb]

You can no longer cut for fury anymore in hordes so charge far, hit hard and, gg.

Yeeees you can.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

People called the Cent dead long before it was warranted.

It is a great jack with certain casters, less good with others. The shock that it wasn't a auto-include super-jack is what earned it such a bad name. There will be a time when it is loved again, and we will all wonder just what the problem was.

[Defenstrator]

I can't quite see that. At 8 points yes, but at 9 he's always going to be one of those jacks that you only take with certain casters.

[phreaker187]

Yeeees you can.

Oh really? I was told in MK2 that you can't. My bad.

[LemmingStampede]

The section on cutting for fury and reaving from dead beasts was accidentally left out at first. PP has posted the rules for it now, but it's an easy mistake to make.

The Centurion does get an advantage against Hordes, purely based on the fact that it is ARM 21. A lot of warbeasts rely on less pure strength of a single weapon, and more on having lots of attacks with slightly lower pow, like the warpwolf. With the high ARM of the Centurion, it becomes incredibly hard for those beasts to take him out because that extra ARM is shaving off more damage then it would against Mulg or a Carnivean who just have one big weapon to crush you with.

I still think the Centurion will be a jack you use with certain casters, but honestly I feel that way about all the jacks. Everyone has their heavy which fits best.

[whats82]

I haven't had a list where I wish had a centurion compare to other heavies unfortunately.

[whitekong]

Centurion is a good jack, he can take a beating like no other cygnar jack can. Sometimes all you need us a jack that is going to hang around for a while, and be a threat to a large area of the board.

[Shinobiwolf1980]

I bought my Centurion before I knew about the changes in Mk.II and so, I frequently field it with my Ironclad. People are terrified of my Ironclad for some reason or perhaps they just don't think they can hurt the Centurion fast enough. Whatever the reason, the Centurion is still intimidating. It still hits like freight train with that spear and at 21 ARM it can take a beating.

Now I'm the first to jump on the too expensive bandwagon and praying they do something about the shield, which no longer locks systems down. But it's not the worst Jack and if you've got enough points to take one and you don't have anything better (like me), then why not take it?

[elwoodblues6389]

The Centurion is and will always be one of my favorite Jacks. It fits its roll very well and is one tough hunk of machinery.

[Arkady]

The Centurion is and will always be one of my favorite Jacks. It fits its roll very well and is one tough hunk of machinery.

What role is that? Easily ignored slow-poke? It only fulfills its role if something can specifically buff its movement.

[knight_actual]

What role is that? Easily ignored slow-poke? It only fulfills its role if something can specifically buff its movement.

threat 9" against things that cannot charge it is not insignificant.

gold standard: ironfangs are threat 8" when it can't charge - the centurion out-threats ironfangs.

the role is to mess up enemy army from being able to engage normally.

and to liberally apply pow 18 spear

[Reemule]

I really enjoy the Centurion with our speed boosting casters.

Its still the toughest thing we have to field. Well worth the points.

[elwoodblues6389]

What role is that? Easily ignored slow-poke? It only fulfills its role if something can specifically buff its movement.

Considering it runs for eight it isnt that slow. a whole two less inches is not going to set you back that much at all if any. I never have had a problem with it.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

threat 9" against things that cannot charge it is not insignificant.

gold standard: ironfangs are threat 8" when it can't charge - the centurion out-threats ironfangs.

the role is to mess up enemy army from being able to engage normally.

and to liberally apply pow 18 spear

This is a good point right here. It bears repeating over and over. Also of note is how that 6" you-shall-not-pass bubble can protect your shooting corp (or Sword Knights if you swing that way).

Will spd 4 hurt in scenarios? Maybe. We have no way to know at this time. What I do know is that it works just fine in "kill the enemy boss" style casual play and can be both fast and a PITA with the right casters.

[Tamwulf]

The 9 point Centurion ensures that people will be taking different warjacks. I really, really hate to compare MK II to MK I, but here we go.

In MK I, you would see every Cygnar list with a Centurion in it, despite it's low SPD and MAT. Every Cygnar player I ever talked to started every list with JWC, Centurion (and later added Squire), then selected a Warcaster, then selected units, and finally other warjacks.

I won't debate the point cost of the Centurion. Too much or too little is immaterial to me. What is important is that the point cost of the Centurion makes people actually consider taking different warjacks. That's a win in my book.

[Mutton]

The 9 point Centurion ensures that people will be taking different warjacks. I really, really hate to compare MK II to MK I, but here we go.

In MK I, you would see every Cygnar list with a Centurion in it, despite it's low SPD and MAT. Every Cygnar player I ever talked to started every list with JWC, Centurion (and later added Squire), then selected a Warcaster, then selected units, and finally other warjacks.

I won't debate the point cost of the Centurion. Too much or too little is immaterial to me. What is important is that the point cost of the Centurion makes people actually consider taking different warjacks. That's a win in my book.

That's a bit illogical; might as well say that the Trencher Cannon being worthless for its points is a good thing then. Did we have a problem of the Cent being undercosted in mk1? Yes. Should that affect it's mk2 pricing, which is basically a new game? No.

[Shinobiwolf1980]

(I'm basically repeating Mutton, so might as well read the next post)
That kind of argument is a little weird if you ask me. You could use that justification to make anything sound really good.

For example:
It's good that the Sentinel is a really average jack. Because it means that we won't see too many of them on the field.

or:
It's good that Kossite Woodsmen don't appear to do anything except die. Because I wouldn't want to see them on every battlefield.

You go on to say that you won't argue the points cost, but use it as evidence for your argument. You don't even seem to consider the issue that maybe almost no one will take it anymore.

People are always going to take whatever is good value. The Centurion needed to be reduced in power, but for its cost its lost too much. On the other hand, hope you like seeing the B13 and Ironclads.

[tophalion]

@ Tamwulf

That was also back when warjacks were expensive, got disabled after 3 systems, a slammed melee jack was basically locked down, the Hammersmith stole the hammers from Chargers with chain attack push, zealots were completely over the top, Bokurs were among the best beat stick light jacks, and Drakhuns were flying though the air.

Back then, the Centurion was our jack that could consistently hold the line against things up to it's point cost. Nothing is more disheartening than seeing something like the Stormclad getting ripped apart by troops like Zealots and McThralls or being locked down by Seneschals or bone chickens. It was undeniably a steal at 113 with most people willing to buy it at an SC's price, but this was also under the same system where the charger was one MK1 point, not MK2 point, cheaper than the Lancer.

The MK2 Cent isn't the MK1 Cent. The biggest change is the Polarity shield is a special action which means it has less time to get into position and you can't use it the turn you want to beat something down. Of secondary note, since the feature was useless against Hordes, is the loss of Electro-Lock.

It does a higher MAT so it's not so useless at taking out more common targets, but this where you start to compare it to others in the fleet. The IC chassis now hits the sweet spot of elite MAT 7. In addition, the POW+Str of other Cygnar heavy off-hand weapons, save the Defender, have increased significantly in comparison. The IC and SC now hit at POW 14, the HS at a beefy POW 17, and the Thead Pow 16 compared to the Cent's POW 13 shieldbash. It increased from Pow 12, but it's also gotten left behind.

In short, the Cent has gotten weaker overall while the others have gotten stronger making it dramatically less of an auto-include, moreso than the 9 pt cost imho.

[captainspud]

The Cent has performed very well for me throughout my Mk.II testing. You're all welcome to toss yours in the dustbin, but mine will continue to hit the board for the foreseeable future.

[tophalion]

Not tossing my two away, especially not after I went through that effort to give em actual spears. They are too sexy looking just to toss. Just debating that even at 8pts, in his current form, the Cent is far from an auto-include.

[Shinobiwolf1980]

I think 8 points would actually be a fair point cost for the Centurion. Because it does hit hard and if you do crit, you get automatic hits.

[phreaker187]

I really enjoy the Centurion with our speed boosting casters.

Its still the toughest thing we have to field. Well worth the points.

I think with either Nemo you'd be in good shape, that SPD 4 is really tough to deal with.

Same thing goes with the hammersmith though low SPD, no reach, but in armies that can buff it's speed it's a killing machine.

[ArmoryDave]

I've never thought the Centurion was out in the first place, so seeing how he can be even more advantageous against Hordes is another boon to an already great warjack.

[Arkady]

The only problem with the Centurion is that he has to surrender all offense and mobility to activate the shield. He's only a point too expensive, no big deal.

[69Lazarus]

I think as long as you have a selection of Casters that make a Jack (unit or whatever) "worth it's points" it is a successfull model. If it is always worth it's points in becomes more of an autoinclude.

Any caster that helps with movement makes the Cent good and we have several. I regularly use him with either version of Haley and I do look forward to stuffing ARM 24 at their beasts.


Lazarus.

[Ysthrall]

I wouldn't use the Cen if I was playing a manouvering army (Kraye, although full tilt...) or an assaulting army (EStryker), but for the standard tactic of "Sit back here and shoot you as you come", I still think he's good. Nemos, Haleys, whatever.

That's not a roadblock, thats a motorway roundabout. Go around. Way around.

[knight_actual]

Even in a manuver army, the centurion can still contribute, because it modifies the opposing army's threat range.

[knight_actual]

I've been playing with the centurion a little more these past couple of weeks - mostly under darius. I am coming to the conclusion that this model is worth it's 9 points squarely.

Points of notice:

I have yet to cast full throttle with Darius - at 35, his battle group contains 2 ironclads and the centurion. The presence of so many knockdown powers- boostable mean that boosted to hits has not been an issue. Even when I do start stabbing without KD assist - most heavies at def12... I just roll. 72% is acceptable.

Arm 21, and either fortify, or arc shield is a whole lot more effective than arm 18.

Reach is a very big deal.

Jack hammer means that when the centurion only needs to walk+ jab, I could instead walk, polarity shield, then Darius makes him jab.

I think he IS worth the 9 points even in direct comparison with the Ol'rowdy b/c the polarity shield, and reach gives him functions that cannot be fulfilled by Ol'rowdy.

[Golgothas]

Hmm? What's this? People saying the Centurion is NOT worth its high point cost?

My Sword Knights would beg to differ.

And so would Kraye.

Also, hasn't anyone realized how envious Khador Jacks are when they come face to face with an ARM 24 Centurion? (Centurion loves Arcane shield)

[Spooker]

I guess we really like all of our heavies now!

Remember when the Hammersmith and Stormclad were jokes?
Now we love all of our heavy jacks - and would use all in any of the games.
So did "PP" do a good job or what?

Now we have not seen the Cyclone yet - So I might be a bit premature.


Good discussion.

[Mutton]

Only heavy that isn't worth it's points is the Centurion. It's a point over, but can be useful if you can buff it's movement. It's still not that good, and I'd rather take most any other heavy over it, but you can make it work. Still not going to be in tourny lists.

[withershadow]

Hmm? What's this? People saying the Centurion is NOT worth its high point cost?

My Sword Knights would beg to differ.

And so would Kraye.

Lol, what is that, like a Cygnar's "greatest" hits list? :P

I think the Cent would be worth 9 points if he just gave up initial attacks to activate polarity field, but as it stands he's absolutely definitely worth 8, so being a little top-heavy is not a terrible thing.

[69Lazarus]

Still not going to be in tourny lists.

That's a pretty broad statement.....Considering I've already seen it in several lists that played in tournaments in the last couple of months....

[Dark Fledgling]

The main disadvantage of the Centurion is that it is slow and needs the crit or some other boost to MAT to truely shine (all other heavies but the hammersmith are 7's or 8's). Conversely the advantage it has is the high armor for more survivability and the polarity shield to help secure a cygnar charge hits first.

Lets see which of our casters take fix his disadvantages and capitalize on his advantages! (this will be long)

Stryker: The addition of another Arcane shield means you can afford to put one on your cent. Armor 24 is crazy high, and on feat turn Armor 29? Also earthquake can insure he hits without needing a crit so he can buy more attacks.

eStryker: Positive charge makes him MAT 8 POW 20. Warjack bond gives him a potential 4 dice to hit on his first attack. Crit sustain anyone? Also his reach gives him a really great threat with eStrykers feat.

Haley: Ok, so TB makes polarity shield useless. But -2 Def and the second Arcane shield make him a force to be reckoned with. Also the blitz attack takes advantage of the crit sustain for an auto hit.

eHaley: Telekinesis and Temporal Acceleration. Nuff said.

Caine / eCaine: OK so niether really helps out the cent... But he probably wasnt gonna take a heavy jack anyway.

Nemo: 5 focus and locomotion with disruption field anyone?

eNemo: need I even get into it? You can have a whole front line of no charging, not to mention energizer for speed, and fail safe for super survivability. Oh, and the feat turn.

Darius: He's darius, the cent is a jack.

Siege: No much here, so probably wont make it in over that defender.

Kraye: Full tilt gives an 8" move then shield, or an 11" threat charge with reach on the feat turn, not to mention he counts as heavy Cav and has a higher STR then most of our other heavies for impact attacks.

So, of 11 casters, 3 do not have some way of either overcoming the cents low speed or boosting its survivability. Many of the bonus's that our casters give may work on all of our jacks, but the centurion gets better effect from some bonus's then others.

Being able to get 4 dice on the first attack for a crit against high defense casters with eStryker is a prime example.

Does this mean its the best jack out there? no, but it does it mean it will still certainly see the table and continue to be put into lists? most definitely.

But to finally answer the OP's question, yes. The higher defense in hordes gives greater value to the Centurions crit sustain, its Higher armor benefits it because of hordes general lower power, and the polarity shield helps prevent those extremely maneuverable and fast beasts from hitting your line first.

-DF

[Mutton]

Main issue here is that, yes, these 'casters can help the Cent. But let's face it, those buffs are generally far, far better off on say, a Stormclad or Rowdy or Ironclad or Hammersmith etc etc.

[Golgothas]

Lol, what is that, like a Cygnar's "greatest" hits list? :P

I think the Cent would be worth 9 points if he just gave up initial attacks to activate polarity field, but as it stands he's absolutely definitely worth 8, so being a little top-heavy is not a terrible thing.

Greatest hits with what I put on the table.

As for those who complain that the centurion is slow... He advances 8 inches when he's marshalled by Sword Knights.

Now. Maybe I'm wrong, but, being able to advance 8 inches thanks to Pronto, and still activate the magno-shield or to advance 4 first then charge 7 and use the pseudo focus to either roll 3d6 on the attack roll OR buy an extra attack... Is pretty damn awesome.

[Mutton]

Oh lord, not this again. The math, the statistics, the play experience, it's all been drawn out of show why that isn't a good choice. Please, go to the old boards and look at it before you start the argument all over again.

[halffiend]

Stop bashing our Centy. I still like it, but currently using stormclad because it was TOO EXPENSIVE for what it did in mki. Any caster who can buff its low speed (Nemos) or give a MAT boost (Darius). And its been said in this thread, its tough. Give it an ARM buff and it will hold its ground better than any other jack in our arsenal. Note that an Angelius' penatrating strike is an armor piercing POW 14, and one the most vicious attacks in the game. Against an arcane shielded Centurian its dice minus 1!!! That Angelius is probably going to regret its position soon.