Carnivean: Spiny Growth

[SteakAndSpirits]

This thread has been created as a place for any discussion around the subject of alternations to Spiny Growth leveraged to cover any gaps between the Carnivean and his point cost. It was originally brought up in the C-Rex thread. I created this thread so that additional brainstorming in that thread can continue without this suggestion bogging it down.

A summary of what brought this suggestion forward is as follows:

Discussions and direct comparisons of the Carnivean and other Warjacks and Warbeasts have encouraged some members of the Legion Forums that the Carnivean does not live up to his point cost of 11 points in his current incarnation. Specific suggestions for improvement can be viewed in the original thread. This thread proposes the following change to the Carnivean Animus:

Spiny Growth - Cost: 2 - RNG 6 / No / No
Target model gains +3 ARM. A Warbeast or Warjack hitting the affected model with a melee attack suffers d3 damage points after the attack is resolved. Spiny Growth lasts for one round.

The reason that an improvement on the Carnivean's animus is sufficient to lock in his value at 11 points is because the Carnivean is already very close to a value of 11 points and that solutions revolving around adjustments to his statline may not make him sufficiently competitive against other Legion choices.

This solution is not designed to make the Carnivean 'better'.

Instead, this solution leverages the Carnivean's animus as a force multiplier so that the presence of the Carnivean makes other parts of Legion work better in a limited, but practical, set of circumstances. It is the belief of the author that the Carnivean is already competitive. Further 'improvement' to the Carnivean risks the escalation of power that is counter-intuitive to the changes that will be introduced in Mark II.

Instead, by improving something unique to the Carnivean that improves it's counterparts, it intensifies the competitiveness of the Carnivean in relation to other 11 point purchases.

---

Evaluating the appropriateness of this animus inside Legion, we accept that Legion has many offensive tools but is not limited solely to offensive tools. This is why Legion also has defensive mechanics. And while Legion favors an offensive style of play, this should be a preference not a limitation.

In the case of this defensive animus in an offensive faction, using this animus has an offensive opportunity cost - In regards to the Carnivean, any time this animus is used, it can potentially be sacrificing two of it's high damage attacks. In regards to a Warlock using this animus, it comes at the cost of healing, spell-casting, or special abilities.

The animus does not overshadow other any other animus, most notably Tenacity, which is priced more competitively and offers a coveted bonus to DEF. Neither does it overshadow Excessive Healing, which creates an immunity to automatic 1 point damage abilities that high ARM will never attain.

---

This change provides something unique to the Carnivean that no other beast can marginalize. It absolutely ensures that it is worth it's 11 point price tag, and will allow it to make a competitive bid for list space for armies with compositions that could take advantage of +ARM.

It is Warlock neutral - It favours no Warlock above another. All can benefit from this animus.

---

Most importantly, this suggestion is not invasive. The precedent for Legion receives an +ARM spell is already in place. The price and range of that animus have already been determined. Players will not be confused or alarmed by a sudden change of dynamics. It is straightforward and intuitive.

Please consider play-testing with this suggestion. It ensures a solid lock for 11 points.

-s&s

[Necra-Chi]

I like it because it fits the "Tempo" theme I'm exploring for Legion.

You can ramp up the damage output by just spending those fury on attacks, or you can slow it down for both sides by putting up a decent ARM bonus that punishes the opponent proportional to how much effort he puts up against you.

Excellent.

I still worry that 3 ARM is too much though, when taken with things like dragon blood or death shroud. I do like that its far more competitive with tenacity that way.

I also like how it mirrors the troll's rage animus in that its a faction of high ARM getting more damage output from an animus, and we're a faction of damage output getting more ARM from an animus.

I also think it allows the carnivean to play as a tank if it needs to, which would really distinguish it from the other heavies in faction.

[Aedric]

I'd take +1 mat/rat over this any day of the week.

The carniveans problem is not his animus its the fact that he can't hit the barn sitting beside him on a bright sunny day without help.

Mr whiffy windmill needs help and its not more armour.

[blitzmonkey]

I'd take +1 mat/rat over this any day of the week.

The carniveans problem is not his animus its the fact that he can't hit the barn sitting beside him on a bright sunny day without help.

Mr whiffy windmill needs help and its not more armour.

This animus would be better, imo, because it helps ensure resources from the opponent are spent on killing it. It forces your opponent to commit more. Pop the animus and get it up there. Watch how the opponent thinks about trying to damage an armor 21 WHILE also taking d3 dmg to its jacks and beasts. It simply makes the carni sustainable instead of being complete offense. If you miss with one or two of your attacks, it won't hurt as much because the armor buff with help swing the odds in your favor that it will be around for another round of beat down. Will the Carni always kill its points worth? No. But as Necra said, it helps set the tempo. And it helps make the carni our own personal metronome.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I'd take +1 mat/rat over this any day of the week.

The carniveans problem is not his animus its the fact that he can't hit the barn sitting beside him on a bright sunny day without help.

Mr whiffy windmill needs help and its not more armour.

I can understand why you would come to that conclusion.

However, as stated in the C-Rex thread, I do not believe that the Carnivean needs additional assistance with accuracy above and beyond the mechanics already in place. For the benefit for forum members who have not read the C-Rex thread, I will briefly recap WL mechanics already in place, here:

Lylyth - Direct: Feat, Indirect: Free-Charges, Parasite
eLylyth - Direct: Death Sentence
pThagrosh - N/A
eThagrosh - Direct: Manifest Destiny, Indirect: Scourge
Vayl - Direct: Incite, Chiller
Rhyas - Rapport
Saeryn - Breath Stealer
Absylonia - N/A

Direct improvements to accuracy add additional dice or dice modifiers to attack rolls.

Indirect modifiers include automatic hits from knockdown, removing the cost of fury from charges to be reallocated to attack roll boosts, etc. Additionally, indirect modifiers are further enhanced by Legion Fury Management abilities by decreasing the opportunity cost of boosting for accuracy in a macro-sense.

However. Debating his need for accuracy does not advance the merit of Spiny Growth adding +3 ARM. If you would like to debate that subject, let's do so in the C-Rex thread to keep this thread concise and on-topic.

Thanks!

-s&s

Edit: pLylyth edited to include 'Parasite' as indirectly increasing accuracy by allowing for additional damage and thus offsetting damage lost by boosting for accuracy.

[Jaster]

I'd second the thought that I'd rather see the Carnivean gaining more accuracy (I'm ok with his RAT 4). However, I fear that +1 MAT would overshadow his points, MAT 6 opens the doors to two P+S 16 and upwards of 5 P+S 18 swings hitting on average against other Heavys, or a Spray 10 POW 14 to replace a P+S 18 swing against infantry (Since it being a spray, it gets the edge to ignore many DEF boosts). I think I'd rather see the added armor, which would help me shell up a bit if my attacks go awry.

[Neutralyze]

and the above is why his mat wont increase :P.

its sad to think that but the more i play and review .......

[SteakAndSpirits]

but the more i play and review .......

...the more we realize that the Carnivean is a very powerful model, and if we tweak it the wrong way we could break something?

-s&s

[Jaster]

...the more we realize that the Carnivean is a very powerful model, and if we tweak it the wrong way we could break something?

-s&s

Agreed, while his animus could use some polish, he's still great with Lock Jaw out of the way.

[albertcamUsjr]

I've been playing with the Carnivean a lot, and I'm not sure there is a great way to balance him. One game we played him at +1Mat and he absolutely wrecked house (against Trolls), he killed a Mauler and two Impalers all on his lonesome.

My most recent game against Circle with pThag was astounding. The Carnivean was literally 0/8 on attacks against the Warpwolf en route to a slow death. Now, I understand that is one data point in a massive set of data, but it was incredibly frustrating in the moment (especially since the Warpwolf had a greater threat range and was able to dictate terms of engagement).

I am under the impression that giving him one more fury might be the right way to do it. It gives him either one more opportunity to buy an attack, or one more opportunity to boost an attack. I realize this gets to the point in which he will be able to make 3 initial attacks plus 5 (yikes) additional attacks, but what is he going to kill with that one extra attack he wasn't going to kill with the initial allotment?


Anyway, I am starting to break my vow to never give specific "how to fix it" feedback, so I must go flagellate.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Agreed, while his animus could use some polish, he's still great with Lock Jaw out of the way.

Absolutely! Losing Lock Jaw is a big deal!

-s&s

[Neutralyze]

...the more we realize that the Carnivean is a very powerful model, and if we tweak it the wrong way we could break something?

-s&s

the more i realize that he wont get the mat buff due to the potential of buffing him from our warlocks.

[RuneGrey]

Once we get up to +3 armor, we're actually matching the amount of damage that Typhon's feat and negate, abet in a different factor. Typhon's feat will give you 1-3 health back randomly, depending on how good you roll. The advantage here is if you take 1 or 2 damage from an attack - Excessive healing has the potential to not only prevent all the damage, but to make up ground.

Our new, modified spiny growth always prevents 3 damage - you might still take damage, but any model that you cast it on (and I suspect there is a chance it may become self only with this change) will lose 3 boxes of damage, plus if it's a jack or beast, it will take 1-3 damage in return. At this point, we're actually talking about an animus that exceeds Typhon's in a number of respects.

Some casters will benefit more from Excessive Healing or Tenacity - Vayl comes to mind the most, with Talion being able to potentially take the almost all the sting out of a 10 damage attack with Excessive Healing active. But this is a very useful buff for us, and gives the Legion the ability to stand off and hold an area for a short period of time, abet at a high model and focus cost. Combined with eThag's buff, it makes the Carny into a very strong armored model - but other factions have tough guys too, and this may well be the Carnivean's new role.

Now if it gets the MAT boost and the new animus, that's just frosting on the cake.

[Soulblighter]

I'd second the thought that I'd rather see the Carnivean gaining more accuracy (I'm ok with his RAT 4). However, I fear that +1 MAT would overshadow his points, MAT 6 opens the doors to two P+S 16 and upwards of 5 P+S 18 swings hitting on average against other Heavys, or a Spray 10 POW 14 to replace a P+S 18 swing against infantry (Since it being a spray, it gets the edge to ignore many DEF boosts). I think I'd rather see the added armor, which would help me shell up a bit if my attacks go awry.

Whats with the complete lack of entitlement in this faction? Mulg the Ancient is 11 points. The same cost as the Carnivean. Hes MAT7, FURY5, P+S18 main attack with a P+S16 secondary attack and he has a bunch of silly abilities that involve eating people. Why shouldnt the Carnivean be every bit as good as that? Why is everyone in this faction so afraid of asking for the Carnivean to be much better than he is now? And whats with this guilt people keep feeling that our buffs are somehow too good? You seriously think trollbloods feel the least bit guilty about giving Mulg +3 STR? Because they dont.

[alchahest]

might have something to do with spending the entirety of mk I with an army not all of our opponents understood and claimed was completely broken (there are some combos that were definitely broken, mind. but most armies have stuff like that.) it would be nice to just have a competetive army without being seen as less capable players.

[chrsjxn]

the more i realize that he wont get the mat buff due to the potential of buffing him from our warlocks.

I'm still not convinced it's overpowered. I've played a few games with him at MAT 6 base, and, honestly, his performance at buffed MAT 7 vs. buffed MAT 8 is not very different.

In both cases, I find myself buying attacks to wreck heavies, and boosting attacks against warcasters. And it usually takes him the same amount of fury to kill something at MAT 7 as it does at MAT 8 (barring weird dice rolls).

But, the difference between MAT 5 and MAT 6 is more noticeable, because it provides a pretty substantial boost in his damage against heavy targets, by allowing him to hit DEF 13 on average unboosted rolls.

Regarding the +3 ARM version of the animus, it does make it more compelling to cast instead of Tenacity, which is good. It also makes it seem favorable to cast on Typhon instead of his animus, allowing him to use his fury to beat face. Which is also good.

I'd have to test, and see what it felt like to run beasts with more armor than Khador jacks.

[Killionaire]

Whats with the complete lack of entitlement in this faction? Mulg the Ancient is 11 points. The same cost as the Carnivean. Hes MAT7, FURY5, P+S18 main attack with a P+S16 secondary attack and he has a bunch of silly abilities that involve eating people. Why shouldnt the Carnivean be every bit as good as that? Why is everyone in this faction so afraid of asking for the Carnivean to be much better than he is now? And whats with this guilt people keep feeling that our buffs are somehow too good? You seriously think trollbloods feel the least bit guilty about giving Mulg +3 STR? Because they dont.

Mulg isn't a SPD6 Pathfinder with Eyeless sight for one, nor does he have a third P+S16 attack, nor does he have a POW14, RNG10 spray.

Trolls have different sorts of buffs that Legion has. Incite is +2 STR effectively, and so is Manifest Destiny in the end.

A +3 ARM Animus would be quite potent, since it'd make him a stronger brick and make Legion Locks a lot tougher.

[Soulblighter]

Mulg isn't a SPD6 Pathfinder with Eyeless sight for one, nor does he have a third P+S16 attack, nor does he have a POW14, RNG10 spray.

Hes +2 MAT, +1 ARM, +1 FURY, +1 THR, +3 wounds, regeneration, open fist, and reach. Not to mention he gets two special abilities as well as a critical effect.

Your seriously going to try and convince me me thats equal to +2 SPD, pathfinder, eyeless sight, assault, and a spray attack?

Thats not even close Killionaire.

[Killionaire]

Hes +2 MAT, +1 ARM, +1 FURY, +1 THR, +3 wounds, regeneration, open fist, and reach. Not to mention he gets two special abilities as well as a critical effect.

Your seriously going to try and convince me me thats equal to +2 SPD, pathfinder, eyeless sight, assault, and a spray attack?

Thats not even close Killionaire.

I was bring up the fact that you were choosing to ignore some things. Quite frankly, I would never say that +2 SPD, Pathfinder, Eyeless Sight, Spray, Assault, a potentially higher ARM with Spiny Growth and 1d3 retaliation damage are 'nothing'.

[Angelust]

Once we get up to +3 armor, we're actually matching the amount of damage that Typhon's feat and negate, abet in a different factor. Typhon's feat will give you 1-3 health back randomly, depending on how good you roll. The advantage here is if you take 1 or 2 damage from an attack - Excessive healing has the potential to not only prevent all the damage, but to make up ground.

Our new, modified spiny growth always prevents 3 damage - you might still take damage, but any model that you cast it on (and I suspect there is a chance it may become self only with this change) will lose 3 boxes of damage, plus if it's a jack or beast, it will take 1-3 damage in return. At this point, we're actually talking about an animus that exceeds Typhon's in a number of respects.

Some casters will benefit more from Excessive Healing or Tenacity - Vayl comes to mind the most, with Talion being able to potentially take the almost all the sting out of a 10 damage attack with Excessive Healing active. But this is a very useful buff for us, and gives the Legion the ability to stand off and hold an area for a short period of time, abet at a high model and focus cost. Combined with eThag's buff, it makes the Carny into a very strong armored model - but other factions have tough guys too, and this may well be the Carnivean's new role.

Now if it gets the MAT boost and the new animus, that's just frosting on the cake.

Typhon's animus allows you to basically never lose an aspect if you're still alive. Getting back 1-3 boxes of your choice after an attack is resolved is pretty awesome, as it basically means you'll always be at full fighting capacity.

[Soulblighter]

I was bring up the fact that you were choosing to ignore some things. Quite frankly, I would never say that +2 SPD, Pathfinder, Eyeless Sight, Spray, Assault, a potentially higher ARM with Spiny Growth and 1d3 retaliation damage are 'nothing'.

I didnt say they were 'nothing'. I objectively weighed the advantages of the Carnivean against the advantages of Mulg and Mulg won. I also took into account the fact that Mulg readily has access to an animus that gives him +2" movement and Pathfinder as well as a unit that gives him +2 ARM. Mulg is not just a little better than a Carnivean, hes A LOT better than a Carnivean.

[Jaster]

Whats with the complete lack of entitlement in this faction? Mulg the Ancient is 11 points. The same cost as the Carnivean. Hes MAT7, FURY5, P+S18 main attack with a P+S16 secondary attack and he has a bunch of silly abilities that involve eating people. Why shouldnt the Carnivean be every bit as good as that? Why is everyone in this faction so afraid of asking for the Carnivean to be much better than he is now? And whats with this guilt people keep feeling that our buffs are somehow too good? You seriously think trollbloods feel the least bit guilty about giving Mulg +3 STR? Because they dont.

It's not a matter of entitlement, feedback is not intended to try and vye are faction to end up better then the rest and snip any edge we can manage.

The fact is C-Rex can open with a charge with say, Lylyth, and have 4 Inital attacks and still sit on 4 Fury to do what have you, and I can do that as many times as I care to risk unbalancing my force (FA: U). No matter how good Mulg gets' there's only on on the table, there's a different balance factor that goes into Character warbeasts, and any limited FA in the game, and all Character warbeasts SHOULD be better then an equviliant faceless dragonspawn, compairing Mulg to Typhon is a better choice, and both have different shinging points.

That aside; in greater thinking, and the issues pointed to compairing Spiney Growth with 3 Armor, vs Excessive Healing is a good point, it would need to be Self or some other restriction to prevent it from outshining it (I for one will generally take the -3 Damage taken with the return damage over the hope to get a nick and heal).

[Necra-Chi]

It doesn't follow that Spiny growth and excessive healing would be in competition with each other. Frequently you will have either a carnivean or Typhon, not both, so they wouldn't compete, and if you did take them together, then you would simply choose the best one for the matchup, its not like you're forced to cast an animus.

Nobody is going to say Oh I'd rather take the carnivean now because he's got the better animus. Instead they will be weighing up their options. I could take Typhon and have dependable MAT and RAT and massive damage output and an animus that amounts to improved ARM and never losing an aspect, but hey do I REALLY need that when I can get a carnivean for one point less, similar potential in teh beatdown department and look at this great animus.

I think the theory is sound, now its just a matter of if it is fair and balanced inter-faction.

[Soulblighter]

If Spiny Growth is changed to +3 ARM it would likely have to lose its secondary effect that causes d3 damage. Otherwise it would be way too good of an animus.

As for Spiny Growth vs Excessive Healing... what if Excessive Healing gained Spiny Growth's secondary effect of d3 damage?

Spiny Growth
Cost 2, Rng 6, Target model gains +3 ARM. Spiny Growth lasts for one round.

Excessive Healing
Cost 2, Rng Self, When the model using Excessive Healing is damaged by an enemy attack, immediately after resolving the attack the affected model heals d3 damage points. A warbeast or warjack hitting the affected model with a melee attack suffers d3 damage points after the attack is resolved. Excessive Healing lasts for one round.

[Necra-Chi]

Isn't that the point though. Not sure about the beast for the cost, fantastic animus. Kind of like the seraph.

[W0lf]

I like the change and if the carnivean stays the same with +3 arm + 3 damage animus then id feel better about his points cost.

[Defenstrator]

I would rather have the MAT/RAT increase. It's the more balanced of the two choices. In my experiance when the Carnivean is under Incite/Manifest Destiny he's going to hit most things anyway and so it isn't a huge bonus. But for warlocks who don't have those abilities it really helps them out. It's an 11 point model. I don't want to feel frustrated when I play it.

As for arguments that the Carnivean is an a FA U model, having tried it out in a couple of godzilla lists, you have no army. And Carniveans are not unreasonably hard to kill at DEF 11 ARM18. Let him hit more when he's not buffed and I think he's good.

[Neutralyze]

what if SG have +2 armor and 1d6 damage to warbeasts and jacks?

[Loveless]

Well, we can always suggest options as opposed to a single replacement.

The improved Animus would be useful. A stat boost would be useful. A points drop would be useful. However, all of those things combined would probably be a bit much.

As for having Spiny Growth give +2 ARM and 1d6 damage to enemy warthings, it doesn't seem as useful as +3 ARM and 1d3 damage. I think if we want to improve Spiny Growth, we should focus on the constant effect as opposed to the conditional effect.

[mladjanobugarce]

I really like the change to Animus since with vast majority of our warlocks Carny is still good. Main problem I had with him during the MKII games is that my oponents tend to concetrate their fire to take Carny out and they do that too easilly for 11p model.

The other problem I had is that Carny sucks with Aby but so does everything else so we need to change her not Carny.

[alchahest]

I would rather have the MAT/RAT increase. It's the more balanced f the two choices. In my experiance when the Carnivean iis under Incite/Manifest Destiny he's going to hit most things anyway and so it isn't a huge bonus. But for warlocks who don't have those abilities it really helps them out. It's an 11 point model. I don't want ot feel frustrated when I play it.

I agree with this. 30 some odd dollars and 11 points for a little bit of metal that is frustrating doesn't seem like a good deal. missing attacks on high def models without boosting makes sense for a premier non-character heavy. missing them on average def beasts with no boosting isn't as acceptable. and missing on khador heavies with no boosting 30-40% of the time is inexcusable. 11 points guys. 11 points!

[mladizmaj]

I still think his animus is not problem with Carnivean, I still think the legion is a bit like glass cannon and carnivean with more armor is less glass and with his low mat and rat is definitely not cannon. For all who say he has assault i am more for +1 mat then for him having assault charge. Still he is expensive for what he brings to the table. All know that he is underpowered for his cost but all are truing to solve it on a different way. I would like to see him a bit better because i would like an option to be able to bring some other heavy other then the Typhon ( seraph and angelius really don't fell like heavies )

[Necra-Chi]

Is it appropriate to post an alternative to the proposed animus change here. Oh well I'll do it anyway.

I propose that the animus be changed only to make it target model/unit. Not ARM +3.

Why I like this idea:
1. Solves problems for other parts of the faction. Gives warmongers a bit more resilience they sorely need for example.
2. Puts the carnivean firmly in its 11 pt price tag. Its a potentially scary beatstick that people are worried can't hit High DEF. Well when it faces those it can switch to tank mode and help its army tank a bit too. having what would arguably be the best animus in the faction, means that peopel will give the animus serious consideration when building lists, and not look only at damage to cost ratio.
3. It distinguishe sitself as an animus from Excessive healing and tenacity.
4. I've always found it frustrating that it is so inefficient to buff infantry with our animi. This gives us an option to do that more efficiently.
5. It immediately opens up army building for me. When I think about that animus it immediately amkes me think of new themes and army designs I could explore, which I think is a very good thing. It makes me want to explore the brick option, the prickly infantry theme, it makes me feel like I can support our fragile infantry a little better and not be so reliant on our warbeasts, which may be very important in Mk2. Just with one animus like this, army design options increase. Not faction changing or definingly so, but still much more open design space.
6. I think its nicely thematic and fluffy. All of our friendly faction models have spiny growths. I've always seen this animus as just enhancing that to provide more protection, the spines get longer.
7. Being a fantastic, if short lived buff at a defenders ward price makes me feel like we have an animus almost as good as a spell added to our warlock spell list. An animus so good, but not insignificantly priced to compete with our warlock's cast every turn spells like dash, manifest destiny and incite, which can only be good thing, because to be honest, playing legion warlocks has been kinda boring and one dimensional so far. Only Saeryn and Vayl really get to whip out a toolbox of useful spells that they use a lot of within each game and over a course of a few games.

[Soulblighter]

I dont think animi are supposed to affect units. Is there even a single animus in the game that affects a whole unit?

[Nargacuga]

Is it appropriate to post an alternative to the proposed animus change here. Oh well I'll do it anyway.

I propose that the animus be changed only to make it target model/unit. Not ARM +3.

Troops getting the ARM buff is awesome, but not as half awesome as an Axer or Beast 09 taking well over 10 points of automatic damage from using thresher on unit of Spiny Growth-ed Swordsmen or Legionnaires LOL

[greenlock]

I objectively weighed the advantages

Let's just say you aren't objective in any way at all or if you think you have you need to learn what the word means. You haven't even tried to be objective. You have compared them with your own preconceptions about the game, preconceptions I doubt everyone agrees with even if you'd bother to spell them out. Its fine that you come to conclusions based on guesswork and feelings but please leave any claims about being objective at home and please present your premises and the arguments for them.

[Necra-Chi]

I dont think animi are supposed to affect units. Is there even a single animus in the game that affects a whole unit?

It might be a first and all the more reason to take the carnivean.

And yes I considered thresher on beasts and warjacks and like the idea even more for that. Presently warmongers are hurt most by those big threshing things, and this would at least give them pause as they slaughter our poor ogrun.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Is it appropriate to post an alternative to the proposed animus change here.

It absolutely is. The more heads dreaming up ideas, the better.

I propose that the animus be changed only to make it target model/unit. Not ARM +3.

There are some incredible, very potent applications there. No reason not to playtest it.

-s&s

[jonconcarne]

And yes I considered thresher on beasts and warjacks and like the idea even more for that. Presently warmongers are hurt most by those big threshing things, and this would at least give them pause as they slaughter our poor ogrun.

If it's too powerful on a model/unit for happening due to a hit, the trigger could also change to be "when damaged." On the other hand, if a beast/jack is attacking most infantry units, hit and damage will generally kill that infantry model anyways... *shrug* just a thought.

I highly approve of this possible change tho. It doesn't make the Carnivean any more broken offensively with Vayl+incite or eThagrosh+Manifest Destiny. An interesting but powerful change.

[GunMageinTraining]

The price would need to go up to 3 fury if it's affecting a whole unit.

I'd rather stay at 2, still only affect one model at a time, but have a 'if model is damage, attacker takes one point of damage' effect.

That way it can be a serious impediment to infantry that wants to try and attack it.

Might be a bit too powerful though on thinks like a Raek, spine it up then have it jump into a whole mob of infantry, dare attack me and die!