Alignment Thread

[Mar]

Everyone loves these things, so lets try to put alignments on the factions.

Cygnar: Lawful Good - They are like an IK version of America, being world police.

Menoth: Neutral Evil - They only care about spreading their religion and will stop at nothing to do so.

Khador: Lawful Evil - They believe the territory is theirs by law, and are taking it back.

Cryx: Chaotic Evil - Need I say more?

Mercs: True Neutral - This could vary based on which contract you are talking about. Magnus's Agenda would be either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral

Ret - Idk their fluff very well.

Trollbloods: Neutral Good - They are defending their homes and famlies from the various warring factions.

Circle: Lawful Neutral - They are trying to maintain the balance.

Skorne: Neutral Evil - They get a chance to loot and plunder if they invade Cygnar. They torture and mutilate their warbeasts.

Leigion: Chaotic Evil - Idk their fluff that well, but spawning vessels are neutral at best.

[DemonCalibre]

The Protectorate of Menoth is *not* Neutral Evil.

It's Lawful Evil, as their whole thing is they worship the God of Law. Exemplars are noted for the Unquestioning Obediance many times in the fiction, because they believe, that The Clergy, exist to make orders, and they exist to follow them. That is their law.

[2LiveIs2Die]

Cryx is totally not evil

[Azurath]

Menoth: Lawful Evil- definitely not Neutral, as said above, they worship the Lawgiver.

Khador: Lawful Neutral- they are trying to retake land they believe is theirs by right. They are aggressive and expansionist, but I can't really call them evil. They are not about persecuting innocents and the like (at least not as a rule). Most of the attrocities attributable to them are from an occupied state, and is, presumably, an exception to the rule. Yes, they are willing to use evil weapons, but I still hesitate to call them evil.

Mercs: True Neutral- yes, this does vary by contract. Magnus' Agenda is in no way Chaotic Good, they are most likely Lawful Evil, they are trying to reinstate Vinter, who is absolutely Lawful Evil. 4 Star is probably Chaotic Neutral, Highborn is probably Neutral Good, Searforge is probably Lawful Neutral/Good.

Retribution: from their perspective, they are probably Neutral Good. The Retribution itself is Chaotic, but the House elements are Lawful, so Neutral. Good, because they are trying to protect their god. I could also see True Neutral, being that while their motive is good, their tool is genocide.

Circle: Chaotic Neutral- DEFINITELY NOT lawful in any way. Their arch enemy is the lawgiver, they are trying to prevent law from taking over and overpowering the Devourer, who is the embodiment of Chaos. They just realize that Chaos can't win either. You could even say Chaotic Evil, as Devourer worship is highly prevalant, as Orbouros is an aspect of the Devourer, and they ultimately rail against civilization. I Actually might lean more towards Chaotic Evil than Chaotic Neutral.

Skorne: Lawful Evil- before the arrival of Vinter they would have been Neutral evil, but since he has unified them into a single nation, they are definitively lawful.

[PG_Cloud-Gatherer]

OP, those are more or less all incorrect. I think you must not have a good grasp of the old two-axis alignment system, as well as not knowing the IK background very well.

[blue loki]

I'd say Menoth is actually Lawful Good following the classic 9-form heirarchy. They follow the Creator of Man and the laws handed down by His deciples to the letter, leaving no room for questions. While in the modern world that may very well be considered evil, they are following a "good" god as paladins are are therefor Lawful Good by definition.

Of course, I'm a Devourer cultist, so what do I know...

[Mar]

OP, those are more or less all incorrect. I think you must not have a good grasp of the old two-axis alignment system, as well as not knowing the IK background very well.

I just don't know the IK fluff that well. I put my post up here for a point where people can debate off of. I'm not telling the community these are the alignments, I'm merely sparking debate.

[jack frost]

Cygnar: Lawful EVIL - They are like an IK version of America, being world police.

Khador: CHAOTIC GOOD - THE STRONG SHOULD RULE FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

that's more like it...

[PG_KujakuDM]

I hate these threads:

Cygnar - NG to CG
PoM - LN (with LG and LE units)
Khad - LN on the border of N
Cryx - LE bordering on NE
Ret - CN bordering N
Circle - CN bordering on CG
Skorne - LE
Legion - CE
Troll - NG bordering on N

Merc - LG to CE and everything in between
Minion - CG to CE and everythign in between.

[Mar]

Mercs: True Neutral-[/B] yes, this does vary by contract. Magnus' Agenda is in no way Chaotic Good, they are most likely Lawful Evil, they are trying to reinstate Vinter, who is absolutely Lawful Evil.

Why do you say Magnus is LE? He is loyal to Cygnar and just believes that it needs a strong ruler, not like that sissy Leto. Magnus supporting Vinter is just a case of the ends justifying the means. And just because Vinter is LE it doesn't make Magnus LE, as he is supporting him through unconventional means.

[magi]

Let's see...

Cygnar: neutral good (they have some chaotic and some lawful individuals, but all are good)

Menoth: lawful evil (they worship the Lawbringer, but their clergy is corrupt)

Kahdor: neutral good (not prone to torture or other evil deeds, they have just as many heroes and villains on their side as Cygnar. They just happen to have the upper hand in their ongoing war).

Cryx: chaotic evil (while they have some elements that make them somewhat lawful, like their own empire, a dragon who they obey almost without question, and an ongoing plan they will eventually bring to fruition, their individual members are very much caotic in their behavior)

Retribution: Lawful Good (Paladins all, they fight to save their race from extinction. They do have their rogues and scoundrels, but for the most part, just as a palidin will slay a bugbear who is killing villiagers, the Retribution will slay those who kill their gods)

Mercs: chaotic neutral (many fight on a whim, or fight for whoever gives them the most coin, they often care little for the morality of their task)

Trollbloods: chaotic good (lawless and fierce, they fight whoever threatens their way of life)

Circle of Orboros: chaotic neutral (in order to maintain balance, members of the circle are willing to perform acts of treachery and heinous violence as well as shelter those in peril and protect those in need)

Skorne: lawful evil (their nation is built on the notion of survival of the fitest, making them treacherous and and strong. they thrive on torture and cruelty to others)

Legion of Everblight: chaotic evil (they slay wontonly and seem to move about randomly, with their only discernable goal being to stay under Lord Toruk's radar)

[Sevwall]

I'm pretty sure Menoth is a Lawful Neutral God. He just has a predominatly Lawful Evil clergy right now. He also has Lawful Good clergy in the Order of the wall.

[Whimper]

I hate these threads:

I own these threads.

I don't think "Good" and "Bad" and "Better Than Worse" all lined up in a straight axis will quite describe the Iron Kingdom factions. I think it's more relevant to discuss their motivations, and scruples (if any). Here's my take.


1. Khador - Essential question: Whose is the land, and how much humanity will you sacrifice for it?

Concepts: Patriotism/Nationalism, Empire, Betrayal, Jealousy, Revenge, Madness.
"Good" - Preservation of own culture, harmony between major religions, industrial progress, sense of fraternal and filial duty
"Bad" - Disregard of human cost of military expansion, universal conscription, spies on own people, employs criminals
"Evil" - Use of homicidal madmen endangers lives of innocents



2. Protectorate - Essential question: What is the place of ancient virtues in modern times?

Concepts: Humility, Duty/Obedience, Courage, Purity, Penance, Wrath.
"Good" - Frugal and pious lifestyle, valor and self-sacrifice, orderly society
"Bad" - Religious fanaticism, lack of personal freedoms, intolerant of other viewpoints
"Evil" - Torture, slavery, genocide



3. Cygnar - Essential question: Can a kingdom founded on truth and justice withstand moral pragmatism?

Concepts: Idealism, Pluralism, Fairness, Doubt, Resentment, Corruption.
"Good" - Highest quality of life for citizens, many personal rights & freedoms, relatively fair justice system, racial tolerance
"Bad" - Economic expansionism, lack of full rights for non-humans, officials prone to corruption
"Evil" - A few old-west mentality loose canons take law into own hands, occasional displays of excessive force



4. Cryx - Essential question: How ruthless are the doomed in striving toward their goals?

Concepts: Death, Patience, Decay, Poison, Greed, Megalomania.
"Good" - Refrains from unleashing final armageddon... usually.
"Bad" - Disorder, theft, vandalism, unregulated medical science, pollution.
"Evil" - Mass-murder, piracy, soul-slavery, plotting final armageddon.

[Whimper]

5. Circle - Essential question: Do mortals dare interfere in the timeless designs of gods and worlds?

Concepts: Chaos, Hunger, Survival, Balance, Vision, Agency/Independence
"Good" - Seeks to preserve existence of life on Caen, respect for nature and animals
"Bad" - Kidnapping children, inciting revolution and chaos, taking advantage of primitive cultures.
"Evil" - Tampering with powers which should be beyond mortal reach or understanding, possibly bringing about armageddon.



6. Skorne - Essential question: Master or slave- which are you?

Concepts: Servitude, Weakness, Pain, Resolve, Strength, Dominance.
"Good" - Existentialist ideals of hard work and self-perfection, respect for fine arts, good preservation of history and culture (own)
"Bad" - military expansionism, general lack of heartfelt loyalty or nationhood
"Evil" - torture, cruelty, assassination, slavery, tearing apart fabric of space and time.



7. Trollbloods - Essential question: Just how deep are the bonds of blood and kinship?

Concepts: Life, Family, Brotherhood, Promises, Anger, Slaughter. And beer.
"Good" - environmentally friendly(er), appreciation of simple pleasures, belief in equal rights and opportunities.
"Bad" - Catalyst of war, costly inter-kriel struggles, prone to being used by others for ill.
"Evil" - Some extremists have genocidal ambitions, cannibalism.



8. Legion - Essential question: How best to approach the problem of teen pregnancy?

Concepts: Creativity, Genesis, Exile/Solitude, Birth, Innovation, Exegesis
"Good" - Women's rights, eventual opposition to would-be world-ending dragons
"Bad" - Unsustainable population growth, behaviour leading to birth defects, nuclear proliferation.
"Evil" - Genocide, cannibalism, carcinogens, plans to bring about own scaly apocalypse.

[Whimper]

Oh, and the Retribution of Scyrah.


9. Retribution- Essential question: "How should a nation and species act when faced with its looming demise?"

Concepts: Blessing, Hubris, Loss, Guilt/Blame, Desperation, Extinction
"Good" - Reverence of benevolent deity, eco-friendly
"Bad" - Immature foreign policy, elitism, history of irresponsible use of power
"Evil" - Policy of secret murders, ruthlessness, exploitation of the soulless.



Out of all of this, I'd say that Cygnar and Trolls are the "Good Guys", and Circle are sort of anti-heroes if you adopt a very wide view of history. Cryx and Legion are the obvious "Bad Guys". And everyone else falls in between, usually with understandable goals and reprehensible practices.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Menoth as a diety is Lawful Neutral. Menoth's clergy and exemplars (who embody the meat of the faith) are Lawful Neutral. The majority of Menoth's followers are Lawful Neutral. To all of these it matters not what you do, but whether or not you uphold the laws of the faith. Breaking the law is evil, following the law is good.

Among these are two smaller groups:

Paladins - Lawful good - Mainly because they refuse to compromise the safety of those they protect in blind adherence to the law. When it comes to those outside the community though, they are no less zealous in their adherence to the law. Vilmon stopped Voyle from crushing a bunch of Menites, but had they been Cygnarian Soldiers or even civilians rather then Menite prisoners, you probably wouldn't have heard a peep out of him

Scrutators - Lawful Evil - They do what are percieved to be dark and evil things, be they torture, killings, executions, banishments etc, but they do them in accordence with and to uphold the laws of Menoth.

[Loveless]

"8. Legion - Essential question: How best to approach the problem of teen pregnancy?"

You had me up until this point

I think the essential question of Legion is more along the lines of How best to deal with a filicidal father?

[Mod_Faultie]

Mercs: True Neutral...Searforge is probably Lawful Neutral/Good.

Considering that the standard bearers carry around both a listing of their deeds, as well as their legal status as contract/charter-bound Mercenaries, I'd say this is pretty spot on.

[Binz]

Whimper, you are a MASTER!

[alchahest]

legion is definitely not chaotic. They are ruled with an iron fist, and have unflinching dedication to their cause. remember that chaotic doesn't mean "more evil" it just means the opposite of order. and though ethrunbal experiments and has some specific chaotic (absylonia) followers, as a faction, they are rigid and unwavering in their order, so much so that a lot of people still seem to think they have a hive mind.

[thesama]

Ah, we now witness just how ridiculous the ol' D&D alignment system is.

I've yet to see an RPG with an "alignment" system that worked worth a damn.

[khaohs]

Cryx is totally not evil

Very true. They're just misunderstood. It's a total P.R. misunderstanding.

[Warsmith_Ckaile]

Everyone loves these things, so lets try to put alignments on the factions.

Cygnar: Lawful Good - They are like an IK version of America, being world police.

Menoth: Neutral Evil - They only care about spreading their religion and will stop at nothing to do so.

Khador: Lawful Evil - They believe the territory is theirs by law, and are taking it back.

Cryx: Chaotic Evil - Need I say more?

Mercs: True Neutral - This could vary based on which contract you are talking about. Magnus's Agenda would be either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral

Ret - Idk their fluff very well.

Trollbloods: Neutral Good - They are defending their homes and famlies from the various warring factions.

Circle: Lawful Neutral - They are trying to maintain the balance.

Skorne: Neutral Evil - They get a chance to loot and plunder if they invade Cygnar. They torture and mutilate their warbeasts.

Leigion: Chaotic Evil - Idk their fluff that well, but spawning vessels are neutral at best.

Yeah...Lets try that again.

Cygnar- NG-LG, at least since Leto took the throne the belief was that the other nations would eventually calm down and play nice. That was briefly shattered when Stryker went all dark side and started rounding Menites and shipping them off to concentration camps...he got better though.

Protectorate- LN-LE, as the above post. They worship Menoth, the Law Giver. Some Menties are okay like the Paladins of the Wall and some of the Exeplars, scrutators and reclaimers on the other hand are damned evil.

Khador- LN-LE, very militaristic, and since going on the offensive "reclaiming" lands lost to the Corvis Treaties have been less then nice about it.

Cryx- LE-CE, Its a living god dragon and his lich lords that are using the undead to conquer the world.

Retribution- ?, not really sure yet. As far as they are concern they are staving off the death of their gods. However that plan involves the death of every human wizard in Western Immorem.

Trollbloods- NG-NE, A repressed race trying desperately to save themselves. Within that group there are different factions that either want to kill every human within a Dire Trolls arm's reach. While others are trying to just get by with as little damage as possible.

Circle- CG-CE, Much of their power revolves around the worship the Devourer Worm. They are the exact opposite of the Protectorate.

Skorne- LE, Not much more to say about a race that is devoted to slavery and torture.

Legion- LE, Its that whole dragon wanting to take over the world thing again.

[Justin Kase]

Those splotches are great - even if the scorne splotch looks like a goldfish cracker...

Although I think the Cryx splotch is a bit understated in ares like Slavery and Cruelty. - and I suspect Unfreedom as well. I say suspect, cause I'm not 100% certain what you mean by Unfreedom - do you mean being oppressed by the ruling body as opposed to freedom of choice?

[PG_JonWebb]

Cryx is totally not evil

I tell my gaming group the same every time.

Goreshade wants to save the elves, we have a total inclusion policy and we make use of renewable energy and strong recycling ethos.

We just get bad press.

[ShockwaveIIC]

legion is definitely not chaotic. They are ruled with an iron fist, and have unflinching dedication to their cause. remember that chaotic doesn't mean "more evil" it just means the opposite of order. and though ethrunbal experiments and has some specific chaotic (absylonia) followers, as a faction, they are rigid and unwavering in their order, so much so that a lot of people still seem to think they have a hive mind.

Indeed, Chaotic Evil in terms of commanders and armies are typically plagued by in fighting and a might makes right kind of attitude. That is not Legion.

A more accurate telling would be Neutral Evil.

[Azurath]

Why do you say Magnus is LE? He is loyal to Cygnar and just believes that it needs a strong ruler, not like that sissy Leto. Magnus supporting Vinter is just a case of the ends justifying the means. And just because Vinter is LE it doesn't make Magnus LE, as he is supporting him through unconventional means.

I would consider "the ends justify the means" to pretty much be the embodiment of lawful evil. Instituting an inquisition that kills thousands of innocents in order to make a "strong and lawful nation" is evil. Thats what Magnus and Vinter stand for. Magnus is an evil man, who will do evil things to accomplish his goals.

[PG_Cloud-Gatherer]

Ah, we now witness just how ridiculous the ol' D&D alignment system is.

I've yet to see an RPG with an "alignment" system that worked worth a damn.

I find that the problem with most RPG alignment systems, especially the twin-axis D&D one, is that players are insufficiently philosophically-inclined to really understand them.

Also, these threads don't really work with alignment systems because those represent individuals. It is nearly impossible to describe entire societies. You can, at best, approximate tendencies within each society. I think Whimper's "evil splotches" are a much better way to look at a thread like this.

[Brandubh]

@ Whimper, you are awesome! Those splotches are great.

@ OP, check out Whimper's posts.

@ Everyone else....

Firstly, I'd like to proudly point out that Circle's evil splotch is nearly the same area as Cryx's. That's just awesome. Failing everything else, I'll be hunting you down in Urcaen. :P

Secondly, the notion of "goodness" is extremely skewed. Goodness in its most literal sense is working for the well-being of others. This varies considerably depending on your world view.

For example:

1 ) A Morrowen priest might heal a murderer as an act of good towards that individual.

2 ) A Menoth priest might order the genocide of an entire community for the good of society in general.

3 ) A Cygnar politician might push innocent Trolls into the path of an enemy invader for the good of his countrymen.

4 ) A Circle druid might kill an entire city to protect the world from the Devourer.

Thus good is infinitely circumstantial.

The only factions which I think truly violate goodness are Khador, Cryx, Legion and Skorne. These four seem to have a general disregard for anything other than their own plottings...which are typically not associated with self-preservation or the preservation of others. Think about their overarching story-lines:

Khador - to re-build their empire at all costs (both internally and externally)
Cryx - to take over the world and enslave everything
Legion - see above
Skorne - see above

in contrast:
Cygnar - preservation of its kingdom and its people
Protectorate - establishment of a religious eutopia for the good of all mankind
Trollblood - self preservation (mainly)
Circle - to save the world
Retribution - to save the Iosans (which is arguably trying to save their countrymen)

All of the factions commit "evil" in order to accomplish their means. But we don't look at individual actions inasmuch as we look at overarching motivations.

"Bad" - Kidnapping children,

Um, saving children from their murderous parents.

[Mar]

[Mod_Zirik]

I came in here expecting to have to lock something, but it looks like most of you are doing alright so far.

Perhaps you're better off trying to assign alignments to individuals within factions rather than the factons themselves.

[Whimper]

Those splotches are great - even if the scorne splotch looks like a goldfish cracker...

Although I think the Cryx splotch is a bit understated in ares like Slavery and Cruelty. - and I suspect Unfreedom as well. I say suspect, cause I'm not 100% certain what you mean by Unfreedom - do you mean being oppressed by the ruling body as opposed to freedom of choice?

Well, when I made that splotch I had to decide one special thing: is it slavery to enslave someone after they're dead? Is it cruelty to do horrible things to their body, when they no longer inhabit it? Is a society without the rule of law more or less free than one under the iron grip of a micro-managing tyrant?

Basically, to me "Unfreedom" means the systemic opposition to personal liberties. In the Nightmare Kingdom, there are no real laws enforced besides "might makes right" and "Toruk ever after". Sure, the people of Cryx are 'un-free' from all the other evils there, but they don't suffer from having too many laws or enforcement.

As far as slavery goes, there is a bit of slavery that happens, especially in Blackwater. But the majority of oppression in the Scharde Isles comes in the form of other categories- corruption, strife/insecurity, and murder.

And cruelty on these splotches doesn't just mean doing distasteful things, it means causing pain for pain's sake alone, or a sadistic relationship between pleasure and pain. The Skorne run their whole army through the management of torture and agony, whereas for the Cryx, suffering and anguish are mere bi-products of their way of doing business. The Protectorate believe that suffering purifies the soul, and have torturers as their ruling elite. Aside from them, most factions don't act in a cruel manner all the time. Cryx is only less vehemently evil than Legion in this regard because they save their worst harm for those who've already died.

[Weaselcreature]

Good...bad...I'm the guy(s) with the gun(s).

[Ivellis]

Whimper's splotches of evil are definitely awesome, and seem to be in line with my own thoughts. Amusing how Circle has so much evil, but they do it all to save the world.

I think Zirik is right though, we'd probably have more luck with the alignment thing if we applied them to warcasters instead of factions.

[Nyarlathotep333]

This thread is awesome! And Whimper's splotches are great!

I've never liked the alignment system in D&D. I don't generally hold my players to their alignments unless they are blatantly acting against them on a regular basis and even then I'd just suggest changing it to something different instead of penalizing them for it. I understand that certain classes (i.e. Monk, Paladin, etc.) need to follow a moral code of some sort but once again I tend to enforce the actions rather than the alignment.

That being said, I think that PPS_Mod:Zirik has the right idea here. It would be easier to assign alignments to individuals rather than whole groups. Whimper is also spot on with his graphs since it takes larger considerations into view when looking at these groups rather than just 'good vs. evil' and 'law vs. chaos'.

However, if it had to be generalized by group I'd at least make a notation that differentiates the Sul-Menites from the Old Faith Menites. Sul-Menites would tend to be more along the lines of Lawful Evil while those of the Old Faith would probably tend more towards Lawful Neutral in my opinion.

[HandsomeDan]

Perhaps you're better off trying to assign alignments to individuals within factions rather than the factons themselves.

I totally agree. I think Protectorate probably holds the easiest examples. Severius most assuredly falls under the Lawful Evil category while it could definitely be argued that the Harbinger, and certainly Vilmon could be classified as Lawful Good.

[Mar]

Gorman DiWolfe: Chaotic Evil.

[Professor Lust]

Whimper, never have i seen such a clever and actually understandable graphical representation of evil.

[Gorbad]

The Retribution is clearly Chaotic Evil.
Rampaging homicidal maniacs who actively seek to kill everyone and everything standing in there way and specifically trying to exterminate specific groups of people.
All in the name of unsubstantiated beliefs.

[squidstudios]

Whimper, can we some splotches of Good as well? How do the factions measure up when their competing for "most good" instead of "most eveil"?