eLylyth

[RoyalAssassin]

With the recent buffs to Abs, and the recent lack of buffs to Rhyas, I wondered if anyone was testing out the Shadow of Everblight. I confess that I haven't given her enough table time (too wrapped up in Abs, Vayl, and eThags), but I have a couple of observations.

1. She's blindingly mobile and slippery, very hard to pin down and can easily get wherever she needs to be, but...
2. ...she doesn't hit very hard when gets there. 2 shots at POW12? She's got RAT8, Death Sentence, and Eyeless Sight, so she doesn't have real trouble with acquiring targets or putting shots in, but there aren't a lot of shots and the POW is unremarkable. With Rapid Shot, she could put 4 POW 12's into a target, all with boosted damage since she rarely needs a hit boost, and have one left over for transfer. Without out, her damage output feels awfully watery.
3. She may make better use of the Raek than anyone. ShadowStalk at 10", immune to free strikes when her Stalked charge her? For very reasonable Fury cost, she can shut off assassination runs pretty conveniently.
4. Her feat is underwhelming. Maybe I'm using it wrong, building my lists wrong, or just undervaluing a couple of extra sprays, but it seems like a really awkward fit in a faction not noted for its ranged attack beasts.

I'm not an ace player by any stretch, so before I ran crying to the feedback form, I wanted to see if anyone else was having similar results with her. I hate to blame the model for my inability to deploy it correctly

[Jice_]

With Rapid Shot, she could put 4 POW 12's into a target, all with boosted damage since she rarely needs a hit boost, and have one left over for transfer.

Considering you've worded the quoted part as if she didn't have a form of rapid shot, I'm wondering if you mean she should have rapid shot instead of snap fire? The only difference between the two is that snap fire needs to kill a target before you get an extra shot.

2x POW12's are still pretty good to take out most casters, but as far as I can tell, it's not as if, if you fail you wont be able to do the same again the round after. When most casters fail to kill they are usually left in the open, but Lylyth has everything in the book to get her back to safety. Evasive, Shadowstalk, Persuit and Shadow pack for stealth means it's not really going to be an easy win for your opponent if you fail the first time. It's the hordes equvilent of caine's teleport but better cause you move on your opponents turn as long as they are moving after you.
___

Her feat is a bit rough right now though, snipe is great on everyone, but the extra shot just from beasts isn't exactly feat like uber, and it's not the feats fault, it's the beasts fault. Straife, Rat 4 Sprays, another 12/12 from the angel, or the teraph's template is really all you have to pick from and only the teraphs and the Angel's are even decent enough to consider.

I'd actaully prefer they scrap the extra attacks if it's just too much to be on everyone and add something else too it that benefits everyone under the feat. +2 to hit or damage with ranged, Sniper(now that would be Uber), Hunter, Bushwhack, or even Dualshot would be better on the tail end of her feat.

Actaully now that I think about it, Dual shot would make it exactly like her old feat for everyone (except the archers who already have it with the UA) but not as dirty because they'd have to stand still so no first turn deployment zone barages.

It's be alot easyer to word too: Model/units that begin thier activations within Lylyth's Control area gain Snipe and an aditional RoF on thier ranged weapons, and Dualshot. <Feat> lasts one round.

[Garth]

I had some success with her. She is not our best warlock, but Rhyas and old-MK II Abby had other problems and are much worse.

What E-Lylyth can do: She can shoot 6 times in her feat turn and 4 times normally (if everyting works). She gives the whole army snipe and her beasts can shoot an other time with her Feat. And she can give her whole battle group stealth, what can be useful against some opponents (I didn't need it, yet).

With Death Sentence she has an interesting finishing moves against some warlocks and warcasters.

So how this work ?

First of all you need shooting stuff for her Feat. So Archers, Striders or Raptors.

I took Archers and Raptors with her, but only because I wanted to test the archers. What I learned after a few games with the archers: I NEVER get to shoot 2 times. Even not with her Feat. Most of the time there are better targets somewhere else, so they still move.
Strider instead can move and shoot with Rat 6 or use Bushwack (yeah....I can use Bushwack with the striders and don't get to shoot twice with the archers. I think this has something to do with AD)

Then you need something against heavy targets. I always take Raptors with her. Against Hordes they have poisened arrows and they are pow 10 weaponmasters. Then you need hard hitting beasts, that run focus efficient. I prefer 2 Angels, because they can shoot and deal a lot of damage against heavy targets without needing much fury.

So my last list looked like this:

E-Lylyth
Angelius
Angelius
Shredder
3 Raptors
10 Archer + UA
2 Deathstalkers

The Shredder was there for his animus (and he dealt 2 damage to a warpwolf *g*), the Raptors played hit and run the whole game, I didn't need to charge with them.
My opponent went first, then I feated (in the first turn) and everything in my army was able to shoot after moving. I only left alive: 3 Beasts, his caster and 1 Solo. The rest was dead in turn 1.

This is how E-Lylyth normally works.
If you go first you go into position, Feat turn 2 and kill every unit from your opponent. If you go second you can Feat in turn 1 and start killing (16" range + at least 6" movement...).
The Angels are great in the Feat turn. 2 Shoots with Eyeless sight and pow 12 each and RNG 16 can be very useful.

But the next times I will take out the archers and take Striders. Def 15 and Stealth will be much more useful, also they have Rat 6.
For the 1 point saved I will take a Shepherd for the Feat turn.
Because normally I want to boost hitting and damage of the Seraphs....and then I have a fury problem. But this 1 point solo should fix the problem.

Against the heavy targets you will have 2 Angels and the Raptors and CRA. Caster usually died because of E-Lylyth shooting at them and then (depended on the defensive stats of the casters) getting hit by Death sentence, so that CRA and Ratprs + Death Stalkers could finish them.
Oh and Death Stalkers are great for taking mission objectives. And if you look at the army above: Everything except the raptors can have Stealth :-).

Is this the best list around ? Surely not. But I think this is the best way to play E-Lylyth and sometimes it works. You auto-loose if you play against warmacine and there are 3 or more jacks on the other side. You will get big problems with Mosh Pit.


And what really scares me: Even with E-Lylyth i prefer Striders. I think I should try to sell my archers...

[Garth]

It's be alot easyer to word too: Model/units that begin thier activations within Lylyth's Control area gain Snipe and an aditional RoF on thier ranged weapons, and Dualshot. <Feat> lasts one round.

No, this would be bad. Most models never begin their activation in E-Lylyths control zone ;-). At least not by me. Raptors for example. I always moved them in her zone, because it is an aura, so they got snipe. Then they moved away 5" after shooting.

This is not the Feat I want for her. What I want would be eyeless sight for everyone shooting in her Feat, because this list can really get problems with Stealth...and I mean, this is legion after all :-).

[Jice_]

No, this would be bad. Most models never begin their activation in E-Lylyths control zone ;-). At least not by me. Raptors for example. I always moved them in her zone, because it is an aura, so they got snipe. Then they moved away 5" after shooting.

This is not the Feat I want for her. What I want would be eyeless sight for everyone shooting in her Feat, because this list can really get problems with Stealth...and I mean, this is legion after all :-).

Like I said, snipe & anything would be better than what she has, mine was only one sugestion. And hey, if it up's the RoF of beasts that means you could still move and make the extra attacks with fury. As well with her aura, evey model in the unit has to be in it to get the snipe, with a pulse (worded to include lylyth which I forgot) you'd only need one model to be within 10 for the whole unit to get the benefit. Considering Striders have a larger control area than her, that shouldn't be too hard.

And just to nit pick at your play style a bit, with the speed of the Raptors, wouldn't it be better to just use thier SPD 9 to get at what you want to target instead of wasting about 4" of forward movement just to get an extra 4"? :P

Eyeless sight was one I was thinking of too but forgot to put it down for some reason, guess my brain just got on a roll with the Dual shot thing and forgot it.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I don't think she's bad. But she isn't spectacular, and I have a hard time not thinking to myself about how much I'd rather have Pin Cushion than Death Sentence. If the lack of an ability to boost damage wasn't enough, it's the 8" range that's potentially killer.

And Snap-Fire just won't live up to Rapid-Shot, period.

All of that said, I have had success out of getting two 16" range attacks from each of the Angelii that I've run with her. It seems like that's her ideal loadout, as you'll need a reliable threat for high ARM targets - Popping Feat the turn before anticipated melee really lets you get your 9 points out an Angelius. Two fully boosted POW:12's - What's not to love?

But a less than impressive feat is only further degraded by an already small control area.

Verdict: She isn't bad. But she's not quite the 'Epic' caster that she used to be.

-s&s

[Loveless]

I've a question:

The problem with Lylyth2's feat in Mk. I was that she could destroy you on turn 1, given the appropriately moving and positioned Striders, yes?

With the nerf to Advance Deployment, wasn't this problem solved? Lylyth2's feat felt like another knee-jerk reaction to Mk. I - I don't think there'd be a huge problem in granting Dual Shot to her army on her Feat turn - I'd have to test that, though.

[Garth]

6" depoly,, 7" walk with Striders, 16" Range = 29" shooting range with Striders. They can still shoot 1" in the other depoloyment zone on turn 1.

The problem is without rapid shot this isn't as good as it used to be :-).
Becaue now each strider can shoot once and not 4 times.

[Loveless]

Eh, that just means you deploy back a bit when facing Lylyth2

I think enough of the Strider Blot-out-the-Sun move has been blotted out in other forms that Lylyth2's feat need not suffer.

[RoyalAssassin]

With the nerf to Advance Deployment, wasn't this problem solved? Lylyth2's feat felt like another knee-jerk reaction to Mk. I - I don't think there'd be a huge problem in granting Dual Shot to her army on her Feat turn - I'd have to test that, though.

I thought the exact same thing, on eLylyth along with Rhyas. They had excessive combos, and every single piece involved with those combos was brought down. Epic Lylyth took a hit to her feat, her Striders, and the Strider Officer. Rhyas took a hit to her feat and her Warchief. I'm all for adjusting combos that were too harsh, but it seems a touch overreactionary. When you look at the combinations that are still around and apparently going to stay (Karchev powersliding an Unearthly Raged Behemoth for 19.5" threat range and 5 fully boosted attacks), it makes you wonder if maybe we should adjust Lylyth back up a bit.

No, this would be bad. Most models never begin their activation in E-Lylyths control zone ;-). At least not by me. Raptors for example. I always moved them in her zone, because it is an aura, so they got snipe. Then they moved away 5" after shooting.

I've had the same problem with Lylyth's infantry being too far away to get caught up in her feat, and that started me thinking about non-infantry-buff Feats. I'm going to try her out with eCaine's feat and see how she feels with Overkill (although it'll need a line added to it that lets her violate ROF with it). She's got one less Fury than Caine has Focus, and her spell list is much shorter and less laden with fruit-chewy goodness, so I'm hoping that it'll balance out all right.

You auto-loose if you play against warmacine and there are 3 or more jacks on the other side. You will get big problems with Mosh Pit.

This. Auto-losing against Warmachine is a real problem. I don't think any Warlock should be an auto-fail as soon as someone puts Cryx on the table.

Mosh Pit, though, I'm about to give up on. Hand Gorten the Mosh Pit Trophy and forget it ever happened. My monsters just aren't resilient enough to sit in an 8" circle and take on all comers, especially if all comers includes Khador or Menoth.

[Bearded Dragon]

If the lack of an ability to boost damage wasn't enough, it's the 8" range that's potentially killer.

That's one reason I think she should get arcane extension on her bow.

[Necra-Chi]

I just like her for the stealth and shooting stuff. I give her angels to deal with high ARM and run an infantry army with her, which has its own intrinsic high value. Turning angels into snipers is awesome too.

[Mezzanine]

The only problem I have right now is that my Hellion's/Forsaken/Shepherds get exposed now if I run Shadow Pack and Shadow Pack is too good of a spell not to use so i have to force myself to only using a couple of warbeasts which is ok, I guess. You can certainly win with her right now but she's not uber or anything. As of now I see things like:

EThagrosh, Vayl, Saeryn
PLylyth, Absylonia2.1
ELylyth, PThagrosh
Rhyas

[SteakAndSpirits]

That's one reason I think she should get arcane extension on her bow.

Honestly, I'd be begrudgingly alright with just taking that and calling it a day. It doesn't make my spine tingle with excitement, but it does mean she can hang some spells on the opposition prior to committing her forces.

Still not 'Epic'.

Perhaps there's only so much epic to go around and Thagrosh has it cornered.

That'd be fine, though. Or at least it'd be a really good start.

-s&s

[RoyalAssassin]

Arcane Extension might be enough. I still think her damage output is a little weak, but with high range and her plethora of defensive escape hatches, I'm tentatively willing to sacrifice damage output in the interest of defense.

I'll try it out and see how it looks with just AE added.

[Thunder_God]

eLylyth should get Parasite, simple.

[Garth]

eLylyth should get Parasite, simple.

Ok, then why would you play pLylyth ? Parasite is the only reason I play here.

Yeah eLylyth would be much better with parasite, but then the only difference between pLylyth and eLylyth would be the Feat :-).

[Thunder_God]

Well, to be honest, either of them without Parasite is more or less nothing to write home about, with Parasite, they can kill things.

I mean, Nyss longbows have POW 10, without Parasite, Hellions are your only way to do anything. Parasite actually allows models to do damage. Parasite actually allows the Seraph to kill something with some weight behind it, with some luck.

The real problem with eLylyth is that they took away her true role. Legion, as it stands, has no real infantry caster, eLylyth used to be one, and PP needs to find a way to make her one again, either by re-instating her feat, or giving her pin cushion back (which again, is against one-two models (if you skip it)), but benefits everything that shoots...

The problem is the lack of stopping power. Both Lylyths can mow down soft targets, but that's it. Pin Cushion, Parasite and other things actually allow them to do more. Even if you don't give extra attacks...
How about eLylyth's feat gives an extra die damage on all ranged attack by friendly models (not battlegroup) in her CTRL? Boost perhaps, otherwise you'd get +4d6 from the warbeasts.

Something, anything, to truly benefit units.
Gimme some Strider Elite Cadre too.

eLylyth, to summarize, needs two things:
1. An ability to take down armoured enemies.
2. Something to boost infantry.

Both should hopefully be solved by the same measure.

[Petezilla]

I've found her ability to delete infantry off the board to be pretty powerful although I struggle with her sometimes as she likes to be on the front line. I have brought Typhon with her as he is a heavy hitter but can also benefit from the feat. I'm not convinced she needs more hitting power, she comes across to me as a assination based 'lock who looks for the opportunity to spam a load of pow 12s into the oppoing 'lock. I'm going to try her with the Raek tonight to see how it works out.

[Zerosoul]

I miss eLylyth. She's nothing to write home about, and I have a sneaking suspicion that pLylyth is just a better caster all around. Parasite sees to that. Shadow Pack is amazing, but I have yet to get any good use out of her other spells. I don't think a warlock should be relegated to plinking off infantry, personally. Just give her back her old spell list.

[Thunder_God]

What bothers me about eLylyth, more than lack of efficiency, is the changed role.
From an infantry caster to a beast caster, IMO.

Yes, she retained her "Ranged caster" role, but honestly, ranged or not, in the Legion, if you're going to be a beast caster, you really need to bring something either extra (power creep), or different.

[Bearded Dragon]

looks for the opportunity to spam a load of pow 12s into the oppoing 'lock.

2 (3 during feat turn) is spamming a load of power 12's?

If you are going to do that, then I'd say that Lylyth1 is better for that because you can toss in an auto hitting parasite after the first attack lands.

[blackear]

Listening to Boosted Damage earlier and they mentioned something that I'd not thought of regarding the power level of casters and locks.

Some of the bonuses that might appear to be lacking could come back with the tiers system, so possibly the affinity that she had with Striders. Can't see it sorting the other things out but it's possibly something to look forward.

[Thunder_God]

Factions should still keep a unit balanced, you give away some freedoms for some powers.

A warlock/warcaster should be good, playable, balanced, before you even begin to think of tiers.

[RoyalAssassin]

What bothers me about eLylyth, more than lack of efficiency, is the changed role.
From an infantry caster to a beast caster, IMO.

I would have been okay with a change in role if we'd been hurting for beast casters, but in a roster with Vayl, eThag, and AbsII? We already had two great beast locks, added a third, and we now have no meaningful infantry-supporting lock.

Some of the bonuses that might appear to be lacking could come back with the tiers system, so possibly the affinity that she had with Striders. Can't see it sorting the other things out but it's possibly something to look forward.

I agree with Thunder_God - balance the warlocks/warcasters, then carefully watch tiers for limited freedom vs increased power. Even if tiered lists do come out and save the day (unlikely, but hope springs eternal), we'll be lucky to see ours by this time next year; I'd hate to have to shelf the Shadow of Everblight for that long when we've got an opportunity to keep her from going on the shelf in the first place.

[Petezilla]

2 (3 during feat turn) is spamming a load of power 12's?

If you are going to do that, then I'd say that Lylyth1 is better for that because you can toss in an auto hitting parasite after the first attack lands.

Ok, fair play, I've found that pLylyth struggles to do much to the thing that she puts parasite on though as her fury disappears.
I'm enjoying eLylyth, she seems to be able to constantly ping the enemy caster and the same as Rhyas is a nightmare to deal with when she puts shadowstalk.

[SteakAndSpirits]

While Parasite will clearly assist the Herald of Everblight, she shouldn't be viewed as the sole beneficiary - It improves the ability of her entire army to deal damage, and scales with each multiple attack generated.

Most importantly, it makes otherwise struggling stiders reliably chip away at targets without having to resort to a CRA.

-OR-

As a reduction in target ARM is mostly the equivalent of an increase in POW, allows those striders to perform two man CRAs at effective POW: 15. Etc.

-s&s

[Thunder_God]

Parasite makes the Seraph a viable threat, it's that simple

Aside from the Nyss. I think I said so, way upthread, somewhere, heh.

[Neutralyze]

things i think elylyth need

she needs a bow ability back like before. stop animi or healing on beasts.

next i think she needs shadowbind to replace snare. ( if we cant have a spell why not allow the first shot on bow to be shadow bind for a round (as a special action if it seems to strong))

give her an upkeep spell that allows model unit to have MD with ranged attacks only. if this is too much then model unit gets +1 to ranged attack and damage rolls).

her feat should effect all models with the 2nd attack

these are just some minor suggestions.

[amphoterik]

I just want to say that shadow pack, against the right army, is game altering. I played a retribution buddy of mine the other day and he brought an entire army of shooters. 2 units mage hunters, invictors, nyss hunters, ravyn. I brought typhon, seraph, an angel, striders+UA, and gobbers to keep my support safe. Needless to say, I moved slowly and streamrolled him. At one point I pushed him back into his deployment where I routed him.

elylyth might not be uber, but man does she have her moments.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

In the fluff, she shoots shadow arrows, so why not have her shots ignore bonuses to ARM? That will overcome some of the High ARM problems she faces.

[Neutralyze]

what about spells though. what could replace her pincushion?

[Loveless]

what about spells though. what could replace her pincushion?

I'm a personal fan of Pincushion replacing Pincushion.

[Neutralyze]

seriously though. we have done well so far getting changes we want through actually discussions and feedback.

[Loveless]

I was serious - I just didn't say it in a serious manner

I guess I don't see a problem in replacing Death Sentence with the old Pincushion. Is there some interaction in Mk. II with Mk. I Pincushion that I'm not seeing?

It was an unneeded simplification. It was sort of like Mk. II Death Sentence, so they gave Lylyth2 Death Sentence instead of Pincushion.

The biggest problem I have with this is the range. Giving an 8 RNG spell to Lylyth gets her closer to the enemy than she really should be. Arcane Extension would help, since she's firing spells from Whisper anyway.

Pursuit isn't as fluffy as Snare. Maybe not the best reason to give for replacing something, but hey - that was my reasoning behind changing Goreshade2's Voass, and it was altered in the end

Shadow Bind is a decent replacement for Snare, IMO - that was a good suggestion.

[Warcaster Kirin Folken]

In the fluff, she shoots shadow arrows, so why not have her shots ignore bonuses to ARM? That will overcome some of the High ARM problems she faces.

....Kinda always wondered why she didn't have Arcane Assassin.

Would certainly deal with any issues she has vs Buffed up casters.

[Soulblighter]

what about spells though. what could replace her pincushion?

Calamity seems to be the MK2 version of Pin Cushion.

[Neutralyze]

whats the range on that? isnt it 8? and only for the model or unit?

[OldOneEye]

Just left my second feedback on Lylyth2. Before, I just thought it was her spells that were bad. Now, I think it's a lot more than that. She doesn't have a role; she doesn't do anything well. She doesn't help her army, she doesn't help her warbeasts, and she can't pull her own weight.

We've seen plenty of suggestions to make her an army helper. Getting Pincushion back in place of Death Sentence would do that; letting all models in her control area get an extra attack would, too.

What about making her into a more potent weapon herself, though? The addition of a true offensive spell-- one with a damage component-- would help. I've seen suggestions of Arcane Hunter as well, so that she could ignore most ARM buffs. People want the return of Rapid Shot, though I think it's sadly dead and gone. My suggestion: how about some cumulative damage bonus depending on the number of times she hits in a turn? Something akin to Caine2's Overkill or Amon's Synergy (Bartolo's Blood Quenched is another example of a similar ability). Perhaps even up the ROF on her bow to 3, though I'm not holding my breath.

[Soulblighter]

whats the range on that? isnt it 8? and only for the model or unit?

SPELLS Cost RNG AOE POW UP OFF
Calamity 3 8 – – Yes Yes
Friendly models gain +2 to attack and damage rolls against target enemy model/unit.

Its basically just way better Death Sentence. Makes you wonder why Death Sentence even exists as a spell.