eLylyth

[blitzmonkey]

She SEEMS to be the new pinball caster. With Shadow Stalk and pursuit, she is TOTALLY an assassin caster. The thing that I think is hard for people to swallow is that she is a more selfish caster now. On feat turn, she ALONE has 3 shots at 16 inches. OMG!!! Shadow Stalk 1 or 2 things and just DARE your opponent to move. Then, move up E-Lylyth to go in for the kill next turn. If she can get LOS to their caster, it is game over. 3 shots @ Rat 8......wow.... So let's break down the assassination run with her. Already mentioned the feat and the shadow stalk + pursuit. So from there you get into range. 16 inches remember. So you have 2 shots for free. 1 fury for the 3rd shot. If you are holding still, you are shooting @ Rat 10 and 3D6 damage before boosting. So if you boost all 3 shots on damage, you are getting 3 shots @ rat 10, at range 16, with 4D6........bah.

This whole omg shes not as mobile thing has got to go. She has tons of mobility. She punishes those who don't take into account that if they move, she can move into position.

Sorry....rant over.

This post might have seemed a bit crazy, but its a combination of me freezing from house sitting and my excitement over the new E-Lyly.

[Neutralyze]

3 shots at rat 10 since you have to aim in order to get the additional die.

she is very much so an assassin caster now.

[OldOneEye]

No its not. Look at her other abilities and spells. Its very clear what eLylyth is supposed to be and its very clear that Bullseye goes against the grain. She shouldnt have abilities that force her to forfeit movement when the rest of her abilities and spells all scream for her to "go, go, go!"

eLylyth is supposed to be the ultimate "kiting" caster. She wins by keeping her army mobile, out of melee, and safe from ranged reprisal with stealth. Spells like Calamity and Lock the Target would help her do a much better job of that than Death Sentence and Pursuit.

Bullseye doesn't go against the grain. Maybe her abilities don't scream "go, go, go!" but instead whisper, "Set the trap... lure them close... and strike them hard on the counter-attack." Shadow Pack keeps the enemy from just dealing with Lylyth at range, making them approach to fight her. That's where Pursuit and Evasive come in.

Why is she supposed to be the ultimate kiting caster? If her spells and abilities don't play to that role, then maybe that's not her role.

Exactly. Its hard to get her into position to use it because shes not designed to use the ability. Forfeiting movement goes against her nature. Why does she even need Bullseye? Having Calamity instead of Death Sentence would do much the same thing without her having to forfeit movement. Snap Fire was a much better ability anyway IMO.

I will of course playtest Bullseye but those are my initial thoughts on it.

Again, that presumes that she's supposed to be an aggressive "move forward, strike first" type of warlock. I don't think she is. I think she's another piece in our evolving denial/board control arsenal. The fact is, if you put something within 12-16" of her, you're putting it in significant danger.

[Neutralyze]

i am playtesting her next for sure. her role has changed from what i though it would of been, controlling. now shes an assassin warlock and i dont know what to think of it.

they threw a fast one at us but i must say it is sorta sexy.

[blitzmonkey]

Again, that presumes that she's supposed to be an aggressive "move forward, strike first" type of warlock. I don't think she is. I think she's another piece in our evolving denial/board control arsenal. The fact is, if you put something within 12-16" of her, you're putting it in significant danger.

Exactly......dead on exactly

[Petezilla]

Play her folks!
I'm sad to see the ability to throw out 4 shots a turn while snaking all over the place go but throwing out 3 rat 10, 4 dice pow 12s on the feat turn is probably much more useful.
It also looks like it will be much easier to get death sentence out, now its not such a risk to put it out there it might be easier to appreciate it.

[Ger]

You must note her turn by turn capability to hit something of your enemies hard. Caine may be able to hurt just as much light stuff, but E Lylth has the capability to put some damage on a heavy target as well.

Caine: RaT 8 + Deadeye/Boost. Rng 12 + Snipe. RoF 2. Pow 12 + Boost.
He can hit insane accuracy if you throw focus at it. However at best he is going to be 12 + 3d6. Period.

ELylth: RaT 8 + Boost/Deathsentance + Eyeless sight. Rng 12 + 4" Feat. RoF 2 +1 feat. Pow 12 + Bullseye/Boost.
Pow 12 +4d6 is charging weaponmaster material. So your looking at a warcaster with a very high damage output at a very solid range.

So in the turn by turn on E Lylth you can sac movement and boost damage. One attack with one fury spent. Leaving 4 left. With the rest of her spells being upkeeps how much spellcasting do you expect to make?

Late game stratgy is certainly to keep in mind her assassination potential. However, I see a scary scalpel during all the early turns. That can expect to be able put to damage on anything in range.

[Mezzanine]

You can upkeep spells and run, right? Shadow Pack, run to good spot, wait for Bullseye. Could be really good turn two in 'Hold the middle' style games.

[OldOneEye]

You can upkeep spells and run, right? Shadow Pack, run to good spot, wait for Bullseye. Could be really good turn two in 'Hold the middle' style games.

Yup. You pay the upkeep before any models activate.

[The Nightwalker]

I like her. I still wish we would have gotten pincushion, but Bullseye is almost as good. As far as forfeiting mvmt...I don't feel like it's going to be much of a problem. Just makes raeks paramount with her now. Run, tag, and then slink back. Your turn, fire away. Now if she got Bushwack too, she'd be perrrrfect.

[Bearded Dragon]

The main counter I can see to her would be an enemy has a model that was not affected by pursuit or shadowstalk be the last to activate and run into melee with her. You'd need to deal with that thing before you could use bullseye.

I'll try to give her a go and try to use the tactic of going for the assassination whenever I can to see how it works.

[blitzmonkey]

The main counter I can see to her would be an enemy has a model that was not affected by pursuit or shadowstalk be the last to activate and run into melee with her. You'd need to deal with that thing before you could use bullseye.

I'll try to give her a go and try to use the tactic of going for the assassination whenever I can to see how it works.

Edit: Misunderstood your point. Use a seraph to slipstream! Or use a Raek to Headbutt it!

[Defenstrator]

I think Bullseye is interesting. Since it's an additional damage die you can still boost, so for 3 fury you have 2 eyeless sight RAT 10 POW 12 + 4d6 shots. That's two coloums off a Khador heavy.

[alchahest]

or for five fury you have three of those shots. it's pretty impressive.

[Soulblighter]

Why is she supposed to be the ultimate kiting caster? If her spells and abilities don't play to that role, then maybe that's not her role.

Because thats how she was in MK1. I find it hard to believe that PP would intentionally change her playstyle that fundamentally on purpose. I think they just picked the wrong spells to replace pin cushion and snare. Calamity and Lock the Target are the spiritual successors of those spells. If she wants to keep Bullseye, fine, but at least give her the MK2 version of her old spell list.

[Defenstrator]

or for five fury you have three of those shots. it's pretty impressive.

I suppose, although that means no animi or spells for her, which I'm not sure she can afford. Definately in need of playtesting.

[OldOneEye]

Because thats how she was in MK1. I find it hard to believe that PP would intentionally change her playstyle that fundamentally on purpose. I think they just picked the wrong spells to replace pin cushion and snare. Calamity and Lock the Target are the spiritual successors of those spells. If she wants to keep Bullseye, fine, but at least give her the MK2 version of her old spell list.

They've done it before. The Butcher went from a MKI super-solo with spells like Killing Blow and Retaliation to being a MKII jack-buddy thanks to Full Throttle. The Old Witch can't teleport all over the table now for assassination runs; best as anyone can tell so far, she yo-yos the Scrapjack out and stays in the back. Epic Goreshade had a major shift in playstyle. PP already has changed the playstyle of models, fundamentally and on purpose.

Why is it so hard to believe that they're changing Lylyth's playstyle in light of the other changes to our faction? Wings are gone, and with them go many of the straight assassination lists we used to run. Seraphs as slammers? Gone. Rhyas popcorn? Gone. Take a look at the Strider UA. It serves a completely different purpose now-- Rapid Shot is replaced by Hunter. Just because something used to play a particular way doesn't mean it does-- or should, even-- in MKII.

[mladjanobugarce]

Ifr she can draw line of sight from 18 inches = one dead caster/lock. I like it.

[Soulblighter]

They've done it before. The Butcher went from a MKI super-solo with spells like Killing Blow and Retaliation to being a MKII jack-buddy thanks to Full Throttle.

The Butcher is still a super-solo though. Killing Blow and Retaliation were jank spells that no one ever cast. PP did the Butcher a solid by getting rid of them. Now hes a super-solo with better options.

[blitzmonkey]

The Butcher is still a super-solo though. Killing Blow and Retaliation were jank spells that no one ever cast. PP did the Butcher a solid by getting rid of them. Now hes a super-solo with better options.

So what spells do you have problems with that she has and why?

[Neutralyze]

Ifr she can draw line of sight from 18 inches = one dead caster/lock. I like it.

understand though that she has a contrl range of 10 and a range twelve bow. it is 16 with the feat and+2 with slipstream.

i know 16-18" is far but you better be good at eyeballing it if you are that far away.

i dont see her being all that far away honestly.

[RoyalAssassin]

I just put the new flavor on the field against Menoth.

My list:
eLylyth
Seraph
Angel
Raek
Shredder
Deathstalker x 2
Striders w/UA
Shepherd
Gobbers

My opponent's list:
Severius
Avatar
Redeemer
Zealots w/UA
Exemplar
Vassal
Three guys on big horses (I didn't catch the name)
Some little guy that didn't do anything

Lylyth wins, by virtue of 3 POW12 + 4d6 shots at a little over 14" on the feat turn. I felt a little dirty and wondered if she might be a bit much.

I brought the Seraph and Raek along to nudge her with Slipstream and Shadowstalk, which is exactly what they did. Shadowstalk on the cavalry closed the gap between Lylyth and Severius by 7" on his turn. My opponent's last turn, he ran his Zealots into eLylyth's base. Slip got her out of there and lined up her shot.

It was a fairly easy win, but I'm not sure it's because Lylyth is too strong. A sample size of one isn't good for drawing that broad of a conclusion. She can't really deal with intervening models, so the threat of her 16" feat turn assassination can be mitigated; I just don't think Menoth understood that he needed to do that. Felt a little too safe camping focus to 20 armor.

I should note that I didn't touch her spells at all. I used Shadowstalk, Slipstream, and Bullseye, but stealth was pretty useless against a gunless Menoth army, Pursuit-ing one target was less valuable than Shadowstalking 2 (since I never had a need to move anything in her battlegroup that wasn't her), and Death Sentence with RAT is Fury better spent on shooting again and boosting damage.

Anyone else have some table time with her spell list?

[Soulblighter]

So what spells do you have problems with that she has and why?

Death Sentence. Our ranged models dont have problems hitting. They have problems doing damage because theyre all POW10 or POW12. Death Sentence is superfluous most of the time.

Pursuit. eLylyth basically gets the same effect as Pursuit from the Raek's animus. Why does she need Pursuit when she has the Raek's animus?

Whats the point of having Arcane Archer and Arcane Extension if you dont have a good offensive spell? I mean ill even take Arcane Blast over Pursuit. Just give her something.

[blitzmonkey]

Death Sentence. Our ranged models dont have problems hitting. They have problems doing damage because theyre all POW10 or POW12. Death Sentence is superfluous most of the time.

Seraph needs help....Carni needs help.....The seraph is pow 12 true, but thats 2 to 4 shots hes a lil more accurate on. Same thing with the Carni. 10 inch spray with re-rolls? Gimme gimme gimme. Also, 13 inches on the Death Sentence is amazing. It is situational on using it for the assassination, but it is still there. For everything else, re-rolls are still nice. It sucks when you need 4s and miss.

Pursuit. eLylyth basically gets the same effect as Pursuit from the Raek's animus. Why does she need Pursuit when she has the Raek's animus?

Oh? What's that Seraph? You get to move into position because someone moved? Really Carni? You like having charge lanes opened up? SHE might not NEED it....the rest of her army likes it.

Whats the point of having Arcane Archer and Arcane Extension if you dont have a good offensive spell? I mean ill even take Arcane Blast over Pursuit. Just give her something.

So she can get those offensive up keeps in AND she can support with her animi in her battle group. Shadow Stalk at 15 inches is SEXY. I think you are refusing to see her for what she is.

[mladjanobugarce]

understand though that she has a contrl range of 10 and a range twelve bow. it is 16 with the feat and+2 with slipstream.

i know 16-18" is far but you better be good at eyeballing it if you are that far away.

i dont see her being all that far away honestly.

I used to play other wargames where you can`t measure distances. You can become very good at that quickly. All GW games come with 18 inches long plastic ruler so as I said, I am quite comfortable with that.
But, I see your point.

[alchahest]

as much as I actually like elyl right now, not having a good offensive spell really makes range amplifier is kind of weak - though it does add a bit of utility to animus usage.

[RoyalAssassin]

So she can get those offensive up keeps in AND she can support with her animi in her battle group. Shadow Stalk at 15 inches is SEXY. I think you are refusing to see her for what she is.

I'm starting to she understand what she is, I think, and I'm good with Pursuit. It serves a different purpose than Shadow Stalk, and the combination is brutal.

Lylyth with Pursuit and Shadowstalk creates a very rigged chess match. Shadowstalk re-positions her. Pursuit re-positions her Seraph to open up Slipstream, which in turn repositions Lylyth when the turn passes back to you. Pursuit and Shadowstalk on the same enemy model lets Lylyth virtually swap places with her pet Angel.

And if, at the end of all this dancing, my turn opens with Lylyth facing an unmitigated line of sight to the enemy warcaster, I feat and the game is likely over. It's ugly.

Death Sentence I'm a little dodgier on. I've suffered bad dice, but I don't know that I could ever afford the 2 Fury for it, not when I'm busy spraying Shadow Stalk all over everything and potentially upkeeping Pursuit.

[Mobile]

Privateer has left us an offering in eLylyth.

She is now capable of delivering pinpoint nuclear payloads.

I, for one, am pleased with our new nuclear powered archer chick.

[Loveless]

Alright...she's reminding me of Rhyas in a weird way:
- some beast buffing (Rapport; Shadow Pack)
- bonus attack feat with extra effect
- stealth-ness (Occultation; Shadow Pack)
- bonuses requiring the enemy to miss (Riposte; Evasive)
- no free strikes (Acrobatics; Evasive)
- bonus movement based on kills (Sprint; Swift Hunter)
- ridiculous potential for damage output (Weaponmaster; Bullseye)
- you tend to let the army do the dirty work and Rhyas/Lylyth deliver the killing blow

Differences:
Lylyth wants more beasts than Rhyas - Rhyas additionally wants warriors
Lylyth wants to stay away from the enemy - Rhyas wants to be as close as possible

Alright...she is officially interesting enough to keep me playing her. Not what I wanted necessarily, but this is nice. My only change would be to give her a nice damage spell - really make use of Arcane Extension. Though with the wonderous glory of Bullseye, that may be unwarranted.

[RoyalAssassin]

Alright...she is officially interesting enough to keep me playing her. Not what I wanted necessarily, but this is nice. My only change would be to give her a nice damage spell - really make use of Arcane Extension. Though with the wonderous glory of Bullseye, that may be unwarranted.

Agreed on all counts. I wanted a ranged infantry support caster, but I'm not at all displeased with what I have instead. I can't think of a damage spell they could give her that'd a) be reasonable and b) cause me to shoot it instead of Bullseye'.

[Soulblighter]

Agreed on all counts. I wanted a ranged infantry support caster, but I'm not at all displeased with what I have instead. I can't think of a damage spell they could give her that'd a) be reasonable and b) cause me to shoot it instead of Bullseye'.

I dont understand why having a damage spell is mutually exclusive with bullseye. She can do both. She could fire off a boosted Arcane Blast then fire two shots with Bullseye for example.

[blitzmonkey]

I dont understand why having a damage spell is mutually exclusive with bullseye. She can do both. She could fire off a boosted Arcane Blast then fire two shots with Bullseye for example.

She doesn't need a damage spell. Really.....she doesn't. Even if she did, I doubt I'll use it personally. Her bow attack is just better.

[RoyalAssassin]

I dont understand why having a damage spell is mutually exclusive with bullseye. She can do both.

It's not, not at all. She could certainly have both, and a damage spell would let her move and stick spells without having to put up with holding still for Bullseye. I just think that at 5 Fury, the 2 Fury I'd have to put into the spell would usually be better off spent on 2 boosts for Bullseye damage. I certainly have no objection to her having a damage spell, especially a damage spell with a 10" range - I just think it'd be situationally tasty instead of consistently tasty.

I'm also too paranoid to fire a boosted Arcane blast and 2 boosted arrows - I do everything I can to avoid ever being unable to transfer damage, sometimes to my own detriment. Gameplay problem, not a problem with the idea of giving her a damage spell.

[Loveless]

I dont understand why having a damage spell is mutually exclusive with bullseye. She can do both.

Well...she's only FURY 5, but she has ROF 2 as well.

We need, then, a cheap offensive spell that could best 12+4d6 - that's 1 FURY for the first shot, and 2 FURY for the second shot. Given you'll likely upkeep at least one of her spells and potentially throw out a Shadow Stalk, that's all your fury. OR you'll want to hang onto some fury if it's not your assassination run.

So, we're looking for a 2 FURY spell that can either deal greater than 12+4d6 to a single target (good luck with that one) or can potentially deal with several targets.

HOWEVER, I don't think this version of Lylyth2 is supposed to be taking out masses of models. Her beasts and striders/archers can do that (the boosts to them will likely be in her tier list...I recall PP saying as much for things like Zaal and the Immortals/Ancestral Guardians). Lylyth2, meanwhile, is going to be taking out the most important parts of the enemy army, or opening up lanes (just as important as killing targets, as it enables killing).

So, given that, I'm not sure there is a good damage spell for her.

[Soulblighter]

I'm also too paranoid to fire a boosted Arcane blast and 2 boosted arrows - I do everything I can to avoid ever being unable to transfer damage, sometimes to my own detriment. Gameplay problem, not a problem with the idea of giving her a damage spell.

I just used Arcane Blast as an example. It could be any offensive spell really.

She doesn't need a damage spell. Really.....she doesn't. Even if she did, I doubt I'll use it personally. Her bow attack is just better.

Except a lot of damage spells have secondary effects. Lock the Target for example prevents an enemy model from running or charging or being placed for one round.

[blitzmonkey]

Except a lot of damage spells have secondary effects. Lock the Target for example prevents an enemy model from running or charging or being placed for one round.

So what does she lose for this attack spell you speak of?

Also, it might be a difference of playstyle, but the game seems to be with her that you just set up for her assassination. Have you played her yet? The new version that is?

[Lazlo]

Played the Shadow tonight against a Mordikaar list. Here's what I brought:

eLylyth
+ Rake (her new best friend)
+ Seraph (for more out of activation movement)
+ Angelius (for heavy armor, and another feat shot)
Striders + UA
Deathstalker x2
Raptors x3

It was a slaughter. Used the feat early to take out most of his infantry and put some damage on the beasts. After that it devolved into an exercise in futility for my opponent as he didn't have sufficient ranged to touch me.

I never liked Persuit before, but with a 13" range I was able to get it on his undead swordsmen pretty early on. Affecting model/unit was nice, as I've used Shadow Stalk before on a unit and had my opponent just not move that one guy.

So between Persuit on a unit, the occasional Shadow Stalk going out on the ancestral guardian and gladiator, bushwack with the striders, and light cavalry movement with the Raptors...I've just never played such a mobile army before. Getting bullseye's wasn't difficult with all of the out-of-activation movement I had.

Of course, her spells were rarely used. I cast Shadow Pack on turn one, but after any ranged threat was gone (on my 2nd turn, the feat turn), except for a drake, I had no reason to upkeep it. I cast Persuit on a unit early and upkeep that. But I never cast Death Sentence. Never really needed it.

I didn't really miss not having an attack spell, though. Whisper was easily up to the task of taking out the void spirit on her feat turn,. And I'd rather be shooting than casting anyway.

I was amazed at what a difference Arcane Extension made to her. Pursuit was much more useful. 15" Shadow Stalks was in-freaking-sane.

Bullseye or Snap Fire, either one is ok I guess. One makes her able to hurt heavy armor easier (did decent damage against the gladiator), the other makes her better at taking out infantry. Either is fine with me, as I'll add models to shore up her weakness.

Overall judgement: I like my favorite warlock again. I had a lot of fun playing her. However, a serious downside of this playstyle was that my opponent definately did NOT have fun, and that kind of sucks.

[Loveless]

However, a serious downside of this playstyle was that my opponent definately did NOT have fun, and that kind of sucks.

That's no good. However, Mordikaar changed quite a bit - it could be that your opponent hasn't adjusted yet.

What did he bring?

[Soulblighter]

Also, it might be a difference of playstyle, but the game seems to be with her that you just set up for her assassination. Have you played her yet? The new version that is?

Not yet. Gonna try her out in a game tonight. I understand her dynamic has changed to assassination. I think I preferred her when she was a control caster though. MK2 Lylyth doesnt look nearly as much fun as MK1 Lylyth.

[Lazlo]

That's no good. However, Mordikaar changed quite a bit - it could be that your opponent hasn't adjusted yet.

What did he bring?

It was a bad army against mine, with praetorian karax (that died to snipers from deathstalkers and poison arrows), swordsmen, a void spirit, some beast handlers, a gladiator, brute, drake, and an ancestral guardian. Could definately be his unfamiliarity with his warlock, and he definately did not have a good match-up against my army.

He said he didn't have a problem with what Lylyth could do, it was just the Raek that gave him fits. Or more specifically, Shadow Stalk (wow, never thought I'd hear someone say that before Mk II). The combination of Cost 1, not an attack so no roll to hit, and Lylyth able to cast it on multiple enemy models really seemed too much to him.

Edit\: Oh, and the 15" range.