Solo-machine: Not quite dead

[dicegod]

One of the major problems with Mk1, and one of Protectorates strengths was the large number of absolute powerhouse solos. The Drakhun, Vilmon etc.
Whilst the points cost of those models was jacked up so high in relation to warjacks in Mk2 and their hitting power reduced, I thought solo machine was dead.


I was mulling over the TempleCon results once more, and started looking at more "meta" trends of the top 8 than specifically what they took.


Solo machine is not dead. It has manifested itself into utility solos that do so much for their points cost in so many areas that they make a ton of lists, and are often tough as hell to deal with. As such, I thought it would be good to provide a few examples of how to spot these solos, and what some of our own are.


Case in point is the Black 13th - really the only problem with them is Ryans broken * Attack mage storm that lets them deal with any target and help the rest of the army while being tough as hell to kill.
They tick all the boxes.

The warwitch is another. One doesn't need to be a genius to see she will be in 95% of Cryx lists. She makes bone jack assassins very hard to touch by removing disruption and giving them a free focus to run. And she can lock down a heavy on a hit with her melee weapon with a 12" threat. And she kills troopers with a Magic 7 spray that ignores high ARM due to corrosion! Not to mention she is hard to kill with Stealth and ARM13 - even boosted POW7's fall short.

LotF is another. Anti infantry, insane mobility and incredibly tough. And he can put a hurting on jacks with all his tokens.

Tartarus. Carries a debuff, the abilities to generate more troopers and Stealth ARM17 8 wounds is huge.



So the solo's and units I see popping up can buff your army, have a ranged threat or very good charge range. Often they deal with both heavy and (multiple) light targets but it suffices to be very good with one (Mage Hunter Assassin).



The Good

Vassal - tough to kill due to distance and being 15/15 with Iron Sentinal, has a ranged threat with Arcane Bolt for picking off models, and his phenominal * Actions speak for themselves.


Reclaimer - Not so tough to kill. But soul storm, and being very good in melee and allocating focus to 'jacks makes him a top pick in my book. When soul storm went down to 2" I kind of wrote him off but he killed most of a Ferox unit last week. Denial, versatility, buffing power and decent melee power.


Covenant - No offensive power to speak of, but probably the toughest solo to kill in the game. He is a superb 'caster bodyguard and has awesome *actions. His *Actions might not come up in some games but he is worth it just to block charge lanes in many cases. Incredible denial and buffing power.


Seneschal - He has really suprised me in Mk2 as I thought he really sucked for three points. But when I compared him to the criteria, it wasn't so suprising. Slams on large bases can clear low ARM troopers behind, a way to engineer knockdown (like charging your own Covenant in the back and almost guaranteeing KD on the enemy 'caster), ARM17, two high POW weaponmaster attacks, CMD9 commander, and he won't die for scenarios.
He edges out Gravus because Gravus is just too expensive and his melee hit requires a very specific set of conditions.


The Bad

Paladin of the Order of the Wall - Single attack, not that hard to kill in S&M stance, low threat range, power is good but not great. No synergies.


Vilmon - Single attack, not that hard to kill in S&M stance, low-ish threat range, power is good but not great. Has some synergies with
CMD10 commander and granting IW - but really IW is kind of bad in Mk2. He might be worth it if you are taking a pair of Paladins (but why would you be doing that?)


Rhoven - The opposite of the solos I have described. He cannot perform more than one role at once, and the melee power of his unit requires on of the members to die. Not cheap either. Relatively slow.

Gravus - Not particularly hardy, and is too expensive for what he brings to the table.


The Ugly

Allegiant - Haven't played with him, so no comment. I do see a value in fast models that are tricky to kill though. The difference between him and the MHA is that he doesn't have enough of a threat to back up being annoying.




Is any one else seeing similar trends of solos appearing in their lists? Are this "one size fits all" solos a victim of the points system?

[jandrese]

That's a good list, but I'd also take a look at Merc solos to get the whole picture.

Rhupert is worth more than his 2 points IMHO. Saxon Orrik is just downright broken in his current form. Gorman is still useful, albeit somewhat more limited now. Eiryss is Eiryss, as is Epic Eiryss. Anastasia is amazing in scenario play.

The bad merc solos are the ones that just do damage for the most part. Alten and Kell are alright because they fill a hole we don't otherwise have (those accurate shots), but Herne and Jonne are pretty much as waste, as are most of the pirate solos.

As for the Protectorate solos, the Senny is just as squishy as ever, and only getting d3" slams is really lame. The Heirophant and Wracks are pretty similar except that the Heirophant is twice as expensive and you can't use his "focus" for overboosting the powerfield like you can with the Wrack's. His only real advantage is that he doesn't get in the way as much as Wracks tend to, especially on Warcasters with small CTRL areas.

By the way, did yiou ever post your analysis or data anywhere? I'm interested in the lists and trends as well.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

I still take Vilmon and two paladins in almost every list I bring. They have huge potential in scenario play.

[jandrese]

They're cool models, but 7 points is a lot. I personally don't field them much anymore.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

True, but even Vilmon and one Paladin is a good investment. If you're playing in SR2010, that 5 points can be an absolute life saver.

[Bastion5]

I'm With Werecat, in my Reznik list i use Vilmon and a paladin. Hands down, they pay back thier points some how. Last game infact, Good ol' Vilmonster charged a juggernaut and Rammed Censure right down its throat taking out columns 3 and 4 in one go. In My other lists I have Vilmon in at 45 points with all my casters

[dicegod]

Problem is, that's a very good roll.
He needs a 17 on 4d6 to do that, and whilst it isn't out of the question, it isn't common either.

Seneschals are much better at scenario play, as they absolutely will not die the crucial turn you need them. And they put out similar damage to Vilmon.

I don't know about you guys, but my Protectorate is pretty melee based and if I have lost on scenario I am probably doing something wrong, I'll be coming across the table and I could probably deny that zone with my army+caster rather than relying on Vilmon and a Paladin.

[darisus]

I have been playing around with Anastatia alot lately and finding if my opponent strays too close to a board edge she is a fantastic force multiplier, as espionage granting a move and attack can really suprise alot of people. Check my battle report (http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=11757) to see even when my plans fell apart she can still give you a key attack when you need it.

[Necra-Chi]

Dicegod, are you serious about the seneschal? Can you give some context? I used to love them in Mk 1, almost always took a pair, but now they are SO bad. Well to be more accurate they are SO expensive, and when compared with other 3 pointers like the ones you've already mentioned, are totally outclassed. I mean I would rather pay one more point for Rhoven in almost all situations I can think of. The seneschal simply costs too much for too little. I can get reliable slams elsewhere,a nd if I just want beatdown, I can get that anywhere. The benefit for scenarios is theoretical at best. My experience of SR2010 is that the challenge is to win by scenario, not to prevent loss.

I'd only take him if a kreoss tier gave me one for free or made him 2 pts or something.

I agree with what you've said about what makes a great solo. There's some great ones out there, particularly in retribution and cryx, and many lynchpin support solos. I started a thread called "flame jet bait" about popular models at templecon top 8 and many were solos. I see it as essential that every list have ways of efficiently removing these models from a distance. Usuaully requires stealth negation, AOEs are often not the answer, making Rhoven even more important.

[jandrese]

Compared to other 3 pointers he's overcosted?

Well, lets run that comparision, shall we?

Senny: The base of our comparision
Vilmon: A bit tougher to kill, but not as good at holding scenario objectives. Only one attack and no slam. The attack is more accurate and more powerful, but the senny should come out ahead most of the time. Winner: Senny
Sunburst: With the template and the RNG now, it's a pretty clear winner over a Senny in my book.
pEiryss: Much harder to kill, but her damage output is in a completely different niche. Stlll, Disruptor Bolt tends to make her outclass the Senny in my book.
eEiryss: The protectorate is blessed with a relatively large amount of in-faction upkeep cancelling, but other than pEiryss we don't have any disruption, and Disruption is one of the best status effects in Mk II. I tend to have her edging out the Senny, but only barely.
Herne & Jonne: I don't really need more templates. Senny is a clear winner. I am surprised I don't see this duo on the opposite side of the table more often though, POW 7 blasts are not bad and they're pretty accurate and much harder to kill than most weapon crews.

So the Senny is somewhere around the middle of the pack. Not that bad really.

[Necra-Chi]

I meant in other factions. All of our combat solos suck. (IMO)

[PG_Fellio]

I'll usually bring a Paladin and Vilmon, or two Seneschals.
I like the combat solos, but I play a rather heavy solo list.

My list usually looks something like: Feora, 2x Vassal, (2x Combat Solos), Avatar, Vanquisher or Castigator, KE or Bastions, Choir.
Fill in the rest of the points with whatever I feel like taking.

I like support solos, but with Feora, I usually only bring the two Vassals. With Testament, I usually spend a bit more, taking Rhupert, Heirophant.

[Razhem]

I meant in other factions. All of our combat solos suck. (IMO)

Pretty much the gist of it. I have used an alligient once and that's it when it comes to our melee solos. I just can't justify 2 or 3 points for the other guys when 8 points have already gone to support.

[mike07]

Second the Vilmon + Pally notion. Being able to cycle between SM and IW they are really incredibly survivable. Nothing better than walking into combat with a heavy 'jack and Impervious Walling. Tons of other applications, as have been mentioned.

[Justicator]

I highly disagree with dicegod on the PoW & Vilmon

I take them all the time and they always get the job done. Sure they only swing once each, but they hit hard and with their high MAT's (which is something we all too often lack) they get the job done. I view them slightly more as fielding a 7 point focus free light jack.

They are great in a bait and switch offensive role. Since they hit very hard and have a good solid charge range they are an undeniable threat to the enemy. So I offer them a choice, take on my Pallies ... which if set up right will leave them in an uncomfortable position for the rest of my battlegroup ... or ignore them and risk suffering their wrath.

With 4D damage on a charge even Khador heavies have to take them serious.

Plus as other have pointed out they are extremely survivable.

If you don't mind dropping spells on solos, there are some really fun things you can do with Vilmon. Kreoss giving him defenders ward for example.
---

The Monk - I've only played him once so far, but was very pleased with the result in using him in a flanking roll. His incredible speed and defense makes him an interesting threat to your enemies solos and war-caster. Granted he's nothing like he used to be, but I feel once I really relearn him, I'll be very happy with him.

---

Are this "one size fits all" solos a victim of the points system?

I do however agree with this ... I've seen some 2 points solo and 3 point solo and have definitely questioned the PP point formula.
Cryx's new solo is kind of case in point. Even when you isolate it to just in-faction, you see her vs. their 3 point pistol-wraiths and you have to ask *** is going on with that point formula.... let alone comparing her to the likes of the Senny.

[Poet]

Seneschal as a covenant delivery system? funny.

[Seon]

Paladins and Gravus are amazing :O
they have never once let me down
gravus is our fastest model which counts for alot. even running 16inches to engage a gunline is worth it IMO anyway. though i tend to play KE heavy armies so.. works for me

Vilmon and paladins. If your opponent is unlucky enough to take very little magic power. then hes got a major problem dealing with these guys.

and Seneschal is still knocked down when they box him up. reducing his output in the next turn. so unless you take the covenant or Gravus, he will be crawling around the battlefield assuming he survives lol.

[dicegod]

Alright. The seneschal many times beats out vilmon on damage. He can generate knockdown especially on your own models like zealots and the covenant.

He is more survivable than rhoven and co as well as vilmon as he is always ARM17 otherwise he won't die if they attack him first and troops after. He lacks threat range but he works well mixed in with a unit of infantry like TFG so they can soak the charge and he can deal to heavies.

The slam can break an arm lock on my avatar, clear a charge lane, or engineer knock down on a light so I can shoot it.


He's at the lower end of the scale, but he's still solid in my opinion.

[paradox]

Gravus has been great for me so far. Definitely in my Good list. Worth every point and more with Vengers.

[Soylent]

Dicegod, are you serious about the seneschal? Can you give some context? I used to love them in Mk 1, almost always took a pair, but now they are SO bad. Well to be more accurate they are SO expensive, and when compared with other 3 pointers like the ones you've already mentioned, are totally outclassed. I mean I would rather pay one more point for Rhoven in almost all situations I can think of. The seneschal simply costs too much for too little. I can get reliable slams elsewhere,a nd if I just want beatdown, I can get that anywhere. The benefit for scenarios is theoretical at best. My experience of SR2010 is that the challenge is to win by scenario, not to prevent loss.

I'd only take him if a kreoss tier gave me one for free or made him 2 pts or something.

I agree with what you've said about what makes a great solo. There's some great ones out there, particularly in retribution and cryx, and many lynchpin support solos. I started a thread called "flame jet bait" about popular models at templecon top 8 and many were solos. I see it as essential that every list have ways of efficiently removing these models from a distance. Usuaully requires stealth negation, AOEs are often not the answer, making Rhoven even more important.

Play a few games in a row with Seneschal(s), I think you may find yourself surprised. I sounded just like you a little over a month ago but I thought I'd get a fair number of games with him so my words carried more weight. Needless to say I was wrong. If you're like me, a lot of talking won't do to much but table time with him will. Give him a week or two of your time.




Allegiant. Another one that has surpised me. He's an interesting model that it's hard to put into words. He's not a powerhouse but two P&S9 weapon master attacks is respectable. With a 10" threat range he's a decent killing machine for taking out support and has a fairly easy time getting there. Shifting Wind Stance is an interesting ability you'll need to play with to truely appreciate. SPD7 helps get up the board when using it and if you use it in a charge lane then your opponent will want to get rid of it. That is if you're not worried about AoEs. I've had it engage a unit of IFP only to have them miss and then it walked away to stand in front of a Juggernaut, preventing it's charge...and there have been quite a few instances like that. So I've some respect for the Allegiant.

Gravus. I like him but he does require an investment of Exemplar models. If you're taking KE, Vengers or EE(though you have to be careful about Self Sacrifice) then he's worth considering but him alone or with slower units of Bastions or Cinerators then I'd don't think he's worth it.

Paladins/Vilmon. I've played them and I personally don't like them.

[jandrese]

My biggest problem with Gravus is his price. A unit of KE or Daughters or KEE or even min Bastions start to look good when you've got 5 points handy, especially since he's not very tough and on a big base.

[Soylent]

I agree with you there. I don't think I've considered Gravus outside of 50+ pt games. Gravus or a unit of Daughters/KE, usually I take the unit. He does have an impressive threat range and is fairly survivable though.

[therajai]

Vilmon + pallies are still very good. There job has just changed dramatically. There about moving slowly up the field choosing stances as they advance. I also like having a pally on one of my squishy casters like sevvy. I find them to be either great distractions due to being a significant threat or protecting a back field caster. I put them in the same category as McThralls; they are there to absorb my opponents resources for a turn or 2 while I get what I need set up. I however never bring all 3 unless it is a tourney. Combine with the daughters there is no point on the board you can't contest.

[Soylent]

Vilmon + pallies are still very good. There job has just changed dramatically. There about moving slowly up the field choosing stances as they advance. I also like having a pally on one of my squishy casters like sevvy. I find them to be either great distractions due to being a significant threat or protecting a back field caster. I put them in the same category as McThralls; they are there to absorb my opponents resources for a turn or 2 while I get what I need set up. I however never bring all 3 unless it is a tourney. Combine with the daughters there is no point on the board you can't contest.

I disagree with the contesting. ARM21 sounds impressive but when backed by 5 wounds it's nothing to write home about, especially when I can park a jack or unit or Eiryss or Anastasia in a zone just as easily or easier. I won't say they are useless as I've gotten some milage out of them but I can safely say I've gotten less milage out of them than any other solo I've taken. Some like them and get good use out of them but for me they are not condusive to my playstyle.

[Soulblighter]

I agree with your list for the most part except I definitely dont think the Seneschal belongs in the "good" category. The Seneschal is on the very low end of what 3 points buys when it comes to solos (see other 3 point solos like LotF). The Seneschal mightve been worth 3 points if restoration was remotely useful. Whats the point of restoration when the opponent can just kill the Seneschal last? I dont find the chain-attack to be all that useful or reliable either now that its only 1d3" and jacks can shake off. I really dont think the Seneschal is that good and Id much rather spend an extra point for a light warjack. A light warjack is much harder to kill, has potential to hit harder with focus, and will benefit greatly from the support models im likely to have in my list anyway.

[jandrese]

To me, the point of Restoration is to force your opponent to wait until he's armored up before attacking.

Downside: ARM 17 isn't all that tough with 5 wounds.

There's always the chance that they'll whiff with that attack they held back for the Senny. It doesn't happen very often, but it can be nice when it does.

Also, Restoration means you get to hold a scenario point for one extra turn and there is very little your opponent can do about it (maybe a throw?).

And he's a better buy than Vilmon IMHO. If I'm going to pay 3 points for a beatstick solo, I'd at least like them to be a good beatstick. Losing the second attack just nerfed Vilmon's damage output too much.

[Exemplar's_Gaze]

I love and use all of our solos.

There is a place for them all.

I only get irritated when I see Tartarus across the field outperforming Vilmon in melee. I know he costs one more than Vilmon, but that is still too cheap.

[Soylent]

I agree with your list for the most part except I definitely dont think the Seneschal belongs in the "good" category. The Seneschal is on the very low end of what 3 points buys when it comes to solos (see other 3 point solos like LotF). The Seneschal mightve been worth 3 points if restoration was remotely useful. Whats the point of restoration when the opponent can just kill the Seneschal last? I dont find the chain-attack to be all that useful or reliable either now that its only 1d3" and jacks can shake off. I really dont think the Seneschal is that good and Id much rather spend an extra point for a light warjack. A light warjack is much harder to kill, has potential to hit harder with focus, and will benefit greatly from the support models im likely to have in my list anyway.

Killing the Seneschal last is easier said than done and if they do it then they have likely left other components of my army alone. The chain attack may not be as good but it's a third weapon master attack that knocks down. It will do slightly less damage than a Devish with 3 focus and Battle Hymn but will do more than a Dervish with 2, which by the way is a decent portion of focus for any caster outside of Amon and eFeora.

Like I said. Play one or two in your lists for two weeks and then follow up with an assessment.

[BanzaiZAP]

Might as well chime in here!

Seneschal : Not a "bad" model in my opinion, but doesn't make it into many of my lists. I'll have to try him more.

Allegiant : I think he really performs well, provided you use him properly. He should NEVER be going up against anything that can boost attack rolls, or any AOE's. May sound like a tall order, but I've had him tie up or annihilate infantry units. Without a boost, hitting DEF 17 is very difficult, and when you miss he moves away, or moves right up into the unit's back arc, or otherwise ruins their plans. Two weaponmaster attacks aren't all that shabby, and I've gotten the caster kill in with this guy on a 10.5" charge. For two points, And now with Tough, he's a great solo that needs to be carefully managed.

Darth Vilmon and Pals : While they do tend to die early for me, and I've only ever been able to get them into melee a couple of times, it's usually a big enough distraction to delay the opponent for a turn. If I have an extra turn to get my army into attack position, its worth it.

Gravus : Absolutely fantastic with enough Exemplar souls around. Not worth it on his own. With a couple tokens, however, I've had him completely wreck face, wiping out units by hmiself (extra attacks), dispelling upkeeps, or bringing down jacks (extra boosting), all the while keeping my surviving Knights on their feet. Two squads of KE with Gravus between them is a major threat. He is one of our only models that can get 4d6 damage WITHOUT charging! Five points may seem like a lot (especially at low-point battles) but I think he brings enough to the table to make it worthwhile.

Support Solos (Reclaimer, Vassal, Heirophant) Since we mostly play 35 pt games, I try to keep my support to a minimum. Min Choir and one Vassal are the usuals for me, but I occaisionally drop in the Heiro or Wracks if there are enough points. Reclaimer dies way too easily for me (lots of shooty opponents) but I like the heirophant's abilities. We'll see what the Menofixer brings.

I must admit, I don't own a Covenant, and still don't feel like I need one.

Merc solos can help: Rhupert, Eiryss and Gorman all find their way into many lists of mine.

As far as Solo-Machine goes, I have run several solo-heavy lists, and always find them to be great fun. Not always the most effective army, but Sevvy and the Seven Samurai (for example) are simply loads of entertainment, and that's really what I play for. Winning is fun, but The Game is the reason for being there.

[dicegod]

Remember the Seneschal gets weapon master on his chain attack as well.
That's three P+S13 weaponmaster attacks, which is damn nice at MAT8.

I'm getting more use out of commander now that I'm not taking the UA with my TFG.


Something else about the Reclaimer - you can get around shake effects by allocating one from the caster and have him shake the knockdown/stationary then put the full boat of focus on him from the Reclaimer. Especially useful if we get a power booster solo.

[JRedbeard]

I apologize for injecting my noobness into this thread of information, but just wanted to say that Solomachine is alive and well in my head... The cool solos were one of the things drawing me to this game.

That is all. /back to the real info.

[Soylent]

Something else about the Reclaimer - you can get around shake effects by allocating one from the caster and have him shake the knockdown/stationary then put the full boat of focus on him from the Reclaimer. Especially useful if we get a power booster solo.

Very nice.

[Marauder]

I'm really loving the reclaimer. Not only is he a fantastic jack buffer, but if need be, he really can lay out the pain in melee. Soulstorm is gravy - and unlike the HR/ToM he can hold onto a soul token and keep it up 24/7.

I used him recently with Sevy (and some wracks just to say I "used" 12 focus in a turn). I cast Vision on him, and he basically lived the whole game. Vision is a great buff for any solo. Usually people get opportunities to kill solos and take them - with vision up they need to make more of an effort, and that usually means they pass them up for something else. Anyway, vision would work on any of our solos - just thought I'd point it out (so much better now then when you could only have it on Sevy himself).

[dicegod]

I prefer Vision on Blessing or the Avatar

[Marauder]

I prefer Vision on Blessing or the Avatar

Ya, who needs solos when you have an invincible Avatar!

The only issue I can see putting it on a large model is more things can draw LOS to it, and so it can be more easily removed with say a single shot. You want to make sure Vision either stops them from attacking or sucks up a good hit. With all the jack support, we can certainly work that (safe passage/ward) on a jack - I just think Vision is also cool for little solos that can hide away and already present fewer opportunities for the enemy to kill them.

[Lanz]

I still boggle at people who don't like paladins. Some 'jacks hardly hit as hard on a charge as a paladin does. Paladins always get top pick for a 2point slot when the essentials are already in the list. They are crazy-fast for heavy infantry, S&M can let them survive a fair deal of punishment, usually they aren't one-shottable outside of like a pow/PS 17 attack, and with vilmon they are just amazing. So many times I've been able to send a lone paladin with Impervious up against a jack/beast that doesn't have magical weapons, and either hold it there, or force the enemy warlock/warcaster to deal with it personally.

I buddy them up with my melee 'jacks to provide an extra jack-grade attack.

Vilmon is fantastic for his cost too. +1MAT, +1PS, and reach give him tremendous destructive potential, then ontop of that he gets a second stance and gives it to the other paladins. Easily worth 1 point with other paladins around, and usually worth the point even without. Vilmon's more survivable than a Seneschal(who only survives if your opponent kills the seneschal first, then a bunch of exemplar), and while the seneschal's chain attack is indeed fantastic, it usually won't make up for the +2.5" extra threat reach Vilmon has, and his potential to actually survive more than a turn after he engages when applied against the right targets.

I think 3 points for something that slams a target then dies isn't really all that practical. Paladins can be played defensively very well, and run around as juggernauts that the enemy has to put a serious commited attack to in order to drop them.

[Nargacuga]

I've had great results with Senny in my games.

Granted, the limited slam distance hurts a bit but its the KD and the high damage that makes him shine.

2 POW 13 Weaponmaster attacks is nothing to sneeze over and his chain attack can do quite a few nifty things against heavy jacks. I like using him to slam a heavy away from one of my jacks so that it can charge something else.

One interesting thing I've done is to run a Senny (or 2 even) up in front of my line within charge distance of my opponent's troops. Then use the no KD passage from the Covenant to keep him standing if they kill him. This forces some very difficult decisions for your opponent as there is no way to kill him in one turn or to charge past him, and anything that attempts to do so will end up taking a chrage by your troops next turn.

I almost always bring Senny with Harby, Testament, HR, and pretty often with pSevvy as well.

[Soylent]

I still boggle at people who don't like paladins. Some 'jacks hardly hit as hard on a charge as a paladin does. Paladins always get top pick for a 2point slot when the essentials are already in the list. They are crazy-fast for heavy infantry, S&M can let them survive a fair deal of punishment, usually they aren't one-shottable outside of like a pow/PS 17 attack, and with vilmon they are just amazing. So many times I've been able to send a lone paladin with Impervious up against a jack/beast that doesn't have magical weapons, and either hold it there, or force the enemy warlock/warcaster to deal with it personally.

I buddy them up with my melee 'jacks to provide an extra jack-grade attack.

Vilmon is fantastic for his cost too. +1MAT, +1PS, and reach give him tremendous destructive potential, then ontop of that he gets a second stance and gives it to the other paladins. Easily worth 1 point with other paladins around, and usually worth the point even without. Vilmon's more survivable than a Seneschal(who only survives if your opponent kills the seneschal first, then a bunch of exemplar), and while the seneschal's chain attack is indeed fantastic, it usually won't make up for the +2.5" extra threat reach Vilmon has, and his potential to actually survive more than a turn after he engages when applied against the right targets.

I think 3 points for something that slams a target then dies isn't really all that practical. Paladins can be played defensively very well, and run around as juggernauts that the enemy has to put a serious commited attack to in order to drop them.

Paladin more survivable than a Seneschal? Play Seneschals a bit please. Where you find it boggling to not like a Paladin, I on the other hand find it boggling that people think it's better than the Seneschal. While I didn't always like the Seneschal, because I had only played it two games, I liked it much better than the Paladin who I've played over a dozen.

Also the Seneschal heals when a friendly living faction model dies in it's CMD range not just Exemplar models.

[Fool Injected]

MK2 jacks have no doubt become more important. I felt like solo machine was alive and well towards the end of MK1. I think solo machine is a carry over and not something new.

[Lanz]

Paladin more survivable than a Seneschal? Play Seneschals a bit please. Where you find it boggling to not like a Paladin, I on the other hand find it boggling that people think it's better than the Seneschal. While I didn't always like the Seneschal, because I had only played it two games, I liked it much better than the Paladin who I've played over a dozen.

Also the Seneschal heals when a friendly living faction model dies in it's CMD range not just Exemplar models.

I could give it another few rounds, but the times I've tried it it was pretty easy to shut down. Point is, the way you play a paladin will dictate how it survives, but how a seneschal survives instead depends on your opponent. What's more, a Seneschal can be killed as part of a normal battleplan, as just another model, but a Paladin requires a commited heavy anti-armor attack to take it down. I don't like to leave such things in my enemy's hands and hope they play in my favor. A paladin can be pitted against things that will have a very difficult time taking it down, whereas anything can take down a Seneschal, who instead can heal, but only if your opponent kills him, then kill something within his command range. Usually in a posistion where an opponent could both kill a Seneschal, and some infantry, they'd kill the infantry first, so the Seneschal couldn't heal. There are only a handful of cases where the seneschal would need to die first(such as locking himself in combat against a shooting model/unit), but for the most part, a Seneschal can be dropped afterwards.

A paladin will usually take at least two shots to bring down. A Seneshal is easy to put down, and if circumstances are met, it'll get back up again. I generally wouldn't expect a paladin to survive a sustained assault, but it usually won't die to a single direct hit unless it's from something very big and mean(in which case that big mean whatever is attacking a paladin instead of my 'jacks). In S&M a POW 26 hit is needed to kill a paladin outright, only certain things can pull that off with any reliable efficiancy, and the things that can, are usually directed at 'jacks, so if they are beating on a paladin, then I'm happy with my 'jacks moving unhindered.

Ultimately its more list-dependant. I favor 'jacks over infantry, and a paladin complements warjacks very well. It can take and deliver damage like they do, and doesn't need anything else to do it's job. I see a Seneschal more like an independant unit attachment, like a MK1 Alexia. He has to work alongside a unit to be effective, and is pretty effective when he does, wheras the paladin doesn't really care.