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  1. #1
    ummhmm thegreatblah's Avatar
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    Default Debunking the perception that Madrak2 is in the top 5%.

    Reposted from my original (quoted below) in the insider comments thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatblah View Post
    Debunking the perception that Madrak2 is in the top 5%.

    Lots of non-Troll players out there on this forum and maybe even some Troll faction players are jumping on the Madrak2 is all powerful bandwagon. As a long time player of Trolls I will gleefully admit that his feat turn is quite good, the ability to stomp through a whole line of models generating a copious amount of Fury on the way is strong. In fact, Madrak2 is downright bonkers in casual games against less experienced players, this could indeed cause one of the most dreaded grievances in MKIII that is the oft coined a, "NEGATIVE PLAY EXPERIENCE." If pub-stomping your friends with Madrak2 in your casual games makes him a top 5% model in this game then I stand corrected and willfully admit that he needs to be re-balanced.

    That said, there is also a clear reason why he doesn't win nearly as often in tournament play and it is quite simple. Good players that know what his feat does can easily negate its power by doing something VERY SIMPLE. Here's the secret... put your models slightly more than 1" apart! It was relatively easy to do in MKII before pre-measuring was a thing. Now that your distances are never in question all you have to do is weigh the consequence of putting models too close together. Lets be honest while we're at it, in many cases putting things 1.01" apart instead of base to base is not going to hurt you very much. Proper spacing turns Madrak2's all powerful army destruction machine feat into a minimal loss of only a few models feat.

    In short, if there is a strong case for a, "Negative play experience" then by all means, let's re-balance him. But if it is nothing more than a perception of power based on a one trick pony that most players only see happen to them once before they figure out how to apply the easy counter then he is probably fine.
    The Axe is my preferred weapon, though it may lack some finesse of the sword, it makes up the difference in brutality.

  2. #2
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    Yes, but let's not forget that Madrak2 has an entire army of berserking and overtaking models. People seem to forget it's the entire army that gains the benefit. Having said that, I still dont think he's over the top. He probably needs a little tweak, but nothing drastic

  3. #3
    ummhmm thegreatblah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callaway225 View Post
    Yes, but let's not forget that Madrak2 has an entire army of berserking and overtaking models. People seem to forget it's the entire army that gains the benefit. Having said that, I still dont think he's over the top. He probably needs a little tweak, but nothing drastic
    Changes nothing 1.01" + spacing makes it significantly less productive that it can and the reality is most people only fall into the trap once before they know how to counter it.
    The Axe is my preferred weapon, though it may lack some finesse of the sword, it makes up the difference in brutality.

  4. #4

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    Exactly!! Its such a minor adjustment to be prepared for Mad2. People are just caught off guard and unprepared, and then complain that it wasn't fun.

  5. #5
    Destroyer of Worlds Warmachinist2012's Avatar
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    It's amazing how many match ups in the meta you do NOT want to drop him into, he isn't even close to a Mk2 haley2 type of caster that is advantaged vs all comers

    In the end I've never liked fury5 locks/casters, so whatever they do to him won't effect me personally all that much, but I subscribe to the he is by no means an auto win camp and likely fine as is
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  6. #6

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    I still stand by the reasoning the only real reason Madrak sees much table time at all is that he's our only cater that buffs our infantry damage. Grissel1 and Grim2 can with Mortality and Calamity but both are inefficient when youre needing to deal with say multiple heavies where a buff for a unit of your own is much safer and easier to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnustheJust View Post
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  7. #7

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    Thank you for setting the record straight. There are so many whiners, both on the general forums and (surprisingly) on here that are absolutely convinced that Madrak2 is some Haley2 level caster. He's nowhere near meta-breaking, nobody ever builds "anti-Madrak" lists, and there are just so many bad matchups that are prevalent this meta (Jack spam, Gunlines, etc.).

    I'm pretty damn worried that Maddy2 is going to get a nerf based on the amount of fear there is in the forum, when it seems like people who haven't even played the matchup are the most vocal. Madrak2 receiving a harsh nerf means Trollbloods lose our only really competitive infantry caster who can actually deal with high arm/box spam.

  8. #8
    Destroyer of Worlds Aya's Avatar
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    You're forgetting one key thing in your argument though. Trolls just aren't allowed to have nice things.



    Currently painting: Every Troll there is, and maybe some Mercs

  9. #9
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    For the record I dont think he's o empowered. And I do agree that you can mitigate his feat turn if you know what you're doing

  10. #10
    ummhmm thegreatblah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aya View Post
    You're forgetting one key thing in your argument though. Trolls just aren't allowed to have nice things.
    See, there you go reminding me of things I already knew at some point
    The Axe is my preferred weapon, though it may lack some finesse of the sword, it makes up the difference in brutality.

  11. #11
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    2.01" works much better. As although in theory 1.01" works it relies on a few other caveats such as not having a cluster formation where Madrak can get more than one model in range at once due to 2" reach. Otherwise he can still destroy a lot.

  12. #12
    Destroyer of Worlds Trollock's Avatar
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    I have only played Madrak 2 a few times in MK3, but i did play the **** out of Madrak 1 in MK2 (so basically the same feat). Putting models 1.1" apart is NOT nearly enough. I had ppl trying to spread out 3" apart, but that doesnt stop the feat.

    I am not saying Madrak 2 must be nerfed or anything, but the solution is not as simple as spreading out just a tiny bit more than 1". Try it on the table and you will see. This sounds very much like something you theorized about and figured would work, but it sort of assumes al your models are in a line. In reality, they are more in a cloud, and you can advance in 2 dimensions rather than one.

  13. #13

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    Been saying this since the cards were leaked.

    Madrak 2's feat is completely stopped by a good player and/or someone that has been on the recieving end of it once. Much in the same way pMadrak worked in Mk I and Mk II.

    Madrak 2 has the potential of having a completely ball busting feat, at the exact same time he has the potential to have a feat that has no significance.

    As Blah says in the era of premeasuring this should almost never happen, except in rare occasions where terrain and objectives force a player into setting up a situation for Madrak 2 to use his feat.

    I guess sometimes it just comes down to the perception of force, rather than the ability to apply said force.
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  14. #14
    ummhmm thegreatblah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollock View Post
    I have only played Madrak 2 a few times in MK3, but i did play the **** out of Madrak 1 in MK2 (so basically the same feat). Putting models 1.1" apart is NOT nearly enough. I had ppl trying to spread out 3" apart, but that doesnt stop the feat.

    I am not saying Madrak 2 must be nerfed or anything, but the solution is not as simple as spreading out just a tiny bit more than 1". Try it on the table and you will see. This sounds very much like something you theorized about and figured would work, but it sort of assumes al your models are in a line. In reality, they are more in a cloud, and you can advance in 2 dimensions rather than one.
    There is no question he will kill something on his feat turn. The question is how much you are going to allow Madrak2 to kill by using poor or good positioning. You can completely minimize the feat's effectiveness with good positioning, and I'll state it again, most people learn that lesson the hard way exactly once before they figure out the best way to minimize its effectiveness.
    The Axe is my preferred weapon, though it may lack some finesse of the sword, it makes up the difference in brutality.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatblah View Post
    There is no question he will kill something on his feat turn. The question is how much you are going to allow Madrak2 to kill by using poor or good positioning. You can completely minimize the feat's effectiveness with good positioning, and I'll state it again, most people learn that lesson the hard way exactly once before they figure out the best way to minimize its effectiveness.
    But what does "completely minimize" mean though? If it means positioning so Madrak2 can't eat through models all the way to the caster and assassinate, then you're probably right. But if you mean you can completely shut down his feat just from positioning correctly, I'm not sure that's accurate. Worst case he can probably kill some stuff and then he's nigh unkillable. And then his army has berserk and overtake.

  16. #16
    Destroyer of Worlds Trollock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatblah View Post
    There is no question he will kill something on his feat turn. The question is how much you are going to allow Madrak2 to kill by using poor or good positioning. You can completely minimize the feat's effectiveness with good positioning, and I'll state it again, most people learn that lesson the hard way exactly once before they figure out the best way to minimize its effectiveness.
    My point is that if you have 20 infantry on the table and place them 1.01" away from each other, i will still kill all of them with Madrak. Good positioning is key, but it is more difficult than that.

  17. #17

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    here are the casters who beat madrakII at WTC
    http://privateerpressforums.com/show...tat-Pics/page2
    there is no special counter caster every caster can run madrak into empty space. maybe you have to sacrifice beasts or jacks but it´s easy to not let him overtake a congo line and WTC data proves it.
    madrakII was no feared caster even without special counters for him.

  18. #18
    Destroyer of Worlds HellecticMojo's Avatar
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    He should still get nerfed significantly. The fact that he's troll haley 2 in terms of pairing, it's garbage balancing.
    Someone PM me after the game gets fixed.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by HellecticMojo View Post
    He should still get nerfed significantly. The fact that he's troll haley 2 in terms of pairing, it's garbage balancing.
    Significantly? Do you really want him to be worthless and not worth it?
    Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. It can always surpass expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnustheJust View Post
    Khador is fine. It is the player base that needs the errata...
    Quote Originally Posted by Havock View Post
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  20. #20
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    Madrak 2 is already a bad caster. All the data supports this observation. The only thing he actually does is penalize bad players, who use bad positioning. I get that's hard to hear for everyone who has been beaten by Madrak 2. But it's true. He brings no tools that you need to be worried about if you use position properly. He's not even top 10 casters in our faction. He's actively bad. He does nothing that Trolls want to do to address the meta problem of gunlines, control casters, or jack spam. Your tournament pair will be stronger if you leave him at home.

    That said, He's still getting a nerf, because PP has shown they are WAY to worried about trolls getting complaints from the other factions, just like last erratta, he will be killed, he'll never see the table afterword again, and the rest of the community will continue to tell us about how "good" he is post nerf.

  21. #21
    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    The warlock with the weapon master on a stick upkeep does nothing to combat jack spam?
    My tin dudes can take your tin dudes.

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarskeMannen View Post
    The warlock with the weapon master on a stick upkeep does nothing to combat jack spam?
    Correct. Since weaponmasters aren't a counter to jack spam anymore. Seriously, look at all the anti infantry that's been added to the game, if your opponent brought jack spam without anti infantry he brought a bad list, and you can counter it with most things.

  23. #23

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    His biggest issue is Fury 5 so yeah having weaponmaster on a stick is cool, but he cant reliably hot swap it.
    Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. It can always surpass expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnustheJust View Post
    Khador is fine. It is the player base that needs the errata...
    Quote Originally Posted by Havock View Post
    I'd rather win a straight game than scoop up a cheap win because someone's brain just decided that 1+1=banana

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisironbrow View Post
    Correct. Since weaponmasters aren't a counter to jack spam anymore. Seriously, look at all the anti infantry that's been added to the game, if your opponent brought jack spam without anti infantry he brought a bad list, and you can counter it with most things.
    Which commonly seen jack spam list has a favourable matchup in the 40 dude madrak2 list?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald View Post
    Which commonly seen jack spam list has a favourable matchup in the 40 dude madrak2 list?
    well, judging by what metric? since the 40 dude list was only ran by one guy in one event there's really no data on that, however, All common jack spam lists contain anti infantry, and of all of them, the only one that might not have much of an answer specifically to 40 medium based weaponmasters, is the 14 maddogs Karchev list, but that's not a very good list anyways. I mean, how many infantry do you need to remove per turn, before even 40 guys isn't good?

    If my shooting wipes out a unit+ per turn then you don't have multiple units with weaponmaster, you have one, maybe. and you better hope you have threat range to get into more than one 7-12 point jack with your 18 point unit. If my devastators can take a charge from your entire weaponmaster unit of fennblades and still live and then auto kill them all, then weaponmasters don't counter jacks.

    Infantry is dead in MK3 I'm surprised you guys haven't seen it yet. Ret is the closest to an infantry faction right now, and that's only because of sentinels.

  26. #26
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    What jack spam lists are you referring to then?

    As far as I am aware the common ones are karchev, amon, vyros2 and none of them have dedicated anti infantry at all. I am also sure that none of those want to play into madrak2.

    As for infantry being dead, I think irusk2, high reclaimer, ossyan are a few top tier infantry casters that would disagree with that.

  27. #27

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    There's no debunking here. No data, no real assertion. If there's nothing broken about him then you shouldn't mind if he gets a nerf... Or is the claim that he needs a buff?

  28. #28

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    He doesnt need a buff but he doesnt need a nerf if anything cap his fury gain from the Rathrok.
    Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. It can always surpass expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnustheJust View Post
    Khador is fine. It is the player base that needs the errata...
    Quote Originally Posted by Havock View Post
    I'd rather win a straight game than scoop up a cheap win because someone's brain just decided that 1+1=banana

  29. #29
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    His feat offense aren't unusual for a WM/H caster. His surviveability is.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karang029 View Post
    Significantly? Do you really want him to be worthless and not worth it?
    Long as he has grim salvation and blood fury he will never be worthless.

    He's the only +3 infantry damage buffer for us, and with the animi being complete garbage, his stock is already high up.
    Someone PM me after the game gets fixed.

  31. #31
    Conqueror Flogger's Avatar
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    You need your models 4"+41mm apart to avoid Madrak2 as he has 2" melee. 1" is a joke.

    He still doesn't need nerfing, he already got a nerf in mk3 as he cannot sacrifice other dudes against spells.

  32. #32
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    Yeah the 1" spacing advise is not very helpful and inaccurate. I think it sounds a lot like theorymachine without any practice. I dont think Madrak needs nerfing and actually theres lots that counters him. Hes very punishing to newer players or if youve not seen him before but no where near the powercasters in the game (probably because the best casters are control based on multiple levels).

  33. #33
    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisironbrow View Post
    All common jack spam lists contain anti infantry, and of all of them, the only one that might not have much of an answer specifically to 40 medium based weaponmasters, is the 14 maddogs Karchev list, but that's not a very good list anyways.
    Vyros2, Amon Ad-Raza and Karchev are probably the closest thing to 'common' warjack spammers that you'll find. None of them run significant anti-infantry tools. Also, the only people who say the 12 Mad Dogs list is bad are the people that haven't seen it played by a strong player. I've never read "Well, I was wrong about that list" as many times as I did after the WTC when Johan, Jocke and Bubba all mauled people with Mad Dog spam.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisironbrow View Post
    Infantry is dead in MK3 I'm surprised you guys haven't seen it yet. Ret is the closest to an infantry faction right now, and that's only because of sentinels.
    You make a lot of very broad, sweeping assertions that I'm not sure are entirely based on fact.
    My tin dudes can take your tin dudes.

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  34. #34
    Destroyer of Worlds Warmachinist2012's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerhien View Post
    There's no debunking here. No data, no real assertion. If there's nothing broken about him then you shouldn't mind if he gets a nerf... Or is the claim that he needs a buff?
    Sorry, but I don't get this post at all. Why would you conclude that they shouldn't care if he is nerfd if there's nothing broken about him? Bizzarro.

    The only "data" we could really point at is his poor performance in the WTC and the hipster trend seems to be saying that data is worthless?
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  35. #35

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    Worthless no I'd say. Worth less maybe
    Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. It can always surpass expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnustheJust View Post
    Khador is fine. It is the player base that needs the errata...
    Quote Originally Posted by Havock View Post
    I'd rather win a straight game than scoop up a cheap win because someone's brain just decided that 1+1=banana

  36. #36
    Conqueror Viss's Avatar
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    My experience with Madrak 2 is that if you play against pro player he will make his moves that you cannot profit from pacmaning

    BUT

    this takes him a LOT of time and this is what is most annoying when you are facing Madrak2... it's very simmilar to facing Butcher3 in Mk2... you need to be sure with every move you take and then switch clock to your opponent... most of hard matchups i won just by the clock or failed assassination to him, not by using his feat... his feat is just fear factor vs wise opponent

    EDIT: i've played his "standard" list with warders not that spam with 40 men
    Last edited by Viss; 10-07-2016 at 06:54 AM.

  37. #37
    ummhmm thegreatblah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobyn View Post
    Yeah the 1" spacing advise is not very helpful and inaccurate. I think it sounds a lot like theorymachine without any practice. I dont think Madrak needs nerfing and actually theres lots that counters him. Hes very punishing to newer players or if youve not seen him before but no where near the powercasters in the game (probably because the best casters are control based on multiple levels).
    Actually it is very correct, maybe not in the first couple of models he kills but it only takes a few overtakes before the greater than 1" spacing rule takes effect. As shown in MKII against Madrak1 and now MKIII against Madrak2, it doesn't take a lot of effort to space your models out a little to minimize the effectiveness of the feat. This isn't new news either, its just now on Madrak2 instead of Madrak1. Good players know that on his feat they will lose something, but they also know how to sacrifice a few models to his feat to save the rest.
    The Axe is my preferred weapon, though it may lack some finesse of the sword, it makes up the difference in brutality.

  38. #38

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    I mean, players don't seem to have any issues spacing their models out to avoid electroleap, and that's a much bigger gap needed.

  39. #39
    Destroyer of Worlds HellecticMojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyroid View Post
    I mean, players don't seem to have any issues spacing their models out to avoid electroleap, and that's a much bigger gap needed.
    You don't get to choose electro leap spreads and electro leaps don't give cygnar casters focus.
    the whole "spread models out" advice is ridiculous to begin with. Unit command is restrictive enough. Also the whole P madrak was not op in mkii argument forgets that madrak 1 never got fury for killing, and he didn't have auto grievous wounds.

    Madrak 2 is a mistake.
    Someone PM me after the game gets fixed.

  40. #40

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    I wasn't making any inclining that electroleap = Mad2, just a factual statement that people don't have problems spacing out to limit electroleap, which has a much greater range to take into consideration. The players at my LGS space things out all the time to avoid AOEs and leap.

    All this Mad2 is OP chatter is a case of chicken little.

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