Croe's Cuttroaths: never saw them fielded.

[Mr.B]

I was digging through a box of warmachine bits and found my unit of CTs... I remembered getting them and never putting them together much less fielding them. I plan on trying them out w/ Magnus but, thinking about it more i'v never seen ANYBODY EVER field there guys. Why not? They have some nice percs.

[Bert_the_Turtle]

Not a lot of people play Mercs. It could just be random chance you've not seen anyone use them.


I do believe someone also mentioned they were expensive to field. That could be part of it.

[Mr.B]

Well, Bert... i'm going to start a trend!

[Faultie]

They have low RAT, and their Backstab is hard to pull off. However, I think vs. Hordes they'd be a pretty good anti-beast unit, able to hit and do weaponmaster style damage vs. living targets. Might be worth trying out now that the Hordes MKII Field Test is up and running.

[Bert_the_Turtle]

Well, Bert... i'm going to start a trend!

You ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR~!?

[whitekong]

Good luck with them, I always loved the models and fluff but can't get them to do anything but die during the game. Plus they are outrageously expensive, at 7/10 they are the same price as nyss hunters who are one of the best units in the game.

[Mr.B]

I want try and take them along w/ Kayazy Assassins and eMagnus. Pop Underboss mini feat to run them behing enemy lines an then sit there facing the backs of the enemy. Have two units w/ back stab and deside witch ine to try and kill. Either way your opponent is stuck w/ there backs to something that's going to kill them. Hard to explain.

[Katkiller 5]

I've always had fairly good luck with them and almost always bring them with Magnus against hordes. The RAT may be a bit low, but the extra die of damage at range and in melee makes the amount of damage they can do respectable, and utterly ridiculous if they can get behind something. Bushwhack and stealth do a very solid job of keeping them alive, and hitting an enemy warcaster/lock with Croe's Hiss is always funny.

Against warmachine, they see a bit less use due to their cost, but can still be very effective if your opponent is running infantry heavy. Both Magnus's work very well with them, eMagnus can put calamity on the target to bump their attack and damage rolls, and pMagnus can toss Snipe on them to let them harass at long range.

[frostaxe]

I have tried to work them into my army as I think they are a cool unit. With aiming or bushwack I think they work well. The only issue is that there are better units to take for the same price. For me it is just a cost issue.

[Mr.B]

I have a horrible habit of building themed armies which may be the case here but, i'm def/ going to give them a go and see how they work out.

[Bert_the_Turtle]

I generally believe that good tactics can make up a big difference. If you can get the enemy disoriented, which should be your focus with this sort of list, I think you can really bust some heads.

Consider units like Anastasia di Bray with Ambush. Coming in from the flanks forces the enemy to turn to deal with them. Consider units with different knockback abilities or that can otherwise force the enemy to move around exposing their backs. If you can force them to choose between Movement or Action they may be forced to risk getting backstabbed in order to make some more important contribution to the fight.

[whitekong]

Keep in mind they have crappy defense for a unit with no armor, I think this plus their low rat is what kills them.

[altahara]

I used them in one of about every two games.. only for theme.. Been a long time but i will use them again.. and the Nyss hunters.. got an idea list..

[Mr.B]

Well i figure if i pop off an Obliterator to knock stuff down the can light it up, or cast Calamity on a unit or caster if i'm luck. Possible since Renegades have arc nodes. And let's face it. Most times after you do the one shot you're either using them as arc nodes, tar pits, or both.

[Allan255]

Like most units that have range and melee weapon they cost a lot.
In MKI it was great that Croe ( unit leader ) would be the last one standing ... now all units have it.

Backstab will be useful once in a year. Their RAT is painfully low and they'll do some damage on a living Warbeast only with some luck.
On a charge, they can do massive damage ... but def 13 arm 11, if they dont kill, they're dead.

If your opponent have some AOE or spray, they will likely be fast dead.

[Pendargon]

Their arm/def are horrible, and with their rat , they hit light warbeasts barely 50% of the time. Backstab is almost never seen.
IMHO, they really, really NEED to be 5/8 unit, because, as now things stand, they are always overlooked in favor of the far superior Nyss hunters.
Nice models, though...

[Mr.B]

Well, i might try running them w/ Midwinter, Harlan and Gorman. Like i said before there are plenty of ways to get them to hit better w/ eMagnus. If they can hit then they're worth it to me.

[I-am-robot]

I too plan on trying these guys out, if only because they are so goshdarned cool looking.
And if you're not playing with fun looking models, then there's no point in playing, by golly!

[DaughterOfFrankenstein]

We have cheap, reliable spells to do everything but increase MAT/RAT on something. Granted, we have Ashlynn, who can drop something's defense... but she hates Croe. We have Holy Calamity from eMagnus... but it's expensive, like the Cutthroats themselves.

[Verjigorm]

I generally believe that good tactics can make up a big difference. If you can get the enemy disoriented, which should be your focus with this sort of list, I think you can really bust some heads.

Consider units like Anastasia di Bray with Ambush. Coming in from the flanks forces the enemy to turn to deal with them. Consider units with different knockback abilities or that can otherwise force the enemy to move around exposing their backs. If you can force them to choose between Movement or Action they may be forced to risk getting backstabbed in order to make some more important contribution to the fight.

Di Bray and Croes can't work together.

[DaughterOfFrankenstein]

Di Bray and Croes can't work together.

Terrorists vs. Patriots, yo.

[Galleon]

I use them alittle. Thier rat 6/5 isnt so bad with an aiming bonus. Best game ive ever had with croe was him 1 hitting caine from behind. charged him with mat 9 and 5d6+10. It was awesome.

[baronvonchaos]

Gosh I love Croe, I murdered Rhyas with ranged attacks because she was in range and I aimed. I needed 9's but I had to roll at least 2 "9's" in 9 rolls. I had confidence. Killed her in the first 2 guys. (this is mk2 btw). It was awesome... Love the boosted ranged attack rolls.

The aiming bonus makes them rat7 and the way I use them they are best to hide out in a forest or something and ambush. Never thought of using Gorman. Talk about hitting on a 4-5 or better. That's not hard. That and Gorman has Stealth, Bushwack, and other things that help and synergize well with Croe.

Also it's cool to have them run up the side and flank the enemy and provide a firing squad. Boosted pow 10's at range against beasts is great! I like having the ability to do that stuff. Now, legion is another thing. And I dislike their eyeless sight shenanigans seeing stealth, but Croe works great against most other things.

Gotta stay away from AOE's though. woo. They die quick. Feora's feat will wipe them out quick.

[Mr.B]

Currently painting mine up for battle.

[Bert_the_Turtle]

Di Bray and Croes can't work together.

Just an example. You'll notice I used the word like.

[Verjigorm]

Just an example. You'll notice I used the word like.

So they can work with ambushers if they work for Khador or Protectorate? There are currently no other Merc Ambushers other than Di Bray.

Anyway, I find that if you can find a way to boost to-hit with Croes, you can kill enemy models very effectively. Backstabs are tricky, but can be done in the right list. In general, I would use Croes as a primarly anti-beast unit: they can hit most beasts on 7s or so, and with 3d6 on 10, they stand a good chance of damaging a beast. Sure, they only average 1.6 damage per cutthroat, but with calamity, Harm or any other way of buffing damage or debuffing enemy armor, you can do alot more. And that's still 16 or so damage on a typical heavy from 10" away.

[Falstead]

Everyone thinks Croes and then they immediately think Magnus. I can't blame them, I did to, it's fluffy and on paper should work.

Sadly, it doesn't most of the time.

That being said the caster they DO work ridiculously well with is Gorten. Even in MK I i had immense success running them with Gorten. Solid ground + stealth makes them difficult to deal with. Peppering the enemy with crossbow bolts is always good and Gortens feat makes them silly. You can easily pull a target or two straight at the dwarf, leaving it with the cutthroats in its back arc and then kill it with crazy good charges. MK II gave them some minor tweaks, but they're actually a decent enough unit. Not the best, but like I said, gorten gives them what thye need.

[DaughterOfFrankenstein]

That being said the caster they DO work ridiculously well with is Gorten. Even in MK I i had immense success running them with Gorten. Solid ground + stealth makes them difficult to deal with. Peppering the enemy with crossbow bolts is always good and Gortens feat makes them silly. You can easily pull a target or two straight at the dwarf, leaving it with the cutthroats in its back arc and then kill it with crazy good charges. MK II gave them some minor tweaks, but they're actually a decent enough unit. Not the best, but like I said, gorten gives them what thye need.

I've been considering an army like this ever since it was brought up months ago, but it keeps me more conservative than I like to play by far (It also doesn't help that Skorne is at the top of our local meta, meaning Ghost Sight.) Just keep in mind... Vanquisher fire doesn't care... at all.

[Mr.B]

Just keep in mind... Vanquisher fire doesn't care... at all.

Not to mention a lot of people includeing myself usually run them i pairs. Kind of hard to avoid.

[Verjigorm]

Everyone thinks Croes and then they immediately think Magnus. I can't blame them, I did to, it's fluffy and on paper should work.

Sadly, it doesn't most of the time.

That being said the caster they DO work ridiculously well with is Gorten. Even in MK I i had immense success running them with Gorten. Solid ground + stealth makes them difficult to deal with. Peppering the enemy with crossbow bolts is always good and Gortens feat makes them silly. You can easily pull a target or two straight at the dwarf, leaving it with the cutthroats in its back arc and then kill it with crazy good charges. MK II gave them some minor tweaks, but they're actually a decent enough unit. Not the best, but like I said, gorten gives them what thye need.

I had the same thought, but I pushed it away because I don't know Goreten very well.

[DaughterOfFrankenstein]

Not to mention a lot of people includeing myself usually run them in pairs. Kind of hard to avoid.

We're taking bets where I come from about how many eFeora lists are going to take center stage in tourney in '010 for this very reason.

[Angelust]

When I run pMagnus I usually have 6 cuthroats tagging along.

Two Renegades can knockdown anything screening their caster and usually the caster themselves, and then a sniped Croes can move in and pelt the caster with tons of damage.

But yeah, overpriced and squishy as a rotten tomato.

[furbs178]

In my first fight against retribution i used them with pMagnus in a four star list. With +4 range they just stood still and tore up retribution elite infantry, the ones with gun swords (who are somewhat well armored). And then they charged in and held up the unit for the rest of the game. I will probably take them anytime with Magnus except against like ....cryx

[Ger]

I have not used Croe's before. I'm also holding off on them for sometime in the future. However, I don't think they are un-playable. At the very least I think they are pointed correctly.

AD, Pathfinder, Stealth, and Bushwhack? Croe's special rules? It's really clear to me why they are costly.

Some musings as I really look at their card:
-RaT 5 and difficulty of getting the aiming bonus seems to be their key deteriment. It's pretty easy to look over the fence at a CRA unit and think "That's some green grass." Espcially when your looking at needing 7's to hit Def 12.
-RNG is alright. Not great or amazing but alright.
-The Pow is okay. With poison they should be killing most troopers in the game if they hit. They can threaten a hurting on a Warbeast but not so much a Warjack.
-Stealth, Bushwhack, and range attacks just looks like such a nasty combo though. Rolling retreat.
-Their melee attacks are pretty swift against the same models their range attacks are good against. + the charge damage die...

So tactics wise. If I where to break out this unit here's what I'd keep in mind. Call em "My rules for trying to run this unit".
1: Always have a couple Croe's hanging back ready to be promoted to Croe.
2: With his clearly superiour stats Croe would lead from the front and I'd be rather willing to put him out there with the Cutthroats being in safer positions. Target's I need a magical weapon on, something I want to silencer, or something I want to charge with reach + poison are all good reasons to put Croe somewhere he may die.
3: Gang up on a portion of an enemy unit with a lot of attacks against a few models. Sure I may not kill an entire unit in one go, but I can chew a portion of it and if I get lucky and start aceing my to hit rolls I'll put unused attacks elsewhere.
4: Gang up on a single solo with a lot of attacks. Needing 7's on 1 attack is bad. Needing 7's on 9 attacks and 6's on one is none too shabby.
5: Bushwhack, Aiming, or Advance and shoot. All interesting options and I would need to gain experience with each to really see when I want to do any of the three.
5a: Bushwhack has the advantage of working well with their stealth and spreading out to avoid AoEs.
5b: Aiming has the advantage of really helping me hit at the cost of positioning and the risk of leaving something to bypass stealth via movement. (Entering melee or walking and shooting)
5c: Advance and shoot has the advantage of highest threatrange from where they start.
6: If the enemy has AoE's it's viable to spread out such that only a portion of my unit can attack my enemy, but a single AoE is only going to get a couple of guys. New formation rules let you put together a really staggered and weird formation.
7: Backstab is nice, but it's more likely to get me to put them in a postion that doesn't take good advantage of stealth then it is to win me a game.
7a: I'm thinking I'd only run up a flank against an enemy army that bricks up with weak ability to respond or is very melee centric.


Warcaster wise I can see the point of Croe + Gorten.
I can also see where Snipe can benefit them, and where Magnus feating and winding up in back arcs could force an enemy to take backstrikes from them.
Calamity helps their accuracy and that's great. For both versions they can be a good follow up on a Renegade rocket.
Bart can't really do much with them. Though I could see where having them ahead of a Bart gunline and bushwhacking backwards would be fun.
Fiona's Roth's mercy can help Croe or other Cutthroats stay in good positons but that's nothing special. As an AD model with stealth one of them could make a halfway decent Arc Node. Even if it's likely to die. Nonokrion Brand isn't terrible with them either.
Gorten's a clear winner here. He works scary good with them in fact.
Inhospitable Ground works well with a "I shoot you and bushwhack. You can't catch me!" stratgy. They are also pretty good Primed targets. Though it takes their focus off bushwhack and puts it on charging so you'd want to plan to put them in melee. Which could be a very scary thing with the rather good accuracy they'd have in melee. Scary for Hordes to be sure.

/shrug. Their weird little guys to be sure. This has been a TheoryMachine Post.

[Mr.B]

Wow... thanks man. Very insightful

[Ger]

Just remember, as many have pointed out correctedly, they have some key weaknesses. Hitting and range. I suspect some people get tripped up over backstab as well. Also same points as the Nyss Hunters is a commonly leveraged fact.

Though really I think it's okay. If a unit like Nyss is CRAing they are getting less attacks. If more models in a unit without CRA are attacking the same target you effect less targets. In the former case you may wind up with 2-4 RaT 8 Pow 12 easily (+One RaT 9 Pow 12). In the later perhaps 9 RaT 5 Pow 10 +3d6 and 1 RaT 6 pow 10+3d6. (Assuming shooting into an living warrior unit)

I also suspect that as people get more used to Nyss they are going to learn that Officer is a weakness. Gank Cylena and they lose their range threat. It's more dependant on your foe then you, but I keep Cylena back because loosing her early is very bad. With my Fiona she is often leading from behind or at least the back middle with two or three man CRA's moving forward.

Hell here's another trick Croe can do but Cylena can't. Enemy living unit runs into melee with them. Bushwhack order. Combat Action - Melee swings. Full Advance Backwards. While they may not seem generally useful against Cryx due to loosing Poison. Your looking at some gains. McThralls will have a horrible time trying to swarm Cuttroats. They have low Def so your going to hit several of them, and you can Bushwhack back. If they try to run up on part of the unit. Guys engaged melee, guys not shoot. All Bushwhack and you risk freestrikes if it will give you good positioning.

Also Bushwhack isn't just for a rolling retreat. It's good for moving into a space you just cleared with them to mantain pressure, and to side step. Even move 3" into a forest to block LOS to them. (Smoke Bomb ontop of them, walk backwards out of it. Good trick with Trenchers?)


Ah dammit now I want a unit to play with ><

[PiousVanDorn]

I love my Croe's great against Menoth, Dwarves, Khador Infantry and Cavalry...

Killed Stannis and Exemplars etc...

They suck vs Cryx tho!!1