Skorn MK2, A bright new horizon?

[SaltyBob]

Now that MK2 Skorn has been out for a while I?m curious to know how people are feeling about our options in general as a faction.

Do the new models/rules make you feel like there are tons of new combinations, army builds and worthwhile tournament list?

Or have we remained about the same, some stuff became better others became toned down resulting in a net averaging out effect.

Or have we actually had more options taken away from us than have been introduced.

Are you excited to try out things and feel confident that Skorn will emerge as a balanced faction with multiple building options, or not so much?

[kantoboy]

The Brute will replace the krea, we still wont use our heavies much and we will rely on troops to get the job done. I'm trying to figure out if we are still the mid - late game hard hitting faction. I'm missing the hard hitting part...

[HannibalTheGreat]

For me, almost everything is better now due to the models I own:

eMakeda: I now am able to play her in every game. She enhances the speed of my Titans like no other.

Xerxis: Is a beast taht he should have been from the beginning.

pMakeda: Still a good support warlock.

Immortals: Seem to be playable now, which is pretty nice.

Titans: I like them all! Actually I´m running the Bronzeback / Cannoneer Combo to good effect.

Bronzeback gives my Titans all terrain abilities, while the Tyrant Commander can do so for units. Great!

Cetrati: More offensive power while still very good defensive capabilities: Great!

Overall I like how Skorne look at the moment.

HTG

[Thunder_God]

I have to ask, do you really prefer the new Xerxis? I really miss his old Merciless Assault spell, especially with the high MAT our faction enjoys.

[Razhem]

I have to ask, do you really prefer the new Xerxis? I really miss his old Merciless Assault spell, especially with the high MAT our faction enjoys.

Our high mat is an illussion, it came from the krea's field. Our mat unitwise is frozen in 6 till we start looking at catacrapht units and those are pretty expensive. Fury seems like a fantastic substitute and helps a lot praetorians, who might not knife everybody to death, but start hitting with real power without depending on plinking to death or blowing a minifeat.

[Joroth]

While Merciless Assault was great, Fury I find to be amazing when applied to the right unit *ahem*Cetrati*ahem*. I REALLY am enjoying Xerxis as he is now. And looking back on my match last night, I believe that Fury replaced MA because of how brutal his feat is now. I mean c'mon, putting MA on an enraged Molik or Rhinodon under the feat? There would be so many cries of BORKEN!!!1! that PP would reset him back to his original self.

[Yertle4]

I overall like the Mk 2 treatment to the Skorne. They just play better, the roles are more defined, there's less stupid tricks. There is less emphasis on the counter attack and more emphasis on offensive synergy.

I like about half the stuff we have. I think a little under half the stuff we have is underpowered/has an undefined role, and 1-2 things could do with toning down.

[bashamer]

My skorne in MK1 revolved around a trio of titans and slamming kittens trough infantry machine hordes. This is not as feasable as kittens are pricy and infantry isn't as dominant.

I like MK2 skorne, zaal is good at 35, probably retardedly stupid at high point cost games. makeda, eMakeda are both good, xerxis is great, the morguls are decent. hexeris is a bit of a joke as is Mordikar, but I expect that they will get changes prior to go life.

There are a few linchpins in the army tough, even tough the Tyrant commander is great, probably a biit too good, he does help mitigate a lot of issues w/ the infantry. if he gets nerfed than the whole infantry line will be a lot less interesting, and my oppinion very quickly changes.

this does mean that a skorne list plays 5 points to auto includes of a Tyrant commander and a unit of paingivers, but that is like trolls w/ a full kriel + UA or circle w/ stones. the only faction that doesn't have an auto include bucket might be legion, but I have not paid much attention to them.

The titans are .... ok, not amazing, but ok. Other than the 2 casters I really have no major beefs w/ skorne. They play realtively fast and the flavor of attrition is still strong.

I still don't think that skorne can take an all heavy jack list, but no hordes factions can really compete w/ 30+ boxes at arm 20+ for 6 points (Bart, Nomad). But this is a Hordes issue not a Skorne issue.

[Deathraven]

I like about half the stuff we have. I think a little under half the stuff we have is underpowered/has an undefined role, and 1-2 things could do with toning down.

This.
I'm dissapointed that a few things took such major nerfs (krea, hexeris & extoller mostly) but on the whole we're at least halfway there. I find it hard to say that I think that everything will be alright in the end but at the same time I have a fair amount of faith in PP's design team.

[Hollywoodxxl]

I still don't think that skorne can take an all heavy jack list, but no hordes factions can really compete w/ 30+ boxes at arm 20+ for 6 points (Bart, Nomad). But this is a Hordes issue not a Skorne issue.

Finally someone who agrees with me!!

I was thinking pbutcher zerkers,behemoth,beast 09...but yeah, same diff

[DeathnGlory]

I still don't think that skorne can take an all heavy jack list, but no hordes factions can really compete w/ 30+ boxes at arm 20+ for 6 points (Bart, Nomad). But this is a Hordes issue not a Skorne issue.

I find deciding what is wrong with Skorne over what is wrong with Hordes currently the biggest problem. I have been doing a lot with Retribution at the moment (bought the book and love all that is new/shiny) and the comparisons between them and Skorne show major disparencies.

• Venators vs ranged. For the cost Skorne has appalling ranged capabilities and with the change to Swamp Gobbers I am not looking forward to facing Cygnar/Retribution shooting lists.
• Heavies. Retribution heavies seem to have a pool of extra abilities based on their field generators which will really hose a lot of Hordes models that can't put up a good ranged attack. This carries on into others heavy warjacks that, as we all know, are cheap in comparison to warbeasts. The cry that beasts are fundamentally better is reduced by the fact that every warcaster now has spells that increase that battlegroup's capabilities well beyond a fury or focus point or two.
• Lack of threats. This is Skorne's (or Hordes??) biggest problem. With the nerf to the AG and several warlocks being toned down Skorne has very obvious threats and they are very limited. Without Spirit in Amber and Death March (MK1 DM) etc our magic casters have also lost their threat capabilities. A jack heavy list only needs to concentrate on cataphracts and Beasts - and with a good ranged offense or a decent spell list they can counter that before we can provide any threat to their warcasters. Skorne are now a joke to casters such as Deneghra, the Butcher, Vlad, the Haleys etc etc etc as they shut us down completely and, without the Lord Assassin, with almost total impunity.
• No Tier 1 caster anymore. As stated above - WM tournament casters will go through us like a hot knife through butter.

Units such as the Paingivers and Tyrant Commander are great but they support units and models that are not quite good enough in a competitve arena.

Sorry to be all doom and gloom but Skorne is my favourite faction and yet Cygnar is the faction I play in serious games. With Metamorphosis that had been addressed and now it has reverted right back. I have maybe 10 FT games behind me and I know that this isn't enough but I just got used to all the flavours and now everything tastes so vanilla.

To anticipate some of the replies that might come... Yes I know that this is only the field test and if I were PP I too would also make draconic changes, ride the outcry and then give back some of the stuff and have a very relieved and therefore happy group of players. I just find this procedure a little degrading to the players.

[Helion]

• Lack of threats. This is Skorne's (or Hordes??) biggest problem. With the nerf to the AG and several warlocks being toned down Skorne has very obvious threats and they are very limited. Without Spirit in Amber and Death March (MK1 DM) etc our magic casters have also lost their threat capabilities. A jack heavy list only needs to concentrate on cataphracts and Beasts - and with a good ranged offense or a decent spell list they can counter that before we can provide any threat to their warcasters. Skorne are now a joke to casters such as Deneghra, the Butcher, Vlad, the Haleys etc etc etc as they shut us down completely and, without the Lord Assassin, with almost total impunity.
  

/agree. Hands down. Our heavy hitters seem a joke compared to Mk. II jacks. The problem is that the games seem to be balanced with "Beasts will always boost, jacks probably won't" in mind. The problem is that this paradigm has shifted. Your going to see more marshaled jacks in Mk. II than in Mk. I I'll wager, and casters now have a pretty good incentive to give out focus like candy to their jacks. Then look at casters like Amon and Nemo who have ways of powering jacks to Hordes esque levels, without any of the detriments hordes suffers.

I do Not believe that a Titan Cannoneer is on par with a defender. MAT 7 RAT 6 is what draws the line. And 4" of range. And more survivability. And the ability to function outside of your Warnoun's control area. And in faction buffs to it's arguably superior shooting attack. As a whole I think that Hordes has become less powerful than Warmachine in general. Less powerful troops, less powerful Warnoun's, less powerful system.

[Yertle4]

I do Not believe that a Titan Cannoneer is on par with a defender. MAT 7 RAT 6 is what draws the line. And 4" of range. And more survivability. And the ability to function outside of your Warnoun's control area. And in faction buffs to it's arguably superior shooting attack. As a whole I think that Hordes has become less powerful than Warmachine in general. Less powerful troops, less powerful Warnoun's, less powerful system.

It's not 'on par' with the Defender as such, but its gun has a natural AOE, usually gets doubled boosted, and comes with 2 melee attacks. It also has a pretty good animus, and a cheeky smile.

The Cannoneer is as solid as ever.

[Helion]

I suppose the cannoneer isn't the best example, but the point is that generally, Hordes stats and abilities are lack luster when compared to Warmachine. At least for now. This is just the Field Test, so a LOT can change, and I hope it does. I love some of the changes to Skorne, but I also have a pretty big beef with a lot of the changes as well.

[DeathnGlory]

5 stages of Grief Skorne Styleee

1-Denial- Ok they seem to have let the editor's nephew loose on our rules again. Bless his little heart - he must have worked out a way to pick the lock of his cage. Now if the real game designers could just get back to work....

2-Anger- "+1 MAT on Hexeris?!?!? Are you kidding me? Are you &#*$ing kidding me!?!?!"

3-Bargaining- How about just giving the Gladiator +1 MAT? Just 1 more lousy MAT goddam you!! Please... I won't tell the Everblight players. Oh and while you're at it completely overhaul the spells on Hexeris, Mordikaar and all of our 5 Fury Warlocks?

4-Depression- Facing the lone model of the Butcher camping on focus with 10 Praetorian Swordsmen, 6 Venators, 2 Ancestral Guardians, some Ferox, any number/combination of light warbeasts and pMorghoul.

5-Acceptance- Metamorphosis was just a dream.... a pretty dream. We could compete and laugh and dance and blind everyone. But I've woken up now and this is how it all should be. We are out-shot and out-maneuvered by Trollbloods, out muscled by Orboros and have less survivability than Everblight. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. I like congratulating brand new Warmachine players on their ability to utterly a*#e rape me even though they have no concept of the rules or the interaction of the models. This is all a good thing and I am happy.

[Deathraven]

@ DeathnGlory: Nice one! You forgot the stage where we go around begging people for games of mk1 before it's too late though.
Really though, I'm hoping for a stage 6 where PP release an update with some nice new spells to test on Mordikarr and Hexeris and we all jump for joy.

[Skeenip]

Despite the gloom and doom I have confidence PP are re*****sing our situation. Considering the general consensus here [see skorne's plight] I'm sure feedback in general has been on the underpowered/lacking when reviewing our models.

The optimist in me believes the reason we didn't see much in the way of changes in the last update is due to the complexity of our problem, where a simple +stat here or there isn't enough to get the character back into our faction. Perhaps PP didn't want to band aid us and are just bidding time so that they can look deeper into the issues?

[SaltyBob]

5 stages of Grief Skorne Styleee

1-Denial- Ok they seem to have let the editor's nephew loose on our rules again. Bless his little heart - he must have worked out a way to pick the lock of his cage. Now if the real game designers could just get back to work....

2-Anger- "+1 MAT on Hexeris?!?!? Are you kidding me? Are you &#*$ing kidding me!?!?!"

3-Bargaining- How about just giving the Gladiator +1 MAT? Just 1 more lousy MAT goddam you!! Please... I won't tell the Everblight players. Oh and while you're at it completely overhaul the spells on Hexeris, Mordikaar and all of our 5 Fury Warlocks?

4-Depression- Facing the lone model of the Butcher camping on focus with 10 Praetorian Swordsmen, 6 Venators, 2 Ancestral Guardians, some Ferox, any number/combination of light warbeasts and pMorghoul.

5-Acceptance- Metamorphosis was just a dream.... a pretty dream. We could compete and laugh and dance and blind everyone. But I've woken up now and this is how it all should be. We are out-shot and out-maneuvered by Trollbloods, out muscled by Orboros and have less survivability than Everblight. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. I like congratulating brand new Warmachine players on their ability to utterly a*#e rape me even though they have no concept of the rules or the interaction of the models. This is all a good thing and I am happy.

Damn funny stuff.

For me it was
1- Denial. Hahahahha look they sent out a PDF made by the GW guys to screw with my head.

2- Anger. I spent how much time puttying my Bronzback, and for what?

3- Bargaining. I'll promise to buy more models if only you make some worth buying.

4- Depression. Guess I might as well get used to playing Makeda, Molik Karn and the TC every game. I hope my opponent doesn't mind me proxing Gundrun for the TC and a Castigator for MK.

5- Acceptance. Everyone seems so happy when they see me pull out my Skorn to play against them. This must be the new Meta that everyone is talking about. The Skorn theme really does shine through, giving your opponent the opportunity to play their 3rd tier lists and have a relaxing play experience. I'm basically doing a community service.

[lord tyrant watt]

fellas, i dont know about you, but im winning every game i play. Literally, every game.

The Skorne are really different, with no synergy, and i dont like it. I have wishful thinking that we will get old Skorne back!
But...they are crazy fast! I can pin my opponent 6 inches or less from his deployment zone and not let them out.

This is not a tactic that i like, but i think the Skorne are supposed to run like this now.
A fast, hard hitting, in your face type of warfare!

Steps to winning with Skorne in the Field Test:

1. Lots of Infantry, fast ones, sacrifice them on the way to battle. Just get there.
2. "Brute" to protect the lumbering beasts that fall behind.
3. Makedas, Molik, Tyrant Commander
4. pin the opponent with overwhelming amounts of troops with vengance.
5. Get into possistion with your heavy hitters, Molik, cetrati, whoever and deliver the death blow to the opposing force.

I have found that if Skorne goes first and you use this tactic, there is almost nothing the opponent can do to stop it.

Try it out, and good luck!

[Yertle4]

fellas, i dont know about you, but im winning every game i play. Literally, every game.

Yes, but you're like... stupidly good.

Your suggestions are sound, but as you noted - boring. I thought the whole point of MkII was to eliminate auto-includes, one track lists, easy-buttons....

This does not bode well.

[droffset]

Threads in this forum have hinted at this list since the pdf was released. The same models kept coming up in every discussion. Put them together, in the hands of a great player, and here you go. The new face of Skorne, and someone finally said it out loud.

[Yertle4]

Threads in this forum have hinted at this list since the pdf was released. The same models kept coming up in every discussion. Put them together, in the hands of a great player, and here you go. The new face of Skorne, and someone finally said it out loud.

We've been saying it out loud all along, we just refuse to believe that 'this is it' . I refuse to believe that this is it.
Scalpel said it on Boosted Damage #14, literally out loud 'Skorne only had 1 list now'.

It would be nice to get some developper's perspectives on things though. They seem to love other factions equally.

[Khador247]

5 stages of Grief Skorne Styleee

1-Denial- Ok they seem to have let the editor's nephew loose on our rules again. Bless his little heart - he must have worked out a way to pick the lock of his cage. Now if the real game designers could just get back to work....

2-Anger- "+1 MAT on Hexeris?!?!? Are you kidding me? Are you &#*$ing kidding me!?!?!"

3-Bargaining- How about just giving the Gladiator +1 MAT? Just 1 more lousy MAT goddam you!! Please... I won't tell the Everblight players. Oh and while you're at it completely overhaul the spells on Hexeris, Mordikaar and all of our 5 Fury Warlocks?

4-Depression- Facing the lone model of the Butcher camping on focus with 10 Praetorian Swordsmen, 6 Venators, 2 Ancestral Guardians, some Ferox, any number/combination of light warbeasts and pMorghoul.

5-Acceptance- Metamorphosis was just a dream.... a pretty dream. We could compete and laugh and dance and blind everyone. But I've woken up now and this is how it all should be. We are out-shot and out-maneuvered by Trollbloods, out muscled by Orboros and have less survivability than Everblight. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. I like congratulating brand new Warmachine players on their ability to utterly a*#e rape me even though they have no concept of the rules or the interaction of the models. This is all a good thing and I am happy.

I LOLd at this. It makes me sad that it's so true though. Well, the depression part is a bit of a stretch. I mean really, 2 Ancestral Guardians and Venators? Who wants to bother fielding those.

[kakita]

I've heard good things of a cataphract army as well. Xerxis with Cetrati/Arcuarii. Weather the storm. If they come within range, reel em in. Turn them into paste.

[Khador247]

It would be nice to get some developper's perspectives on things though. They seem to love other factions equally.

That would indeed be nice. I haven't seen Soles or DC posting in any of the Skorne threads yet.

[droffset]

We've been saying it out loud all along, we just refuse to believe that 'this is it' . I refuse to believe that this is it.
Scalpel said it on Boosted Damage #14, literally out loud 'Skorne only had 1 list now'.

It would be nice to get some developper's perspectives on things though. They seem to love other factions equally.

But it made for a lovely dramatic paragraph didn't it? So what if people have been screaming it from the rooftops all along.

Anyway, I'm off to buy some Immortals and some more Preats, and molik, and the TC. The Titans will make great bookends.

@DeathnGlory - That was classic thanks

[lord tyrant watt]

I've heard good things of a cataphract army as well. Xerxis with Cetrati/Arcuarii. Weather the storm. If they come within range, reel em in. Turn them into paste.

It is really good and really fast. With Martial Disipline, and the Tyrant Commanders they fly across the field. Add in the Ferox with fury to make sure the cataphract brick gets there untouched, and release Total Annihilation.

Rinse and repeat.

Like i said ,the Skorne are still very good, just not what we all know, and want them to be.

[Yertle4]

Ferox are really good with Xerxis as the hammer to the anvil - just put fury on them, and with a charge + feat (they will be in feat range once they hit), you've just crushed a melee army from both ends. Against a ranged army, you've engaged them and bought time for your death machine.

Sadest thing? No beasts needed at all

That would indeed be nice. I haven't seen Soles or DC posting in any of the Skorne threads yet.

Soles posted twice in the 'Gladiator is neutered' thread. That's our grand discussion achievement.

[legionaires]

See this is were I hate to rag on DC but seriously I am finding it very hard to point to much that is over powered in Skorne. I'm afraid most of my feedback is going to be on the cutting room floor because of what he has said though I'm not seeing much of anything wrong with the other factions. Oh well, guess its good I have a Khador army. Sigh.

[Deathraven]

See this is were I hate to rag on DC but seriously I am finding it very hard to point to much that is over powered in Skorne. I'm afraid most of my feedback is going to be on the cutting room floor because of what he has said though I'm not seeing much of anything wrong with the other factions. Oh well, guess its good I have a Khador army. Sigh.

I think most skorne players will be in that same position and I doubt they will dump all of our feedback.

[Yertle4]

See this is were I hate to rag on DC but seriously I am finding it very hard to point to much that is over powered in Skorne. I'm afraid most of my feedback is going to be on the cutting room floor because of what he has said though I'm not seeing much of anything wrong with the other factions. Oh well, guess its good I have a Khador army. Sigh.

You can always submit the Tormentor, Molik, pMakeda and the Tyrant as OP and make little suggestions about how they could be fixed. At least it demonstrates that you're thinking about stuff.

ie. I submitted the Tormentor at -1 CMD. TC loses Take Down for something less set to screw Trolls/Beasts. Molik gets Fate Ward in-built, drops in PC but Fate Ward changed to 'cannot use focus/force to boost'.

Little thing like that. I'm confident there will be such a flood of negative feedback on the Skorne that those little things won't matter all that much.

[Mutton]

Built in Fate Ward. You're kidding me.

[viperidae99]

I'm confident there will be such a flood of negative feedback on the Skorne that those little things won't matter all that much.

Wait a sec, you're so confident there'll be such a flood of negative feedback about Skorne that you adding some more won't matter? Like playing Russian Roulette and going "Nah, add 3 more bullets!"

Eh?!! Thanks I guess...

Maybe if the few items still worth their points are reduced, we'll have more options lol!

[Helion]

heh, too bad those few things seem to be one of our locks, a Unique beast, and a FA 2 army attachment. Then loads of praets.

[Yertle4]

Built in Fate Ward. You're kidding me.

Weaken it quite drastically - save a fury. Seems fair. He's ok at 11 now but get be buffed a little to being a little OP (with our only melee DEF buff!). Ever seen Molik NOT Fate Ward at the very beginning of his activation? Yeah, me neither.

Wait a sec, you're so confident there'll be such a flood of negative feedback about Skorne that you adding some more won't matter? Like playing Russian Roulette and going "Nah, add 3 more bullets!"

Eh?!! Thanks I guess...

Maybe a little unclear - it's pretty clear that a lot of Skorne stuff sucks, as much as that saddens us emo lot.
About 50% of the feedback I have submitted was Underpowered, 45% neutral (some with little buff/nerf suggestions - like Karn, or Ferox) and 5% OP (with disclaimers for little things).

I think those proportions make the OP stuff look pretty damn close to 'where we want things to be' rather than actually OP. The mere fact that you submit some stuff as OP shows that you at least consider the power scale of the faction rather than just going 'buff me plz!!!!'
That'll look better to DC and Soles when they are reading ~3000 pages of Skorne feedback, rather than just 100% Underpowered.

.... I hope you understand my point, because I'm not sure I do anymore..

[viperidae99]

... as much as that saddens us emo lot.

Emo lot?!?! Take that back or I'm cutting myself!

About 50% of the feedback I have submitted was Underpowered, 45% neutral (some with little buff/nerf suggestions - like Karn, or Ferox) and 5% OP (with disclaimers for little things).

I think those proportions make the OP stuff look pretty damn close to 'where we want things to be' rather than actually OP.

If they only look at your stuff, yeah, that's pretty balanced. I'm not sure what you'd submit as OP though, as I personally don't think we have any. Show me a faction that has nothing worth its points?

However, imagine there's a bunch of people complaining that the Master Tormentor and Molik are OP in feedback (hard to imagine I know). In comes feedback from Skorne players agreeing with that feedback. Having resisted the whining up until this point, the playtesters finally bow to universal player opinion that these things are OP, and bring them back down to where the rest of the faction is...the gutter.

This doesn't seem like an optimal use of feedback to me.

By all means say what you think, and don't just whine about everything needing a buff, but don't add in stuff as being OP, when you don't think it is, simply to seem more balanced in your feedback and because it won't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Every bit of feedback matters in the grand scheme of things (or so I tell myself while crying in my emo den)

[DeathnGlory]

I've heard good things of a cataphract army as well. Xerxis with Cetrati/Arcuarii. Weather the storm. If they come within range, reel em in. Turn them into paste.

There's some really goods things with this list. Except the low model count and the ability of every warmachine faction to hose it in its tracks.

I'm playing Xersis/MK/Cetrati/TC almost exclusively now to see how this competes. Against Hordes it's not too bad though I have not played against a serious Everblight list. Most WM lists I've played against are kinda fluffy too. If I did a Necra-Chi and played my Cygnar against my Skorne I really wouldn't stand a chance. In fact with Brisbane I think I could take that 35pt Skorne list with 20pts.

[SaltyBob]

It's so sad to compare our Heavy beasts to a unit of Cetrati now. I mean why in the world would I take a Titan when I can use these guys? Better MAT, more health, better damage output, no Frenzy checks, faster, reach the list goes on and on.

Just bring a Cannoneer, Drake, Brute or Savage for the mandatory Fury generation and put as many infantry on the table as possible. This can't be what was intended in MK2.

[SaltyBob]

See this is were I hate to rag on DC but seriously I am finding it very hard to point to much that is over powered in Skorne. I'm afraid most of my feedback is going to be on the cutting room floor because of what he has said though I'm not seeing much of anything wrong with the other factions. Oh well, guess its good I have a Khador army. Sigh.

I have the exact same problem. I have a Word document with all my intended feedback on it for all the models. I keep going through it thinking, there has to be something that I can put down as overpowered. I'll just have no credibility if I don't submit some stuff as needing toning down.

The Tyrant Commander and Road to War aside what else is there? Paingivers perhaps should be reduced to 2" range on their abilities? But the Choir has 3" so I don't even know about that one.

[droffset]

Even though MK1 is in the past it's still going to feel like your starting out having lost a lot from MK1 that didn't seem deserved.

So to be expected to ask for them to take more away so you can have back what they removed is a hard one to swallow. It still feels like a net loss, and a tusk to the groin. Especially if you decide to look at your opponents' cards.