Venators

[Blasterbonatti]

I own a full unit of these dudes, still boxed but I just can't seem to find a use for them when list building. As far as I can tell no warlock does anything for them aside from both Makedas making them a bit more survivable (although I'd much rather be casting "defenders ward" on other things. and squeezing ten venators into the foxhole AOE does not make for good CRA's!)

So basically what i'm asking is, are they ever worth it? What can we do to make them worth their 9pts? I find it hard to want them over 10 swordsmen + UA, with a point left over!

[Draekon Darkstorm]

Don't you mean 6/10 points for a unit. They are a complete waste of points currently for the amount of ability/skills the bring to the table.

Let me clarify. Compared to Invictors (same cost), Houseguard Rifleman (cheaper), Trenchers (same cost), Venators lack anything worthwhile.

Draekon

[Tionas]

They need a points drop (5/8) or a bump in what they can do. currently all they can do is stand there and suck.

However, they were petty lackluster in mark I untill the advent of the Extoller, and then they rocketed to the top. I feel its going to be the same in Mark II.

[lord tyrant watt]

an idea that i had was giving them a combined ranged *attack spray.

Basically, 2 or more Venators could combined ranged attack with a spray instead of their regular CRA.

It can still be called needle burst or burst fire for fluff.

This would help them move the bogged down skorne, because you no longer have the penalty for in melee.

Just an idea.

[Blasterbonatti]

6/10? Holy crap I thought they were 9. That compounds problems further. If the extoller could affect units then yeah that'd be great, with the extoller ghost sighting the CRA they're ok I guess, but not 12pts worth!

Long gunners are the same price I think and have better rng, same POW (mostly), shoot twice and still have CRA. Along with Cygnar's numerous ranged attack buffs. Don't PP see something wrong with this? I know it's unfair to compare hordes to WM but still! Mental. Come on PP save the venators!

5/8 for a unit would be good, as would the spray option. I could see a lot of use for them with Xerxis if they had sprays. Either that or a totally kick-*** UA. Sprays, built in ranked attack and CRA into melee might make me want them.

[Creaux]

As a whiner for Cygnar, as well, it's only fair for me to point out that the trenchers ARE 7/11, and even then, the trenchers bring a lot to the table for that 1 point. /cygnar comparison.

A spray CRA would be a little tough and maybe slightly awkward. If a spray was going 4" past a corner, with the target clearly in everyone's sight up in front but other models blocked by the corner, would the CRA bonuses apply to everyone?

I like the base venator shot; it is good and effective enough. The +1/+2 never felt AWESOME, never raising as much as average armor values for those base sizes, but it was special and neat. I stretched to take them when I did at 70 points; 6 points is just an even bigger stretch. They lost a lot of what made them work for the Skorne at 70 points, even if we set the extoller aside--Death March no longer makes them a self-contained countercharge. The ancestral guardian doesn't offer swift death to anything messing with them; he can engage some guys, or kill half a unit of light infantry. He can also try and cut up a bigger target, hoping for a decent result.

Now the venators have picked up a trick--ranked attack on the praetorians + UA. I haven't tried this out yet, and I never picked up karax, so I don't know how good this is. I will say that the praetorians are really cheap, and I don't feel like they are paying for the rank attack; maybe we have an irritating point-cost system, and the venators with praets+UA will work out. I'd love to hear experiences on this front!

In terms of changes I'd want to see...I can't really think of anything that makes sense. I don't think venators should be an incredible elite shooting unit. The Skorne, frankly, should not have stumbled upon an OMG!!! effective gun system. It doesn't feel right in the storyline for the humans to look at their rifles and wish they had reivers. Reivers might have a cool trick or two, but nothing about the Skorne says that they should have incredible gunsmithing. Same deal with venators being skilled marksmen and trick shots. I like them being a decent ranged unit. I just don't know why they should be at an elite ranged cost, particularly when our other shooting options (drake, cannoneer, catapult) aren't particularly expensive for what they do.

Hell, here's an idea--While it goes a bit against MK. II philosophy, give the venators an order where they can sacrifice movement to shoot, and then preform the old praetorian UA special order to attack enemies when they get engaged. This would end up being a RAT 5, MAT 5 attack, neither at fantastic POW, but it would let the venators take care of themselves better, and would really show the Skorne spirit of wanting to use the sword whenever possible. It isn't a fantastic rule, and I think I'd still find them expensive at 6/10 with it, but it would CERTAINLY make me start thinking about how to use them.

--edit-- That or assault, although assault doesn't feel as "venatory." The praetorians are the ones who get to lead the charge and all, and then they can't even CRA to get a decent attack score. While their weapons are clumsy enough that assault seems mildly improbable, it would, again, make them a useful unit.

--2nd edit-- Can I get a show of support for venators, just in general/conceptually? I LOVE their coats-of-plate; favorite infantry armor in the Skorne empire. The reiver is a really cool weapon, and I can only think of somewhat vague parallels in sci-fi environments. I also love the fact that they are second-stringers, torn between fighting to earn honor for their new combat style and practicing their hoskune-approved sword drills whenever they can find a moment. The higher MAT as well as RAT on the older sergeant was soo funny to me! These guys are sooo cool, that I really want them on my battlefield!

[DarkWonderer]

I would just make them cheaper (5/8 or 5/9). If that isn't enoigh. I would put all those ranked attack units to good use and give Venators a rule allowing them to ignore "in meele" penelty and not hiting frienly models on a miss. Somthing like Black Penny. Overpowered ? No way. Useful? Quite a lot.

[dethmastersnich]

I definately would make them cheaper, considering they are our only ranged unit option besides Acuarii. It seems like we are paying a ranged attack tax or something.

[Creaux]

But again, while arcuarii and venators are pricey, drakes and cannoneers are well-priced for their guns. Maybe it's a guns'n'souls tax...?

[Winters_night]

I really feel they would work well at 5/8, 6/10 is just absurd considering what they do now

[Pickles]

I would just make them cheaper (5/8 or 5/9). If that isn't enoigh. I would put all those ranked attack units to good use and give Venators a rule allowing them to ignore "in meele" penelty and not hiting frienly models on a miss. Somthing like Black Penny. Overpowered ? No way. Useful? Quite a lot.

Cheaper is all they need IMO. I do not feel that every unit needs a raft of special rules to make it special - solid stats well priced are fine.

[droffset]

(This is without playing any games with ventators, so...)

They'd need to be cheaper at the very least to take them.

Souls don't offer enough utility in general to warrant a tax. But the card language does seem to set up furure model releases. But that doesn't help the existing models.

If the Venators got a UA where the mini-feat turned each venator's attack into sprays for one turn that would be awesome.

Fluff wise the Skorne are practical people and they've come to recognize the utility of ranged weapons. While the general population of the empire might be slow to accept them what matters is what the Generals think.

I'm looking for a venator immortal unit, or venator AG with massive range power.

[Razhem]

I simply haven't been able to justify the cost to myself, the same way I have been incapable with a bronzeback. I'd lower them to 5-8 and call it a day, at least they would then cost as much as other ranged units, bucause it's absurd how they cost 2 more points than full houseguard yet the houseguard have ranked attack and better range compared to splinters. If they costed the same, both would have their perks.

[Tionas]

I think that sprays for the venetors are dumb. I also, however, would love to see some sort of spray unit. cause its fun.

[Deathraven]

In my mind there are 3 problems with venators and only one is likely to be fixed before we get our book.
1) They cost too much
2) They need a ua so they can gain some abilities
3) Our army no longer supports them (see extoller and drake)

[Blasterbonatti]

I just want a reason to build and paint them and currently it's looking like that might never happen. I'd prefer a drop in pts cost over more rules but since privateer seem so keen on keeping them pricey (if I recall they weren't cheap in mk1) then give them something!

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

I've tested the Venators quite extensively (love the models) and found that they rarely earn back their points, even when the opponent presents them with choice targets through mistakes and they get a good position.

In Mk1 I thought they payed the melee/ranged mix tax (they could, after all, occasionally kill something in melee) and that was why they were priced as they were. They certainly weren't worth it, unless you needed some variation from the eMorghul/Karn/Extoller assasination run and thought Blind, Ghost Sight and Venators was fun.

I have no idea why they kept that cost in Mk2...they are now (rightly, in my opinion) less capable of hitting things in melee than the Swordsmen and their ranged attack is still kind of lacklustre. 5/8 would be decent enough, I guess - they'd still not get fielded much, but perhaps a return of Skorne debuffing for ranged effect might see them back on the table.

[Helion]

I never liked the Extoller/Venator Combo, so I have literally NO practical experience fielding them. However, I don't think that they are worth their 6/10 pts. At that cost, you have to have a payoff ability that allows them to sustain themselves. I like Creaux's idea with the ready stance option. That would make their cost pretty reasonable in my opinion. I've also always thought that their weapons should be much shorter range, but higher power. Something inbetween 10 and 14 with the needle burst bumping them up to no more than 16. So, maybe 13 base power with a range of 8"?

[Zcynthr]

My solution?

5/8 cost, and give them War Tempered, from the Ret's Houseguard Rifleman Officer & Standard. CRA into melee to represent training and overall Skorne discipline when thrown into battle, but not gunfighter, since they prefer to rely on Hoksune when actually fighting up close and personal. They're still praetorians at heart, bless their little repurposed souls.

I love these dudes too much to not use them, especially since they've killed a Demo Corps sergeant and Siege for me. On the charge.

[LaughingFerret]

I haven't played with Skorne- I only just picked up some models awhile back because they really started to grow on me. Venators especially seem to have such great character to them. But at a 6/10 cost.. ouch. I would field them just because I'm not a competitive gamer really, but I know a bad bargain when I see one and they just are not worth that point cost.

I think going down to a 5/8 is a good step.
In addition I'd give their reivers Poison or if that makes them then worth more than 5/9 then maybe grant poison with a UA - an officer versed in poisons to increase their damage output and it'd be within character for the skorne.

[Thunder_God]

Venators are my failed mark 2 gamble. I got them a month before mark 2 came out, thinking they may become a worthwhile unit. Well, failed gamble

Also, they actually got MAT knocked down 1, heh.

[Winters_night]

Yeah the more I think on it just a move to 5/8 wouldn't be enough. I've never understood the whole melee armies pay more for ranged to begin with, you get less use out of ranged troopers to start with, and always have less buff support for them (well now no support) so why should they cost more?

[Pickles]

Yeah the more I think on it just a move to 5/8 wouldn't be enough. I've never understood the whole melee armies pay more for ranged to begin with, you get less use out of ranged troopers to start with, and always have less buff support for them (well now no support) so why should they cost more?

I agree completely. You are penalised by not being able to support the units well - you do not need to pay twice because they are not core in our army (It reminds me of WRG Ancients rules from 30 years ago which had the same issue using points to account for rarity).

[Deathraven]

Skorne are supposed to be a faction based on synergy. The problem with venators isn't the venators but the lack of support. I think that we need some sort of ranged debuff spell or animus somewhere that would help these guys out a bit, and also extollers should be able to give eyeless sight to units/models not just models.

[gaminguy]

I think that sprays for the venetors are dumb. I also, however, would love to see some sort of spray unit. cause its fun.

I don't know, look at the design of that gun. It looks like it ought to be able to unload the whole ammo cone in one go. That would be a pretty cool thing to add with a WA. Preferably more than once a game.

Venetors are comparable on paper to long gunners; same point cost, Rat, Def, Cmd, and base POW. Long gunners have 2" more range and RoF 2, Venetors have Burst Fire, one more pip of speed, armor, str, and mat.

In terms of pure shooting capacity; Venetors can hit Pow 22 on a large base, 17 twice or 14 x 5

I wish I could do tables here:
Armor - Venetors CRA 10, 5, 2 - Long Gunners CRA 10, 5, 2 - [Venetor best - LG best]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arm 16 - (V) 13, 16, 25 - (LG) 22, 24, 30 - [-5]
Arm 17 - (V) 12, 14, 20 - (LG) 20 20 20 - [0]
Arm 18 - (V) 11, 12, 15 - (LG) 18, 16, 10 - [-3]
Arm 20 - (V) 9, 8, 5 - (LG) 14, 8, 0 - [-5]
Arm 22 - (V) 7, 4, 0 - (LG) 10, 0, 0 - [-3]

They are not that much less competent than Long Gunners on the big targets. They start suffering on lights, but by the time you get down into the 16 armor targets they are both pretty capable of shredding one in a single volley. Long gunners can just do it twice.

(Long Gunners look more competent at first glance, but it never hurts to do the math.)

On the other hand, at Mat 4 LGs are pretty much screwed if anything engages them. Mat 5 is a bigger bump than it looks due to the bell curve. For the fluff they really should be one-attack praetorians (and by that I mean Mat 6, S+P 9) but with a little support they can handle charging in if they really need to.

I can only think of two other units with really equivalent capability, Trenchers and Nyss Archers. Trenchers are 7/11 for the extra bells and whistles (and smoke bombs are not nearly as annoying as they used to be, although they do get the Mat 6, S+P 9) and Nyss Archers are 5/8 but they die if you sneeze near them. Compared to similar units I don't see how the Venators are really overpriced. I do see the "ranged buffing army" argument, but if the Venators got a discount for being in a Melee army it would only take adding one unit with a good ranged buff (I would love to see a Venator Warlock) and then the Venators would be underpriced. PP probably pointed them the way they did so they would still be balanced if they added other things later.

[droffset]

Well yeah, the book says there are hundreds of needles in there. Sprays are conceivable.

Venators could have a *action that pops a bunch of Eruption of Ash clouds within 8" of each model.

[Yertle4]

All ye who despair, fear not!

Co ref: Flameguard Cleansers. Totally average in FT, totally viable in Mk 2.

[viperidae99]

Easy fix for the Venators.

The Shootiest Skorne in Town - "When affected by a spell, animus or feat that specifies melee attacks, they may substitute ranged attacks to be affected instead"

Mwahahahaha!

[Haugfather]

I used to like my Venators. They were pricey but had some punch and could be surprisingly vicious in melee (The Karax-Venator Block was fun too).

Now, bleah. Nearly everything in the damn game that a POW 9 could do something to is DEF 12 or better so no more surprise charges. With a RAT 5 they need to combine on even soft targets, still.

I just can't see them being worth more than 5/8 and no changes to stats or abilities as they stand now. Honestly that is the only way I would ever take them as a unit. We have so much mobility now we can get melee units in the face of our opponent as fast as we could get the Vens into range.

Now when our book hits I can see a 3 point UA for them that gives them the hail of needles template like the Longgunners. That would be cool.

[Amon]

Another thing that hurts the venators is that some spells and combos that used to be good with them either don't exist or aren't worthwhile anymore. For example:

* eMakeda could revive bunches of them with her feat in MK1, now she'll never waste her feat on them when there are cetrati and praetorians to bring back.
* Mordikaar could revive them with SiA; now he's probably not going to be casting ressurection much in the first place and if he does he's not going to waste it on a venator.
* Hexeris could death march them as a defensive shield if the enemy got too close, now that spell won't deter jack.
* The drake's animus is changed and can't be used to let the venators push enemies around anymore.
* Krea isn't around to lower the def on enemies as easily with her animus
etc etc

Basically we've lost most of the limited options for helping the venators that we used to have.

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

Quite right, Amon - it was remarked as soon as people had read through the rules. They were overprized in Mk1, but in Mk2 they are overprized and lack support that isn't better used on melee models instead. Well, not entirely. They can still be thrown forward during Makeda's feat with a single guy loitering in safety so they can be brought back, but that is because the feat effects go to all troopers in her CTRL area. (Tyrant) Commander Crutch has better uses of Press Forward, for sure.

All ye who despair, fear not!

Co ref: Flameguard Cleansers. Totally average in FT, totally viable in Mk 2.

Ayup. By the addition of an Order nobody else in the game has. That would be fun, of course, but it did sort of counteract the Mk2 ethos of fewer effects.

In that light, I am looking forward to seeing (Order) Not Suck on the January Venator Reivers

But yes, I guess PP will receive a ton of feedback that considers the Reivers overprized for what they can do, so I fully expect them to get something useful in January/Next Summer.

[Haugfather]

Kapt. Congo hit the nail ont he head. They have very little synergy that they used to. In fact, besides the various movement bonuses we have now (that apply just as well to unti that are cheaper and far more combat effective) I am hard pressed to think of any synergy combos for them.

I don't have my MKII cards in front of me but the Drake's new Animus is model not unit, correct? If it were unit that might make them worthwhile but still not even at the listed points.

[Khador247]

They need a points drop (5/8) or a bump in what they can do. currently all they can do is stand there and suck.

Amen brother. Look at the Nyss Hunters which cost the same then look at the Venators. Then cry and put them back in their foam.