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  1. #1

    Default Guns and game balance

    OK now to be fair i havent completely read thru the pdfs yet...but ive skimmed and scanned and i keep coming to the same conclusion. Guns in IK suck. Looking at it from a purely damage per round basis you can get as many attacks as your bab allows with a bow or even a xbow(with rapid reload) The best u can hope to achieve with a gun is 1 shot every 2 rounds without dual wielding. Thats fine if the damage on a gun is significantly increased to that of a bow or xbow. But it doesnt seem that way. I must be missing something cause it doesnt make sense for guns to be so important to the world if a bow or xbow is better and cheaper. Please help me to understand this. I dont know if im overlooking a feat or something else. I realize there are some multibarreled guns but then your still looking at a loss of attacks per round. Even if u can shoot a 4 barreled gun as many times in a round as your BAB allows then u still lose those attacks next round when you reload. The loss of attacks doesnt seem to bad til later levels when your losing the extra attacks...
    Am i missing something or lookin at it the wrong way?

  2. #2

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    You are getting 2dX damage with a 19-20 x3 crit range. You are getting the crit multiplier of a longbow with the threat range of a crossbow and amped up damage dice to boot. I personally think the ability to do more damage per shot outweighs the ability to shoot more. Also Rapid Reload works for guns just like crossbows, making a reload for everything but a military rifle a move action.
    There are also some feats/gunmage spells in NQ #6 that made guns much nicer, for gunmages at least.
    Last edited by IvanTheLlama; 03-31-2010 at 01:37 AM.

  3. #3
    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    You are making the same mistake most people do: You look at raw numbers without putting them into context. The base assumption seems to be two people standing 30 feet from each other just tossing off shots. Well, sure, if you do that then firearms don't look quite as good for damage overall.

    But, placing them into the context of a real (heh) fight, the guy with the gun is going to be either moving into cover, coming out for only one shot at a time (rifle) or will be firing once then switching to a melee weapon as he closes (pistol).

    If the bowman stands out in the open waiting for an opportunity shot, then he will only get one shot off while receiving a much heavier hit for his trouble. And if the bowman moves and fires from cover he will only make one shot at a time like the rifleman. If the bowman fires then goes into melee, then he will only get one shot off before that happens, or will just stand there without a viable weapon or defense while the pistol shooter has already closed to melee range.

    If the bowman takes a full round of shots, his last few shots are less likely to hit, anyway. This means that while he is capable of generating more damage per round, using a worsening bonus means that he is unlikely to generate more damage per round. The gun weilder will use his best attack bonus for every shot, giving him the best chance of hitting hard each round.

    Just a few thoughts to consider before I head off to work.
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

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  4. #4

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    so rapid reload does work for guns.....that changes alot...also i realize that specific circumstances are goin to alter the ebb and flow of a battle...and i wasnt saying that a gun couldnt produce damage...just that from what i had read it seemed like guns couldnt produce damage on an even level to a bow or crossbow...especially considering that to use a gun u have to take an extra feat and dump alot more gold into gear. Obviously it would still be fun to play but for me even if my character is great if everytime we get into battle im sittin around with my thumb up my butt i get frustrated. if rapid reload does indeed work with guns then making them a move action means that your not losing an entire round of actions its alot better...and yes the crit range and multiplier on guns is great but regular damage isnt significantly higher....when considering that u might lose 2 to 3 attacks a round...giving up the extra attacks a round isnt a big deal since you are putting out more damage per shot...especially if you a gun mage and channeling spells for extra dice...i was more worried about losing an entire round just for reload....and as for rapid reload i read somewhere on these(or maybe the old forum) that it didnt apply to guns.
    I love guns and thats the reason for the question...im trying to come up with a character concept and would love to use guns but since i havent actually playtested this system yet(waiting on GM) i am not sure how well it will play.

    thanks for the help though guys!
    Last edited by hellfate; 03-31-2010 at 06:18 AM.

  5. #5
    Warrior Sirit1337's Avatar
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    Yeah, guns are supposed to be more prevalent in the IK world and an accepted reality. However, like most things that seem 'high-tech' it's should be viewed as more accesible magic, in a game sense. While the average peon is able to shoot a gun rather than wield a wand, the access is still mostly military in concept. The average joe would still use Bows or x-bows. And....HP are an approximation; back to Mr Avejoe, he probably only runs with 2-6 HP as is. Both bows and guns, and even a dagger, would take him out real easy. All stuff you probably know, just wanted to reiterate.
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    Don't forget about the firearm customization, more barrels more shots before needing to reload. Gunslingers in my game would carry double barreled pistols so they could fire two rounds in a row before changing weapons or when their BAB allowed it two bullets in a round w/o dual wielding.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Killj0y's Avatar
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    sweet dejavu of kathmandu! A guns vs. bows thread!

    I'll impart the wisdom that I gained many years ago the last time this fight broke out.

    The reason guns and bows are so similar yet so vastly different is so there is something to argue about.

    Each has enough strengths and weaknesses to make the choice between them less than acedemic and more than practical.

    Silent vs. loud
    Prone vs. standing
    1 round vs 2
    distance vs. speed

    you will go round and round and round on this topic and it will all come down to the same things. Depending on your situation and class build one of these is going to be better than the other. Which one varies based on that.

    Otherwise the guns are appropriate to the setting, do not overpower the existing technology and aren't the end all be all of combat.
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  8. #8
    Destroyer of Worlds Whimper's Avatar
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    No, Rapid Reload does not work for guns.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whimper View Post
    No, Rapid Reload does not work for guns.
    Why exactly? It seems silly that you can become so practiced that you can quickly reload a heavy crossbow, but not to toss a cartridge into a gun.

  10. #10
    Destroyer of Worlds stormwell's Avatar
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    Its to do with the way gunpowder works in the IK.

    You have a black powder and a red powder, combine the and watch the fireworks fly....ideally standing some distance away.

    This complicates loading a firearm a bit, complete pain for musket like weapons.

    They HAVE developed something akin to a cartridge (sp?), though these still need alot of work. Either trying to reload in a hurry, you're more likely to singe eyebrows and lose a few fingers than to fire another shot off.

    This explains the skill check rolls for reloading.

    Course, theres a few revolver style guns around which reduces the worry and need to reload. The Long Gunner's Repeating Rifle is a prime example, six shots and you can swap the wheel chamber (??) with a pre-loaded one.
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  11. #11
    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirit1337 View Post
    Yeah, guns are supposed to be more prevalent in the IK world and an accepted reality. However, like most things that seem 'high-tech' it's should be viewed as more accesible magic, in a game sense. While the average peon is able to shoot a gun rather than wield a wand, the access is still mostly military in concept. The average joe would still use Bows or x-bows. And....HP are an approximation; back to Mr Avejoe, he probably only runs with 2-6 HP as is. Both bows and guns, and even a dagger, would take him out real easy. All stuff you probably know, just wanted to reiterate.
    What do you mean by "average Joe?" The typical soldier, or anyone with some experience in a profession, sits around third level in the IK's. Meaning that they have 16 to 17 hp on average for a soldier, or 10 to 11 hp on average for the typical worker. A commoner would have 7 or 8 HP. A bowshot is more survivable for a soldier, but a firearm hit starts looking more sketchy.
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

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  12. #12

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    while i understand the strengths of of a gun it just seemed like bows or crossbows would be more powerful...especially at higher level and during long drawn out fights....my main concern is when i roll up a character...can i roll up a combat based gun wielding character that doesnt have to sit out every other round to reload( without spending alot of gold to buy a bunch of guns and just quickdraw) if not then i would come up with a new concept for my character.

    Im not trying to say one is better than the other...just seems like the reload times make guns slightly less powerful, therefore illogical for the masses to want them. Also want to make sure im not missing anything obvious that should change my opinion. I just dont know that i would want to spend the extra feats and gold to use a gun and then sit every other round out as opposed to just rolling up yet another generic fighter(for a combat based character).

    Its lookin more and more like ill roll up a crafting type character...maybe even look into advancing firearm tech(obviously not in a real world way...and just for our personal game, per gm approval). At least then maybe i can come up with some creative ways to use guns or modify guns. The mutli-barrel and similiar guns would put off the wasted rounds but still eventually gonna have to sit out at least 1 round to reload and if reloading multiple barrels then its usually even longer. I am gonna look into The Long Gunner's Repeating Rifle as a possible weapon also...dont recall seeing that one anywhere but i was mostly looking at the pistols. Thanx for the help and any suggestions on how to make a combat based gun character with less down time are more than welcomed

  13. #13
    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    To become really useful as a weapon, the character has to invest into using that weapon. This is typically done with feats, but it is also accomplished by taking prestige classes. The points I mentioned earlier hold true for any non-specialized character from 1st to 20th level.

    Truth be told, 1st level characters are unlikely to be able to afford firearms in the IK's, therefore bows and crossbows are much more likely to be used. The financial limitations of firearms start to disappear at roughly 4th level, as characters tend to get quite a bit of compensation for their actions at this level. Soldiers, of course, never need worry about money or costs of weapons.

    As I mentioned earlier, real combat isn't standing at 10 paces plinking away at each other. But I won't get into that, other than to say that each situation will determine which weapon or tactic will work the best. I have to say that battlefield tactics make firearms far more attractive than bows. On an individual scale, it depends on the character and their feat selection and preference.

    Im not trying to say one is better than the other...just seems like the reload times make guns slightly less powerful, therefore illogical for the masses to want them. Also want to make sure im not missing anything obvious that should change my opinion. I just dont know that i would want to spend the extra feats and gold to use a gun and then sit every other round out as opposed to just rolling up yet another generic fighter(for a combat based character).
    Just a nitpick, if you are saying guns are slightly less powerful, then aren't you saying bows are better?

    The fighter will still need feats to make a bow or crossbow really potent. If he doesn't, then they will remain roughly as powerful as a firearm. In the end, feat selection and character preference will determine which weapon works best for the fighter character. For me, flavor wise, the firearm gives so much to the game that it is always included with my characters. If I tweak him to use a firearm really well (pistoleer or rifleman PrC), then his damage output will look really good, and is comparable to a bowman specialized fighter.
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

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  14. #14
    Destroyer of Worlds Psychomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killj0y View Post
    sweet dejavu of kathmandu! A guns vs. bows thread!

    I know! It's 2006 all over again!

    Glad to see these threads though- means we have new players.
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  15. #15

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    LOL fair enuff on the nitpick....what i should have said is that i realize that ultimately its goin to come down to a matter of preference. I'm lookin purely at numbers and tactics at this point, i wont be developing a style for the character until i have a more clearly defined concept. I guess for me the advantage in bows or crossbows would be not losing a round to reloading(i know i keep comin back to this), for me that takes me out of the game for a round and i wont have fun playing like that. Although i have never really gotten into bows or crossbows either. I also dont know the full extent of character options because he wont let me read the campaign (witchfire). I dont really know whats allowed in that. I would really like to play a gun based character though so if anyone has any suggestions please let me know. I did look into gunmage a bit and just arent that interested in it, at least not at this point.

    Thanx for the help again...i apreciate any feedback...even if it is calling me out on stuff.

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    Destroyer of Worlds stormwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellfate View Post
    I am gonna look into The Long Gunner's Repeating Rifle as a possible weapon also...dont recall seeing that one anywhere but i was mostly looking at the pistols.
    It was in an issue of the No Quarter mag, PM me and I can give you the details.

    EDIT: Gun Mages get a spell called Arcane Loading, it basically removes alot of the hassle with regards to relaoding your gun.

    EDIT No.2: You have to enable PMs in order to send any, by default its switched off for some reason.

    Just go to User CP, then look under 'Edit Options'.
    Last edited by stormwell; 04-01-2010 at 04:34 AM.
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  17. #17
    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    Then there's the golf bag approach popularized by my friend who played a ranger/rifleman. Simply have a bag with a dozen or so rifles in it.
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

    Killj0y: "I've always considered that PC's are a sort of thaumavore that subsist on a diet of iron rations and murder."

  18. #18

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    Yeah ive been thinkin and i might be able to make a character with a rifle...or in that case 20 or so, LOL. A friend pointed out something that hadnt really occured to me either. The rounds would probably go alot faster and most of the rest of the group would have to spend rounds reloading also( im sure most will use guns) so its not like id be sitting there for 5 or 10 minutes doin nothing, so the round to reload wouldnt be too bad. And the rifle damage is pretty decent.

  19. #19
    Destroyer of Worlds Killj0y's Avatar
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    This is going to be my riff on guns as they apply to the IK.

    You have to throw out any mindset ideals you might have brought to the party with reguards to guns. The firearms you get here are not like anything you'll have dealt with before and can't really be played the same way.

    If you're a modern player you're not going to get the kind of running gun battles common to a sort of dirty harry maybe he did maybe he didn't spray and pray firearm.

    If you come from a western setting the gun isn't the leveler, the equalizer or the peacemaker.

    Those of us who find the future more comfortable will understand that a pistol is in fact not a substitute for a good blaster at your side.

    Guns in the Ik are a quasi-magical amalgamation of styles and concepts from a world that evolved without classical chemistry. They are huge, heavy mothers who chuck mini-balls the size of a fist in anime style comical bullet-time renderings and hit with the power of a runaway luggage cart.

    When you fire a blasting powder weapon you're holding onto the blunt end of a kind of mildly controled dynamite and hoping/praying that the bullet decides to come out the business end like it should. More a sort of man portable cannon than a firearm these monsters are slow and ponderous, the better to contemplate the horrors you inflict on someone when one of these boys actually hits.

    The few weapons in this world that can deliver anything like volume of fire are viewed with a kind of awe as a sound like ripping sailcloth accompanies the death of you and a dozen of your closest friends on the battlefield.

    Use the fear, be the lone gunman. If the mechanics don't support your view of how lethal guns should be then pick apart the social contract we have with the weapon. A dagger to the throat is an invitation to injury. A gun to someone's head is a death threat plain and simple no matter what the rules say and any NPC or PC who react differently simply because it "only" does 2d6 damage is metagaming plain and simple.
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    If you are playing Pathfinder, Vital Strike is just GOLD with any firearms. Specially if you are a Rifleman.


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  21. #21
    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    Vital strike + Rifleman PrC makes John F. Kennedy cry.
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

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    Destroyer of Worlds vytzka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killj0y View Post
    This is going to be my riff on guns as they apply to the IK.

    <snip awesome>
    I want to sign up for your newsletter (and I'm going to give a link to your post to anyone in my IK games who want to have anything to do with guns).

  23. #23
    Destroyer of Worlds Sobek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvanTheLlama View Post
    Why exactly? It seems silly that you can become so practiced that you can quickly reload a heavy crossbow, but not to toss a cartridge into a gun.
    Agreed. In fact, I've never met a GM who hasn't allowed the feat to be applied to firearms.
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    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    I would allow a firearms specific version to work, but not the crossbow one. Having that one feat give a bonus to such a large number of weapons seems a bit overpowered. In fact, one for all pistols and then one for all rifles doesn't seem completely out of line, as the crossbow feat only covers, what, three different weapons?
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Gun_Nut View Post
    I would allow a firearms specific version to work, but not the crossbow one. Having that one feat give a bonus to such a large number of weapons seems a bit overpowered. In fact, one for all pistols and then one for all rifles doesn't seem completely out of line, as the crossbow feat only covers, what, three different weapons?
    You technically need to choose what type of crossbow for rapid reload (hand/light/heavy) so the way we have been using it was just add pistols/rifles to that list. I suppose you could differentiate between military or non-military, but nothing else applying to firearms does.

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    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    Ah, I've never used it. I thought they covered them all at once. Single type from a list makes sense.
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

    Killj0y: "I've always considered that PC's are a sort of thaumavore that subsist on a diet of iron rations and murder."

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    Umm... it's an RPG right?

    Introduce the concept of self preservation and/or fear of pain.
    I've been in a variety of games where guns have been used as social modifiers (and I'm not talking about Stalin's method either).
    Pointing a big'uns gun at someone and saying "proceed and die" should end most situations. Having a big'uns gun pointed at you with someone saying "I reckon I can give you a second neck and help you with all that wasted brain space" should also cause most to give pause.
    This isn't to say it should always work but when one side has a clear/evident advantage, sometimes it's ok for NPCs to slink away and sometimes it's also ok for PCs to realize that trying to find another answer is the correct path.

    ... wait... I just read what killjoy said... I like the cut of your jib.

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    i would like to start by saying hi belive it or not i never looked ta the IK part of the forums
    i have been playing IK (wont play in any other "fantasy" setting) since witchfire collected ed.

    oninofro & killj0y hit the nails on the head .. cheers to you guys!
    also if your playing a ROLL-PLAYing game use a bow, if your playing a ROLE-PLAYing game take a gun.

    as for cost of ammo, its half the cost now 508AR due to the state of war in the IK (mentioned in NQ #?)
    not to menton you can loot ammo from lots a places or ya just spend some of the down time inbetween adventures "crafting" it.
    ya have to waste feats anyway .. why not leadership and get lackeys that make ammo for you.

    i have played a character using a rifle for a few years (it got merdilated last fall ... .players note: a bandoleer of (9)granades & enemys that use electro shot .. not the safest combo) & im just now starting a gunfighter/pistoleer.
    i solved the reload problem with more guns, lots more guns.
    i started with a monk till i met the pre-reqs for pistoleer.
    take only a great coat and load up with multi shot pistols, shoot till they are empty, drop em or throw em (1d4+STR dmg), next round quickdraw ... repeat
    if combat lasts long enough that i run out of loaded guns i am now not emcumbered enough to use all the crazy monk stuff (fluffy of blows, crazy dodge,fast movement...)
    none of witch do loads of damage ... but are fun to play

    have fun with it is the best advice

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  29. #29
    Destroyer of Worlds moorg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Gun_Nut View Post
    Then there's the golf bag approach popularized by my friend who played a ranger/rifleman. Simply have a bag with a dozen or so rifles in it.
    Do it with pistols and Quick Draw for the Derringer Meryl approach from Trigun.

    .......

    As for the guns versus bows debate, it all comes down to the level of play. For lower level characters, the gun is more efficient. At higher levels the bow is more efficient once you start getting those attacks adding up, eventually overtaking the higher damage of the gun.

    However I don't know about you, but I play a lot more lower level games than I play higher level games.

    But as always, take the weapon that your character would have.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Killj0y's Avatar
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    I'll take a curtain call on that one. Thank you all for your praise. You have made my morning.
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    This is just a small digression, but the next time I hear someone drag up the whole "It's ROLE-playing Not ROLL-playing" argument, I might just do something irrational. Like punch a nun in the face.

    Different people enjoy different amounts of dice and numbers in their games, and as long as nobody's ruining it for everybody, I don't give a flip whether I'm ROLLING or ROLE-ING. That argument is catchy because, lol, rhymes. But it's no more persuasive than the "WarMACHINE, not WarINFANTRY, get with it" battle call on the minis forum.
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  32. #32
    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    Frustrated, Whimper?
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

    Killj0y: "I've always considered that PC's are a sort of thaumavore that subsist on a diet of iron rations and murder."

  33. #33

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    I think im gonna be goin with ranger(scout) and then into rifleman....probly gonna carry a bag full of rifles and quick draw( that does work wiht them right) and go that route til i can get a repeating rifle...but im still looking and researching...gotta finish the current game we got goin before we start this one...and there may be yet another in between.

    As for roll-playing versus role-playing....they are really one and the same the games require you to roll dice and if u suck u arent bringing as much to the game, therefore arent pulling your weight. But i do agree that that character's preferences need to be taken into account but since i havent actually created a character yet i can make him whatever i need to.

  34. #34
    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    The Quick Draw feat works for any weapon, hellfate. That includes the more "exotic" ones in the Iron Kingdoms.
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

    Killj0y: "I've always considered that PC's are a sort of thaumavore that subsist on a diet of iron rations and murder."

  35. #35
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    You don't need a bag full of guns to keep up a high rate of fire. One of my friends made up a rifleman character (back before we came out with the IKCG and IKWG) who had a pair of rifles and a little assistant. He had adopted an orphaned girl and trained her to reload his rifles. He'd fire one rifle while she reloaded the other then they would swap guns every round. Since she didn't have to have line of sight to the enemy, she could spend the whole combat in full cover while the rifleman just poked his head and shoulders up to fire.
    Brian Brousseau, Inkthrall
    Follow the development of my newest RPG project, The Impressionist System (formerly "Van Gogh"), at Wooden Pencil Sketches. (It's not about painting...)

  36. #36
    Destroyer of Worlds Whimper's Avatar
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    I've heard of people taking the Leadership feat just to get a gun-loading cohort. The problem with this is as follows: what sort of action is "swapping guns".

    Drawing a gun from your person is a move action, without the Quick Draw feat. Presumably taking a gun from a nearby ally would be treated similarly. The long and short of it is that it gets awfully complicated to work this exchange, and both participants have to remain still. No moving, no hiding, no standing up from prone. You're just too busy. Furthermore, since reloading rifles takes two standard actions, you can only ever really glean an extra round's worth of fire out of this process. Eventually you and the ally both have to stop and just sit reloading.

    Here's how I work the exchange in my games:

    Round 1:
    PC:
    A) Standard action to fire,
    B) Move action to hand off weapon.
    C) Quick Draw to take weapon from nearby ally.

    Ally:
    A) Quick Draw to take gun from PC.
    B) Move action to hand off loaded second weapon.
    C) Standard action to reload the empty gun (first of two standard actions required).

    Round 2: (PC delays initiative until just after ally).
    Ally:
    A) Standard action to reload (second of two)
    B) Move action to hand off loaded gun to PC.
    C) Quick Draw to take empty weapon from PC.

    PC:
    A) Quick draw to take loaded weapon from Ally
    B) Move action to hand off empty weapon
    C) Standard action to fire.

    Round 3:
    Both the Ally and the PC have empty guns. At a minimum, they'll both need to spend the next two rounds reloading.
    _______________________________________
    This is the way the world ends.

  37. #37
    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    A cohort with the Rifleman feat can reload a military rifle as a single standard action. It takes a move action to pick one up, and a free action to drop one. It is also, of course, a standard action to fire one.

    The loader only needs two feats: Quick Draw and Rifleman. A few ranks in craft(small arms) doesn't hurt, either.

    So here's how it could work. The sniper fires from cover, then uses a move action to set his rifle nearby in a pre-arranged "empty" spot. He then expends a free action to quick draw a second rifle that is ready and nearby in a "loaded" spot.

    The loader is laying down in full cover right next to the sniper. The loader quick draws the expended rifle (free action) from the "empty" spot, loads it with a standard action, then sets it back in the spot the two have agreed is the "loaded" position.

    Thus, the sniper can keep up a continuous barrage of sniper shots. If and when the sniper decides to shift to a new position (to ensure no one finds him and ruins his sniper ability), the two of them move off together and set up a new blind.

    Simple, really. It only requires a cohort that is a 3rd level fighter to pull off (first level, if the fighter is human).
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

    Killj0y: "I've always considered that PC's are a sort of thaumavore that subsist on a diet of iron rations and murder."

  38. #38

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    interesting

  39. #39
    Combatant Celuuni's Avatar
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    One thing that is confusing me on this thread is that in L&L most rifles are shown to be breechloaders. Is this about breechloaders or muskets?

  40. #40
    Destroyer of Worlds The_Gun_Nut's Avatar
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    Breechloaders. Muskets are harder to load.

    If you've never loaded one in real life, I'll just say that the best loaders can fire three shots a minute. And that's without the pressures of combat, where someone is shooting back at you. In typical combat, soldiers fired twice a minute.

    The Iron Kingdoms weapons are much quicker and easier to load.
    There is no such thing as "Overkill."
    Only "Open Fire" and "I need to reload."

    Killj0y: "I've always considered that PC's are a sort of thaumavore that subsist on a diet of iron rations and murder."

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