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  1. #1
    Conqueror
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    Default Theme force question...

    Is it always assumed that theme forces are limited to faction only?

    For instance,

    If Khador had a theme force that allowed medium based units, would Boomhowler and Co. be allowed in that theme force? It is a medium based unit that will work for khador. Obviuosly it's not a khador unit. Unless khador is a key word.

    If not, then why make a stipulation in theme forces that state 'khador heavy warjacks only' or 'khador non-heavy warjacks only'. Why not simply state 'heavy warjacks only' or 'non-heavy warjacks only'.

  2. #2
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbob View Post
    If Khador had a theme force that allowed medium based units, would Boomhowler and Co. be allowed in that theme force? It is a medium based unit that will work for khador. Obviuosly it's not a khador unit. Unless khador is a key word.
    So, is there any theme force like that? What do you ask?


    Quote Originally Posted by imbob View Post
    If not, then why make a stipulation in theme forces that state 'khador heavy warjacks only' or 'khador non-heavy warjacks only'. Why not simply state 'heavy warjacks only' or 'non-heavy warjacks only'.
    It is required to restrict warjack's specific faction or there is possibility to using mercenary warjack. Because every warjack can be used inside any list that have valid controller, only ways to prohibit some type of warjacks is to prevent it directly. Anyway, it is the job of the developer, not us.
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  3. #3
    Destroyer of Worlds sleet01's Avatar
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    It has generally been assumed that this is true in the past, but recent changes to the way unit or model descriptors can be mixed and matched may require some theme lists to be clarified or errata-ed. However, mostly a theme list will be specific enough about the allowed models that there is no room for interpretation.

    If a certain tier requires "2 or more medium-base infantry units", for instance, the fact that the theme itself specifies "Man-O-War Units" and "Man-O-War Solos", and that tier 1 says, "the list uses only the specified models" is sufficient to prevent using Boomhowler & Co. because including them would make the list would no longer meet the tier 1 requirements. The theme requirements would need to be fairly broad to allow non-faction (or non-Ally) units.

    On the other hand, Constance Blaize's theme allows "Morrowan Units" and "Morrowan Solos". The only Morrowan unit currently in the game is the Precursor Knights, which are Cygnar Ally infantry. However, the only Morrowan Solo is Harlan Versh, a Mercenary who works for Cygnar. Neither requirement states that the Morrowan units or solos must be Cygnaran, so it is possible to take Harlan Versh in an otherwise-Cygnaran theme list.

    If you could provide a specific example that you are interested in, however, it would make it easier to speak to that example.
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  4. #4
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    Sure sleet,

    Can Gastone Crosse be taken in cygnar theme forces that list journeyman warcaster. Also, can Harlen Versh be taken in Constance's theme force.

    Players seem to think that theme forces automatically restrict models and units to faction only.

    I always believed that we played in a permissive rule set. That line gets blurred way to often.

  5. #5
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbob View Post
    Can Gastone Crosse be taken in cygnar theme forces that list journeyman warcaster.
    http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post2587406

    It is checking for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by imbob View Post
    Also, can Harlen Versh be taken in Constance's theme force.
    Sure, and it is intended to do. See this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Army of Light, Tier 1
    Benefit: ... Additionally, Harlan Versh, Illuminated One, gains Advance Deployment.
    Also remember sleet01's post, that Harlan Versh is a legal model in there.
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  6. #6
    Destroyer of Worlds wazatdingder's Avatar
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    Non faction models are usually included in tier one bonus as said above. Otherwise Journeyman Warcaster would include ALL OF THEM.

  7. #7
    Conqueror Khador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleet01 View Post

    On the other hand, Constance Blaize's theme allows "Morrowan Units" and "Morrowan Solos". The only Morrowan unit currently in the game is the Precursor Knights, which are Cygnar Ally infantry. However, the only Morrowan Solo is Harlan Versh, a Mercenary who works for Cygnar. Neither requirement states that the Morrowan units or solos must be Cygnaran, so it is possible to take Harlan Versh in an otherwise-Cygnaran theme list.
    Harlan Versh is allowed because his unit type is listed as allowed. He is first and foremost a Mercenary Morrowan Model, as are the Precursor Knights a CygnarMorrowan Ally unit. Gaston is not a Journeyman Warcaster model by type (he is a Mercenary Character Solo), but a model with the JM rule. Quiet different. Now, if it listed "Models with Journeyman Warcaster", I would agree that he could be taken, but it does not.


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  8. #8
    Destroyer of Worlds sleet01's Avatar
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    Well, things have changed since the Kickstarter models were announced (and even since Trial by Fire was released). It was not originally true that having the "Journeyman Warcaster" rule made a model into a Journeyman Warcaster. That reading was specifically stated by DC in a thread on how descriptors have changed recently. Originally, *none* of the new Journeyman Warcasters would have worked in theme lists except where they were specifically allowed by name, or where the requirement was as loose as "Cygnar solos", "Solos with magical weapons", "Highborn solos", etc.

    What keeps all the Journeyman Warcasters from going into, e.g., Trial by Fire, is the fact that only two of them can be included in Cygnar lists to begin with. Jakes, because she's Cygnaran, and Gastone, because his Mercenary rule says he can. No other Journeyman Warcaster can work for Cygnar so they are automatically barred. Only Gastone exists in this specific gray area.
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  9. #9
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khador View Post
    Harlan Versh is allowed because his unit type is listed as allowed. He is first and foremost a Mercenary Morrowan Model, as are the Precursor Knights a CygnarMorrowan Ally unit. Gaston is not a Journeyman Warcaster model by type (he is a Mercenary Character Solo), but a model with the JM rule. Quiet different. Now, if it listed "Models with Journeyman Warcaster", I would agree that he could be taken, but it does not.
    Most recently DC's ruling said that models with Journeyman Warcaster is just like as the model with Journeyman Warcaster in their name or sub tag. So, by written it is possible.

    There is not any word that 'mercenary models are not legal in typical non-mercenary theme force' in rulebook.

    But anyway, it will be clear in upcomming errata. Until then none of us can know about that, unless you can mind control PPS_DC. So most correct answer will be 'checking.'
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  10. #10
    Destroyer of Worlds sleet01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khador View Post
    Harlan Versh is allowed because his unit type is listed as allowed. He is first and foremost a Mercenary Morrowan Model, as are the Precursor Knights a CygnarMorrowan Ally unit. Gaston is not a Journeyman Warcaster model by type (he is a Mercenary Character Solo), but a model with the JM rule. Quiet different. Now, if it listed "Models with Journeyman Warcaster", I would agree that he could be taken, but it does not.
    You need to pay better attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by PPS_DC View Post
    Yes, she is a Journeyman Warcaster.
    Yes, she is in the theme force.
    Yes, she helps you qualify for Tier 2 of the theme force.

    In a way, every single rule (or icon) is a subtype. Don't panic, though, as subtypes aren't nearly as scary as threads like this make them out to be. All a subtype really is is a way to refer to a group of models. That's it. It can be really helpful to be able to refer to "Reach models" or "Side Step models" or whatever.
    There is no ambiguity here. Having the "Journeyman Warcaster" rule now makes a model a "Journeyman Warcaster" for the purposes of any theme requirements that list "Journeyman Warcaster" in any way. Please stop posting until you have reviewed that thread.
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  11. #11
    Destroyer of Worlds Falkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbob View Post
    Is it always assumed that theme forces are limited to faction only?
    They are limited to models you could normally take in that faction, unless they specifically give you permission to take something else (Zerkova's Hunting wolves or Magnus' Bad seeds for example).
    Otherwise Siege's Trial by fire theme force would allow him to take all the new journeymen which he obviously can't.

  12. #12
    Destroyer of Worlds sleet01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falkman View Post
    Otherwise Siege's Trial by fire theme force would allow him to take all the new journeymen which he obviously can't.
    Do you have some logic or rules to back this statement up? Because I'm not seeing anything that allows Menoth, Cryx, Khador, or Retribution models to be taken in Cygnar lists, despite meeting the "Journeyman Warcaster" requirement. This is not the case with Gastone, hence the question.
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  13. #13
    Destroyer of Worlds Falkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleet01 View Post
    Because I'm not seeing anything that allows Menoth, Cryx, Khador, or Retribution models to be taken in Cygnar lists, despite meeting the "Journeyman Warcaster" requirement.
    Which is my point. I assumed that the OP was trying to get the question of "can Gaspy2 take the new drudges in his theme" answered in a round-about way. He can't, because he doesn't have access to them, just like Trial by fire can't take Malakov even though he technically fulfills the "journeyman warcaster" requirement.
    Last edited by Falkman; 05-07-2014 at 08:38 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falkman View Post
    Which is my point. I assumed that the OP was trying to get the question of "can Gaspy2 take the new drudges in his theme" answered in a round-about way. He can't, because he doesn't have access to them, just like Trial by fire can't take Malakov even though he technically fulfills the "journeyman warcaster" requirement.
    Let me clarify my post based on this perception of my reason for posting.

    I posted a bug report in the war room section of the boards stating that gastone was not available as a choice in siege's trial by fire theme force. DC has came out and said that Jakes is a journeyman warcaster by virtue of having the journeyman warcaster rule. In war room she is available as a choice in General Adept Nemo's weatherman theme force. She does not have journeyman warcaster in her name. The only place journeyman warcaster is on her card is by the journeyman warcaster rule. She is not named as an allowed unit/solo in the theme force.

    None of the cygnar theme forces state 'cygnar journeyman warcasters' in any of the cygnar theme forces. They simply state 'journeyman warcasters'. However, in each of those theme forces she is available to be taken. Going by both DC's post and war room one should be able to reasonably deduce that a solo that has the journeyman warcaster rule to be available to be taken in theme forces that allowed journeyman warcasters.

    During this bug report in the war room forums, replies were made that would lead one to believe that theme forces were restricted by faction unless a specific by name exception was made. Hence this thread and the generalized question, including a hypothetical theme force.

    Hope that clears things up.
    Last edited by imbob; 05-07-2014 at 08:53 PM.

  15. #15
    Destroyer of Worlds sleet01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falkman View Post
    Which is my point. I assumed that the OP was trying to get the question of "can Gaspy2 take the new drudges in his theme" answered in a round-about way. He can't, because he doesn't have access to them, just like Trial by fire can't take Malakov even though he technically fulfills the "journeyman warcaster" requirement.
    I'm pretty sure he's really asking about Gastone in Siege's Trial by Fire, since he's been active in several other threads on that subject recently.

    As far as I can tell, the question of whether Gaspy2 can take the new drudges is answered by the fact that none of them are Cryx Allies, and thus not eligible to be taken in Cryx armies to begin with. Gastone, on the other hand, is a Highborn model who can work for Cygnar normally and​ who (thanks, DC!) now matches the theme list requirements; this situation is more analogous with Harlan Versh, leading to imbob's clarification in comment #4.
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  16. #16
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbob View Post
    Let me clarify my post based on this perception of my reason for posting.

    I posted a bug report in the war room section of the boards stating that gastone was not available as a choice in siege's trial by fire theme force. DC has came out and said that Jakes is a journeyman warcaster by virtue of having the journeyman warcaster rule. In war room she is available as a choice in General Adept Nemo's weatherman theme force. She does not have journeyman warcaster in her name. The only place journeyman warcaster is on her card is by the journeyman warcaster rule. She is not named as an allowed unit/solo in the theme force.

    None of the cygnar theme forces state 'cygnar journeyman warcasters' in any of the cygnar theme forces. They simply state 'journeyman warcasters'. However, in each of those theme forces she is available to be taken. Going by both DC's post and war room one should be able to reasonably deduce that a solo that has the journeyman warcaster rule to be available to be taken in theme forces that allowed journeyman warcasters.

    During this bug report in the war room forums, replies were made that would lead one to believe that theme forces were restricted by faction unless a specific by name exception was made. Hence this thread and the generalized question, including a hypothetical theme force.

    Hope that clears things up.
    Then, what about to wait a while, until upcomming errata is released? It seems that for now we can't have any official answer. If they have it then we will have it about a month ago.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormpuppy_Infantry View Post
    Then, what about to wait a while, until upcomming errata is released? It seems that for now we can't have any official answer. If they have it then we will have it about a month ago.
    Because we now longer need to wait for official errata. The precedent has been set (B13th counting as arcane tempest gun mage unit in both caine's tier lists) that being released in war room is sufficient/effective and/or same as errata. It's starting to seem that releases/rules changes/clarifications are being steered towards first release in war room without any other notice.

  18. #18
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbob View Post
    Because we now longer need to wait for official errata. The precedent has been set (B13th counting as arcane tempest gun mage unit in both caine's tier lists) that being released in war room is sufficient/effective and/or same as errata. It's starting to seem that releases/rules changes/clarifications are being steered towards first release in war room without any other notice.
    So? Protest about lated ruling is enough in General Discussion forum. But not in Rules Forum.

    If protest about lated ruling is what you intended for, I don't think that this thread have enough meaning, at least in rules forum. Personally I am wonder that how it does too, but this forum is not exist to argue. Devs already heard about every opinion about a month ago, so I don't think that we can have new opinion to them.

    Just take aside it, and what about to wait until it's done?
    Last edited by Stormpuppy_Infantry; 05-07-2014 at 09:31 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormpuppy_Infantry View Post
    So? Protest about lated ruling is enough in General Discussion forum. But not in Rules Forum.

    I don't think that this thread have enough meaning, at least in rules forum. Personally I am wonder that how it does too, but this forum is not exist to argue. Devs already heard about every opinion about a month ago.
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  20. #20

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    Doesn't Reznik use mercenary units in his theme force?
    Steelheads, if i recall correctly
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  21. #21
    Conqueror Khador's Avatar
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    The theme force also specifically mentions the mercenaries in question in its theme force allowances.


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  22. #22
    Bane Lord Nekuraizou DarkLegacy's Avatar
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    Checking...

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  23. #23
    Zombie Annihilator Seikishi's Avatar
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    Father Lucant's tier lists medium and large based units, and medium and large based solos. It doesn't restrict it to Convergence only. Somehow I doubt it was intended for him to get access to every trollkin model in the game and every cavalry model in the game..

  24. #24
    Destroyer of Worlds bouncymischa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikishi View Post
    Father Lucant's tier lists medium and large based units, and medium and large based solos. It doesn't restrict it to Convergence only. Somehow I doubt it was intended for him to get access to every trollkin model in the game and every cavalry model in the game..
    Deceleration on Tuffalos in Lucant's tier list is totally a thing!
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikishi View Post
    Father Lucant's tier lists medium and large based units, and medium and large based solos. It doesn't restrict it to Convergence only. Somehow I doubt it was intended for him to get access to every trollkin model in the game and every cavalry model in the game..
    Except the fact that the tier list is a convergence tier list, and therefore can only take models that work for convergence unless stated otherwise
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  26. #26
    Destroyer of Worlds bouncymischa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterKiller42 View Post
    Except the fact that the tier list is a convergence tier list, and therefore can only take models that work for convergence unless stated otherwise
    Isn't that the OP's question, which is currently being checked?

    I find it particularly amusing that, if it's determined that you can take models that fulfill the tier requirements but don't necessarily work for the faction, Lucant can take both Tartarus and Bane cavalry as well... :P
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  27. #27
    Bane Lord Nekuraizou DarkLegacy's Avatar
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    Locking until answer...

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    Bane Lord Nekuraizou DarkLegacy's Avatar
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    Any models that can be used legally within an army can be used within Theme Forces if they are allowed.

    For example, Gastone Crosse can work within any Cygnar Theme Forces that allow Journeyman Warcasters. Unless Mercenary warjacks are allowed, he won't be able to take any warjacks.

    If Khador has a Theme Force that allowed medium-based units, any Mercenary/Minion medium-based units that work for Khador could be taken.

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  29. #29
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    Thanks! 10 char

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