why not change the krielstone from the ground up?

[rexaroo]

hey all.

everyone seems to be so into grumbling that we are tied to the kreilstone so why not change it drastically?

why not just raise the whole factions armor by 2 points and then just write the krielstone as a toolbox of interesting things (like the scribestone elder does)?

i'm serious here. the armor wouldnt be much (if any) better than kador.

so why not?

[Sevwall]

Heh. Base DEF 17 kriel warriors. Right.....

[rexaroo]

i said raise armor, not defense.

and another idea would be to use the stone as a fury sucking bank. let it suck fury from our beasts and store/ use it later (without the warlock having to put it in the bank),

[ozmo]

What about +1 ARM, not as good as the KSB, but always on without spending the points and making sure your in the aura.
Or make it choir like, anyone 3" from the bearer or one of the guys benefits...

[rydiafan]

Just let the dang thing leach and/or reave.

[i_like_tool]

Just let the dang thing leach and/or reave.

And be weapon masters that are always stealth'd and all aoe's auto deviate away too!!! I'm serious....


Seriously though, Mk II gave PP the chance to radically rebuild it from the ground up. it didn't happen. Hopefully, with enough feedback, it can change some. I would LOVE a pulse and not an aura effect. Let us cast it and charge away from it.....

[Toothy]

I would prefer that line 2 of Protective Aura read, "For one round, while a unit has a member within 8" of the Krielstone Bearer, Friendly Faction models gain +2 Arm."

Encourages less bricking and makes the radius standard. I just dislike the idea of the radius being determined by the resource that activates it.

I don't really mind the way it works now, but I think it could be a smoother mechanic. It requires some amount of upkeep by warlocks, but I would prefer if it just took the fury at turn one. Otherwise, keep the range decent and make it so it can only hold 1 fury.

[huntroll]

Give the Auras pulse effect, fixed range and make it anytime during its activation. Also, change the anti-incorporeal, anti-stealth aura to "affected Trollblood models can attack models with Stealth and Incorporeal"... And then I'll be a happy troll.

Seeing what the Tyrant Commander or Paingivers can do, I think it's not too much to ask for.

[i_like_tool]

Seeing what the paingivers can do.

I want them......lol. Hate seeing my friends Paingivers just ease that pain away while I stare at mine going DAMMIT! STOP FRENZYING!!

[JBFlanz]

In my past game, the KSB has been holding down the fort pretty well. The distance could maybe use a boost, but other than that the aura is pretty sweet. A lot of people are pretty jealous of it...

[Vineuk]

Really guys considering when PP work out the stats on our models / units they do so considering them fully buffed. So basically that +2 arm is taken into account every time. If the stone was changed to just buff like the SSE. Then there really is no reason we shouldn't be given at least +1 more Arm as standard on our models.

So if you take into consdieration what I said above. When ever you play your warband with out the KBS. Your playing at a disadvantage because we don't have that +2 Arms they worked our stats out on.

I would much prefer PP to rework the KBS to do some other form of buffing to our units so it wasn't a unit you had to take most games. It would also see the brick played a lot less. A big reason for playing the brick is due to the auro range.

[Frekke]

Well i don't like the Krielstone too .. other Faction have Defenders Ward for 3 Fury and it's an Upkeep ...so for us to make the Krielstone effective we have to toss in how many Fury ? 4-7 ? I don't like the Krielstone ..
Also whats the highest Arm we can get to ?
20 .. nothing more .. its just plain stupid 20 ..
Yesterday i was facing Cygnar with a arm 24 Cent ..
I really hate it my mauler cost the same now.
If I had the chance to Change the Krielstone id think i would make it an ARC NODE ... i mean cm`on we don'T have such Impressiv Spelllist that we would get the hyper assasins with that ..
For the Krielsone Elder I'd say ... *Action to increase your Control area.
With that in mind and the fact that we are to get hit first in meele or at range we would surely need to get a bit better Spelllist on our Locks.
Well Borkas Spelllist ist just crap ..mosh pit ok ... but the rest ? ... stupid .
I want defenders ward or Occultation or Deflection
bah i am just dissapointed from my trolls

[LordGrimlok]

The problem I have is that the range of the Aura is dependent on how much fury is on it. Plus, It decreases more and more as I use it, so that the aura is never at its maximum range. This reinforces the Brick problem which I don't always want to do.

I played Madrack last night, and hate the fact that his spells are all 3 fury. My opponent was legion, and had first turn. On my turn, I cast sure foot and can only dump 2 focus onto the krielstone. So when I finally activate the Stone, I can have be awesome 5" from it to benefit from the aura. Whoopidee doo. Sure, I can always not activate the aura that turn. I can just upkeep the surefoot next turn and dump Madrak's fury (from the beasts) into it. But in the meantime I'm having the Carnivean and Typhon breathing down my neck while worrying about the stupid thing.

This is nothing new with the stone. I love the idea of a pulse. As a PoM player, the fact that the Choir and Vassal's actions are pulses gives my Jacks room for movement. This decreases the chances of problems with order of activation when things start to clog up.

Also, if we HAVE to pay for fury, why not let us leach it from the beasts? I'd much rather not have to do it overall, but if we did, this would help with fury management, too.

[Patuljak]

I think the ability to leach even 1 Fury per turn off of beasts with the KSB would help us and it greatly. Since the Warlocks that make use of the KSB are low Fury anyway it would enable them to run more beasts, the KSB would be easier to fill up, and it wouldn't really be Fury managment as such since you're only getting rid of one (since PP stated that we aren't getting direct Fury managment never ever EVER).

[Turtle]

Perhaps two different *Actions? One to use the aura, and one to pull a single fury?

Only problem is, this makes the KSB way too auto-include in lists, better to separate the abilities into a new unit.

Considering how the Warmachine armies are getting new stuff in their forcebooks, I wouldn't be surprised to see new Trollblood units come next year that fill in gaps left by Mk2.

I suspect we'll see a Soothsayer or Troll Whisperer :P solo in the next batch of models.

[Writer@Large]

I really like the "Beast Soothing" idea--allow the stone to pull 1 Fury per round off of beasts, no more than one Fury per beast, up to a maximum.

Or, let the Warlock store a certain amount of Fury per round in the stone IN ADDITION TO what he leaches for himself.

Something, anything, to make the stone effective as a Fury management tool, instead of just a savings account that Warlocks pay into in RD1, so they can withdraw in RD4. Otherwise, might as well change its name to the Krielsatone Christmas Club.

--W@L

[Writer@Large]

Ooorrrrrr ...

What if we removed warlocks from the equation altogether? What if the KSB ability looked like this ...

Fury Vault - While this model is within command range of a friendly warbeast, this model can leach 1 fury point from it during your
Control Phase. This model can have up to 1 fury point on it for each model currently in this unit. When a model in this unit is
destroyed or removed from play, remove fury points from this model in excess of the number of models remaining in the unit. If
this model is destroyed and replaced by a Grunt in its unit, place its fury points on the new Leader.

IOW just eliminate the Warlock aspect from it. Its current role is as a savings account--it's there to give the Warlock one more round of Fury in the end--but because of the way most players play it, that never happens anyway; instead, it gets filled up in RD1 and 2, so it can keep making Auras.

Instead, let it be a true Fury Management system, and just stop the whole Warlock Leaching thing. It can hold up to a certain amount of Fury, and can leach up to a certain amount of fury. HOWEVER, since it can only spend 1 Fury a round, it will eventually get "full"--that is, it's helpful, but not gamebreaking. One cam leach early to get maximum Aura radius, but run out of management late game, or one can keep the stone low early game and really leach when it counts. It would be a trade-off.

You could also adda limited Warlock leach--say, one point per activation--to help "clear the stone."

Anyway, just thinking.

--W@L

[Soylent]

Well i don't like the Krielstone too ..

Can I have yours then? I'm fond of them and could use a second in a two caster game.

[Sevwall]

The lead developers have stated, in so many words, that we are not getting fury management.

Please stop discussing it. Focus on other ways to make our faction better.

Remember when Cryx wanted a 3 point arcnode, and it was said to them that it wasn't going to happen? Remember all the whining? Remember what happened in the end?

[DragonWolf]

Give the Auras pulse effect, fixed range and make it anytime during its activation. Also, change the anti-incorporeal, anti-stealth aura to "affected Trollblood models can attack models with Stealth and Incorporeal"... And then I'll be a happy troll.

Seeing what the Tyrant Commander or Paingivers can do, I think it's not too much to ask for.

The above is right on the mark. I'd also add that the Elder can leach fury.

[Tweak]

I would love to see our KSB get a pulse like the choir. Heck just copy the way the choir works right now, each individual model in the KSB does it to one unit/model and suddenly the need to brick within eleven inches is gone. That would be an ideal fix for that unit while not giving us anything even remotely close to fury management.

[bashamer]

If they want to make the KSB as an auto include, I just want it to be 3 points for the decked out version and 2 points for the basic version. Same as the Choirs, Mechanics, paingivers, etc.

5 points for a designed auto include is really damn steep. And I know it boosts both troops and jacks, but damnt this thing is expensive.

It takes 7 fury and one fury a turn to keep going. It is SPD 5, you can remove the buff by killing models in the unit, anything that removes fury neuters this thing.

[General Nemo]

hey all.

everyone seems to be so into grumbling that we are tied to the kreilstone so why not change it drastically?

why not just raise the whole factions armor by 2 points and then just write the krielstone as a toolbox of interesting things (like the scribestone elder does)?

i'm serious here. the armor wouldnt be much (if any) better than kador.

so why not?

Because it is their game and it will work how they want it to work.

[kakita]

and i think that is much too much to ask. Changingfrom aura to pulse and possibly a fixed range is moooore than enough. (maybe too much?)

[Writer@Large]

Remember when Cryx wanted a 3 point arcnode, and it was said to them that it wasn't going to happen? Remember all the whining? Remember what happened in the end?

They gave Cryx another expensive, useless melee node, just to rub salt in the wound?

--W@L

[Cambeul]

They gave Cryx another expensive, useless melee node, just to rub salt in the wound?

--W@L

Zing...

Actually the KSB only effecting one unit at a time may not be such a bad thing. Since people are sick of bricking up with Trolls in the first place, why force them to do it with a model that covers a area leaving half a unit with out benefits (KW's)

[theummhmmguy]

I'm with Sevwall on this one folks, we have better things to talk about for MKII than something that is the way they already want it to be.

[Goldstep]

Because it is their game and it will work how they want it to work.

Give that man a cookie! And a goldfish!

But they are aware that they have to sell their game to keep employed. And that the game sells better when it works.
And that some people cannot be pleased.

The key is that some people can be. Those people need to rationally sit down and make real progress towards explaining the issue. Such as follows:

"Cryx player who always wanted to play Trolls but says that he can't see handicapping himself set up a list to show how Trolls react to stealth and Incorporeal without telling me. He read my whining on the boards, for which I am sorry, and made this list.
Army Points: 35, Witches, Blackbane, Bane Thralls and Tartarus, 2 Pistol wraithes, Defiler, Withershadow, and 3 Machine Wraithes... just to mock me.
Thanks to Occultation, the only models in this list that aren't stealth or incorporeal was the defiler, consistently, behind a cloud.
Since I could not attack beyond 5 inches with the Pygs, I did not advance them very far... they were placed flanking my army, as they could not block line of sight for shooting.
Simply, with the range and power of Sygian Abyss, and the inability to attack back through the cloud effect or incorporeal... it was a blood bath.
Perfect conjunction and a Focus of 9 meant that Witches could run the jack, move the cloud, and still cast Stygian Abyss 3 times. Meanwhile with all the Incorporeals running to flank and the banes charging up the middle, everyone agreed that I had to brick harder to be able to protect from all sides.
One tune of posturing, one of needleing, and one of attack, left the trolls nearly dead and the Cryx invigorated... Scattergunners had moved slightly forward to reach banes who had parked about 9 inches off, which means the banes could have charged the next turn. Sprays needed 7's to hit and 8's for tartarus, but below avrage rolls meant few casualties -- and only 6 damage to tartarus. Madrak also killed one machine wrath.. which was all he could reach even after the impaler used his animus on Madrak. The response meant that because of the bunching up that was needed to attack the banes Tartarus was able to start by cursing the Scattergunners, charging and using Thresher to create 2 more banes (2 of 4 attacked made the tough roll) and the 8 banes who charged easily killed or knocked down the rest of the guns. Blackbane's raiders charged the Kriels. Those who survived due to stone forged were not knocked down due to the standard, but the auto-fire still killed them next turn. Pistol Wraithes death chilled the beasts, witches cleared a hole for the defiler, and the defiler sprayed down the stones scribes and one of the Machine wraithes even charged Madrak... failing to hit, but making the point clearly enough. We noted as a pair of players that I should have used the no continuous effects aura instead of the the anti stealth and decided that the game was over.
We agreed that we didn't know how to fix it, but it was a one sided fight and he never failed to hurt with a damage roll except for one shot on the blitzer who did nothing but rile all game... In part because the goal was to test the stealth issue, we decided that the feedback was really only useful for saying that trolls have to bring a particualr list to face stealth an incorporeal.
Madrak, Blitzer, Impaler, KSB MAX+UA, KW MAX+UA, SG MAX, Bush MIN is not that list."


It makes it clear that the list was a bad match-up, that I did make mistakes as a general, but that Trolls don't weather a storm a storm unless they are built to do so (Champions could have survived this rush and with a tight brick burrowers could had enough time to get to a position to have been a threat. A different aura would have been smart if I had thought about how much fire and corrosion were incoming instead of noticing that everything in the army was stealthed.) and that all they can do against a threat like this is weather a storm.

Perhaps the fix isn't the stone, but that I took the stone at all. 5 points from the stone and 5 from the bushpygs would have been a unit of champs.

[Lord Azathoth]

So I was making some 25 pt lists to play this week, and it dawned on me pretty quickly that I was including 9 points worth of support models.

That's just crazy. So I took a closer look:

Stone Scribe Chronicler - 2 pts - I like him for 2 points. He has MAT 6, 5 wounds, and his abilities aren't a special action. The concealment is great going in, and the pseudo-flank is nice for extra damage. Plus, he benefits also, which is great, and his buffing range is nice. Keeping him in, but if I was tight for points I would downgrade him to Swamp Gobbers in a pinch.

Fell Caller - 3 pts - I'm kind of torn. For the extra point over a Stone Scribe, Chronicler, he has better damage output, but his buffing abilities have a shorter range, don't buff himself, he no longer has Commander (well, that would be the MK2 equivalent anyway), and his buffs seem less important then they used to be. If he still buffed RAT or could buff beasts it would be one thing, but how much I need him will depend both on the gameboard terrain and the opposing caster's access to knockdown effects.

Krielstone Bearer - 4 points. Yikes. The +2 armor is nice, but their MAT dropped to 5, they can't charge and buff at the same time, they are a pain in the rear to use as always, and some of my warlocks will NEVER have the spare fury to give them. The attachment is worth the 1 point if you are taking them but I miss the magic attacks-it has more uses than just vs. incorporeal (Wind Wall, Vilmon, etc.) and used to be easier to implement. I agree that I change to how these guys work would be very welcome.

[Sevwall]

The fellcaller is no longer really needed. Kriel Warriors are 7's, Fennblades are 6's, and Champs and Longriders are 7's.

He is good, but no longer required.

The chrinicler on the other hand....

[lich lord burns]

Agree with Sevwall. The KSB is never going to leach from beasts. If you want more utility out of it, submit feedback to make the aura "anytime during activation". That would allow our bbrick to move faster at least.

[Goris]

I have to say I liked the idea earlier of it just buffing a single unit instead of the whole army, but I think then for casters like Doomy, it's a Doomy buffing piece and not an army buffing piece...

[Waaargh]

It's just so annoying. The way TB spends several activates to make a few units/models good. I would be happy if Fury Vault was taken away from the KSB and it just operated along the lines of the Choir. At least the simple order of activations didn't have to be a puzzle to put together.

Ran another game, and got reminded just how low ARM 18 is.

[General Nemo]

It's just so annoying. The way TB spends several activates to make a few units/models good. I would be happy if Fury Vault was taken away from the KSB and it just operated along the lines of the Choir. At least the simple order of activations didn't have to be a puzzle to put together.

Ran another game, and got reminded just how low ARM 18 is.

Yeah, it must be hard having to buff your stuff to totally destroy the enemy, instead of having immunity to continuous effects, a strength bonus or magical weapons on top of an extendable aura of increased armor to your entire central force as a natural ability. For five points. Must be hard.

Do you really have all that much trouble or are you grasping for straws here? Or even worse, are you trolling?

Armor 18 is not low, either. It's not a Khadoran heavy, but it isn't fragile by any means.

[ColdYinTiger]

We need to stop talking about fury management. I know its a problem but I think we should look at it from a different angle. If we get it, we will take a hit somewhere. I suspect it would be a hard hit too.

I would rather we gain bonuses for letting them frenzy. Yeah they might kill a few of our troops but Trolls and Dire Trolls have always been a bit on the canniblistic side. Maybe either a krielstone effect that lets them preform a power move on their initial frenzied attack while near it? Or a pulse effect for that.

As for changes....Its hard to say as I tend to not play bricked completely. I always did the wave concept. I would as for a pulse rather then aura for it, then it might end up in some of my armies.

[The Happy Anarchist]

What do you guys think of making it like Druid countermagic?
1" +1" per member in the unit, from each member of the unit?

[Stomphoof]

Fixed Range and Pulse would make me happy as anything man. I could then use the Pulse, get my Champs +2 ARM and +1 STR (And some Kriel Warriors if they are around as well!) and then get the Charge off

Right now I feel like I need to take the charge to get the benefits of the aura sometimes.

[Waaargh]

Nemo, the only one trolling is you.

Go search old forum for my views on the KSB. For good and bad.

Edit: But perhaps you do have a point, maybe a faction faction build around 2 or 3 units activating, worth a small fortune, to make one unit strong isn't my kind of playstyle. Maybe a faction with multiple strong, self reliant, fair priced units are what I should consider for a second faction.

[Sevwall]

It will NEVER be a pulse. Oh, the bookeeping. The terrible bookkeeping!!!

"Did that model get the ARM bonus?"

"Uh..... I dunno?"

[Stomphoof]

It will NEVER be a pulse. Oh, the bookeeping. The terrible bookkeeping!!!

"Did that model get the ARM bonus?"

"Uh..... I dunno?"

Must you be so mean Sev :P lol

Yea good point.