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  1. #1

    Default its retribution a jack faction??

    Ret has never been a really popular faction among my friends, but one of them has start with it and looking how he plays and almost all list i find in this forum I realize Vyros is the only kaster who can bring 3 or more jack at the battle field
    Even Ossyan, with 7 focus and 2 spells for his battlegroup it´s play with only 1 jack most of the time (hypnos)

    Is it because infantry is to much good in this faction? aren´t ret jacks good enough for the points it cost? or may be Ret casters are really focus hungry for share it with jacks??

    I like ret jacks, so with kasters are the ones who can bring more jacks???

  2. #2
    Eater of Brains currentlyunknown's Avatar
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    In short, no. The casters have spells to cast that are important to their style, there isn't a ton of focus help either for the casters or that spread around focus outside of casters, nor are there static offensive buffs (choir) that really improve jacks.

    Vyros2 can play more jacks than most however, and can reasonably get lights to hit like heavies if you go that route.

  3. #3

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    There's a few reasons for this.
    1) Myrmidons tend to be pretty focus hungry and expensive. The one's most used are the Phoenix (10 pts), Banshee (10pts), Discordia (10pts) and Hypnos (with Ossy only, 9 pts), and at PS17 at the highest (19 with a 1 point solo that increases they're costs). So right off the bat, none of them are super melee powerhouses and if you want them to go toe-to-toe with other factions 'jacks in melee they need to be fully loaded. That being said;

    2) Our infantry is amazing. Like our myrmidons, its expensive (our cheapest max unit is 7 points), but they're some of the best in the game. Halbs, MHSF, Sentinals, and Invictors are amazing units with very strong UAs, so it becomes a question of how to spend those 10-point chunks; a jack thats going to need probably two focus or more a turn to be effective or a unit that needs little to no help to be effective.

    3) Our casters like using their own focus. There's a few reasons for this. One of the big ones is that most of our casters are mid or frontline casters. We don't have a Harby or Haley that can sit at the back and still be as effective as if they were farther up. Even Rahn is going to want to be close to the middle to take advantage of Force Field or use spells (remember, our arc nodes are 6, 9, and 10 points, so he's probably only going to have two at most and they'll die eventually). So all of our casters want to have a least a little camp most of the time, especially given their lack of built-in defensive mechanics like stealth, etc. In addition, we tend to have pretty full spell lists; Rahn wants to be casting as much as possible, Ossyan and Kaelyssa each have 4 upkeeps (which they'll probably want at least three of out at any given time), Ravyn has one upkeep going all the time and wants to be buying attacks, as does Garryth. Our two strongest 'jack casters are pVyros and eVyros and they're only focus 6 (and both are going to have at least one upkeep going pretty much all game).
    Last edited by Hubert J. Farnsworth; 08-13-2013 at 07:02 AM.
    "Most Storm Knight standards had more eloquent mottos, often long sayings related to honor, duty, or valor or even quotes from kings or the wisdom of the ascendants, but the Malcontents' motto consisted of a single word.

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  4. #4
    Eater of Brains Delta57Dash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregaL View Post
    Ret has never been a really popular faction among my friends, but one of them has start with it and looking how he plays and almost all list i find in this forum I realize Vyros is the only kaster who can bring 3 or more jack at the battle field
    Even Ossyan, with 7 focus and 2 spells for his battlegroup it´s play with only 1 jack most of the time (hypnos)

    Is it because infantry is to much good in this faction? aren´t ret jacks good enough for the points it cost? or may be Ret casters are really focus hungry for share it with jacks??

    I like ret jacks, so with kasters are the ones who can bring more jacks???
    You CAN bring more jacks with practically anyone, but it's not the norm (cue Kallas).

    Kaelyssa, Ossyan, and Rahn can run a good number of 'jacks, but they won't have much focus to play around with if they do, and they generally like slinging spells around. If you really want to run a bunch of 'jacks, say, 7 or 8, you can pick up eVyros and a bunch of Griffons and go to town.

    In general, our 'jacks are expensive for their punch and not terribly accurate. However, they are fantastic support pieces and have a lot of special rules that make them well worth their cost. Many of my friends would kill for the Phoenix, and the Griffon is a fantastic piece for only 4 points.

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    You could always bring Hydras if you want to bring more. Load them up first turn and then use your spells and focus for your Phoenix/Discordia/Banshee. I've had a game where I had 2 Hydras and a Banshee or Phoenix and it worked pretty well. In the end though your best bet is to bring infantry/solos to the party because we currently don't have Jack casters like Cygnar/Cryx. I stand in awe of Craye or Darius for their effective Jack management/boosts.

  6. #6
    Eater of Brains currentlyunknown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DornRedeyes View Post
    I stand in awe of Craye or Darius for their effective Jack management/boosts.
    Of note, speaking generally, jack casters are a lot like assassin casters. Towards the bottom of commonly seen placing high at large events. This could be because they're not bad, or because they're harder to run than other options, or that they have matchup issues, or something else entirely. But it is a general fact.

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    Spells that grant auto charges/run and boosted attacks, giving all jacks in your battlegroup Cavalry rules..... Not to mention Jack Marshal abilities that grant the jack some serious fire power. (aka gun mages). What do we have that can compare to that. We have Synergy on eVyros (which is awesome but only really gets going if you have Griffon spam) and Drive Pronto or Drive Reroll.

    PS, I know I sound like I'm ranting but that really isn't it at all. Cygnar and Cryx have great Jack casters and I hope one day we can also get some jack love.
    Last edited by DornRedeyes; 08-13-2013 at 08:35 AM.

  8. #8
    Eater of Brains currentlyunknown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DornRedeyes View Post
    Spells that grant auto charges/run and boosted attacks, giving all jacks in your battlegroup Cavalry rules..... Not to mention Jack Marshal abilities that grant the jack some serious fire power. (aka gun mages). What do we have that can compare to that. We have Synergy on eVyros (which is awesome but only really gets going if you have Griffon spam) and Drive Pronto or Drive Reroll.

    PS, I know I sound like I'm ranting but that really isn't it at all. Cygnar and Cryx have great Jack casters and I hope one day we can also get some jack love.
    I think you're missing the point. I don't really want a caster like Kraye, Darius, or even Morty. None of them really work in a competitive sense (though Kraye did win HC a few years ago). I'd rather someone like Syntherion, or the ability to brick like Trolls.

  9. #9
    Eater of Brains Phantasmagorium's Avatar
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    I bring, at most, two Phoenidae with Rahn, because the extra arc node is hard to argue with. Ossy either gets Disco or a Phoenix (I'm always wishing I could bring both, but then I get less Sentinels and Halberdiers, so it's a fight every time). We also have some killer solos that we almost never want to be without, in the form of Sylys, Eiryss/Narn and Arcanists. Lady A & Holt are just as wanted almost all the time.

    Also, like Farnsworth mentioned, we do not have back-line casters. Rahn is as close as it gets, thanks to his decent ranges (+2 from Sylys who should always be with Rahn, +2 more on feat turn.. but only when he doesn't arc), but Force Field is a lot less useful if you do.
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  10. #10

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    I've always been kind of surprised that Ret wasn't designed as a 'jack faction, what with the super high tech and limited manpower. Instead they decided to go with almost all elite infantry to play on the whole long lifespan=more training thing.
    "Most Storm Knight standards had more eloquent mottos, often long sayings related to honor, duty, or valor or even quotes from kings or the wisdom of the ascendants, but the Malcontents' motto consisted of a single word.

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    I'm not saying I want those abilities at all. But what about natural abilities more in keeping with the Elves. How about a caster who gives Native Pathfinder/Hunter to the battlegroup. Or abilities like Blessed Weapons. I'm not the greatest idea guy I'll admit. I'm not looking for Cavalry myrmidons or copy of other casters. I think the Elves of Ios should stand on their own and get their own unique spells/abilities.

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    Eater of Brains Phantasmagorium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DornRedeyes View Post
    *snip*... Native ... Hunter to the battlegroup ...*snip*
    Vyros? Is that you buddy? Okay, maybe it's not exactly the same, but I'd say 360 vision makes up for not ignoring cover/concealment on ranged attacks, and Griffons don't have those silly gun things anyways.
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  13. #13

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    I'd love to see some shooty lights (mayhaps from Vyre? Get on it Ossyan). But otherwise I'm quite happy with where our myrmidons are at (especially once Imperitus hits). They all have their places (except maybe the Sphinx, I haven't found much use for it lately) and do some stuff really well.
    "Most Storm Knight standards had more eloquent mottos, often long sayings related to honor, duty, or valor or even quotes from kings or the wisdom of the ascendants, but the Malcontents' motto consisted of a single word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by currentlyunknown View Post
    I think you're missing the point. I don't really want a caster like Kraye, Darius, or even Morty. None of them really work in a competitive sense (though Kraye did win HC a few years ago). I'd rather someone like Syntherion, or the ability to brick like Trolls.
    I'd take Bart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantasmagorium View Post
    Vyros? Is that you buddy? Okay, maybe it's not exactly the same, but I'd say 360 vision makes up for not ignoring cover/concealment on ranged attacks, and Griffons don't have those silly gun things anyways.
    Vyros doesn't give NATIVE pathfinder...he has a spell that he casts (for half his focus btw and not upkeepable) that gives just pathfinder. Darius can (for free) place one of his jacks 1 inch and auto stand up from knockdown + he can cast a spell that gives free charge/run and boosted melee attack rolls? Or how about Craye having native Cavalry rules to all jacks + spell that doubles the base speed of a jack?

    The ignoring clouds/cover and concealment is nice, but I've rarely had a battle where I was wishing I could see behind me. (360 degree view also means you can't get free strikes if something moves behind you)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelker41 View Post
    I'd take Bart.
    BART WITH HYPERION AND BANSHEE.

    ...

    I'll be in my bunk.

  17. #17
    Eater of Brains currentlyunknown's Avatar
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    I'd take Bart as well. Though most of the jack casters currently constructed would work really well out of faction. The problem is more the specific casters in faction from a design standpoint.

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    I'll just add that while our warcasters are generally not great at running multiple heavy melee 'jacks, we do have a good 'Jack Marshal in the Sentinel Officer, a solo that can allocate a focus on top of the 'jack marshal's boost, and a few 'jacks who work well while marshaled anyway. Just saying, we have the tools. Here's one of my favorite lists as an example:

    Ossyan -6
    *Discordia 4

    Sentinels/UA 11
    *Daemon 9
    *Daemon 9

    2 Arcanists 2

    But Banshees and Manticores can also work well with the Sentinel officer (although it's obviously pricey). In fact a marshaled 'jack can even be almost as good in melee as a battlegroup 'jack because Pronto saves the focus that it would otherwise have to pay to charge.
    Last edited by MMMMK; 08-13-2013 at 11:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMMMK View Post
    I'll just add that while our warcasters are generally not great at running multiple heavy melee 'jacks, we do have a good 'Jack Marshal in the Sentinel Officer, a solo that can allocate a focus on top of the 'jack marshal's boost, and a few 'jacks who work well while marshaled anyway. Just saying, we have the tools. Here's one of my favorite lists as an example:

    Ossyan -6
    *Discordia 4

    Sentinels/UA 11
    *Daemon 9
    *Daemon 9

    2 Arcanists 2

    But Banshees and Manticores can also work well with the Sentinel officer (although it's obviously pricey). In fact a marshaled 'jack can even be almost as good in melee as a battlegroup 'jack because Pronto saves the focus that it would otherwise have to pay to charge.
    I confess I've never used jack marshal's before. There is no limit to how many can be marshalled? Does the bonus apply to every jack in the marshall's battlegroup?

    For instance, could I drive pronto 2 jacks per activation? Does each one benefit from the jack marshall boost? I was under the impression that a marshal could only have one jack tied to it and I've certainly never seen any with multiples.

    From your example:

    I have a sentinel UA, he drives pronto one of his Daemons (daemon full advances up), then Drive Pronto's his second Daemon (assuming both checks succeed) then uses the Arcanists Power Booster to grant that Daemon a point of focus. The first Daemon could then activate, use the point of focus to charge a target and then use the Marshal's boost to hit or damage? Then other Daemon could also use the Marshal boost to charge?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DornRedeyes View Post
    Vyros doesn't give NATIVE pathfinder...he has a spell that he casts (for half his focus btw and not upkeepable) that gives just pathfinder. Darius can (for free) place one of his jacks 1 inch and auto stand up from knockdown + he can cast a spell that gives free charge/run and boosted melee attack rolls? Or how about Craye having native Cavalry rules to all jacks + spell that doubles the base speed of a jack?
    Ah, you must be thinking of the other Vyros.
    The original one does not have native Pathfinder, true, but he does have a spell costing a third of his focus which not only grants Pathfinder but also adds +2 SPD. The threat range of a SPD 8 Phoenix with Reach is pretty impressive. Manticores moving through forests to lay down Covering Fire 20" from their starting point is also pretty entertaining.

    Now to answer the OP:
    Most Retribution players posting here have trouble running more than two 'jacks per 'caster. Sometimes untraditional lists emerge. Kallas is well known for running 'jack heavy and bakaryu posted a pVyros list (I think the thread was called something like "pVyros - a competitive Warcaster" with a lot of 'jacks. So 'jack heavy is a possibility with the right mentality/list.

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    I would imagine a list with 3 Hydras would be interesting, not that any Ret player here would own 3. :P

    I might come to think of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DornRedeyes View Post
    I confess I've never used jack marshal's before. There is no limit to how many can be marshalled? Does the bonus apply to every jack in the marshall's battlegroup?

    For instance, could I drive pronto 2 jacks per activation? Does each one benefit from the jack marshall boost? I was under the impression that a marshal could only have one jack tied to it and I've certainly never seen any with multiples.

    From your example:

    I have a sentinel UA, he drives pronto one of his Daemons (daemon full advances up), then Drive Pronto's his second Daemon (assuming both checks succeed) then uses the Arcanists Power Booster to grant that Daemon a point of focus. The first Daemon could then activate, use the point of focus to charge a target and then use the Marshal's boost to hit or damage? Then other Daemon could also use the Marshal boost to charge?
    Marshalls can control 2 jacks. You rarely see two since then killing a squishy UA or solo means significant decrease in power losing the drive or the Marshall altogether.

    Bonuses do apply to all jacks. Drive Pronto lets you take a single command and move both jacks.

    Jack Marshall's also allow each jack to charge, boost or buy an attack by being in their command once per turn. So yup, your example checks out (though you do only need one test, which either Vyross can allow them to auto pass IIRC)

    You could also activate a Daemon, who moves up and shoots. Then activate Sentinels, who Prontos the first daemon back out of the way and the second daemon up towards a new unit to do something else. Sentinels charge up and kill the clumped dudes, and then the second daemon gets to do something sweet. There's some cool stuff and Sentinels Daemon make a really interesting and efficient package which can catch some people off guard.

    Barakiel has a thread in the 9 voices about the pVyross tier where you get two Sentinels with UA. Some people have tried taking the non tier with 2 daemons being marshalled by 1 sent, but it doesn't really seem worth taking a few solos to put all your eggs in that basket. Maybe with some defensive tech like an Artificer to babysit the Officer, or taking some if the high output solos like MHA or something... but double dawn guard seems the best way to make.the most out of them. But it is really pretty efficient, I think you could stick them in Garryth or Ossyan pretty easily.
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  23. #23
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    My favorite and best performing tournament list ever is Kaelyssa with Disco, Phoenix, AND a Banshee. Sounds nutty, but it does work.

    Retribution works much better using their heavies as "2nd or 3rd wave" pieces IMO. After the tarpit clears out things you can usually keep shooting until you face to commit a heavy to melee, giving you that finish off piece or zone holding presence. Nobody except Vyros2 really leads with their Myrmidons as a first wave.

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    I never considered using the Pronto to move jacks back....almost like a Jack version of Sprint I love it. I'm glad you told me about only needing to do the one command check for all jacks. Still so much to learn in Ret-Fu. I think I'm still a white belt.

  25. #25
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    No, ret is NOT a jack faction, not by any stretch of the imagination.

    We have decent jacks and one caster who is close to a "jack" caster. But our strength is in infantry and solo's.
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    Now there's an idea. A Warcaster that makes the FA of all solo's FA/U. I'll bring 10x Mage Hunter Assassins, 10x Ghost Snipers, Eiryss, Narn and Nayl. And what the hell, I'll bring one Chimera.

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    What is the defination of 'jack faction' btw?

    eVyros (and p for some degree) can run more than average number of jacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crushanator View Post
    Marshalls can control 2 jacks. You rarely see two since then killing a squishy UA or solo means significant decrease in power losing the drive or the Marshall altogether.
    While you're right about the solos, I have the sneaking feeling that a couple of lights marshalled by a UA might be worth a go. You lose the Drive when the Officer dies, but not the Marshalling; the unit leader takes over as the new Marshal and, well, Field Promotion is a thing.

    I don't know that I'd ever play as 'jack heavy as I used to with my Cryx, but I might be tempted by two heavies and two lights in the right list. Maybe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinegulf View Post
    What is the defination of 'jack faction' btw?

    eVyros (and p for some degree) can run more than average number of jacks.
    Menoth and Convergence are 'jack factions. In that they have the tools to run multiple 'jacks with multiple warcasters efficiently.

    For Menoth, the Choir and Vassal means that their 'jacks rely a lot less on 'casters for support.

    For Convergence, the Induction Node and Corollary make them have focus for days, regardless of 'caster.

    Additionally, many of their 'casters are backline casters, who like to sit back and watch rather than be up front and slinging spells. Ret 'casters tend to like spending their focus, so they generally give out less.

    Granted, Arcanists are a thing, and they are wonderful. But +2 melee damage or a free focus if you are empty doesn't give you the same self-sufficiency as choir/induction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DornRedeyes View Post
    I never considered using the Pronto to move jacks back....almost like a Jack version of Sprint I love it. I'm glad you told me about only needing to do the one command check for all jacks. Still so much to learn in Ret-Fu. I think I'm still a white belt.
    AFAIK you need to make a CMD check to Drive each 'jack, so that's two per turn. Don't forget, though, that the Standard Bearer allows a reroll on failed CMD checks, meaning that you'll fail a Pronto check about 1/144 times, so it's a pretty reliable trick. If you DO fail the drive check, though, then the 'jack cannot benefit from the marshal that turn (unless you already activated the 'jack, of course). Usually I'll do hit and run shooting with the Daemons in the beginning if I have some good targets and late game they can be used for throws/slams (again, Pronto helps out a lot here) or to soften a hard target with their Blessed fists. If your opponent leaves their caster within 2" of a 'jack or other low defense/high arm target then you can pull off some classy assassinations with Ossyan's feat (two pow 12s, one pow 14, and one pow 13 all with 4 dice to damage).

    And I'll add that the Sentinel UA is usually very well protected between line of sight blocking, Quicken (if you're running Ossyan), Defensive Line and Disco's Imprint. That's Def 14, Arm 19 with 5 wounds and lots of models to block LoS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMMMK View Post
    AFAIK you need to make a CMD check to Drive each 'jack, so that's two per turn. Don't forget, though, that the Standard Bearer allows a reroll on failed CMD checks, meaning that you'll fail a Pronto check about 1/144 times, so it's a pretty reliable trick. If you DO fail the drive check, though, then the 'jack cannot benefit from the marshal that turn (unless you already activated the 'jack, of course). Usually I'll do hit and run shooting with the Daemons in the beginning if I have some good targets and late game they can be used for throws/slams (again, Pronto helps out a lot here) or to soften a hard target with their Blessed fists. If your opponent leaves their caster within 2" of a 'jack or other low defense/high arm target then you can pull off some classy assassinations with Ossyan's feat (two pow 12s, one pow 14, and one pow 13 all with 4 dice to damage).

    And I'll add that the Sentinel UA is usually very well protected between line of sight blocking, Quicken (if you're running Ossyan), Defensive Line and Disco's Imprint. That's Def 14, Arm 19 with 5 wounds and lots of models to block LoS.
    It is one check per jack, but when you drive you don't *have* to drive every jack (but you can if you'd like). The wording is "can attempt to drive each warjack under it's control" etc. and then "To drive a warjack" etc.
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    And what about PVyros, feat, 1 passive ability and one spell specific for jacks. And really good all 3r
    How many jacks can he manage correctly? Doesn´t look like a competitive caster in tournaments, at least is not a kaster used for RET players at tournaments, ?isn´t it?

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    I've seen interesting tech with pVyros tier but his feat is finicky and he doesn't offer a whole lot, certainly nothing that would scare anyone in a tournament sense.

    I think if you're maximizing what you get from your points, it's very difficult to justify that second jack, over, say the AFG, because unlike other factions ret actually has shooting units that threaten heavies without the inefficiency of CRAs(stormfalls, strike force), so boostable big guns aren't really a niche in which the faction was lacking. Ret jacks are good late game pieces, like every other faction's heavies, but blowing a lot of points on heavies tends to force you to use them earlier than you'd like. Also, the arcane assassin units/solos as well as the many ways to engineer knockdowns make boostable smacks a lot less necessary for closing out games.

    Interestingly enough, the faction has the best power booster solo in the game and jacks with good 1-focus games(daemon, banshee). A theme list that makes arcanists FA:U or increases their FA would make me really look at more of a battlegroup.
    Last edited by Panzeh; 08-16-2013 at 09:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnlord Ed View Post
    This comes up all the time. So, consider this a PSA: There is no future in which we are getting an elven choir. Let it go, people.

  35. #35
    Eater of Brains joelker41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzeh View Post
    I've seen interesting tech with pVyros tier but his feat is finicky and he doesn't offer a whole lot, certainly nothing that would scare anyone in a tournament sense.

    I think if you're maximizing what you get from your points, it's very difficult to justify that second jack, over, say the AFG, because unlike other factions ret actually has shooting units that threaten heavies without the inefficiency of CRAs(stormfalls, strike force), so boostable big guns aren't really a niche in which the faction was lacking. Ret jacks are good late game pieces, like every other faction's heavies, but blowing a lot of points on heavies tends to force you to use them earlier than you'd like. Also, the arcane assassin units/solos as well as the many ways to engineer knockdowns make boostable smacks a lot less necessary for closing out games.

    Interestingly enough, the faction has the best power booster solo in the game and jacks with good 1-focus games(daemon, banshee). A theme list that makes arcanists FA:U or increases their FA would make me really look at more of a battlegroup.
    There's a total of 2things wrong here LOL:

    1) pVyros tier played by Bakaryu went undefeated in lock and load masters 2012. Including the match(es) Sunday.

    2) Ossyan's tier increases the FA of arcanists, Rahn lets you bring one for free above FA in his original tier.

    Introduction to Retribution

    Retribution Strategy articles on handcannononline.com:
    Retribution 2013 Review
    Retribution/Cygnar/Menoth Player for Removed from Play: Into the Arena

  36. #36
    Eater of Brains Phantasmagorium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelker41 View Post
    2) Ossyan's tier increases the FA of arcanists, Rahn lets you bring one for free above FA in his original tier.
    Too bad you have to take riflemen for Ossyan's tier, and Rahn's tier is just bad (probably due to the fact that, thanks to the way it was written, you'll never get any new HSBM solos like the Artificer into it). I mean, I love the punchmages, they brought me to Ret, but.. well, at least it can bring halbs.

    Edit: Oh, and because of colossals laughing in the face of COTBM's biggest piece of shenanigans, I suppose that's a big part of why I dislike it now.
    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatblah View Post
    5 - ...Chemical warfare is not a valid strategy.

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