Convince me to convert to Menoth

[OSOI]

Okay I have been playing Warmachine for a few years with Cygnar now and am deciding to hang them up for a Faction that to me seems more of a cohesive whole.

I am looking at playing a more Control, Denial and maybe attrition type of game and have narrowed the two factioons down to Menth and Circle (I know completely opposed in the storyline) as they both really appeal to me. I want you guys to try and convince me to play Menoth, its really just to see if theres stuff that I havent thought of, provoke responses etc. At the moment I will only be buying into one of the factions but will most likely go into the other at a later date.

The models that I like in the Menoth range either from rules, model or background wise are: Kreoss (both versions), The Harbinger, Bastions, Cinerators, Paladins plus Vilmon, Choir, Avatar and pretty much all the other Jacks.

Looking forward to having a great discussion with you guys

[Syas]

Convince me to convert to Menoth

ANY QUESTIONS HERETIC?!?

[Bastion5]

If you played a gunline Cygnar... welcome and enjoy your now aquired pair. Menoth is an attrition based melee army. menoth is a big change. Cygnar is fast and shooty, and Menoth is slow and heavy hitting. Not as slow as khador or as heavy hitting but they kick more *** then Cygnar.

[thesavage]

ANY QUESTIONS HERETIC?!?

Knew that was coming. As a Cygnar player who heard the call of Menoth also, I like them because of how different they are from Cygnar, at least as far as my army is concerned. I have a lot of trenchers, so I normally wait for my enemy to come to me, and gun them down in the process. With Protectorate, you really have to bring the fight to your enemy, since the Protectorate doesn't have a whole lot in the way of shooting, but lots of flaming swords/spears/torches.

Also, there is just something fun about playing crazy fanatics. You don't feel bad if they die. Er, I mean sacrificing themselves for the greater good, of course . . . my amusement. BWHAHAHAHA!

So far I only have the battlebox (and some mercs who work for Protectorate), but I hope to soon have at least a tier 3 Harby list.

Of course, the best part is its great to demo a game for your friends, because they armies are so different.

As for Circle, I personally have little interest in Hordes. I got into the game because of the giant steam-powered robots, but you might feel differently. Just remember with Protectorate, at least you have the cards now.

[OSOI]

ANY QUESTIONS HERETIC?!?

That made me chuckle a bit, and I was expecting it

I played Siege, Darius and Haley with Cygnar as a little bit of combined arms.

As far as considering Circle as well I do like the constructs (primarily) plus I like how the Fury mechanic works ... but I also love steam belching giant robots

[PG_69Lazarus]

Go with whichever one you like the look of the best.

[darisus]

ONE thing, Menoth book and cards are out now.... Might as well wait to get hordes stuff till book is out then you won't have to buy a faction deck also, plus some rules may still be tweeked in hordes yet cause it is not final.

[moorg]

I played Siege, Darius and Haley with Cygnar as a little bit of combined arms.

In that case, you'll love what they did to the Exemplar Errants in MKII. They do combined arms really well (they're Weapon Masters in melee, and their ranged attacks ignore Spell buffs to DEF and ARM), especially with the new UA coming out that'll give them Pathfinder, Purity and Quick Work... Plus Exemplar models look really sexy.

[Reverend]

ONE thing, Menoth book and cards are out now.... Might as well wait to get hordes stuff till book is out then you won't have to buy a faction deck also, plus some rules may still be tweeked in hordes yet cause it is not final.

This is probably the most sage advice you will receive on this thread. If you were going to pick up the one you didn't initially choose later, then get Menoth now.
When I first got into Warmachine, it was the Cryx models that drew me in, but once I got the rules and read the background material it was the story of the Protectorate that got me. It's probably the masochist in me, but I will always pick the army or faction that is the hardest to win with. Menoth depends on it's synergies to work correctly, and if you screw it up once, you may not get another chance.

[OSOI]

Go with whichever one you like the look of the best.

I like the look of both of them a lot, I must admit though Menoth is edging out a little in front for me at the moment

Thank you all for your time and effort taken so far. I will be coming back with more questions such as ...

Can Menoth plug and play their casters relatively easily? I am not really interested in going too troop heavy, I deep down prefer Jacks (I dont count med base infantry really as troops) and would prefer to run a little Jack heavy

[Fryerdan]

I don't know which cygnar you've been playing but at least the stuff I field for the cygnar are all about control, denial and attrition.

My wife plays menoth and they seem more about setting everything on fire and smashing it with weapon masters while saying "thou shalt not..." and inserting whatever the enemy wants to do at the end.

Thesavage. With trenchers if you're waiting for them to come to you, you're doin it wrong =P. Trenchers love to be aggressive. Their defensive abilities just allow them to survive all the madness flying around the battlefield to reach assault range.

Reverend is right about the synergies. Menoth doesn't work unless you set up your list to work as a cohesive whole. While some factions can get away with a hodgepodge of somewhat independant models Menoth collapses quickly without the right supporters in the right places.

[Syas]

There are some solid options for Jack Heavy casters. As far as plug and play, the Choir/Vassal/Covenant + Jacks tends to be more of benefit than a specific caster, so I would say that they are fairly plug and play.

Obviously some will drastically outperform others in various fields. High Reclaimer wants lots of troops but Amon really works best with tons of jacks.

[thesavage]

Thesavage. With trenchers if you're waiting for them to come to you, you're doin it wrong =P. Trenchers love to be aggressive. Their defensive abilities just allow them to survive all the madness flying around the battlefield to reach assault range.

That's funny. I've won a few games with them. I didn't realize I was doing it wrong. Maybe I should rephrase it. Trencher infantry are more defensive than, say, commandos or stormblades. One of the reasons trenchers are so great is because they can do many different things. They can be defensive, or they can be offensive, or they can create a wall of smoke for your army to hide behind. However, there are often things that are more specialized to one specific task. In particular, my opponents often field units which my trenchers would rather pick off from a distance. I guess it all depends on what you are facing.

[Jetboy200]

A cygnar player wanting to come to the light? I will welcome you with open arms.

Move away from us and I will burn you to the ground.

Welcome brother.

[Bastion5]

A cygnar player wanting to come to the light? I will welcome you with open arms.

Move away from us and I will burn you to the ground.

Welcome brother.

What he said

[OSOI]

Well after a lot of thinking I have decided to start with Menoth. Now time for some help with first purchases...

1. Forces book for Menoth (plus Deck)
2. Avatar
3. Plastic Heavy Jack Kit

Now the help is required I was thinking Harby for the caster (I know its a ****** to assemble but I have some conversion ideas plus Ive been modelling for about 10+ years) I dont want to play with much infantry so any choices should be flexible, I really dont like Zealots, Cavalry or Idrians but anything else is fair game, as for other casters I'm open to suggestions I will be getting Kreoss but waiting for the new sculpt to hit shelves.

Thanks for the help so far

[Silverstar843]

You like Harby? Go with Temple Flameguard. Possibly Exemplar Errants, I have no experiance with them though. You will also want a choir. I highly recommend 1 or 2 Vassals as well. As for other jacks, a crusader is a solid choice and a devout is nice with her, to protect her. If you're looking for other casters, pSevy is nice for beginners, as is either Kreoss. pKreoss seems to have almost very strict army composition, seemily favoring ranged. I find most of our casters have little to no learning curve, though.

Why no Zealots, Idrians, or Cav?

Idrians have become my favorite unit in Menoth. They can just annihilate all but the hardest armored targets and even then, they can really scratch the paint. Zealots in MK I, I never went into a game without. In MK II, well, they are ok, but I'm not crazy about them. At least I've grown out of flat-out hating them.

[darisus]

Why get the deck? You got the book with all the models, and anything new you buy should have the new cards.... Just trying to save you $15 that is a solo right there.

[FieryGecko]

Go, go Harby Tier list!

Paladins (including The Vilmonster), Avatar, heavy melee jacks (x3!). You can't afford infantry (except maybe a choir) even if you wanted to, but your heavies get cheaper and smash face

Example shopping list:

Book & cards
Avatar box
Guardian box
2x Plastic heavy boxes
Vilmon blister
2x Paladin blisters (there is an alternate model too so they can both be different)
2x choir blisters (1 is leader & acolyte, 2nd will be two acolytes)
1x menofixer
and/or
1x heirophant.

That gives you a 35pt T4 Harby list and also a nice array of models in case you want to expand away from the Tiers or shift towards another caster (as long as you're magnetising the plastic kits anyway).

Sample list I had in mind:

Harby (-5)
- Guardian 8
- Templar 7
- Crusader 5
Avatar 10
Vilmon 3
2x Paladin 4
Choir (min) 2
Menofixer 1

And if Harby has 6WJ points after all you could trade the fixer for a Heirophant to heal Harby after she martyrs the paladins.

That is pretty much exactly what I was going to be aiming for with my Harby list when I finish with my Feora addiction.

[OSOI]

Why no Zealots, Idrians, or Cav?

Merely Just for the fact I dont like the models, plus I dont like cav in the IK, I know it probably sound stupid but its a personal thing

Why get the deck? You got the book with all the models, and anything new you buy should have the new cards.... Just trying to save you $15 that is a solo right there.

I spose i could drop the deck, its not essential

[Silverstar843]

not at all, I hate the "I'm-going-to-tap-you-on-the-forehead-if-only-I-could-reach" zealot model especially

[OSOI]

Go, go Harby Tier list!

Hmmm very tempting, I take it that all the choices are quite flexible in use with other casters as well?

And who else runs Jacks well (apart from Amon, who I am also considering down the track)

[FieryGecko]

Hmmm very tempting, I take it that all the choices are quite flexible in use with other casters as well?

Well the Avatar is awesomesauce with any caster. Magnetised heavy kits are also great, each of the options is quite decent in and of itself but the vanquisher specially. The Guardian is sometimes considered a bit meh but it actually isn't too bad a combination of heavy beatstick + arc node really (for casters that need that sort of thing).

Paladins are solid solos in and of themselves and get better when they hit the table with Vilmon.

Choir you'll want in pretty much any list that has 2 or more jacks. They offer so much it is really hard to justify going without them.

Menofixer is a nice little 1pt gap filler. The alternative to it is wracks (but you cannot have those in a Harby Tier list)

Heirophant works well with any number of our casters with half decent couple of spells to cast.

[Moonblade]

Aiming for Harbinger Tier List is a good start. Three heavy jack kits and the Avatar are all awesome purchases you won't regret. Vilmon is a 3pt Solo who's MAT 9 (highest in the game) with P+S 15 Weaponmaster Reach, and immune to non-magical attacks, and with Harbinger you can even martyr him when he's down.

[OSOI]

Done, I will placing my order tonight, try and figure out which online store is the best buy for me since I'm in Australia

[Marius]

Paladins are solid solos in and of themselves and get better when they hit the table with Vilmon.

Remember that Paladins are normally FA:2, so if you buy a third one (not including Vilmon) you will only be able to use him in a Harbinger tier list.

[PG_69Lazarus]

And who else runs Jacks well (apart from Amon, who I am also considering down the track)

I LOVE E-Feora for this. Escort gives her all of her Warjacks +2" movement making them very mobile. Her feat allows for focus allocation which helps feed hungry jacks and the Reclaimer can help with this to. I'm often running 5-6 Warjacks with her without any problem.

E-Feroa also comes with a Warjack bond which is always something to consider.

[OSOI]

I LOVE E-Feora for this. Escort gives her all of her Warjacks +2" movement making them very mobile. Her feat allows for focus allocation which helps feed hungry jacks and the Reclaimer can help with this to. I'm often running 5-6 Warjacks with her without any problem.

E-Feroa also comes with a Warjack bond which is always something to consider.

Thanks, what sort of Jacks do you normally run with eFeora? And in particular with PoM when running Jack heavy is it usually mainly Lights or Heavies?

[Yentz]

Thanks, what sort of Jacks do you normally run with eFeora? And in particular with PoM when running Jack heavy is it usually mainly Lights or Heavies?

Typically Lights with a heavy or two tossed in. Light warjacks I like with eFeora...

Redeemer(One, bonded, always)
Repenters(1-3)
Devout(0-1)
Dervish(0-2)

For Heavies, I usually pick one from this list...
Reckoner
Vanquisher
Crusader

I don't ever bother with Arcnodes for eFeora, and I dislike taking the Avatar with her, since it does not benefit from Escort.

[PG_69Lazarus]

I think you'll usually have more problems finding a bad Warjack choice for her.

From a straight up power perspective I like:

Heavies
Fire Of Salvation. This thing hits like a brick and gets extra movement when your stuff dies.

Vanquisher. It lights stuff on fire and you like fire.

Reckoner. Solid ranged option and reach.



Lights
Dervish. Crazy good bonded to her. I've replaced the Redeemer with it.

Redeemer. Obviously great for setting stuff on fire at range.

Devout. Some people say overpriced but I'm operating her waaay up front and it affords me better protection and usually satisfies my Escort requirements.

Repenter. Awesome flame thrower with Choir support.





Other jacks I like are strictly from a fluff/looks standpoint. All of my lists of late have the Guardian in it (themewise fantastic) and a Castigator since it's an awesome looking model. I've gotten both of them to perform very well although I honestly don't use the Arc Node much.



My biggest issue when I'm playing POM is trying not to allow myself to put waay too many jacks into my list. She isn't a jack caster so much as a jack buddy, but I often have 5-6 jacks with her.

[Justicator]

Hmmm very tempting, I take it that all the choices are quite flexible in use with other casters as well?

And who else runs Jacks well (apart from Amon, who I am also considering down the track)

I love Reznik for running jacks. His Tier lists are pretty good as well.

Give Reznik some focus efficient Jacks like Reckoner, Repenter, and the Avatar to back up some beat sticks and you'll have fun with him.

[Moonblade]

Reznik Tier 4 list is very feasible in 35 points, but you also need to take 2 units of Cleansers which may prove to be a bother. Otherwise, Reckoners and Wracks are very useful with other warcasters.

Since you seem like aiming towards Harbinger Tier, I'll suggest you my 35pt list:
Harbinger of Menoth
- Guardian
- Crusader
- Crusader
Avatar of Menoth
Choir of Menoth (6)
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon
Paladin of the Wall x2
Vassal Mechanik x2

From here you'll have 2 Heavy Warjack Kits, which you can magnetize and use for other warcasters. Vassal Mechaniks are cheap (points-wise), great, and usable in most Tier Lists. The Guardian is a heavy arc node, which is very suitable for Harbinger because she only arcs one spell. It's also useful with pFeora because she discounts its steep cost, and with other casters who you don't want a dedicated arc node for. Choir, just take them and love them, don't ask.

For versatility you might want to change the 2 Paladins to something else, for example a minimum unit of Temple Flameguards.

[Marius]

Heirarch Severius can run both ranged and melee jacks very well. Consequently, he does best with hybrid jacks like the Reckoner or Vanquisher. The basic principle is using Awareness to shoot ignoring a lot of LoS blocking things and attack (shoot, charge, slam etc) with a 360 degree LoS. He doesn't want a huge number of jacks, probably less than eFeora, Reznik and Amon, but he can still comfortably run 3+ jacks and get good use out of them. He also gets plenty of mileage out of an arc node warjack.

He's not so keen on the Avatar (although points allowing anyone can run that jack efficiently) as Awareness is battle group only so doesn't affect it and the Avatar is a bad choice for his defensive spell.

[OSOI]

Okay guys, I bought the book and I have to say I am loving it. I thought I would give it a good read through before model purchases and just want to go through a few choices before I lay down some of my hard earned cash.

Casters:
Harby - Love the model and background and rules
eFeora- Nice looking Jack buddy and looks like some real fun

Jacks:
Avatar - Looks good (esp after some conversion), works well with Harby
Templar/Crusader/Vanquisher - 3 kits magnetised look to give a lot of flexibility and work well with both casters above
Devout - I see it almost as essential with Harby due to her large base, and looks like eFeora will like it too due to her aggressive nature

Units:
Choir - nuff said

Solos:
Vilmon + 2 Paladins - I like these guys in so many ways
Menofixer - good all round utility
Heirophant - If only to heal Harby from Matyrdom

Now I will start off going Harby T4 themed as it seems effective and looks like fun, going from there I am looking at the following to work with Harby and eFeora (prob not looking at any themed list with her)

Covenant - good support with anti KD etc
Bastions - Rock solid, hit well, look great
Vassals - good jack support and I like Jacks
Rhoven - another solid support piece

Apart from perhaps TFG plus the UA I'm not really sure about other units (except multiple Bastions maybe ...). I have also been looking at the Guardian as he seems solid in Melee and a durable arc node, he just seems a little expensive and looks like he may not get to use his Node much due to being tied up in combat ... thoughts?

[Yentz]

You pretty much nailed it on the head. I'm not a fan of Rhoven, due to the models, and I don't think he brings all that much to the support party, but thats about it.

Consider Repenters, and a Bonded Redeemer for eFeora(A Bonded redeemer with her is just downright disgusting). Devout is not *always* needed for eFeora, but it is certainly nice. The list I use, I usually either swap in a Devout or a Crusader, depending on what I am facing. Devout for Harbinger is pretty much a must, especially if you don't bring Cleansers or Gorman.

[Moonblade]

Don't get Hierophant, he's not included in Harbinger's Tier, and does very little for eFeora.

3 Heavy Warjack kit is very useful, but for Harbinger you might want to consider just 2 of them and a Guardian. She has only one spell to arc, but it's a very good spell to nullify your opponent's unit. Therefore she doesn't like having a dedicated arc node and prefers having something that can stab 'jack ***** too, moreover with a funky critical that can mess your opponent's day.

Same thing goes for eFeora, I think 3 Heavy Warjack Kit are too much. I usually take a Vanquisher (or two), a Templar (or not if I take 2 Vanqs), and a bonded Redeemer. It's guaranteed to spread enough fire on the battlefield, and what you need next is the heavy-hitters (Ignited, Choir-ed Avatar = P+S 23 monstrosity).

With three heavy warjacks and the Avatar all able to screen Harbinger you don't really need a Devout. I suggest leave that one out to save some cash except you're playing pFeora or Amon.

Simply put, I suggest not to buy Devouts and Hierophant, and (for the time being) buy just 2 Heavy Warjack Kits.

[Yentz]

Don't get Hierophant, he's not included in Harbinger's Tier, and does very little for eFeora.

3 Heavy Warjack kit is very useful, but for Harbinger you might want to consider just 2 of them and a Guardian. She has only one spell to arc, but it's a very good spell to nullify your opponent's unit. Therefore she doesn't like having a dedicated arc node and prefers having something that can stab 'jack ***** too, moreover with a funky critical that can mess your opponent's day.

Same thing goes for eFeora, I think 3 Heavy Warjack Kit are too much. I usually take a Vanquisher (or two), a Templar (or not if I take 2 Vanqs), and a bonded Redeemer. It's guaranteed to spread enough fire on the battlefield, and what you need next is the heavy-hitters (Ignited, Choir-ed Avatar = P+S 23 monstrosity).

With three heavy warjacks and the Avatar all able to screen Harbinger you don't really need a Devout. I suggest leave that one out to save some cash except you're playing pFeora or Amon.

Simply put, I suggest not to buy Devouts and Hierophant, and (for the time being) buy just 2 Heavy Warjack Kits.

1. Hierophant is in Harbingers Tier List. Bring it. Always.
2. Hierophant is most certainly useful for eFeora. Considering she rarely brings an arc node to the party, the +2 range for spells is useful, as well as reducing spell costs. And if she gets hurt, he can always heal.

[PG_69Lazarus]

Don't get Hierophant, he's not included in Harbinger's Tier, and does very little for eFeora.

I started including the Hierophant in my E-Feora lists and it has been very helpfull. Saving 1 extra focus per turn is really helpfull when you are trying to run multiple heavies. Cheaper Escort on turn 1 (or ignite) and cheaper ignite on later rounds lets you cylce it very cheaply. It's also great on the assassination run to be able to cast Fire Step cheaper which gives you one more attack with the Focus you saved.


I view him the same w/ Reznik (my other main Caster). Cheaper Engine of Destruction buys him one more swing of that massive sword which may be the difference of the enemy Caster's death.

[moorg]

Done, I will placing my order tonight, try and figure out which online store is the best buy for me since I'm in Australia

In that case, I recommend Defiant.

[Moonblade]

1. Hierophant is in Harbingers Tier List. Bring it. Always.

I'm pretty sure he's not.. but if you're right then my Army of the Righteous will see more wins.