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  1. #121
    Conqueror Tenzilla's Avatar
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    I'm thinking I may switch the bokur for Orin. And I would like to make room for Ivan or a destroyer, something that can contribute while being Harks escort. A rager makes some sense.

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenzilla View Post
    I'm thinking I may switch the bokur for Orin.
    Orin is an integral part of Hark's game against Wurmwood as well as Haley2&3. - But as said: he does low ARM and spot removal (you can boost his initial shot!) really well if there's no other need for his tokens.

    But well, shield guards are just as important when going against Sloan: they have to intercept the Shadowfire shots - or Hark just dies.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harkevich View Post
    Thanks for the link to this AWESOME source of inspiration!
    Where do I find MORE of these batreps and discussions about me?
    I have been posting batreps here lately, which are usually about you: http://museonminis.com/forums/index.php?topic=6011.0
    I play Harkevich. Because I'm one of those jerks who has the audacity to play a battle wizard controlling an army of big stompy robots in a game about battle wizards controlling big stompy robots.

  4. #124
    Warrior Druzhina_Dropout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by @Kriegsspiele View Post
    while ventsteaming some stickmen.

    One minor thing to note Krieg is that because the stickmen are neither living or undead (they are contructs), they are not affected by vent steam

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Druzhina_Dropout View Post
    One minor thing to note Krieg is that because the stickmen are neither living or undead (they are contructs), they are not affected by vent steam
    Urgh. That's indeed true. Gosh, these circleish extras. Need to memorize this.

    PS: Dropped my opponent a note - and offered a beer.

    PPS: My opponent replied by also offering a beer - for casting Hellmouth on stickmen out of formation.

    Always trouble with stickmen.
    Last edited by @Kriegsspiele; 01-06-2017 at 06:53 AM.

  6. #126
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    Is there any argument to make a Hark list that is based more on a gun line?

    I would love to make a Hark list that could be played a couple of different ways by magnetizing some kits and swapping a few jacks around.

    I am asking because I have some ideas to convert and paint up an "Iron Wolf" theme list and it would be great if could incorporate this into my plans.

    Thoughts?

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciroth View Post
    Is there any argument to make a Hark list that is based more on a gun line?
    There are even three good reasons to think about a jack-based gunline: 1. Harkevich's feat, 2. Broadside, 3. Repo. - Harkevich is very obviously supporting these thoughts. He looks like he's even made to run a jack-based gunline!

    The problem: Khador doesn't own the necessary jacks - at least not yet.

    1. RAT 4 isn't very helpful when you can't boost or get an aiming bonus like under Broadside. You can only add +2 RAT to 2 jacks' first shots/turn via the Artillery Kapitan. There can only be one (pretty costly) Black Ivan. You can of course still fix the RAT via Ternions/Kolduns or by KDing the target (Field Guns, Slams/Throws, Thor/Avalancher). But this costs you a lot of points and makes your list pretty bloated and less effective.

    2. And if you've managed to make Khador heavies hit, you now face the next problem: DMG output. POW 14/15 or POW 7 blast sounds a lot, but who does care about it? Low ARM beasts of course. That's why they are Stealth or sitting behind some forest that often. So you need Reinholdt or Flares now, too. (And still can't do anything against forests.) Normal and high ARM beasts/jacks don't care about (unboosted) POW 14/15s - not even a lot of them. A&H+V would cost another 12 points! - And the blast DMG? It's not that relevant in the current meta, where single wounds are either non-existent, have very high ARM, are blast-immune, or are shooting from and not even leaving their deployment zone mostly.

    To summarize: Playing a jack based gunline with Harkevich is costly but still good fun! Others and I have played and posted interesting lists throughout this thread. But if you want to play H1 competitively and with a lean and maximized list: all I can tell you is to avoid building your list around guns. Broadside in particular really is a trap in Khador. (Cygnar shall never own this spell!) - If you want to run an effective gunline in Khador, have a look at V1, S1/2, B1: they support jack and trooper based guns very, very well and effective.
    Last edited by @Kriegsspiele; 01-05-2017 at 11:06 PM.

  8. #128
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    Kriegsspiele, that was an amazing answer and sums up the problems I have had with other factions and creating a "gun line." I guess I never thought to break it down as you have. Thank you! It makes so much more sense now.

  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciroth View Post
    Kriegsspiele, that was an amazing answer and sums up the problems I have had with other factions and creating a "gun line." I guess I never thought to break it down as you have. Thank you! It makes so much more sense now.
    You're welcome. I really wanted to make this work, but it simply doesn't with the tools we own.

    On the other hand: I switched to Harkevich to fight a jack based gunline that's way too powerful in my opinion. Sloan and her Hunters are pure madness. They need a direct counter like Hark. Most people hate playing against that list. Same for Ossrum bunnies. Imagine what Hark would do with access to something like Hunters or bunnies!? I don't think it would be healthy for the game, would it?

  10. #130

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    Kriegsspiele, thank you for creating this awesome KGB for Hark! I have become increasingly excited to play him, especially after the errata. My question for everyone is do you think a H1/B3 pairing would cover enough of the field to be viable? I am thinking using H1 as my primary and B3 as my backup. The only problem I see is being out threatened against gun lines as neither list contain much if any ranged options. For reference I am using a version of your awesome list with the double Mauraders and B3 with Devastators, Drakuns and Elims. While I have been playing for a while, it is always with fits and starts due to school and work, so I still feel pretty green in the pairing department!

    Thanks!

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by GDL_129 View Post
    My question for everyone is do you think a H1/B3 pairing would cover enough of the field to be viable? I am thinking using H1 as my primary and B3 as my backup.
    H1 indeed covers mostly anything - except for some Ret things (Issy/Ossy in particular). - And there are some fights that I prefer to transfer elsewhere because I, personally, don't like playing them: think Rasheth vs Hark. It's a really, really boring grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by GDL_129 View Post
    The only problem I see is being out threatened against gun lines as neither list contain much if any ranged options.
    That's a misconception! The only gunlines that in some way "out threat" H1 are Sloan (I don't think Caine2 is relevant anymore) and some Legion builds (like Lylyth3). All others stare at a 12'' cloud wall that's advancing towards them without intermission.

    I particularly started playing Hark as a counter to Sloan after I realized that B3 isn't good enough in that matchup. The game works this way mostly: run & feat, run & engage Hunters (or other shooty jacks), remove Hunters. If the Hunters withdraw from the 15'' engage Hark has already won on scenario (what he does mostly anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by GDL_129 View Post
    While I have been playing for a while, it is always with fits and starts due to school and work, so I still feel pretty green in the pairing department!
    You definitely need a counter to Issy/Ossy. That matchup can be done by many in Khador. I prefer B3 (with double Elims and Drakhuns) because he opens even more matchups, but S1 and Strakhov are able to get Ret (all flavours) under control, too. I'm even thinking about giving OW a testrun sooner or later.

  12. #132
    Conqueror Dango's Avatar
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    Exactly how integral is Orin to the wurmwood matchup? Looking at wurmwood's tools, stranglehold through an arc node looks outright obnoxious against a jack heavy list. But with Orin being as slow as he is, without pathfinder, and me running my jacks to control the board, will it be a super uphill battle without him?

    The reason I ask is those 5 points, while simultaneously trying to get my two shield guards in make a big difference in my hypothesized list.

    I had a realization that 3 fully loaded juggernauts can't take down an arcane shielded stormwall in one round. I learned this against Darius and had a bad time. This slotted in either Ruin or Ragman to help. That led me to lose out on Orin. One factor is that I only own one Bokur but two ragers. I'd ideally like to keep the rager as my shield guard instead of buying a second Bokur. If I can't make it work against wurmwood without Orin I may just grab a second Bokur- drop the rager and add Orin to version B

    My two musings are:

    Version A- w/Orin
    War Room Army

    Khador - **Harkevich

    Theme: No Theme Selected
    75 / 75 Army


    Stockpile - Steamroller Objective

    Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf - WJ: +28
    - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
    - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
    - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
    - Marauder - PC: 10
    - Juggernaut - PC: 12
    - Ruin - PC: 17
    - Rager - PC: 11

    Ogrun Bokur - PC: 5
    Ragman - PC: 4
    Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 5


    Version B- No Orin, double Marauder
    War Room Army

    Khador - **Harkevich

    Theme: No Theme Selected
    75 / 75 Army


    Stockpile - Steamroller Objective

    Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf - WJ: +28
    - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
    - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
    - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
    - Marauder - PC: 10
    - Marauder - PC: 10
    - Juggernaut - PC: 12
    - Juggernaut - PC: 12
    - Rager - PC: 11

    Ogrun Bokur - PC: 5
    Ragman - PC: 4

  13. #133
    Destroyer of Worlds Crazy Uncle Doug's Avatar
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    I've said this in Mk. II, and I suspect it still holds. Broadsides is not a trap, it just doesn't do for us what it does for other factions. I've always regarded and played Harky as a melee team caster. Broadsides I've used to soften up the enemy as we close in on them, and to encourage them not to stand back and take any punishment. Again, the goal is to get Harky's team into melee combat. As a result, in Mk. II I generally took 2-3 warjacks with him, one of them always being Black Ivan. The other two leaned towards low-Focus 'jacks like the Marauder and others. It made for a pretty brutal team, but this being Mk. II I never played him at less than 50 points. Back than, Broadsides wasn't bad, it was just situational, and not something we should use often (like Bart would, for example).

    Can't wait to try him in Mk. III with the changes to him and the game overall.
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  14. #134
    Conqueror Dango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Uncle Doug View Post
    I've said this in Mk. II, and I suspect it still holds. Broadsides is not a trap, it just doesn't do for us what it does for other factions. I've always regarded and played Harky as a melee team caster. Broadsides I've used to soften up the enemy as we close in on them, and to encourage them not to stand back and take any punishment. Again, the goal is to get Harky's team into melee combat. As a result, in Mk. II I generally took 2-3 warjacks with him, one of them always being Black Ivan. The other two leaned towards low-Focus 'jacks like the Marauder and others. It made for a pretty brutal team, but this being Mk. II I never played him at less than 50 points. Back than, Broadsides wasn't bad, it was just situational, and not something we should use often (like Bart would, for example).

    Can't wait to try him in Mk. III with the changes to him and the game overall.
    I'll clarify this here, as it was discussed earlier in another thread. When the term "trap" is used we aren't talking about whether or not to cast the spell during a game. We are talking about whether it is a trap to build a list around the spell, like adding multiple destroyers in addition to black ivan. Having Black ivan in the list isn't a bad idea necessarily on this line of thought, but building your battlegroup around the idea that a large portion of your strategy revolves around that additional ranged attack may be a trap.
    Last edited by Dango; 01-06-2017 at 04:25 PM. Reason: Was the Broadside thread, not this thread

  15. #135
    Destroyer of Worlds Crazy Uncle Doug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dango View Post
    I'll clarify this here, as it was discussed earlier in another thread. When the term "trap" is used we aren't talking about whether or not to cast the spell during a game. We are talking about whether it is a trap to build a list around the spell, like adding multiple destroyers in addition to black ivan. Having Black ivan in the list isn't a bad idea necessarily on this line of thought, but building your battlegroup around the idea that a large portion of your strategy revolves around that additional ranged attack may be a trap.
    Ah. Good point. And I agree entirely. Sorry about that.
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  16. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by @Kriegsspiele View Post
    Urgh. That's indeed true. Gosh, these circleish extras. Need to memorize this.

    PS: Dropped my opponent a note - and offered a beer.

    PPS: My opponent replied by also offering a beer - for casting Hellmouth on stickmen out of formation.
    LEARNING is the KEY TO SUCCESS!
    Beer is almost always a good thing!
    You are a HONORABLE Khadoran!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dango View Post
    Exactly how integral is Orin to the wurmwood matchup? Looking at wurmwood's tools, stranglehold through an arc node looks outright obnoxious against a jack heavy list. But with Orin being as slow as he is, without pathfinder, and me running my jacks to control the board, will it be a super uphill battle without him?
    I LOVE this little fellow.
    The world is not one huge forest.

  17. #137
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    Played my standard Hark list into Kara Sloan. Played it badly so you pronbably can learn

    Hark
    Reinholdt
    Jugger
    Devestator
    Demolisher
    Jugger
    Behemoth

    Joe+WGI (min)+UA+3 rockets

    The list is built this way to deal with Una2.

    It is the

    He had

    Kara
    Reinholdt's clone
    4 hunters
    2 Grenadiers
    Min Trenchers
    Strangeways
    2 ATGM solos
    Murdoc and A&H


    We played Outlast (one with 2 cicular zones). I won roll. As per guidelines - a decent amount of terrain in the middle.

    My "plan" was to try to attrition him - figuring that if I could weahter the feat turn I could then start wrecking jacks.
    So I deployed all the jacks but the Devestator against the left zone and then the WGI and Devestator against the right

    My opponent countered by deploying his gun line against the main body of the army and then just A&H and Murdoch against the right.

    Turn 1 (or first mistake)

    Cast mobility and ran. WGI ran. Joe Toughed. Pass turn.

    So here I think the plan should have been (we talked a LOT about it) to feat top of 1. My plan was to feat top of 2 (keep reading) but I think to keep Big B alive it would have been better. The hunters under sloan outthreat BB under mobliity so there is going to be turn of shooting you have to weather. Better it be at ARM 23.

    Turn 1 bottom

    He feats and murders Behemoth and 1 Jugger. It was UGLY. Some spikes (more spikes later) but lost the 2 jacks. Over on the right Murdoc and A&H advance cautiously and mini feat.

    Turn 2 Top

    I feat and keep moving up. Demolisher moves up and gets a shot off on one of the Grenadiers. Fails to spike (sad Demolisher) and then for some dumb reason I repo BACK from a gunline rather than Forward. Yeah - it would be that sort of match up ;-) . Rockets start shooting at 1 of the Grenadiers and put some damage on. Rest move up to get into the zone. Yeah team.

    Turn 2 bottom

    Faced with the mini-feat he ingores the clams and hits the Jugger. Yeah - these jacks under Sloan murder an ARM 23 Jugger. Sad Jugger. Again. Mobility - charge 9. Repo forward another 3. Say it with me. I had to chant it alone all the way home ;-) Over on the right things go better. Murdoc and Holt both wiff killing a WGI grunt that should have died (1 low damage roll one double 1s to hit). Yeah team infantry.

    Turn 3 top


    OK - things can improve. WGI gets the mini feat sprays down a few things, including A&H. Rockets get close to wrecking Grenadier 1. Devestator Rains of Death Murdoc who sadly makes tough roll (big roll it runs out) but he is out of the zone. I clear it and go up 1-0. Hark is moving toward right zone.

    Turn3 bottom
    He shoots at the Devestator but now ARM 23 starts to pay off. He hurts it but fails to kill it outright. Murdoc gets up and walks into zone and does nothing. Nothing threatening WGI. Joe dies to stray ATGM with no WGI around to protect him (sad Joe).

    Turn 4 top. Another bad mistake


    Murdoc gets bulldozed out of the zone. WGIofficer puts shot into his grill. He toughs but then another WGI kills him on the ground (yeah Mark 3). Demolisher finally understands the game and goes and engages some hunters. And then, for some ridicuslously stupid reason - HARK DOES NOT RUN BEHIND HOUSE BUT Casts mobility and walks 7 to get into the right zone. Yeah. Dominate. Good. Within 22 inches of Hunters. Very Very Very bad. Khador up 3-0. But this is going to be bad.

    Turn 4 bottom

    Hark gets shot to death by Kara and 4 hunters - one triggers free strike by Demolisher and survived it who subsequently died to a brutal shot that spiked very high.

    Observations

    I think the feat on top of 1 is the right play. When playing him into a gun line you gotta close and you have to close with as much as possible. What I SHOULD have done is cast mobility, feat, and then move Hark immediately toward the Right zone While making sure the Jacks ended up still in his control range. Turn 2 would have been more running by all but Big B - who would have shot. Hark try to weather Holt and Murdoc in a sea of WGI. Plus charge and Repo FORWARD, not backward ;-)

    I still like WGI with him. Perhaps one of out 6 games they disappoint since I put this but generally they are getting work done. Joe is actually a lot more interesting (if less powerful) post nerf - you really do have to choose between super shots and tough now and it is an interesting choice. Repo on the rockets is DAMM good.

    And finally Hark can be on the squishy side. Since in most other games he is B2B with a jack one can forget that he is 14/16. Kara helped remind me that wilts under enough firepower ;-)

    All in all a good game. I liked how it played. I should probably have tested my B3 build since I have that optimized against Haley2 (who I crushed wonderfully with my B3 Voltron list earlier in evening) but I wanted to play Hark this week as well. Again, feat on top of 1, run. Run on top of 2 and I think I put scenario pressure on him - possibly disable 1 or more lights with Big B. I also wonder, post Caine2 nerf, whether it is time to once again look at pairing Hark/B3 with a dude list (Irusk2 with 3-4 units of doom reavers is starting to intrigue me again). The way Caine was pre-nerf just made that list really problematic if you had to think you were facing into him. Now it feels really possible - and has elements of what made Mad dogs both so much fun and so powerful in MK2. Plus I got 49 doomies....might want to get SOME play out of em ;-)

  18. #138
    Annihilator The Armchair Warrior's Avatar
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    San, nice batrep. Helpful, especially since the local Cygnar player isn't dropping Sloan (at least not on me, but maybe he's taking pity?)

    Three question for you:

    1. You don't have a shield guard in your Hark list. Or Orin. How badly are you missing them.
    2. Against this Sloan list, what Butcher 3 list would you have dropped?
    3. Against this Sloan list, do you think Karchev and 7 or 8 jacks would have game? And... would you rather have 7 with more road to war triggers (e.g. Scouts), or 8 with just some mechs/Tinkers?

  19. #139

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    I think you feated correclty. At least it was more correct than feating turn 1. Hark feat is good when you either score/contest or get free charges off it. Just moving up the field under feat is meh, you also would get hit only with hunters on turn 1 so feating later saves more damage.
    Behemoth is target number 1 for hunters with the way he's costed and statted and will always die in this matchup, you can't prevent that.

    I wonder how he killed Juggy on your feat turn without feating himself and A&H on the other side of table. Was it good rolls?

    The moment you started scoring his zone you get in a good position. At this point he has to send his hunters to descore and die. Hark can just hide somewhere and dominate later for last point.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Armchair Warrior View Post
    San, nice batrep. Helpful, especially since the local Cygnar player isn't dropping Sloan (at least not on me, but maybe he's taking pity?)

    Three question for you:

    1. You don't have a shield guard in your Hark list. Or Orin. How badly are you missing them.
    2. Against this Sloan list, what Butcher 3 list would you have dropped?
    3. Against this Sloan list, do you think Karchev and 7 or 8 jacks would have game? And... would you rather have 7 with more road to war triggers (e.g. Scouts), or 8 with just some mechs/Tinkers?
    1. As I said, the better test would have been my Butcher 3 Voltron list. It has Orin and a bokur in it. Now clearly a shield guard could have keep Hark alive and possibly won the game) but I would have to lose a Jugger and I worry about hitting power if I overload the list with lots of pillowfists. Or I lose the WGI and they are very important for the Una2 drop. Now Big B is there but with 2 juggers on the table as well it forces "choices" and that is good. I am thinking, however, of a Hark list that gets that support in as well as mechanics and is build largely as an attrition machine.

    2. I wrote up my Butcher 3 list in that KGB. Essentially 2 kodiaks, Ruin and Butcher and then the Shocktrooper boat. I likely would have maddy run at her with the 3 jacks in front, then the 2 dogs, and then Butcher. 10 inches up the field turn 1. He can Shadowfire the Jacks but then has to kill the dogs FIRST before getting to Butcher. I THINK he can withstand it. Then Vegenance (3") Enegize (2), Charge (8), Impending Doom (5) I think allows Butcher to go eat Sloan if he survives. I might have even more humerously put the shocktroppers in a mass in front of Butcher was well. Basically "the Blob". I think it is a near autowin because I don't think he can stop the blob in time. But I had to think about this overnight so who knows if I would have figured it out in time. I PROBABLY decide to go second because I want to be able to put the blob directly opposite Kara.

    3. I think it could work. He killed 2 jacks under Kara;s . With some spikes however. So if you had jacks you would have a lot left. I like Tinkers because it feels like Karchev himself is going to eat some shots. The key is closing. Once you get there you win. The trick is getting there. (see point 2 above and the battle rep). You have to know you are going to watch some Jacks melt. Don't cry over it. Just get to her and the paper thin hunters. Picking off Reinholdt is also pretty useful here - denies her a third POW 12 Weaponmaster shot. That is my biggest concern wtih Special K - she can put 4 Dice -6 into him pretty easily. That isn't going to kill him in one turn....but it WILL hurt. So having a way of healing him back up would seem very useful....along with overboosting the field so that you can minimize it. Probably why I like Hark better into this (or B3). You really want to be able to get the Jacks up the field as fast as possible. Vlad 1 is the best (Speed x2 being a thing) but mobility second best option and Energize is good to. Road to war can help here (a lot) but it is predicated in this match up of him giving you good things. Dug in Trenchers require 10s from your Widows..so in that case he probably keeps the other stuff WAY back till end game just to deny you targets while he shoots up the max 8 inch running jacks.

  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal View Post
    I think you feated correclty. At least it was more correct than feating turn 1. Hark feat is good when you either score/contest or get free charges off it. Just moving up the field under feat is meh, you also would get hit only with hunters on turn 1 so feating later saves more damage.
    Behemoth is target number 1 for hunters with the way he's costed and statted and will always die in this matchup, you can't prevent that.

    I wonder how he killed Juggy on your feat turn without feating himself and A&H on the other side of table. Was it good rolls?

    The moment you started scoring his zone you get in a good position. At this point he has to send his hunters to descore and die. Hark can just hide somewhere and dominate later for last point.
    He Spiked to kill the Jugger. As I said, I could have won if I had just run behind the house. I am not sure the Hunters could have even gotten there by running. He did have some infantry grunts but the Winter guard (and Hark himself with Rienholdts reload) should have been able to get rid of them. I guess we thought that if I feat top of 1 and run 12....and then he isn't able to knock out movement I can run another 12 (and threaten/tie down stuff at 13). I can also trample any trenchers taht are trying to get in the way That is at his AD line. Puts a ton of pressure on him. But I do think you are right - even at ARM 23 the Behemoth is tough to keep alive if him puts a bunch of hunter and Grenadier and Kara shots into him - and especially if he loses the subcortex.

  22. #142
    Annihilator The Armchair Warrior's Avatar
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    I hadnt' thought about those trenchers being DEF 17 dug in, (so needing 10s or 8s, or 16% and 41% odds). If he's faced Karchev before he's going to know you've got that ace in your hole, and will likely not line up within 14" of the Scouts. I guess I'd rather have an extra jack.

    Thanks again for the write up.

  23. #143
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    Sorry for the delay Komrads, but since we can, I do:


    Q: Now that card information is going to be available for free online, is it still going to be against the terms of use on the forums to post stats and rules?

    A: There will be no restrictions on posting stats and rules in the forums, going forward. Post away!
    More will follow

  24. #144
    Warrior Druzhina_Dropout's Avatar
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    January 8, 2017
    Scenario: Outlast
    Opponent: Greg S
    Initiative: Me

    Harkevich1
    Kodiak
    Kodiak
    Kodiak
    Juggernaut
    Juggernaut
    Marauder
    Marauder
    Ogrun Bokur (c: Harkevich)
    Ogrun Bokur (c: Ragman)
    Ragman
    Orin Midwinter

    Darius1
    Sylys
    Centurion
    Centurion
    Stormclad
    Stormclad
    Jr Warcaster
    Sentinel
    Ragman
    Laddermore
    Strangeways
    Tinker

    -This game was pretty straight forward
    -I run up, he runs up
    -I notice ragman is killable, I allocate all my focus and cast mobility
    -He has nothing in charge range since the centurions have polarity field up
    -I run or trample all my jacks forward, buying attacks on a stormclad to get the damage train started
    -Orin moves up, zaps a kodiak in the back, because so much of his stuff is electric immune, the closest model is ragman, so I boost and kill rags
    -He tries to fight back, but without ragman and subpar dice he only wrecks half a kodiak
    -I move my ragman into position and remove three of his heavies
    -Greg concedes

    -We re-rack and try to have a fast game before the store closes an hour later, he goes first this time to change things up
    -He runs up, I run up
    -This time he keeps ragman way back, realizing that with crane, ragman can affect an enemy model just under 15" away
    -I want to save my feat so I try to stay out his threat range but have to put something in the zone
    -He responds by killing the jack in the zone and refuges away, moving darius into the zone
    -Very bad play by me, he gets 2pts, a free jack and once again, nothing is in my threat range, stupid me
    -He shifts his other jacks towards the zone he dominated
    -Now I feat and throw my jacks at him, but can only trample, but with ragman and 3 jacks he's able to do alot of damage
    -he doesn't score but does a lot of damage and I lose ragman to silly placement. I have no assassination vector, he has all 4 heavies and the store is closing, I concede


    -Sorry, no pictures again, why do I even try?
    -Darius with double centurion is a tough matchup for Harkevich I feel, at least in this scenario, especially if Hark goes second
    -Darius can get around the cloud wall by running or tramping followed by a lot of jack hammers
    -The arm23 and arm24 centurions that can't be charged are incredibly difficult to deal with without Ruin (even with ruin they are no walk in the park)
    -using crane, his ragman has a ~15" application of his debuff
    -If I can kill ragman before I use my feat, I'm in good shape, if not I think Hark needs to spread his jacks so Darius can only apply dark shroud to a few of my jacks
    -Need to keep juggernauts safe, they are the most important in this matchup
    -I also need to work hard to keep my ragman safe, need to be wary of the d3 leaps from laddermore
    -I think this build of Darius is favoured against my build of Hark
    Last edited by Druzhina_Dropout; 01-08-2017 at 11:36 PM.

  25. #145
    Warrior Druzhina_Dropout's Avatar
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    Does anyone have experience into a double centurion build of darius? It seems rough on Hark. I'd love any insight

  26. #146
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    Played my first game with Harkevich this week and I have mixed feelings.

    @Dango:
    Had the same Idea. 1 Ogrun + 1 Rager, but I like your idea better.

    I played:
    System: Warmachine
    Faction: Khador
    Caster: 1 / 1
    Points: 75 / 75
    Harkevich1 (Kommander Harkevich The Iron Wolf ) -28
    - Kodiak 13
    - Kodiak 13
    - Kodiak 13
    - Marauder 10
    - Marauder 10
    - Rager 11
    - Juggernaut 12
    Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor 5
    Ogrun Bokur 5
    Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3) 3
    Widowmaker Scouts 8

    against Trolls as opponent, scenario was the one with just 2 Flags. Please don't ask what he brought, have really no clue. It was a Beast heavy List (5 Heavy, 1 Light I think) with a Warlock whose feat gives +3" Charge.

    At the start everything went well. He ran up, while I advanced under clouds, he really couldn't do anything, but my WM Scouts were useless too.

    Turn 2 he shuffled around but couldn't do anything. But he stayed out of charge ranges. I feated (to early in hindsight) and engaged with a Marauder and a Kodiak, while still keeping up the cloudwall and hiding my Jacks behind it. Hark moved to the Flag and started scoring. I should have sacrificed the 2 Jacks here and feated a Turn later when everything was engaged.

    Turn 3. He threw the engaged Jacks away (forgot I gut Jumpstart) and moved around, but didn't contest. I drop my cloudwall (Big Mistake) and engage everything. But the Jugger doesn't reach and everything else is a bit pillowfisted against trolls. So everything is thrown around and goes KD, but nothing dies. I score again.

    Turn 4. He sees that he can't contest and tries the last second Assasination which succeeds. I forgot to Vent Steam and Repo last round so he could move up and because Orin was out of Range too he could freely cast. Shieldguards did nothing because HE JUST THREW MY OWN JACKS AT ME! Which was funny, but a bit depressing.

    Afterthought:
    Technically I lost but it doesn't feel that way, more like a unsatisfactory Win. While I couldn't hurt him and pretty much nothing died, I just annoyed and blocked him with my Jacks. If I wouldn't have been so gready with Orin for dmg and just stayed within 3" of Harkevich I would have easily won.
    Rager was good, because I just parked him with Harkevich so he always was beefed up. Although he couldn't shieldguard Harkevich would have been dead a lot sooner.

    I think I would keep Ragman, and/or the 2nd beatstick heavy.

  27. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dango View Post
    Exactly how integral is Orin to the wurmwood matchup?
    I wouldn't want to miss him exactly in these matchups: Circle & Cygnar. He's the perfect answer. For sure, he'll only save you from 3 Strangelholds during the first 1.5 turns. But that's a really massive difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harkevich View Post
    Beer is almost always a good thing!
    Signed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sand20go View Post
    I won roll.
    And you went first. - I would have gone 2nd.

    I'm almost always going 2nd against a gunline when I'm able to chose. You're asking why? Because that reduces the option for the gunline to shoot at me by one full turn! And it simply can't stay back because I can start scoring control points first even more easily then.

    Rule of thumb: don't go first against a gunline, especially a gunline that's super fragile (like Sloan's). - And that's even more true for Harkevich: go 2nd - and in your 1st turn run as far up as possible (with Mobility) and feat. Next turn: engage as many Hunters and other stuff as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Armchair Warrior View Post
    I hadnt' thought about those trenchers being DEF 17 dug in, (so needing 10s or 8s, or 16% and 41% odds).
    DEF of single wounds doesn't matter at all because Vent Steam hits automatically.

    ARM of single wounds doesn't matter (too much) because Vent Steam can be boosted.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDAntoine View Post
    More will follow
    Thanks! Added it to the initial post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Druzhina_Dropout View Post
    Orin moves up, zaps a kodiak in the back, because so much of his stuff is electric immune, the closest model is ragman, so I boost and kill rags
    I'm sorry, but you can only boost Orin's initial shot - not the leaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Druzhina_Dropout View Post
    Darius with double centurion is a tough matchup for Harkevich I feel, at least in this scenario, especially if Hark goes second ... Darius can get around the cloud wall by running or tramping followed by a lot of jack hammers ... I think this build of Darius is favoured against my build of Hark
    Jackhammer is huge. But still: the jacks are losing their initials by trampling. Clouding & feating helps a lot. More important: play on scenario and use Kodiaks & Marauders to your advantage. It's so extremely powerful to throw heavies 6'' away, ventsteam, repo behind the cloud. Same for slams. Score and repeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skathrex View Post
    HE JUST THREW MY OWN JACKS AT ME! Which was funny, but a bit depressing.
    Do it yourself! We're so amazingly good at this! Kodiaks have MAT 7, they can even charge in. Threat 10'' with Mobility. Same for Marauders when slamming.
    Last edited by @Kriegsspiele; 01-09-2017 at 06:53 AM.

  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skathrex View Post
    Played my first game with Harkevich this week and I have mixed feelings.

    @Dango:
    Had the same Idea. 1 Ogrun + 1 Rager, but I like your idea better.

    I played:
    System: Warmachine
    Faction: Khador
    Caster: 1 / 1
    Points: 75 / 75
    Harkevich1 (Kommander Harkevich The Iron Wolf ) -28
    - Kodiak 13
    - Kodiak 13
    - Kodiak 13
    - Marauder 10
    - Marauder 10
    - Rager 11
    - Juggernaut 12
    Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor 5
    Ogrun Bokur 5
    Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3) 3
    Widowmaker Scouts 8

    against Trolls as opponent, scenario was the one with just 2 Flags. Please don't ask what he brought, have really no clue. It was a Beast heavy List (5 Heavy, 1 Light I think) with a Warlock whose feat gives +3" Charge.

    At the start everything went well. He ran up, while I advanced under clouds, he really couldn't do anything, but my WM Scouts were useless too.

    Turn 2 he shuffled around but couldn't do anything. But he stayed out of charge ranges. I feated (to early in hindsight) and engaged with a Marauder and a Kodiak, while still keeping up the cloudwall and hiding my Jacks behind it. Hark moved to the Flag and started scoring. I should have sacrificed the 2 Jacks here and feated a Turn later when everything was engaged.

    Turn 3. He threw the engaged Jacks away (forgot I gut Jumpstart) and moved around, but didn't contest. I drop my cloudwall (Big Mistake) and engage everything. But the Jugger doesn't reach and everything else is a bit pillowfisted against trolls. So everything is thrown around and goes KD, but nothing dies. I score again.

    Turn 4. He sees that he can't contest and tries the last second Assasination which succeeds. I forgot to Vent Steam and Repo last round so he could move up and because Orin was out of Range too he could freely cast. Shieldguards did nothing because HE JUST THREW MY OWN JACKS AT ME! Which was funny, but a bit depressing.

    Afterthought:
    Technically I lost but it doesn't feel that way, more like a unsatisfactory Win. While I couldn't hurt him and pretty much nothing died, I just annoyed and blocked him with my Jacks. If I wouldn't have been so gready with Orin for dmg and just stayed within 3" of Harkevich I would have easily won.
    Rager was good, because I just parked him with Harkevich so he always was beefed up. Although he couldn't shieldguard Harkevich would have been dead a lot sooner.

    I think I would keep Ragman, and/or the 2nd beatstick heavy.
    Remember against trolls to use your widows to shoot at the stone guys. Really not much of a better target for them in 75% of the matches.

  29. #149
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    I did, or tried at least, lost 1 before, shot the stone 1 time and then I had only 1 guy left.

  30. #150
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    how does hark, 3 kodiaks, 2 melee jacks, 2 bokurs, orin package deal with una.. can't they just fly around the cloud wall?

  31. #151

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    Yea they can fly around the clouds, but I think Hark is still a good bet. Now I have never played against 2una (no one in my local meta plays Circle), but I think the strength with Hark is that without achieving the charge, even the Scarsfell Griffon is dice minus 8 with the beak, if you can time it right with feat, it goes up to dice minus 11 against every jack in the list. Granted, it probably wouldn't be a problem to get the flank bonus in for the Circle player, but you are looking at maybe 3-4 damage without Harks feat up per beak attack, 1-2 with it up, on average. So, again theorymachining here, I think that denying the charge will allow for a strong counter push from the second line and vent steam attacks because in order to get any substantive damage in on your jacks, they would have to over commit their birds.
    Last edited by GDL_129; 01-09-2017 at 11:15 AM.

  32. #152
    Destroyer of Worlds Voodoogk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDL_129 View Post
    Yea they can fly around the clouds, but I think Hark is still a good bet. Now I have never played against 2una (no one in my local meta plays Circle), but I think the strength with Hark is that without achieving the charge, even the Scarsfell Griffon is dice minus 8 with the beak, if you can time it right with feat, it goes up to dice minus 11 against every jack in the list. Granted, it probably wouldn't be a problem to get the flank bonus in for the Circle player, but you are looking at maybe 3-4 damage without Harks feat up per beak attack, 1-2 with it up, on average. So, again theorymachining here, I think that denying the charge will allow for a strong counter push from the second line and vent steam attacks because in order to get any substantive damage in on your jacks, they would have to over commit their birds.
    2 birds (1 walk and one run into place) can destroy a khador jack. primal+hof+flank means its not even really that hard. under feat it becomes a little less likely.. but 3 birds would do just fine. its gonna boost 3 damage rolls.. thats 3 rolls of 5 dice drop the lowest..you'll probably have one 6 in there so the other 3 dice are all boxes you're marking off (thats a very dead khador jack).

  33. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoogk View Post
    2 birds (1 walk and one run into place) can destroy a khador jack.
    Even during the feat turn most walking birds have a threat of 9.5" only - a single one might have 11.5". Every jack is out-threating them.

    Regarding the cloud wall: I'm mostly playing with terrain and my "cloud" wall is usually about 15-18" wide. Had a massive forest-cloud-forest wall of about 25" last weekend. That was fun. For me at least.

  34. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoogk View Post
    2 birds (1 walk and one run into place) can destroy a khador jack. primal+hof+flank means its not even really that hard. under feat it becomes a little less likely.. but 3 birds would do just fine. its gonna boost 3 damage rolls.. thats 3 rolls of 5 dice drop the lowest..you'll probably have one 6 in there so the other 3 dice are all boxes you're marking off (thats a very dead khador jack).
    Yep, good points all around. Like I said, I haven't played against 2una at all so those were just the 2 cents of a relatively inexperienced player. IMO I think that Hark is still one of our best plays into her specifically and Circle in general. Hopefully someone more experienced can illuminate us as to the specifics of that match up.

    Thanks for the tip!

  35. #155
    Destroyer of Worlds Voodoogk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDL_129 View Post
    Yep, good points all around. Like I said, I haven't played against 2una at all so those were just the 2 cents of a relatively inexperienced player. IMO I think that Hark is still one of our best plays into her specifically and Circle in general. Hopefully someone more experienced can illuminate us as to the specifics of that match up.

    Thanks for the tip!
    I think the problem is everyone sees pow12 and thinks no big deal, and its actually a pow14 with hof. So really a pow16.. and its got flank so its a pow 16 weaponmaster.. which is one of our favorite homicidally maniacal warcasters output.

  36. #156
    Warrior Druzhina_Dropout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by @Kriegsspiele View Post
    I'm sorry, but you can only boost Orin's initial shot - not the leaps.
    Do you have a reference for that? Nothing on Orin's card says unboostable, like it does with say, laddermore. And I'm pretty sure in mk2 warcaster spells like chain lightning could boost the leaps, haven't seen any change since then.

  37. #157

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    I just won my first game vs Una as Harkevich and it is exactly as Kriegspiele says. With 3 Kodiaks, just just wait behind the cloud wall, so the opponent has to run engage and feat, you counter feat and ARM23 is really good against those birds.

    Just a word of warning against forest-cloud wall. Birds do see through forests. It cost me one Kodiak today.

  38. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by Druzhina_Dropout View Post
    Do you have a reference for that? Nothing on Orin's card says unboostable, like it does with say, laddermore. And I'm pretty sure in mk2 warcaster spells like chain lightning could boost the leaps, haven't seen any change since then.
    This. It's surprising, but the Orin leaps are boostable.

  39. #159

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    I tried it at WTC and judge said not boostable. The leaps are probably not counted as attacks.

  40. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andor View Post
    I tried it at WTC and judge said not boostable. The leaps are probably not counted as attacks.
    They aren't, but just because they aren't attacks doesn't necessarily mean they aren't boostable. Like the Kodiaks vent steam. Not an attack, but still boostable.

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