Bloodgorgers as Champions...

[Yoritomo Jiriki]

HAs anyone used bloodgorgers (cryx) as their Trollkin Champions? I'm holding these champions in my hands and I really dislike the sculpts so much that I'm having difficulty finding the motivation to paint them. The bloodgorgers on the other hand look really good.

Tournament-wise, will using bloodgorger models as champions still be legal?

[PG_petegrrrr]

No, it won't be legal.

You cannot replace one legal model with another. It's way too confusing, even if they work for different factions.

You can do them for friendly games, and maybe local tournys, but that won't work for any of the cons or big events.

[bakaryu]

Besides the fact that their heavily forward weighted run means that they have no concept of defense I really like the champions. In fact I have started painting up my unit this week and intend to finish them this weekend.

[notsoevil]

I had this exact idea and would LOVE to trade off my NIB box of Champs for a box of Bloodgorgers (plus differece in cost). But I might just be stuck trying to sell the champs first.

And I can pretty much guarantee my conversions (I wouldn't just proxy in) of Bloodgorgers to Champs would fly just fine at big tournies. "Way too confusing" is a load of garbage.

I'm playing Trollbloods and I have a unit of heavily armored Trollkin with two one-handed weapons. Oh, those are Champs!

But let's not get into that insane discussion.

[Gython]

I agree in that they look awesome! I have the amazingly well painted cryx bloodG general as my campion hero & was thinking of using the bloodG's as the champ unit too. Those sculpts really are awesome in their sculpts!

[Yoritomo Jiriki]

And I can pretty much guarantee my conversions (I wouldn't just proxy in) of Bloodgorgers to Champs would fly just fine at big tournies. "Way too confusing" is a load of garbage.

I was planning to convert them too (marginally offcourse since my conversion skills are non-existent), perhaps replace the heads and the weapons and somehow get rid of the skulls on their belts.

[Gython]

The skulls on their belts is what gives them added character!

[Yoritomo Jiriki]

The skulls on their belts is what gives them added character!

oh I agree, but I don't see any other Trollbloods with skulls on their sculpts (correct me if I am wrong), and the skulls might be the source of any confusion hehe... PEACE!

[Splog]

My Champion unit is a mix of the champion and bloodgorger models. An expensive way of getting the unit but I managed to recoup most of my cost by selling the surplus models.

I only play with friends so it hasn't ever been an issue.

[PhoenixBlaze]

Way too confusing? Um....why?

I'll admit, the blighted spikes are a bit much. I've taken Gerlak, trimmed his spikes and generally, made him look nicer and he's my Hero. If I did the same for the Bloodies, I highly doubt anyone but the most **** tournament runner or player would say I couldn't use them.

[PG_Goldstep]

At a local, you might be fine.
Pete is right, however, in that the letter of the law means that if someone told me they were confused, I'd ask you to use the "real" models.

Simply it makes someone think, "Oh, this must be some special troll rule that allows them to use Bloodgorgers."
I have heard of people who did a little conversion work -- basically what you are talking about -- making the armor less spiky and adding a tartan. If you did that, I'd personally be much less likely to agree with someone that they are too bloodgorgey to be champs.

[Gorbad]

Does it look like armoured Trollbloods armed with two weapons? If it does and it's a Trollblood army how confusing can it really be?

[PG_Goldstep]

Only enough that without any changes to the models whatsoever they have this problem. After all:

Painting, Modeling, Proxies, and Conversions
Privateer Press encourages players to have a fully painted force on the table. Games with fully painted armies are more interesting to watch and generally enhance the play experience for all. Although painted armies are not required, players should take this chance to show off all aspects of the hobby.
Proxies (substitute models) are not allowed under any circumstances, nor can a player enter a tournament with a model that has not been released to the general public.
All models must be WARMACHINE or HORDES models appropriate to the tournament venue. Conversions (modifications to Privateer Press models) are acceptable as long as they are clearly based on WARMACHINE or HORDES models. Conversions must represent the model from which they are most obviously drawn. For example, a heavily converted Haley model is not a substitute for Sorscha. Weapon changes are acceptable provided they represent the same type of weapon replaced. For example, trading a sword for a sword is legal. However, mixing and matching warjack weapons is not allowed.
TOs have the authority to make exceptions and approve any reasonable conversions. To avoid confusion and conflict, players must have an unaltered version of the model available in case a TO asks that a questionable model be removed from play. The TO makes the final call on the acceptability of any particular model.

So if it is an unaltered Bloodgorger it is a proxy not a conversion and so it is strickly a no.
If you use bits off the champs and bits of the gorgers or you add a tartan to the gorgers, I would likley say yes as the TO, but that is because I have the authority to make an exception, not because it is a model allowed under the rules.
Personally, I like the idea, but I need to see a tartan or it isn't a Trollblood.

[whats82]

What you see is what you get. That's the main principle to it. So the conversion must be serious enough that leaves no doubt to the observer that they are champs instead of gorgers, even if they started as gorger pewters. There's an extreme behemoth conversion in the main forum on the same topic and I've seen everyone agree it would be allowed, because it leaves no doubt what the model is.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Double post.

[PG_petegrrrr]

I would allow it at my local tournies.

I am saying, that at the big events, it will not fly do to the proxy rules.

It's not a matter of being a jerk or anything, but their are CLEAR rules on this. The no proxy rule trumps our authority as TO.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Yeah, the main thing is you can't just have Bloodgorgers that you use in your Cryx & Trollblood force. They have to be converted enough that they look like they belong in Trolls, which would by default make them not look like they belong as blighted bloodgorgers in Cryx.

Same thing actually goes for converting Champs into Bloodgorgers I suppose.

[PG_petegrrrr]

True.

Even then, out of faction conversions, as evidenced by the heavily converted haley not being a legal swap for sorcha, are generally frowned apon.

Even if the TO allows it, your opponent can demand a switch, and you would have to oblige.

[Gorbad]

It's not a matter of being a jerk or anything, but their are CLEAR rules on this. The no proxy rule trumps our authority as TO.

I disagree. If I'm the TO I'm the final authority. That the basic steamroller 2010 rules says no proxies are irrelevant if I allow them. Similar if the opponent demand you swap the models, If I've given the go ahead for it with no reservations then that is it.
Issues resolved.

[PG_thegreatblah]

I disagree. If I'm the TO I'm the final authority. That the basic steamroller 2010 rules says no proxies are irrelevant if I allow them. Similar if the opponent demand you swap the models, If I've given the go ahead for it with no reservations then that is it.
Issues resolved.

I think you'll find that in the near future the allowances in official Steamroller events will be restricted more than they used to be.

House Tournament = House Rules

But if you do Steamroller with Steamroller prize support then expect less ability for house rules and more clarity from PP about what differences will be allowed.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Indeed.

If you are running a steam roller event, expect more guidelines for it to be considered official.

If you go outside those guidelines, you are no longer running an official steam roller.

[megatron0]

Listen to the PG's people! heed their ancient wisdom

[notsoevil]

If I were playing with an opponent who "demanded" a switch, then I'd have to STRONGLY question his sportsmanship. Heck, at that point, I'd be GLAD not to play them.

Sportsmanship > all and barring a proxy complaint (so I'm talking conversion of BGs into Champs), the only reason someone would do that is to be a jerk. They are not "confused".

[Gython]

...Sportsmanship > all and barring a proxy complaint (so I'm talking conversion of BGs into Champs), the only reason someone would do that is to be a jerk. They are not "confused".

AGREED 100%. Though I would say more like an A$$ hole.

[PG_petegrrrr]

It depends.

Especially in a hardcore tournament, you have so much to keep track of, I would not begrudge someone to ask me to use the correct models.

When your in a huge time crunch, sometimes keeping track of the fact that one faction unit is actually supposed to be this faction unit can just slip by you. You can forget that they aren't bloodgorgers. You can forget that they are proxying for Champs and think they were proxying for kriels, there are lots of little stupid things that can happen when you are flying by in a 7 minute turn.

And the fact that it is specifically mentioned as a major No no means you need to bring the unconverted unit to be safe.

EDIT* Also, sportsmanship is a two way street.

bringing a type of model that is specifically mentioned as being illegal for the reasons listed above is bad sportsmanship on your part as well.

Even if it is just a tiny chance, bringing something you know could potentially confuse or throw off your opponent is not the greatest sportsmanship. For every Yin, there is a Yang.

[Sevwall]

If I were playing with an opponent who "demanded" a switch, then I'd have to STRONGLY question his sportsmanship. Heck, at that point, I'd be GLAD not to play them.

Sportsmanship > all and barring a proxy complaint (so I'm talking conversion of BGs into Champs), the only reason someone would do that is to be a jerk. They are not "confused".

I don't get mad if people demand a switch. Some people just have a problem with proxies, or with remembering what the hell that is again (especially if they are unfamiliar with the faction anyway).

[PG_petegrrrr]

Sev is right.

You see what you people made me do? You took a position so crazy you forced me to say "Sev is right!"

I hope you're proud of yourselves....you monsters!!!

[notsoevil]

I don't get mad if people demand a switch. Some people just have a problem with proxies, or with remembering what the hell that is again (especially if they are unfamiliar with the faction anyway).

If they can't remember the beefy Trolls with armor and two weapons are Champions, it really doesn't matter WHAT model I'm using then does it? They have larger problems at hand.

[phreaker187]

If I were playing with an opponent who "demanded" a switch, then I'd have to STRONGLY question his sportsmanship. Heck, at that point, I'd be GLAD not to play them.

Sportsmanship > all and barring a proxy complaint (so I'm talking conversion of BGs into Champs), the only reason someone would do that is to be a jerk. They are not "confused".

The opponent doesn't have to demand anything in an official PP tourney. The resurgence tourney specifically stated that no proxies are allowed. This is a change from MK1 where proxies were allowed with the TO's permission.

If you have proxies, then your army is illegal so you can't play. Makes me wish they would have re-sculpted a lot more things.

Of course they might switch it up in the official steam roller rules, but I doubt it.

[Brettman008]

Playing a friendly game at the LGS with proxies/conversions is fine. I use my Kilt Lifter as Grissel because I can't stand her model (insert plea for re-sculpt). However, I own the Grissel model for tournament play. if you're going to a big tournament you have to have the correct models. It's in the rules.

While I'm not a big fan of the no proxy rule I do see it's value. What constitutes an acceptable proxy? Is my Mauler Extreme with a club a good Mulg? What about calling a regular Ironclad 'Ol Rowdy? Or using Boomhowler and Co. as regular Kriel Warriors and a Fell Caller? See how this exercise goes downhill fast.

If you're not planning to play in official events then by all means do all the converting you want. However, it is in the tournament rule and there's no getting around it.

Edited for spelling and grammar.

[PG_petegrrrr]

If they can't remember the beefy Trolls with armor and two weapons are Champions, it really doesn't matter WHAT model I'm using then does it? They have larger problems at hand.

It's amazing what can trip you up when your playing a hardcore tournament.

If it wasn't a problem, PP wouldn't have made the rule, now would they?

[Hatred]

HAs anyone used bloodgorgers (cryx) as their Trollkin Champions? I'm holding these champions in my hands and I really dislike the sculpts so much that I'm having difficulty finding the motivation to paint them. The bloodgorgers on the other hand look really good.

Tournament-wise, will using bloodgorger models as champions still be legal?

I would totally disagree with you on this.

I think the Bloodgorger models look like total *** compared to the champions.
The only model out of that unit that looks cool is the Unit Leader. Their sculps are not that good when you hold them up close and really examine them.

On the other hand I quite often use my champions as bloodgorgers as they are
a) trolls
b) look better
c) and are big like trolls should be.


I do however use Gnereal slaughterborn as my trollkin hero as I think his model is far better looking than the hero's and is also geared out the exact same way. Just he has spikes and skulls. He is however not a big *** troll unfortunately.

[PG_thegreatblah]

If I were playing with an opponent who "demanded" a switch, then I'd have to STRONGLY question his sportsmanship. Heck, at that point, I'd be GLAD not to play them.

Sportsmanship > all and barring a proxy complaint (so I'm talking conversion of BGs into Champs), the only reason someone would do that is to be a jerk. They are not "confused".

Just depends on what format you are playing and what the TO and your opponent say. If you are asked to play the correct way based on the rules PP has laid out then you are kind of obligated to do so.

Homebrew Tournament = House Rules

Steamroller Tournament (with Steamroller Prize support) = Steamroller rules as laid out by PP.

Hardcore Tournament = Hardcore Rules.

Goofing around = My Pygmy Bushwacker is now eHaley.

Pretty simply, it just depends on what kind of tourney you are playing. The more official the tournament the more exacting the rules become.

To make a long story long.
Playing the Right way based on the type of game you are playing = Sportsmanship.

Trying to make it different because you like it more even though it is aside from the way everyone else and rules say you should do it = Doing it wrong.

Sportsmanship as defined by Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: sports·man·ship
Pronunciation: \-ˌship\
Function: noun
Date: 1745
: conduct (as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport

sportsmanship. (2010). In Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary.
Retrieved February 28, 2010, from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sportsmanship

[PG_petegrrrr]

Uhmmhmm has it right.

If you're playing a casual game, anything goes.

if you're doing a non steam roller, local game store tournament, it's up to your TO. I personally would allow it, as I love bloodgorgers

But from Steamroller events, to con tournaments, to hardcore tournaments, the rules are the rules.

If you choose to try and skirt the rules, and don't bring the actual models just in case, that is a sporstmanship problem on your end, not your opponents.

Your personal beliefs have nothing to do with the rules. The rules are rules for a reason. If you ignore/skirt them based on personal preference, your being a poor sport. That's just the way it is, regardless of how you feel.

[PG_Goldstep]

If they can't remember the beefy Trolls with armor and two weapons are Champions, it really doesn't matter WHAT model I'm using then does it? They have larger problems at hand.

I'm not sure I can agree with this.
Yesterday we had a person who used a few borrowed minis for UA on a IFP unit (newer player who needed help getting to 50 points). His opponent thought they were a small IFP solo separate from IFP unit. He figured it was something new he hadn't seen yet. Like the Marksman was for the Widowmakers.
The only trouble that it caused was a few moments of "who's on first" with the cards. "Could I see this one's card? No I means this one. Not the UA, this solo. Not the IFP, the unit next to it. No the one next to the UA."
In other words, your opponent could get confused, get an idea in his head that this is a different troll unit and get mussed up, just because it isn't what he expects to see.
This one was no issue. It was by the rules and everyone agreed, no harm, no foul. But if it were an issue, you'd best believe I'd be politely asking the Khador player to use things in the rules or to remove them from the table.

If you have proxies, then your army is illegal so you can't play. Makes me wish they would have re-sculpted a lot more things.

TO discretion fixes this. As long as your TO and your opponent agree, use what you want. Just be ready if they don't agree to use the real thing. Honestly, I've never had a time when the opponent doesn't agree and I've never seen a time when I couldn't allow something when the opponent could.

But from Steamroller events, to con tournaments, to hardcore tournaments, the rules are the rules.

And honestly if you have the models, even in Steamrollers, I'm likely to make exceptions for you. As long as it isn't an attempt to ignore the rules, I don't want to be the guy who stifles creativity.
That's not the goal here. The goal is to have the rules obeyed so that we can all say, "yes, it's a legitimate win."

[PG_Invader Larb]

My opion here is simple:

There are proxies and there are conversions. If you put some effort (to the best of your ability) to permanently turn 5 Bloodgorgers into a unit of Champions I will 99.9% of the time approve them for use in my events as "conversions." If you take the studio models and drop them on the table and say they're Champions you are using a proxy, which is either discouraged or not allowed.

There are lots of things you can do to convert the Bloodgorgers. First, anyone can use a file to tone down the angry spike stituation. Trollbloods have rivets and not too many sharp long spikes.

Second, a little more advanced but not really difficult is to do some weapon swaps. I'd try to give them Axes and Hammers and reduce the use of bowie knives. POW 11 Weapon Master (POW 4 weapon) should be something that hits pretty hard. Yes, I know the Bloodgorgers have the same POW 4 stat, but you get the idea.

Lastly the advanced modeller might add some sashes or tartan-style cloth to the Bloodgorger models. This would seel the deal and clearly show your opponent that you took time to integrate the Bloodgorger models as Trollblood models not Cryx models. And some paint also helps.

Again, I would not require these specific changes, they are just some suggestions. But it can give you a sense of the difference between a proxy and a conversion. Conversions take some effort.

[bloodstrike]

While I agree that for casual games and possibly smaller LGS tourneys, conversions would be fine as long as at the start of every match you specifically took the time to say, "By the way, these models are my champions" instead of surprising your opponent with weird stuff later, the line below in my opinion is the heart of this matter and it seems to be the one that a lot of people have overlooked as far as official tourneys go:

... Conversions (modifications to Privateer Press models) are acceptable as long as they are clearly based on WARMACHINE or HORDES models. Conversions must represent the model from which they are most obviously drawn. For example, a heavily converted Haley model is not a substitute for Sorscha...

So yes, while it goes on to say that TO's can make exceptions, the letter of the rules say that a bloodgorger model, no matter how converted, can not be used as a champion.

And I don't know about you, but I'm not going to buy and paint two different units just so that when one gets challenged at a tourney, I have to put one away to take out the other.

[PG_Goldstep]

And I don't know about you, but I'm not going to buy and paint two different units just so that when one gets challenged at a tourney, I have to put one away to take out the other.

Which is exactly why when I see someone who has done this, I get very understanding, very quickly.

It's someone who could use the real ones but has models he loves and did a %@#load of work to do so.

The job isn't to crush dreams. It's to make sure it is all fair.

[PG_Invader Larb]

If someone brought painted Bloodgorgers that matched the rest of his Trollblood army, they would be fine with me. Wjhy, because they made an effort to make them belong in the army. I always encourage these types of efforts.

[PG_petegrrrr]

It all depends though.

When we get to make the call, sure, most of us would allow it.

But in steamroller events, hardcore, and big con tournies, the rules specifically say "no proxies". And the rules point out, that a model based on an entirely different model is not a conversion (i.e. the haley for sorcha example), it is a proxy. We don't get a say in that case.

Id suggest doing this only A) if you don't plan to play in tournaments outside your LGS, or B) As long as you have a regular unit to switch out upon request.

To do otherwise invites heartache.

I don't want a player to go to a tournament thinking "well PG so and so thinks there okay, I'll totally get them in the list!" and then when his models aren't allowed...he feels like he was given bad advice.
Because at some point, it is no longer in the TO or the PG's hands.

When I explain why there are many cases where these models will not fly, I am not being a jerk. I am looking out for you guys so you don't get DQ'd out of the gate.