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Thread: Dawnguard Scyir

  1. #1
    Conqueror Gourge's Avatar
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    Default Dawnguard Scyir

    I've been wondering why I bought this model as I have used him once and think I know the reason why he gets so much dust. His Drive is good, but lets say you have the Syir and a Manticore. Now the Scyir isn't a weapon master but has flank, so in order to get the three dice on damage (4 if you charge) you need to have a jack be in melee range. So the jack has to get in melee before the Scyir activates. But if the Jack activates before the Scyir it's drive is useless as it will not need to re-roll nothing.

    I'd say it's a good defensive ability as in you activate, drive the jack, then charge only getting the three dice. Then if you haven't killed everything and survive a counter you will end up getting 3 dice on a non charge turn.

    I guess you could tack on a Griffon to his jacks and have it charge first, then drive, charge, then send in the heavy jack. But then you tossing a lot of points into a solo just to make him into a single sentinel......plus the drive for sentinels is way better....so why would I ever take this solo?


    Just thinking out loud, anyone else have an opinion?

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    Destroyer of Worlds Nutcase168's Avatar
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    In every faction there always is a worst solo. The scyir just happens to be ours by a wide margin. Really the only Time I would take him is in a Vyros tier list but even then I'd rather find room for something else.

    I like the look of the model but really that's about it. First model to need a change in MKIII 5 years form now.
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    Well yes him and the Gorgon... 2 of our worst models IMO


    Gee to the Max

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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalGee View Post
    Well yes him and the Gorgon... 2 of our worst models IMO
    Oh I wold argue that the Gorgon has a use, it keeps units tied up for a turn or two.

    Say you have a unit of flamegaurd in the center of the board. Move your Gorgon to withing 10" and shoot them. Then they have a choice, run to get away from the gorgon, or to get into B2B with it, or advance and possibly get charged the next turn by other things that are lurking about.


    But yeah the 5 points to tie up a unit for 2 rounds is rather dull and not worth it IMO, unless you knew going in there was a tarpit unit and didn't want to deal with them.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Nutcase168's Avatar
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    A unit of TFG will wreck the gorgon. CMA and ranked attack would allow them to trash it. And I though the gun only works on models hit so if the hit had range it would still be able to charge.


    As for the Scyir, all of our other solos, even Nayl have more use than him IMO, but Nayl would be up there.

    Worst models in our faction:
    Scyir
    Nayl
    Gorgon
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    Destroyer of Worlds magi's Avatar
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    The Scyir isn't bad for a 2pt solo - just don't give him any jacks. He's still worth it for the DEF15 ARM17 5 damage boxes and flank. That said, I've recently used him along with a Gryphon and a Gorgon. 11 pts total, but they pack a lot of hurt and are very versatile. I generally run or charge the Gorgon into melee with my target jack or warbeast (preferably one without reach), then drive the Gryphon and charge with the Scyir so he's out of the target's melee range, getting the flank bonus from the Gorgon. Then I charge with the Gryphon, staying out of melee range of the target and providing additional support for the Scyir. On my opponent's turn, he can do nothing but try to kill the Gorgon with the Warjack/Warbeast, which gives me another turn of beatdown with the Gryphon and the Scyir. Or, I can just charge to another target.

    I would like to run them in a Vyros or Ravyn list so they can take advantage of their ability to move through friendly Dawnguard models, but I haven't played enough points yet to make it worthwhile (I used them with Rahn in the league's 'fight club' scenario.)
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    Conqueror Gourge's Avatar
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    It would be worth it if the Gorgon had a "taunt" like ability, but I thought the wording was a model in it's melee range cannot move except to change facing. So they could just ignore the gorgon and go after the Scyir, or the Griffon.

    I wasn't sure on the wording for the gun, and yes a TFG unit can wreck a Gorgon, heck they can wreck a Hydra if you roll well enough.

    Myal is a, "This worked once" model IMO. I've had him work....once...and never again. He is to easy to get around, heck you could almost just ignore him completely. 1 attack with a mat of 7 magic weapon. I can't remember if he is even a weapon master.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Nutcase168's Avatar
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    Isn't the scyir only def 15 ARM 17 while in BTB with a jack? Making him either more limited in movement to be safer or weaker without a jack.

    Nayl isn't weapon master, he's just P+S 13, reach, magic weapon.
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    Conqueror TotalGee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutcase168 View Post
    Worst models in our faction:
    Scyir
    Nayl
    Gorgon
    Agreed, but im shore they are all going to rock in MKIII...lol


    Gee to the Max

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutcase168 View Post
    Isn't the scyir only def 15 ARM 17 while in BTB with a jack? Making him either more limited in movement to be safer or weaker without a jack.

    Nayl isn't weapon master, he's just P+S 13, reach, magic weapon.
    Ohhh he has reach...totaly worth it!

    Yes I think he is 13/15 making him 15/17 while in B2B with a jack and imune to knock down. Now if the was for the Scyir AND the jack....omg! But it's not so it's

    I wonder how he compares to other jack marshells, I remember loving the Khador JM in MKI

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    The thing is, with Flank, the Scyir is actaully more capable of killing a caster than an MHA is. MAT 10 w/flank is not somthing you can really overlook. For a faction that struggles to hit sometimes he's our most accurate model when supported right an can always be safely held in reserve thanks to his ability to move though Dawnguard or to buddy up with a jack.

    No he's not point and click, nor is Nayl, nor the Gorgon, which is why they get the wrap they do, it's hard to really figure out a model when you don't put it on the table, because they're skiped over for easyer figures like the MHA and Ghost siper. I like finding uses for them and often take Nayl when I know disrupting an arc node for a turn will completely destroy an opponents strategy. I find that with actual play time, they are less and less as bad as people say they are.

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    Is the Drive for the Scyir only for Melee attacks or any attacks? Because I'm starting to think it's not all that bad. Although if it's melee only then I think it's 1 step above useless.

    I agree a MAT 10 PoW 12-14 solo with 3-4 D6 damage on a caster is just what the doctor ordered. Plus the fact that the jack is in the casters face as well, the Scyir is a nice nail in it's coffin.

    The fact that they can charge thorugh Sents/invictors is nice.

    If the Drive works for ranged as well, I'd say use him with a Manticore and Arcinist. Drive then give the Manti an extra attack. The one focus can be used to either boost the damage or the third shot if needed.

    Is the Scyir spd 5 or 6? I think it's a 5 which then limits your jacks movement if you want the


    Ughh I wish I had my cards at work!

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    Destroyer of Worlds Nutcase168's Avatar
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    Really the Scyir should have been focus to work with Dawnguard instead of trying to be with jacks.

    Give him flank (dawnguard); defensive line (dawnguard) the ability to move through them, commander, and maybe some bonus to hit for dawnguard to hit what he has in melee range (like flank but no extra dice) and he's worth the 2 pts.
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    Destroyer of Worlds magi's Avatar
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    It would be worth it if the Gorgon had a "taunt" like ability, but I thought the wording was a model in it's melee range cannot move except to change facing. So they could just ignore the gorgon and go after the Scyir, or the Griffon.
    That's why you take advantage of the fact that both the Scyir and the Griffon have reach. The target can't attack them if it can't move to engage them.

    Is the Drive for the Scyir only for Melee attacks or any attacks? Because I'm starting to think it's not all that bad. Although if it's melee only then I think it's 1 step above useless.
    It's on any attack roll. I've used it to re-roll the ranged attack on the Gorgon, saving the boost for the damage roll.
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    Conqueror Gourge's Avatar
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    HA!


    Scyir, Manticore, Arcanist Manti still gets three shots and can reroll misses. Still gets a big combo smite.


    But


    Scyir, Griff, Gorgon, Arcanist...... yeah with reach this unit can tie up a jack for at least 2 turns and hopefully wreck it, all for 12 points. The cost of an invictor unit.

    Now I'm forced to buy another Griffon!

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    Plus I've always thought they were OP and had more cheese then wisconsin"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chainblast yer face! View Post
    Now I'm forced to buy another Griffon!
    You say that as if it's a bad thing....

    Griffons are the best jack-deal in the whole book, points-wise; if you ask me.

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    Conqueror Gourge's Avatar
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    No no no not a bad thing, just more stuff to assemble/paint find room on my battlefoam bag for.....

    "I don't belive one word of this "glass cannon" nonsense.
    Plus I've always thought they were OP and had more cheese then wisconsin"

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    Destroyer of Worlds bouncymischa's Avatar
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    I've tried using the Scyir to jack marshal Griffons, but trying to coordinate charges with them is difficult. It's the same problem that Brun and Lug run into, though.

    More recently I've just been using Scyirs as super-solos on my flanks, although my preferred list is a Vyros Flank-based army anyways. And I've also been taking Allegiants in my Menoth lists and kicking face with them. So your mileage may vary. :3
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    I think that in a non-vyros list where you want to put down another light and are using invictors this guy is Ossumsauce for the walk-through ability.

    The both of them can hide behind a wall of invictors and move in to do business when needed.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Nutcase168's Avatar
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    My biggest issue is that for the same costs a magister is almost as effective. He doesn't hit as often but with combo smityh the magister hits almost as hard, slams the model and still has a lot more options of things to do without requiring a jack.
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    Destroyer of Worlds magi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutcase168 View Post
    My biggest issue is that for the same costs a magister is almost as effective. He doesn't hit as often but with combo smityh the magister hits almost as hard, slams the model and still has a lot more options of things to do without requiring a jack.
    Sure, but then you have 1 or 2 fewer jacks that do not suffer from disruption and can keep going if their cortex gets bumped. Plus, if you're playing him right the Scyir is DEF15 ARM17, versus the DEF13 ARM12 of the Magister.

    I also did not mention that the Phoenix is the heavy jack of choice to marshal with the Scyir. Reach, auto-regenerating force field, an AOE gun for which you can reroll the miss, and all of it's cool melee abilities (sword causes fire, auto-hitting *attack) do not go away when the generator goes away.
    Last edited by magi; 04-20-2010 at 09:36 AM.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Nutcase168's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magi View Post
    Sure, but then you have 1 or 2 fewer jacks that do not suffer from disruption and can keep going if their cortex gets bumped. Plus, if you're playing him right the Scyir is DEF15 ARM17, versus the DEF13 ARM12 of the Magister.

    I also did not mention that the Phoenix is the heavy jack of choice to marshal with the Scyir. Reach, auto-regenerating force field, an AOE gun for which you can reroll the miss, and all of it's cool melee abilities (sword causes fire, auto-hitting *attack) do not go away when the generator goes away.
    Disruption is only an issue if you face certain models and we have arcanists to remove disruption and repair cortex's along with other systems. To get the Scyir to def 15 ARM 17 you need at least another 4 point model to do so. You talking of potentially adding 10 points to the model.

    The Magister is def 13 (15 vs ranged) and immune to blast damage without being in BTB with a jack. Defensively I call it a tie between the two. But the magister doesn't need a jack to maximize its offensive output.
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    Quote Originally Posted by magi View Post
    I also did not mention that the Phoenix is the heavy jack of choice to marshal with the Scyir. Reach, auto-regenerating force field, an AOE gun for which you can reroll the miss, and all of it's cool melee abilities (sword causes fire, auto-hitting *attack) do not go away when the generator goes away.
    All that is nice, but I'd NEVER stick an arc node, especially not a 10 point arc node, on a 'jack marshal.

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    Conqueror Gourge's Avatar
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    thats the debate I was having as well. Only way I would put the Phoenix with a Scyir is on a Vyros/Ravyn list. If it's not in V's battle group then his feat also is less effective, but I haven't had a really good V feat yet.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Nutcase168's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chainblast yer face! View Post
    thats the debate I was having as well. Only way I would put the Phoenix with a Scyir is on a Vyros/Ravyn list. If it's not in V's battle group then his feat also is less effective, but I haven't had a really good V feat yet.
    Vyros has a feat? ;-) Seriously I don't use it in half of my games since its so hard to maximize.

    Also if using Vyros, marshaling a jack removed birds eye and mobility from its disposal which are the real reasons you take jacks with him.
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    Conqueror Gourge's Avatar
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    Then that leave Ravyn being a good fit for the Scyir, or Garryth... actually Garryth might not be a bad fit at all! He can still give the Scyir or a jack the Mirage buff, don't need to give them re-rolls. Could use a group like that ro clear out a tarpit/make charge lanes.



    Hmmmmm
    Last edited by Gourge; 04-20-2010 at 10:44 AM.

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    Destroyer of Worlds FranzGrenstein's Avatar
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    The problem with the scyir is we have so many good choices for the 2pt solo slot. If I am going to take a solo I take a MHA (putting pressure on the opponent), if I have filled the FA or if the MHA does not synergieze(sp) with the caster I go to something else. If I don't take the MHA I take a mittens solo, and after that I don't take much else.

    I do like Scyir and I think he will work admirably, its just we have more effective things to spend the points on.

    Maybe if Vyros had a elite cadre dawnguard, that is another kettle of fish.
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    Destroyer of Worlds magi's Avatar
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    The Scyir really isn't a solo... he's a mini unit. Think of him more along the lines of the minion warlocks.
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    THis is part of why I posted this, I feel that the sentinals are better JM's than the Scyir given that they do not need to be flanked to do damage, and that they turn a Griffon into a jack missle. Turn 1, get into melee range of almost anything and prevent it from shooting you...I.E the Redeemer/Vanquisher. In a Vyros list you could even slap the Arm buff on it and may even survive, plus being that it is 4 points, if your getting 1 you might as well get two. Then you have 2 jack missles with the sentinels. 1 to tie it down, and one to charge and hit it hard! Or tie something else up for a turn while you get into position. Plus with reach it can take up a good ammount of units if it ran into a gun line.

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    Destroyer of Worlds magi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chainblast yer face! View Post
    THis is part of why I posted this, I feel that the sentinals are better JM's than the Scyir given that they do not need to be flanked to do damage, and that they turn a Griffon into a jack missle. Turn 1, get into melee range of almost anything and prevent it from shooting you...I.E the Redeemer/Vanquisher. In a Vyros list you could even slap the Arm buff on it and may even survive, plus being that it is 4 points, if your getting 1 you might as well get two. Then you have 2 jack missles with the sentinels. 1 to tie it down, and one to charge and hit it hard! Or tie something else up for a turn while you get into position. Plus with reach it can take up a good ammount of units if it ran into a gun line.
    It's true - for that purpose the Sentinels are better. The Scyir works better alongside Invictors, and is more of a beatstick marshal than a tricky marshal (like the Sentinels).
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    Captain Cynic hausdorff space's Avatar
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    I think the Scyir is rated down in this faction as he isn't something you can fully maximise in one turn.
    He's an options model. Something we don't generally do in this army.

    As people say, focusing on one turn rewards there's much better models we have for 2pts.
    But next to a jack he's a pain to move; on the offensive he hits super hard, and driving jacks helps mitigate one of their biggest weaknesses.

    I haven't tried it, but I imagine he starts really showing his worth as you get into bigger games (75pts).
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    Destroyer of Worlds Chris Cuevas's Avatar
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    Consider the Hydra as the Scyir's 'jack. Give him a focus from an arcanist, and you've got fairly reliable way of hitting def 17 (with boosted damage to boot :P ) , from far away.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Nutcase168's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaalTheWanderer View Post
    Consider the Hydra as the Scyir's 'jack. Give him a focus from an arcanist, and you've got fairly reliable way of hitting def 17 (with boosted damage to boot :P ) , from far away.
    But you'd never get it up to 3 focus for more effective range unless the enemy hits it with attacks.

    I think the Scyir is rated down in this faction as he isn't something you can fully maximise in one turn.
    He's an options model. Something we don't generally do in this army.

    As people say, focusing on one turn rewards there's much better models we have for 2pts.
    But next to a jack he's a pain to move; on the offensive he hits super hard, and driving jacks helps mitigate one of their biggest weaknesses.

    I haven't tried it, but I imagine he starts really showing his worth as you get into bigger games (75pts).
    But he really doesn't hit that much harder than other models we have. Sentinels hit just as hard all the time, the magister hits almost as hard (better min for magister better max for Scyir) the MHA hits really hard and only the Scyir requires a jack to do so.

    Maybe at 75 points when you caster is strapped for focus you could take one and marshal a jack but at 50 or less likely not.
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    Conqueror Gourge's Avatar
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    I like the combo or Gorgon, Griffon, Scyir on paper. Scyir and Griff both have reach and a model in Melee with the Gorgan can't move (can only change facing) BUT the Gorgon gets wrecked from a paper cut. So if you try and tie up an important unit something else can come over and ruin it's day. Then that unit you wnated to take pot shots at with reach is in your face....


    If I'm going to spend 12 points (that includes an arcanist) I'm going to buy some invictors. 11 PoW 12 shots at Range 10-14 with
    is WAY better. But yes in a very high point game I may take him with a Manticore or two and turn them into gun platforms. you can still get off three shots witht he 1 focus from an Arcanist, and you get one re-roll if you miss. Just can't boost. Plus you can still charge with a combosmite, and then have a Scyir charge the same target to finish off a weakened unit/jack.

    IMO anyway, I haven't tried this out yet.

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    Destroyer of Worlds FranzGrenstein's Avatar
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    I think once we get somemore jacks the scyir will shine. Maybe a light jack with spray, but with the 6 jacks we have now. meh
    "Sweat saves blood, blood saves lives, and brains save both."

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    Conqueror Gourge's Avatar
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    thats the reality, some units RoS has will not shine for a very long time. Could imagine eVyros with Elite Cadre Dawngaurd: All Dawngards units gain tough while in Vyros's CMD radius?

    Or a light jack that is 100% shooty RoF 2, that would work AWESOME with the Scyir.

    I'm also looking forward to a unit of Mage hunter assasins. Maybe not give them the same double dmg after Arm ability but a very hard unit to hit with thresher chain attacks or something.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Chris Cuevas's Avatar
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    But you'd never get it up to 3 focus for more effective range unless the enemy hits it with attacks.
    and you've got fairly reliable way of hitting def 17 (with boosted damage to boot :P ) , from far away.
    I consider a 19in. threat range ,'far away'

    But he really doesn't hit that much harder than other models we have.
    With flank, he gets pretty crunchy. Being able to move thru friendly dawnguard makes him pretty sneaky. Spd6+reach lets him cover a lot of ground as well.

    Sentinels hit just as hard all the time
    ....but require a substantial points investment. Often 10-12 pts. You could limp in for 6, but most folks go all in. With the Scyir you've got 2 points for an ultimately disposable can opener.

    the magister hits almost as hard
    I'm not seeing this . Scyir's effectively a MAT10 weapon master with an 11 threat range.

    the MHA hits really hard
    I'm gonna have to straddle the fence on this one. She does hit hard, but not nearly as hard as past DoOoM parties would have believe. Mat7, means she stands a plausible chance of missing high value targets, and once you take your shot with her, its pretty much lights out. Not too many players will risk allowing an MHA a second strike.

    Scyir can hide behind dawnguard, and is not as feared an MHA. Ironsentinel means he'll survive boosted blast damage.

    All that said aside, I always bring an MHA . I'm just pointing out the potential of a cool, often unused model. (Yup, I'm one of those guys who plays with certain figs just 'cause they're cOol)

    To preempt those about to say 'but Scyir needs a 'jack to get jiggy!' (), every Retribution army brings 'jack(s). Some more than others. I personally love Griffins, and those buggers can be where they need to be in a pinch.

    Lastly, I recently got hosed in a game in which my battle mages took massive casualties and failed their LD. I would have loved to have had a LD10 commander close by.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Nutcase168's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranzGrenstein View Post
    I think once we get somemore jacks the scyir will shine. Maybe a light jack with spray, but with the 6 jacks we have now. meh
    I will give this as a valid point. We only have 6 jacks and none can generate a ton of attacks like strafe, rapid shot, thresher. Anything that could pump out multiple attacks rolls to benefit from the drive.
    QUOTE (PPS_Dougseacat @ Sep 2 2008, 06:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Kids, Goreshade is a professional bastard. Do not try to manipulate dragons or lich lords in real life.

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    I think the wording on the drive is for one re-rell period, not per attack like Garryths spell. Again I don't have the card infront of me and I'm somewhat of a dinngle berry, so I could be mistaken. BUT I did look over the card last night and seem to remember it being one failed attack roll gets a re-roll.



    not super at all!

    "I don't belive one word of this "glass cannon" nonsense.
    Plus I've always thought they were OP and had more cheese then wisconsin"

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    Destroyer of Worlds Nutcase168's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaalTheWanderer View Post
    I consider a 19in. threat range ,'far away'

    With flank, he gets pretty crunchy. Being able to move thru friendly dawnguard makes him pretty sneaky. Spd6+reach lets him cover a lot of ground as well.

    ....but require a substantial points investment. Often 10-12 pts. You could limp in for 6, but most folks go all in. With the Scyir you've got 2 points for an ultimately disposable can opener.

    I'm not seeing this . Scyir's effectively a MAT10 weapon master with an 11 threat range.

    I'm gonna have to straddle the fence on this one. She does hit hard, but not nearly as hard as past DoOoM parties would have believe. Mat7, means she stands a plausible chance of missing high value targets, and once you take your shot with her, its pretty much lights out. Not too many players will risk allowing an MHA a second strike.

    Scyir can hide behind dawnguard, and is not as feared an MHA. Ironsentinel means he'll survive boosted blast damage.

    All that said aside, I always bring an MHA . I'm just pointing out the potential of a cool, often unused model. (Yup, I'm one of those guys who plays with certain figs just 'cause they're cOol)

    To preempt those about to say 'but Scyir needs a 'jack to get jiggy!' (), every Retribution army brings 'jack(s). Some more than others. I personally love Griffins, and those buggers can be where they need to be in a pinch.

    Lastly, I recently got hosed in a game in which my battle mages took massive casualties and failed their LD. I would have loved to have had a LD10 commander close by.
    Re: Sentinels and points, minimum costs to get a Scyir effective is 6 points, hydra is 11 points, same as a full unit of sentinels w/ UA.

    Re: MHA she also has arcane assassin to ignore focus and magical benefits to def and armor, and chain weapon to ignore shields. So arcane shield, iron flesh, Defenders ward, wind rush, BoK all useless against her unlike the Sciyr.

    Re Magister: I said as hard, not as often. P+S 15 is on average only 0.5 damage less than P+S 12 with flank. And it slams the target knocking it down.

    Re commander, just wait until the thane is out. He rocks.
    QUOTE (PPS_Dougseacat @ Sep 2 2008, 06:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Kids, Goreshade is a professional bastard. Do not try to manipulate dragons or lich lords in real life.

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