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  1. #41
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    I wish they change gallows like they did energizer. Make it cost 2 and just move 2" period

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal View Post
    The gallows randomness ruins the assassination potential. If you set up for minimal amount, that's +2" from double gallows, same as Sorscha gives to winter guard. If you set up for longer you're in the potential lose play zone.

    I would try gallows as last ditch assassination attempt, but never as main plan.
    OK. Because I was interested )and my boss ins't in to give feedback on latest project) lets assume for a moment that the warnoun STARTS 25 inches from E1 and that you have the angle and opening to get Scrappy to where she. For laughs and chuckles, I want to look at a Def 15 caster. Adjust as need be for others.

    I am bringing OW, E1, and then something(s) that will kill a war noun who has been stripped of focus. The 2 likely categories here are Nyss+val or WGIRC. There are other possibilities.


    No allocation and OW has 7. So 2 upkeeps out (one for free with Great Power and one for Silly Elf).
    Step 1. Silly elf gives OW Arcane Secrets (100% chance)
    Step 2. Scrappy runs (100% chance).
    Step 3. OW casts unboosted Gallows (see http://privateerpressforums.com/show...s-amp-Portents) for the charts. 68% chance to land it. If fail, cast Unseen path to bring Scrappy back to Safety.
    Step 4. Roll Distance pulled. This is a little confusing to write up but I created a probability tree to figure it out.
    <Note - if you roll a 3 or higher for distance pulled you are probably "all in").
    Step 5. Roll for boosted Gallows. With 3D6 an 8 is 83% (http://www.talkstats.com/showthread....-(2d6-3d6-4d6)

    When you calculate all of the above and make a probability chart you have a 42% of landing BOTH gallows and pulling the warnoun a combined 6 inches on two gallows. We would then want to work through the probabilities of having the CRAs do what they had to do to kill the warnoun stripped of focus. I feel pretty decent about this as we are starting with Joe a minimum of effective RAT 9 and going up. But Dice......

    (If you would like to duplicate the work to see if you get a different answer you start by creating a "tree" that shows the possible outcomes of our steps. So the first one is the 68% chance of hitting with our S&P boosted Gallows and then create, on the "I hit side) 6 branches to represent the different distances from 1 to 6 which you pulled the warnoun. Then proceed from there to represent the probability of hitting (83%) and then the probabilities for the various distance dragged...So for example there is a .68 probability of hitting him * 1/6 for a 1 inch pull * .83 for landing the second one and then a 1/3 chance of rolling the 5 or 6 to bring the target into the danger zone))


    PS. One addendum. Lowering our oods a bit is actually OVERROLLING on the gallows. The key result, I think, would be a 2-6; 3-5 or 4-4+ where the first number represents the distance you pull the target toward Scrappy on the first gallow and the second number the distance rolled on the second.) You do not wish to put the warnoun into combat with Scrappy because they the def for the e1 shot goes up to 19. The flip side is that if you roll a 5 and especially a 6 (.68 times 1/3) on our FIRST gallows you may not need the second. That would allow you, for example, to BOOST the damage (under S&P) on the gallows damage roll since the pull comes on "hit" rather than after rolling damage.

    The moral of all this? OW loves Sylss (duh) but also loves E1 and things that can make a caster dead if their focus and fury get stripped (such as Behemoth). Also unless you are feeling good about things - there is nothing wrong with trying a 40% plus assassination attempt if you opponent fails to appreciate gallows.

    PPS. and of course there is a 18.5 inch assassination vector always on the table with Scrappy running and then OW unseen pathing while upkeeping Avatar of Slaugher on herself given appariation. The interesting math there is whether POW 15; Mat 8 with 2 initials and 7 focus is enough to kill enough stuff that is out there. Definately against a lot but some things would survive..
    Last edited by Sand20go; 01-10-2017 at 11:08 AM.

  3. #43

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    The gallows + unseen path combo would be more effective in potentially catching an enemy model such as a key solo or moving a jack/beast far enough to allow your army to engage with guns/melee. As for assassination, I actually like having the hail mary option available. Some Khador lists can be built with pretty much zero assassination play (Hark + melee jacks comes to mind) so it's nice to have a non-linear (somewhat) assassination in the bank.

  4. #44
    Destroyer of Worlds Wendan's Avatar
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    The gallows pull came up in two scenarios in my game on Saturday. In the first, I gallows'd a couple of troopers closer to try and get souls for next turn. I didn't pull them far enough, but I haven't done that before and it seemed like a good idea (OW was relatively safe)

    The second use was a consideration of pulling Vlad2 closer for the assassination. If I had like 7 extra focus I would have absolutely done it, but I had 7 souls and would have had to have done it on the next turn. Didn't quite make it that far, but if you've got her loaded on souls it's an option!
    Quote Originally Posted by Frey
    Moose don't get angry, they get even
    It is important to note that I am just awful at this game. Seriously, watching me play is like watching Keanu Reeves perform Hamlet. It's funny at first, but then starts to get quietly sad, until you just want to leave the room.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenbay924 View Post
    The gallows + unseen path combo would be more effective in potentially catching an enemy model such as a key solo or moving a jack/beast far enough to allow your army to engage with guns/melee. As for assassination, I actually like having the hail mary option available. Some Khador lists can be built with pretty much zero assassination play (Hark + melee jacks comes to mind) so it's nice to have a non-linear (somewhat) assassination in the bank.
    In case I wasn't clear it is a DOUBLE GALLOWS to move the warnoun into E1 bolt range. As noted above, against something like, for example, Una2 it can get her close enough, if she starts 25 inches from E1. 42% of the time (and thus bolted, 59% of the time once there. (so about 24% chance of stripping the target).

  6. #46

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    Theory and practice with Old Witch are very different things.

    Play a game with her using this strategy and get back to us.
    Battles wut I had
    Newest report (02/09/17): Zerkova1 vs Sturgis2

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal View Post
    The gallows randomness ruins the assassination potential. If you set up for minimal amount, that's +2" from double gallows, same as Sorscha gives to winter guard. If you set up for longer you're in the potential lose play zone.

    I would try gallows as last ditch assassination attempt, but never as main plan.
    Try not using it as an assassination plan, but rather an attrition plan. You are locking down toops with her feat and killing them off and then using gallows to pull up a heavy and take it down. If you build you list with this tactic in mind, you can almost always pull it off.

  8. #48
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    The other thing that people arent talking about is Murder of Crows. That spell has brutal control elements.

    The OW has so much to offer and so much versatility, but you have to use it all to make her a monster.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisBatson View Post
    The other thing that people arent talking about is Murder of Crows. That spell has brutal control elements.

    The OW has so much to offer and so much versatility, but you have to use it all to make her a monster.
    I use it first turn then maybe upkeep it if still looks useful

  10. #50

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    Murder is generally accepted as a decent spell. Which I suppose is why its not talked about. I find myself using it more now with Power Up lessened the burden on OW

    I did used to like putting it on a unit of Gun Mages in the feat so they had to risk dying after shooting or run directky away to get out of the feat and murder template.
    Battles wut I had
    Newest report (02/09/17): Zerkova1 vs Sturgis2

  11. #51

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    Avatar giving plus to hit and damage opens another cheeky assination venue with her. Simply running scrap jack and teleporting old witch to the target. Mat 8 2x pow 15 with 5 focus can kill warcasters. I like playing the prowl models with her, as you can set up the cloud after a prowl model goes to grant stealth and block Los to things like behemoth. Her feat is very good, she suffers from some tax like Greylock ternions, so she always walks around stealthed. But overall positioning is very important when playing old witch and can be frustrating as she is less forgiving then others.

  12. #52

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    Having always loved her fluff as one of the strongest entities in the Iron Kingdoms, I've recently started to play the OW hoping for a challenge. And heck I got it.

    The basic problem I recognized after a couple of battles is there is literally no one on the table who would care about her feat. The heavies make up a half of the table while the other half takes support - who is way back and unaffected - and ranged infantry, who stays where they were, aims and continues to shoot as normal. Only light jacks/beasts and melee single would infantry should be concerned about it.
    You'd like to feat early to halt as much advance as possible, but it doesn't really make sense, because by then you'd be probably in charge range of enemy heavies.

    And hell, why can't Khador have at least FOC 8 caster?

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosKamilos View Post
    Having always loved her fluff as one of the strongest entities in the Iron Kingdoms, I've recently started to play the OW hoping for a challenge. And heck I got it.

    The basic problem I recognized after a couple of battles is there is literally no one on the table who would care about her feat. The heavies make up a half of the table while the other half takes support - who is way back and unaffected - and ranged infantry, who stays where they were, aims and continues to shoot as normal. Only light jacks/beasts and melee single would infantry should be concerned about it.
    You'd like to feat early to halt as much advance as possible, but it doesn't really make sense, because by then you'd be probably in charge range of enemy heavies.
    Then you may be playing her into the wrong list. She works great for me in stopping an army. But dropping her into a jack heavy with shooting support list will definately affect her ability to get the job done. But all casters have a bad match up problem.

  14. #54
    Eater of Brains Esper's Avatar
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    Everytime I see people posting that no one cares about her feat, I wonder if no one else plays against people using cavalry? Even Arcane Shielded Stormlances care about POW 14 and knockdown.

    Players may think they don't care, but I've ripped entire aspects off of beasts before. Not everything is ARM 20 in the game, and dice spikes do happen.
    Last edited by Esper; 01-16-2017 at 07:14 AM.

  15. #55

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    Loads of stuff cares about her feat, just not heavies. And theres a lot of heavies about these days.

    Also, yeah, you can get lucky dice spikes but discussion on this forum tends to prefer everything be valued by uts average roll, not its highest possible result.
    Battles wut I had
    Newest report (02/09/17): Zerkova1 vs Sturgis2

  16. #56

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    I just wish her feat either knocked down every enemy in her control area or just dealt a POW 14 to every enemy model in her control area. Her feat is dependent on too many variables.
    When strangers meet, great allowances should be made for differences of custom and training. -Heretics of Dune, Frank Herbert

  17. #57

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    Had a game with her two days ago. Forgot I was playing Warmachine and forgot to make a plan to win.

    Anyway, I was against Thyron. Went for the assassination. He spanked all his focus on trying to kill Behemoth. My luck was awful and Discordia survived a Behemoth charge by 3 boxes, then was repaired to seven then he survived 3 rocketeers, Eyriss1 Brutal Damage with one box then Scrapjack missed twice and a last ditch kodiak cloud couldn't get to him. I still had my Greylords and tried to find a way to spray him but couldn't because a Banshee was in just the right placd to be annoying and I just realised that I forgot that they can spray while engaged so go me.

    Anyway, my point was that Thyron was under Storm Rager and Doscordia's Imprint which put him at ARM 20 and after everything OW took him down to one box (I will note that I rerolled a 6 at one point because it was touching terrain and I offered to call it cocked which my opponent agreed to. Reroll was a 4.

    I'm pretty okay with that even though she was just short it wasn't really her fault, nor do I feel it was mine because it was a perfect storm of bad luck and I still nearly killed him.

    I think people dissing her assassination game need to give it a whirl really.
    Last edited by HereComesTomorrow; 01-23-2017 at 04:46 AM.
    Battles wut I had
    Newest report (02/09/17): Zerkova1 vs Sturgis2

  18. #58
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    Dear wise Old Witch of Tomorrow

    Are you considering her with the theme for the AD, or are things like Behemoth and Eyriss1 too important for her?

    I am not sure, because I want to run er with WGRC anyway and don't have a good target for Iron Flesh, so why not WGI?

    Thats about 48 Points, rest would be widomakers / Jacks with Destroyer and Juggers/Kodiaks.

  19. #59

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    Nope. The theme closes of Sylys, Eyriss, Greylords and Behemoth to her and I think they're all models that work very, very well with her. I'm hesitant to say staples because everyone plays her differently. Though Eyriss isn't really a staple but she makes life easier.
    Battles wut I had
    Newest report (02/09/17): Zerkova1 vs Sturgis2

  20. #60

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    So I have played a couple games in Theme with OW so far and really, really like her. Granted she still won't be very competitive for the most part in my meta, but fun to play. My first attempt had a single Gun Carriage, and WGRC w/2 Rockets with a mortar and a field gun. I liked it and it did give me a win over Butcher 1. Kodiaks are fantastic for positioning clouds for OW and for blocking LOS. I did luck out and have a rolling fog template on the table that I was able to use that really helped block my army from shooting. In the end I was able to hit Butcher with a Field gun and put 2 rockets, the snipers, and the gun carriage into him to finish him off. I would have been able to follow those up with running Scrapjack and OW with Avatar on her, but alas those dice were hot on the guns.

    After talking it through with my friend (the Butcher player) I decided to switch out the WG for a second Gun Carriage and mechs. The RC did much of nothing throughout the game other then some rocket shots. The extra control from the rough terrain AOE's just feel like they will be a better option. Then going with double mortars (though may switch back to a field gun). I will be testing it out this week. It's more for a champion format list and I think it has decent game into Una2 in that format. High Explosive blasts, Vent Steam, Gun Carriage AOE's, Murder of Crows, and feat seem to work fairly decent to pile on the damage.

    The Old Witch of Khador - WJ: +18
    - Scrapjack
    - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
    - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
    - Juggernaut - PC: 12


    Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 18
    Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 18

    Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
    Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 4

    Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8
    Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
    Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
    Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3

  21. #61

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    New battle report in my thread.
    Battles wut I had
    Newest report (02/09/17): Zerkova1 vs Sturgis2

  22. #62
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    Going to be getting in two games today with this list:

    Old Witch
    - Scrapjack
    - Sylas
    - Behemoth
    - Kodiak
    - Marauder
    Croe's Cutthroats
    - Valachev
    Greylord Ternion
    Great Bears
    Kell Balioch

    I'll report back tomorrow with results.

  23. #63
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    Short question. When I am building a list with a list with old which I want to include a melee unit, or a unit that works well with iron flesh and I was thinking of kazasy assassins. Any opinions. Do they work with the witch?

  24. #64

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    I tried Kayazy for a while. Didn't like them, the vame always either ended before they were useful or they were a minor road bump and fluffed their charge attacks.

    If I were to use a melee unit I'd go with IFPBDs. The feat buys them time to get into position it stack shield wall and minifeat and Iron Flesh just makes them even harder to shift while P&S 13 can actually damage do some damage to jacks with CMA etc

    Incidentally, took OW to a tournament at the weekend but match ups (Ret with Ossyan gunline or Vyros2 Griffon spam and Khador jack spam with Karchev amd B3) were bad and I only got to use her once against my regular opponent, which was a win.
    Last edited by HereComesTomorrow; 01-30-2017 at 11:19 AM.
    Battles wut I had
    Newest report (02/09/17): Zerkova1 vs Sturgis2

  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereComesTomorrow View Post
    I tried Kayazy for a while. Didn't like them, the vame always either ended before they were useful or they were a minor road bump and fluffed their charge attacks.

    If I were to use a melee unit I'd go with IFPBDs. The feat buys them time to get into position it stack shield wall and minifeat and Iron Flesh just makes them even harder to shift while P&S 13 can actually damage do some damage to jacks with CMA etc

    Incidentally, took OW to a tournament at the weekend but match ups (Ret with Ossyan gunline or Vyros2 Griffon spam and Khador jack spam with Karchev amd B3) were bad and I only got to use her once against my regular opponent, which was a win.
    Thats actually the main problem I see with her atm. I really like her and would love to play Strakov and her in the ADR, but with all the Armor going around it doesn't really work well.

    Well going to try the Kayazy and show you how its done After that come the BD^^

    I like the idea of a cloudwall with them.

  26. #66
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    I'm still a new player and learning (No tournaments but working towards it) but I can gladly say I managed my first Old Witch assassination last night against my friend. I made some big mistakes (took iron flesh off my shockies and didn't feat, ended up with them being slaughtered by idrians) so I basically needed the assassination to go off to win and thankfully it worked out.

    Thanks to everyone with pointers and ideas about running her.

  27. #67

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    I ran Old Witch and Kozlov at a Champions tournament two weekends ago and came out pretty well. My list for OW was as below:

    Old Witch (in Winter Guard Kommand)
    - Scrapjack
    - Kodiak
    - Juggernaut x 2
    - Destroyer
    - Decimator
    Max WGRC with 3 rockets
    Kovnik Joe
    Free WG Field Gun

    In general I feel like Old Witch is really good in the current Champions rotation. Your normal nemeses, Retribution and Cygnar, don't have access to their normal True Sight casters, which means that your clouds can really affect the game in a meaningful way. That leaves only extremely jack/beast heavy builds, beast-heavy Legion, and Tristan2 as things that can potentially get in her way. Plus Old Witch is pretty good into Una2 and can make a run of assassinating any of her likely pairs.

    I think the Ret matchup becoming much more viable is the big one here- my local meta loves Issyria and Kaelyssa, neither of which make the Witch happy, which sucks as they're generally one of the few troop-happy factions. But without mass True Sight you get all of the Infantry eating bonuses without any of the downsides.

    But even in bad match ups the Winter Guard Kommand theme force gives her an out by granting her ranged assassination immunity. So even if they have a couple of things that can see through the cloud you can easily put a few Winter Guard within sac pawn range to save the day.

    Game 1 was against a Protectorate player who dropped Malekus into me on Recon. There was an obstruction in the middle of the board, so most of the game was putting Murder of Crows and Kodiak clouds on either side and huddling in the middle. With Sac Pawn from the theme I didn't really care about his sprays or shooting against Old Witch. He was a relatively new player, so he didn't advance into my feat and I was able to get to 5 scenario points fairly quickly. The beatback gun helped clear the zone for my second domination.

    I dropped Kozlov into game two against Zaadesh2- I should have won this on scenario if I was thinking straight, but Zaadesh's feat really ate up my clock and I had to make some bad decisions at the end.

    Round 3 was Old Witch into Retribution, in which he dropped Elara2 with Hyperion and double sentinels. I got to live the dream twice in this game, having Old Witch eat through a full unit of Sentinels on two consecutive turns, then teleport back to safety (there were a lot of obstructions on this particular map). The colossal went down to fully loaded Kodiak and Juggernaut plus rocket and Destroyer fire. The feat really screws over Ret's infantry game, and either Scrappy or the Witch herself eats through them afterwards.

    Game 4 Kozlov faced off against the bunny farm and won because a lucky Fury'ed Uhlan one shot Ossrum with triple 6s on the damage roll :P

    I also played a game into Morghoul2 post-Skorne errata in Recon. He was running a few units of infantry, so between feating top of 1 and the Decimator's beatback gun I was able to clear the zone and get up on control points early. The top of 1 feat mostly allowed me to get my jacks and Rifle Corps in position to easily take out their targets on turns 2 and 3, which meant it was before Morghoul's feat.

    I ended up losing at 4 control points because Eyeless-sighted Incorporeal Molik Karn is a thing now, but if I'd been able to block my landing zone a bit better it would have been a pretty dominating victory.

    I'm planning on running OW and Kozlov at an upcoming Masters event as well, and once again I'll be running her in theme. Sideboard really helps turn her into a Circle killer no matter what list they drop, but I still need to do some more testing there to see exactly what the lists will look like.

  28. #68

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    Last night I had the privilege to play against Cryx’s Ghost Fleet with my current Old Witch list:

    WGK
    Ol’ Witch

    • Scrappie
    • Kodiak
    • Juggy x 2
    • Decimator
    • Destroyer

    WGRC + 3 rockets
    Kovnik Joe
    WG Mortar Crew (free)

    The Ghost Fleet consisted of:
    Deneghra1

    • Nightmare
    • Two arc nodes

    Cpt. Rengrave
    Blackbane’s Ghost Raiders
    Max Revenant Crew with three rifles
    2 x Min Revenant Crew with three rifles each
    2 x Pistol Wraith
    2 x Machine Wraith

    The changes to the theme haven’t really changed my opinion of it alongside Old Witch- I might end up dropping another jack to get some more bullet sponges (re: Winter Guard Infantry), but I feel like having Sac Pawns available for her is very important to keeping her relevant in the current meta.

    The downside, though, is the sheer lack of magical weapons. I have Armory as my objective to help with this, but in the scenario we were playing (The Pit) I had the Witch’s claws, the Murder of Crows… and that’s about it. Even her feat isn’t magical damage anymore, which was a shock to me.

    Anyway. He wins the roll thanks to his +1 and goes first, and I choose the lazy side of the board with a forest and a wall. Turn one he runs up, my turn one I decide to feat to keep his Revenant Crew out of the zone.

    Turn two he floods the zone with ghost pirates and pistol wraiths and positions them such that Old Witch can’t berserk/overtake through them all. Scrappy unfortunately doesn’t have magical feet, so he’s unable to do any serious tap dancing. His caster (Denegrah1) ran to the flag with full camp.

    I spent a while thinking through my turn. I could certainly run Scrapjack to his caster and port in the Witch, but MAT 8 and POW 15s against a full camp 16/14 caster isn’t great odds. And she’s stealth, so I can’t even have my Rifle Corps chip in a few points of damage either. So I end up trying to clear out my flag, camp Old Witch on it… and proceed to get shot to death after getting knocked down, parasite’d, feated on, and shot with Ghost Shot rifles.

    I’ve been thinking through the matchup since then, and I think I there is some hope to the matchup after all. I just need to be smarter about it. The game plan really depends on the scenario, but in general one thing I learned is that the rifles can’t see through stealth, so take advantage of that prowl where you get it!

    In general I think you need to go second if possible- feating on bottom of two is almost necessary to keep the zombie pirates out of contest range while cleaning up any that made it in.


    • Entrenched: we have an objective, so I can park a Destroyer near by and have more magical weapons. Plan is to hold a zone, preferably the enemy’s, and just hold on for two points if possible. Going second and feating bottom of two while clearing out the zone is paramount, as I can get to four control points fairly easily. If anyone tries to come into the zone some combination of Old Witch, Rifle Corps and jacks can knock them back out.
    • Line Breaker: nobody actually plays this scenario so I think I’m good :P
    • Take and Hold: try to go second and take the enemy’s flag? Having a cloud of birds on me helps with getting eaten by pirates, but this is a slow scenario and I really don’t favor my chances.
    • The Pit: camp hard on the friendly flag and contest the zone and their flag with jacks. Old Witch should be able to kill any ghost pirates that try to contest, and stealth and magical murdering bird clouds help her stay alive. This is not a great scenario, as you’ll likely need to hold a flag for five turns in order to win and time is not on your side.
    • Extraction: have an objective, so more magical weapons! This one is a little more difficult as the flags are pretty far up the board and it’s hard to prevent contesting both of them. If you can get two on feat turn it’s doable, but I’ll need some actual experience for this one.
    • Incursion: like Extraction, but harder. Again, you’ll contest all day, but parasite + feat + gang does not make your jacks happy.
    • Outlast: I don’t have a good answer here. You can play “where’s the witch?” and teleport to the zone with fewer incorporeal dudes, but in general it doesn’t look good.
    • Recon: Witch’s favorite scenario. Go for three on feat turn, then teleport to a flag of your choice for the end game.


    So… Entrenched, Line Breaker, The Pit, Recon, and Extraction seem doable, the others not so much. If it’s a Master’s game, then having specialists helps as you can plug in a Spriggan to help with possible assassination opportunities- remember you can just run Scrapjack right through incorporeal models!

    Curious what other folks’ thoughts are on OW vs Ghost Fleet. Going non-theme certainly helps (Aiyanna, Holt, and Valachev make it pretty winnable all on their own), but I worry about her non-Cryx matchups at that point due to no Sac Pawn. Needs testing.

  29. #69

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    Also... when did Unseen Path change to prevent any and all advances after teleporting? Apparently I cheated during my tournament as I thought you could still teleport and then do berserk+overtake shenanigans (sorry Ethan!).

    Guess it mostly means that I'll be keeping Avatar of Slaughter on Scrappy instead of the Witch from now on

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