Ok Pugmy Burrowers have arrived!

[Stevenswayze]

Getting 6 of these guys for 4 points is awesome. I finally gave them a run yesteray, and their first game out they only managed to kill Lylith. They went from frustatingly obnoxious to use, to elegant and simple. They now effect the game.

The biggest thing is the speed. Moving 6" underground per turn is perfect for getting into position behind enemy lines. They cause all kinds of havoc for the opponent because they start playing games with their direction facing so as to avoid the rear arc shots.

They were very good. I know it is hard to make room for them what with all the Krielstone, Chronicler, Fell Caller, etc costs, but if you do make the room, they will not let you down.

Very nice with Grim Angus's feat, or if Grissel can get Calamity on something.

[Writer@Large]

How did the Lylyth kill play out? A lot of people are concerned about their poor RAT and lack of survivability once they "pop" so I'd be interested to hear.

--W@L

[hooksy67]

wow with calamity on something and popping and aiming this guys would be effective rat 8 and pow 16 that is nuts for not being attacked until they pop and that is without the backstrike (which wont happen against most opponents)

[Sevwall]

IF they can aim. There is some dispute to that.

[somesamurai]

-Wrote up a quick ****ysis on these guys and how they killed Vayl on turn 2. I second the O.P's opinion; you need to try them out.

[somesamurai]

-Sevwall,l I thought it was confirmed by a PP admin that they do.

[hooksy67]

yeah pretty sure i remember that one too

[Sevwall]

Yeah, it was. Yet nobody else will answer the question. And, as far as I know, PPS_Jack isn't a rules guy or even a playtest guy.

And its too big a factor in thier gameplay for it to be assumed to be one thing and then "POOF" they don't get to aim.

We need to be SURE.

[zverbug]

I'm confused, how are they moving 6" a turn underground. Doesn't their FT card read 3".... I know mine does... I'm looking at it right now.

[Turtle]

Reread the FT card, this time don't assume the text is the same as Mk1, make sure to read over the whole text instead of skimming. With Mk2, people are missing a lot of info because of that.

They move 3" during the maintenance phase. Then, in the beginning of the control phase they can choose to pop up, however, if they do not then at the end of the control phase they may move another 3".

Thus, 6" of movement on a turn they don't pop up, or 3" of movement and then pop up.

And they also have advanced deploy.

[bashamer]

they move 3" twice (I had to reread the card, miss played it the first game) Once during maintance, once during control.

So they are right under your front line of Kriel after turn one, not sure how I feel about that. 10", plus 12" run is the same as 10+6+3+3

There are a few questions that game up in my game about the marker. The marker is pretty big so it isn't like a model (physically) could sit on top of it.

[zverbug]

they move 3" twice (I had to reread the card, miss played it the first game) Once during maintance, once during control.

So they are right under your front line of Kriel after turn one, not sure how I feel about that. 10", plus 12" run is the same as 10+6+3+3

There are a few questions that game up in my game about the marker. The marker is pretty big so it isn't like a model (physically) could sit on top of it.

Thanks, got it now, missed it too. That's pretty hot stuff. Looking forward to giving them a shot this week.

[CodeRed97]

Yeah, it was. Yet nobody else will answer the question. And, as far as I know, PPS_Jack isn't a rules guy or even a playtest guy.

And its too big a factor in thier gameplay for it to be assumed to be one thing and then "POOF" they don't get to aim.

We need to be SURE.

Absolutely agreed. They are really weak if they can't. I posted the question originally and went back to look at the thread. Jack's post isn't even there anymore. Also, as you said, he's not an Infernal. The question has been posed by you and me in two threads. It's been up for days and we don't even have a "it's on the list". Where are the Infernals? I'd settle for some kind of response even if it was a "we'll get back to you on that".

[Sevwall]

Lunatic Calm said he was checking in the newest thread in the Field Test forum.

[joedj]

Mea culpa. I declared the Burrowers DOA on first read through. My initial thought was 3" move per turn plus no aiming (RAT 4 = ) would mean my painted set would stay unchipped.

6" move per turn is great! (Dude, these fools dig FAST!)
Aiming is still debatable, though with maximum 8" change in direction in one turn those back arc shots may be more possible. Surfacing within 5" is a 'place' effect as opposed to an 'advance', so does not prevent aiming. However, 'Placed models cannot advance during the turn they surface." may prevent forfeiture of 'move' that is required for aiming.

I've got my fingers crossed...

[Cannibalbob]

I've got my fingers crossed...

I have a feeling it will be a negative response. But I am crossing my fingers as well.

[i_like_tool]

I don't care. There said it. I hate Pyg's of all types and hope they nerf our cheap long gunners rip off down to Range 8" So sick of people asking for a Pyg caster. If we get one he'll be DEF "I'm Retarded" and die every game because no one likes them. His own Trolls will eat him



I kid completely, my fingers are crossed but I'm not hopeful. Haven't even tried em yet so can't honestly comment but I see the potential in them

[The Happy Anarchist]

Man, I totally was about to chew you out tool, until I saw the small print. Was ready to skim over that because I thought it was a sig.

I am going to test them in a borka list with the KSB. They should be able to keep ahead in a list that has to slow down for the krielstone.

[Turtle]

I'll be playing with Pygs in my next few games, wish me luck.

Also, being 22" up the board on turn 2 is pretty significant as that's almost half-way. It's not quite right to say they'll be under your front line, because you can't really know where your front line will end up holding position. Your opponent might get first turn, or might have superior range, and other factors making Pyg Burrowers even more attractive since they're something that can leisurely stroll right up to enemy lines with no way the enemy can counter them besides moving from whatever good position they had.

[i_like_tool]

You know my actual problem with Pyg's of any variation is? I never can come up with a list that includes any of em. I never have the points.
Maybe that's why I don't care for the Blitzer. I like the model but I don't want to shoot an opposing army. I want to rush in and beat face

Last time I ran an Impaler? Was Battle Boxes + Unit + Solo. That Solo? Alten Ashley to f#@# my opponents Skorne Titans. That's it. I have 4 Impalers. Don't use em.

I need to get over that. I need to be willing to try all of our models out but I don't know what sorta list to run. I can see the value in the changes, and I can the importance of getting some shots in before the gap closes....I just don't like doing it I Guess. I could write a list I'm sure, theorymachine is easy for me, and I can even plan out moves ahead of time. I....just don't want to lol

[Stevenswayze]

The way the game went down against Lylith was as follows:

First my friend and I agreed to let a 3rd friend make both of our lists based on models/units he wanted to see played, in army design concepts he finds interesting. His theme was bascially shootout at the OK Corale.

My list was
Grim Angus
Pyre Troll
Impaler
Impaler
Blitzer
Thumper
10 Bushwackers
6 Dygmies
whelps

I hated the list at first blush because I thought "No champs, no fell callers, scribe choniclers, or kriestone beaers = auto lose" but his synergies were that I could use the Pyre Troll animus to make any of the beasts capable of taking down big stuff, and the whelps gave my beasts some survivability, and everything else is too far apart sorta of a spread formation idea. So the list he made for my opponent:

Lylith
Seraph
Seraph
Nephilim
6 Blighted Archers
5 Raptors
6 Striders

Again, no buffers, support stuff. I do not know much about Everblight but is was decided that he made a good list for me and a bad one for my opponent (lawl!).

So we played it competitively though, we had a building in the middle, off to one side a bit, and then we had 2 forests on my side, and a hill on his side(I won the toss for the table side picking).

Basically I casted Cross Country on the Blitzer and funneled all my infantry to the right side of the table, and he came towards me on the left side, so we were kinda swirling around each other. My range was just better than his, and I maneuvered to the point where he lost his raptors, and I had only lost a couple of Bushwhackers. My Burrower token was basically right next to Lylith on the right side.

I moved my Blitzer up to my Bushwackers to cast his animus which got the raptors off me, and then he used his gun to kill one of them, and this allowed my Bushwackers to take CRAs to kill the remaining ones.

Unfortunately my Blitzer was only able to move the 5" which aft him a bit open. The Seraphs and Lylith were finally able to get him in their gunsights. So he moved Seraph number one up, and shot the Blitzer a few times(spawning 3 whelps). The next Seraph came up and spawned 2 more whelps but overall the blitzer was not in too terrible a shape. So finally Lylith moved into base to base with both Seraphs, and shot through a tiny gap to get the Blitzer on final time with a shot, and a spell, the Blitzer was hurt but still alive. Finally he moved a Nehpilim into position so that I could not actually draw any los to Lylith AND the Blitzer had zero chance to charge the Seraphs.

So on my turn I moved my Dygmies up 3 inches to Lylith's back arc, and then deployed them 5" further to all six had LOS to her backside, while also being within 4" which is actually hard to do I found out. Then my Impalers casted Far Strike on the Thumper cannon, and Grim Angus. Then Grim Angus caster Cross Country on the thumper(it was behind a forest, so this gave me LOS).

Then I moved Grim the full 6" into the woods, towards the Serpahs/Lylith triangle, popped his feat getting all 3 models in it. Then he caster Marked for Death on the front Seraph which he was barely in range of, and then finally he shot the Nephilim with his net gun knocking it down.

Next I activated my Thumper and shot it at the Seraph which was now DEF9 so I need a 3+ to hit, which I did. The slam knocked down Lylith, and the other Seraph. Lylith shunted the pow14 collateral damage onto her Nephilim. More importantly though, she was now Def7.

So then I activate the Dygmies, and the first one does 6 damage, 2nd one 5 damage, and then the 3rd one 6 damage which she shunted, and then the 4th one 6 more damage which she shunted, and then 5th one 8 damage which killed her.

The Burrowers really worked their butts off though, causing Lylith to, up untill that turn, always stay over 18" from Grim Angus because she did not want the back arc shots, @def-3. So they always kept her held back, which meant I was able to blitz the one side of the table and kill the Raptors, and Archers with minimal losses. Finally he had to just say to heck with the Dygmies, and just try to kill the Blitzer(which was giving him fits actually).

The Burrowers were just so awesome for 4pts. (take 2 units at 4pts each, but I do not recomment taking the 10 for 6, just way too cumbersome to deploy methinks)

Think about those games against Menoth, or other Troll players, or Skorne. They can really wreak havoc on peoples support models in the back lines. They do EXACTLY what I always wanted my Kossites to do.

Also we ruled they cannot aim because in the last edition, I was under the impression you could not sacrifice your movement if you could not advance in the first place. I would love nothing more then to have effectively rat8 dygmies though. That would make them insane auto includes. At that point they are giving Cygnar issues too(oops sorry Jr Warcaster, and Squire!).

Other applications would be to pop out behind an Avatar of Menoth, and hit it with POW14s against his back armor 19(the Avatar is alwys a headache for me). I think they can go low defense, semi high armor hunting.

I emplore my fellow trolls to give these guys a whirl.

[Sevwall]

They are FA:1, or two units would be good advice.

Personally, I like the idea of two units of Bog Trogs and one unit of Burrowers.

'Where you gonna go?'

[Saerko]

Just tried out my Pygs today, and I've gotta say I'm pretty happy.

Just to let you guys know, I've had a dream for some time about running a Pyg & Scattergunner Grim list...and now it's been realized.

Took out a 25 pt. Grim list with Bushwackers, Burrowers, and Scattergunners. An Impaler, Axer, and Slag Troll rounded out the list for my Fury coverage.

Impressions post game:

1) Grim's feat is awesome, and better than before.

2) Bushwackers now have the range to effectively Bushwack, though with their low RAT they aren't infantry destroyers. More effective against Light Warjacks.

3) Burrowers, even without the aiming bonus, can still pile on the hurt. Had a minimum unit wipe out a group of Knights Exemplar, which made me pretty satisfied.

4) Scattergunners are as they always were, but are finally cheap enough to consider fielding.

After several field test games, I'm on the fence about our Warbeasts. On the one hand, their Animi have been improved, but on the other they really don't have the MAT/RAT to put the hurt on anything besides Warjacks. I find they're still support pieces, a sentiment that seems to be echoed by other players.

[Turtle]

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...7&postcount=15

Confirmed, Pyg Burrowers do get the aim bonus. They technically still have movement that they can use to change facing, and forfeit, but they just can't actually advance anywhere with it.

They will be changing the wording in future revisions to clarify this.

Field testing is working it seems.

And now we have effectively RAT 8 pygs when they pop up behind enemy models, with a power 14 hit and complete invulnerability until they pop up, Dygmies are just awesome now.

[Saerko]

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...7&postcount=15

Confirmed, Pyg Burrowers do get the aim bonus. They technically still have movement that they can use to change facing, and forfeit, but they just can't actually advance anywhere with it.

Seriously? Wow...I mean wow.

POW 14 and RAT 8 in the back with no buffs? YES PLEASE.

Imagine some Calamity thrown in there. That's caster-killing territory we're talking about.

[Cambeul]

Or even under Calandra's Feat that would auto hit Def 14 pretty nice.

[Ravir]

If they're in range of Calandra's feat, it means they can't miss a DEF 14 target. Not bad at all.

[Sevwall]

Well, they won't always be getting backstrikes.

But wow.

I'll post this as a seperate thread, to spread the word.

[Turtle]

There is a separate threat already.

But even without the back strike, it's RAT 6, which is still good.

Their only problem is the 4" range, but then again it's a total 9.5" threat range from the burrowing marker.

[mongre36]

Is that really a problem? Think of it not as a 4" range gun but a 4" POW14 melee weapon.

[Turtle]

Nope, not really a problem. And yeah, that's a good way to think of it, likewise I think of my dygmies like a mobile 9" minefield radius.

[General Nemo]

IF they can aim. There is some dispute to that.

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...7&postcount=15
Not anymore

[Sevwall]

.5" burrow base + 3" burrow before pop + 5" place + 1" base + 4" shot = 13.5" of threat from where the burrow began the turn.

Its nice. Especially with Borka, Calandra, Thumper, Runeshapers or Grim. In fact, they just shot stryker to death twice. Once the turn after they popped up (thanks Calandra).

[Goldstep]

They place completely within the 5". So only 12 and 1/2...

.5 base + 3" burrow before pop + 5" place + 4" shot = .5+3+5+4 = 12.5

[HandsomeDan]

Didn't realize they got to move 3" twice, in the maintenance and control phases. Definitely makes these guys worth a second look. Glad these fun and characterful models haven't been relegated to mediocrity. And with an aiming bonus when they pop up. Nice.