Imagine that you face off against ridiculously tough targets - Skorne stuff let's say. Is 7 points for 9 damage every turn really that bad a proposition?
Imagine that you face off against ridiculously tough targets - Skorne stuff let's say. Is 7 points for 9 damage every turn really that bad a proposition?
I would rather add 3 points to it and get double Stormfalls.
Plus, I'd usually rather do 1 point of damage from Sniper and drop Paralytic Aura/Defender's Ward, etc.
Yes, it kinda is.
9 points of damage per turn will drop a heavy in... what... 4 turns? ...It will take that one heavy 3 turns or less to wreck your entire army.
What's the expected output of 2 units of storm fall archers against a sentry Titan under krea's animus?
eEiryss could better be used to drop the Animus, as stated.
Anyway, there are a lot of better ways to deal with a Heavy then either SFA or your set up.
Use Eiryss to drop the animus. Use a heavy (preferrably manticore with high str) to lock the shield arm. Now he's back to armor 19. ...Charge with 11 sentinels, pow 12, weaponmaster. Average 7 damage per sentinel. Total charge damage is 77 damage average, in one turn.
EDIT::: yes, it's not an equivalent point cost to your solution. ...but your solution doesn't really solve anything, whereas mine does.
Last edited by KhaorvaK; 04-30-2013 at 05:30 PM.
Well Ossyan us my castor so my preference to Stormfalls maybe a tad, read a lot, biased in this account. Either way eEiryss to drop that buff is always there. With almost anyone else though, say Kailyssa or Rahn Sentinels all the way.
Yeah, Ossyan could Dispel the animus, dropping him to 21... then the SFA brutal shot under feat for pow 12 +4 dice, which is statistically the same as a charging sentinel... so each SFA would be at Dice +5 for dmg. That's 40 damage if all 8 of them are still alive.
...I still like Sentinels for going after heavies better 1- higher model count, 2- vengeance means potentially two attacks per model per turn, 3-don't need the feat to make them useful...
...Suffice to say, as to the original question: 9 damage to 1 heavy per turn for 7 points is just BAD.
heck, for one point more you could bring a heavy yourself and do real damage :/
Last edited by KhaorvaK; 04-30-2013 at 06:03 PM.
Yup it's pretty turrible
Much better just to get two of them and start popping solos, or to cripple a jack that's missing like one or two boxes on a critical system
The three of them would be amazing against BLT, but the broken bugger has
Now now, it's not all that terrible.
When comparing to Sentinels, there's one very important thing to remember - the snipers and Eiryss do their thing from 12-14" away with Stealth. The Sentinels have to get within 2" of whatever they're wrecking. (Don't get me wrong, I love Sentinels to death).
7 points for the ability to put 9 damage exactly where you want it with consistency is good. To compare it to "1 point more for a heavy", the odds that a Manticore is going to do 9 damage to a heavy at range is slim, let alone that it will land exactly where you need it. Granted the Manti does more than that, but so does Eiryss (and the snipers to a degree, but less so).
There are other ways that I prefer to spend 7 points, but that doesn't mean spending it on Eiryss1 and a pair of snipers is a bad option.
...But the original question was about the amount of damage they could do. ...Which considered alone in that context, is pretty terrible. If all you're getting out of those 7 points is 9 damage, it's a losing proposition.
If he hadn't brought up a Skorne/Hordes Heavy at 23 defense because of a shield, and had pointed at a warmachine heavy with a shield, well then- the snipers are useful for taking out that shield as they can target the shield arm, without needing a heavy jack to armlock.
My thought is: The usefulness of those 7 points isn't in the nine damage. it's to the utility they bring to the table (and the snipers bring basically no utility to the table when facing the hordes half of the game). The goals you're attempting to achieve with those 7 points can be achieved with more useful models (at least over the snipers. eEiryss is great).
...And then I remembered that he wasn't even talking about eEiryss, and realized another flaw in his argument
Last edited by KhaorvaK; 04-30-2013 at 06:38 PM.
I would never consider points spent on ghost snipers or pEiryss to be wasted points. In fact, I used to run 2 snipers and pEiryss in my Kaelyssa list. Something about crippling systems and getting 3 easy points of damage on the enemy caster through backlash was immensely appealing, plus their ability to reach out and touch someone at range.
But that was then. This is now, where for one more point I can get Mage Hunter Infiltrators. Sorry Ghosties and Eiryss... you just didn't make the cut this season...
But like I said, I would never consider any of them to be wasted points.
The problem really is target selection. Unlike a unit of Widow makers, two ghost snipers don't output enough shots to scare single box infantry and Deadlyshot doesn't output enough damage for a pair of them to mow down anything that isn't cav (and then only one at a time). The 7 point module firing in tandem will unhorse a dragoon if all of them hit, which may be something to consider.
anyway, 6 damage on a jack is something to consider (that's one coll um gone). After two turns, you'll knock out a system. Against squish jacks (ironclad and slayer chasis) assuming you deal 12 damage over two turns, you can knock out both movement and the left arm (generally the useless one, unless its a defender/reaper). This is pretty great, unless mechanics are involved (and with colossals they generally always are). Still, pEiryss has some pretty good use against Warcasters for obvious reasons, so she can justify her cost. Not her about the snipers, though.
Against hordes, beast spirals have a bit more life to them, but knocking them out will cripple them much harder than a crippled system (loses a die off all attack or all damage rolls; inability to force hurts warlocks too) and thus cost the warlock 1 fury to heal it. This 1 fury could be an amazing asset (1 less transfer can make or break the game) or it could be utterly worthless. The heavy troll "chasis" has a 9 box spirit/mind, warp puppies have 9 box bodies (and that's their biggest spiral), titans have a 9 box spirit and an 8 box mind (still requires 3 shots), and the Carni/Ravi/Scythi has a 8 point mind and a 9 point spirit. Pretty much all these beasts need 3 hits to the same branch to cripple their spirit (which is the branch you'll want to be going for 99% of the time since it screws over locks), which may be a tall order. It doesn't help that pEiryss is particularly worthless against warlocks. I also don't know about the other beasts "chasises" (except the Wold Guardian, who has at least 10 in every area) and I don't feel like going through every character, so their vulnerability is up in the air at this point.
So, it might be useful, but it seems an incredibly situational application of 7 points outside of Warmachine armies. They'll still suffer from stupid menoth choir (moreso because they're not a unit, so A&H won't help much, and for some reason the Arcane Cannon isn't a ), LOS blocking ala clouds and junk, stacked concealment + cover bonus (makes even khador heavies almost impossible to hit without aiming), and from the bane of all of Retribution: .
Now if the Arcane Cannon had Arcane precision...
Oh, and Graglossals won't give a flying f***. You need 12 damage to take a Stormwall's arm and a set of guns off (he still has another plus an inevitable mechanic) 24 to take out the lightning pods, and you pretty much need to wreck it to get to the Cortex/Movement. This might be a decent boost once its stuck in combat and you can take advantage of its "never engaged in melee for the purposes of being shot at" rule to help your guys out, but its not really useful outside of that. For the sake of a reference, their 9 damage is slightly better than a Arcanist'ed heavy Myrm's average damage output on a boosted melee attack against an Arcane Shielded Stormwall.
EDIT: You know, since we're bringing up Myrm average MAT, the triple sniper + eiryss would be really awesome there. Knock out movement --> suddenly DEF 7. Also the damage they deal can make or break a Myrm's ability to kill a heavy, so there is a lot of use there as well. Unfortunately, you can't ever drop a beast's DEF in this manner so you're still living on a prayer, but the higher overall damage due to slightly lesser spirals VS typical jack boxes can still swing things in your favor.
Last edited by Blugger; 04-30-2013 at 11:17 PM.
I have never been satisfied with the Ghost Sniper's work on the table, and that's too bad because the fluff/model/artwork are amazing and I bought 2 of them during my first round of purchases. I'm hoping for a warcaster with some kind of passive buff for them because otherwise they will continue to be one of our coolest/most forgotten solos, imo.
pEiryss does have a place. As mentioned, she is not as useful against Hordes (although an accurate Phantom Seeker shot is still good for taking out support models) but against Warmachine she is at least as good as eEiryss in my opinion. The epic version is better at shutting down 'jacks and is of course more useful when you're facing an upkeep-heavy warcaster, but Disruptor Bolting a warcaster is like kicking him in the nuts and it is often game winning. And keep in mind that because she counts as a faction model she benefits from our spells and feats *cough* Ravyn *cough*. That is a pretty big deal.
Actually, yeah the phantom hunter into support models is a very good point.
She won't do much vs Skorne or Trolls (you need the MHSF to target all the models), but she can easily PEW PEW the Circle's Wilder and the Legion shepherd. She'll need help against Forsaken, though.
I don't have my cards anywhere near, but I'm pretty sure most jacks have movement boxes buried pretty deep under at least two columns. Not sure you can rely on snipers to take out movement.
Not sure it's reliable, but it's definitely possible.
I recognize that doing the 9 pts of damage for 7 points is just OK. But I think there is some worth to that by pass of the armor step. I do not feel an excessive need to convince anyone on this point. However, I think there are some beliefs here that I saw in passing that must be addressed.
1 - that Eyriss 2's bolt can remove Krea's animus. This isn't going to happen. Assuming the Skorne player has drafted the list to combat shooting (which is just about the only reason to bring the Krea). If a Skorne player doesn't want you to bolt the Krea or the Shaman, you're not going to bolt the krea or the shaman. Shield guards are abundant and worth while to them so your one important bolt will not land where you want them. Makeda 3 brings 2 shield guard models before any beasts. Cyclops Brutes' animus makes them immune to knock down and if the slam distance is 3 or less, they wont even move so their shield guard is quite secure. Tiberion cannot be KD or even moved in any way. So unless the Skorne player makes a mistake, the bolt will not remove the Krea animus.
2 - Ossyan dispels animus with sword. Ossyan doesn't dispel animus. Also, if Ossyan is dispelling an anti shooting animus in Melee - then somone is about to have a really bad day.
On the original topic - I think these 3 combos OK with the Banshee as well. The following is the list of current heavy beasts that has 9 or less boxes in spirit so that Banshee KD followed by 9 points to spirit will prevent them from shaking that KD.
DireTroll Blitzer, Mauler, Bomber
Warpwolf stalker, feral
Satyr Gnarlhorn, Riphorn, Shadowhorn
Titan Cannoneer, Gladiator, Sentry
Just as a side note.
Unfortunately this is taking the use of 17 points of models on your side of the board to shut down one heavy for one turn (Banshee option). True it can only stand up and walk (or stand still and attack) but it is easy for the caster to heal one damage box during his turn. True, you could just hit it again and knock it down but you are going to have to contend with several other heavies that are closing in on you rapidly. The 'lock can always just abandon any plans with that beast and use it for transfers.
The closest model to this exchange is 12" away from the line of engagement. Some may say that this is a reasonably safe distance. Especially if the target you just neutered was the opfor's fast element.
Ofcourse any shield guard action also puts a hate-on on for this.
Also - anything on ironclad, centurion, crusader, or Mercenary Chassis will lose a weapon/shield arm in one round of shooting.
...if you're ruling everything else out because of shield guard, then why is the 9 dmg from your setup exempt? At that rate you're paying 7 pts for 0 dmg to target warjack....
I sense this discussion going down the inevitable path of "nope the skorne player has counters for absolutely everything... Except 2 snipers and Eiryss 1. And a banshee, apparently."
Edit::: it's also interesting how you say that the skorne player will be immune to knockdown, when it suits you to counter our potential arguments... And then move along, forgetting you just said that, and argue for the use of a banshee.
Last edited by KhaorvaK; 05-01-2013 at 10:06 AM.
I use this lovely little combo with rharn. Knock a beast down then put 9 points of damage on the spirt. That's the beast of of action for a round!
I've used this combo to soften up a target. The amount of resources you have to put into a heavy that already has 9 pts into it while it has an aspect or system out/nearly out is much less. You could say, charge 2 sentinels into it instead and redirect the rest of that squad to do something else. If those 2 sentinels don't kill it, they're leaving it a dented and bruised heap of almost dead.
i often use the snipers, not in the full package with 2+ peiryss but i usually use one in tandem with a MHA, MHA charges a heavy, hits and usually on an avarage roll does something of 6 to 10 damage, depending on what jack you are facing. then the sniper gets to ake a shot at the unengaged jack to hopefully knock out a system, doesn't always work but when it does you just crippled a 8 to 10 point heavy and traded one 2 point solo to do so (MHA will die, unless bot arms are crippled, not a big chance but happened to me once) and if movement is crippled i tend to ignore most melee jacks cause they will never catch me again. must confess this works a lot better against wm, i wouldn't try it against hordes cause even if you take out a spiral the warlock jus heals the beast for one and it functions normally.
Anyway, it seems to me that the Snipers + pEiryss combo has some versatility. It might not do more damage than Sentinels - or a Heavy with an Arcanist boost. Still, those three models are annoying support which can be turned on whatever threats you need removed (from support Solos to 'casters). Hiding behind the main lines and laying down a hail of fire can, at the very least, be pretty demoralising.
also although the sniper might not be that damaging the thing is, the damage is certain (if you hit) and you get to chose were you pt the damage against jacks/ beasts. every game i leave them out i tend to get a result were "just 1 more damage and that arcnode/ arm/ cortex would have been gone" only to have that model do something very annoying to me in it's next turn ( arc spells, shoot/ hit/kill one of my models) so you don't really take them for quantity of damage but more for quality. and as dagowit pointed out some models just don't take damage from ranged even if you hit them, wold guardian with buffs, devestators while at arm 25 usually shrug of most ranged attack and probably some more that i don't remember of the top. es we normally ignore buffs but not all of them and it is in these situations you are really glad you could take out a system before they reach you.