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  1. #921

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    If you don't want to play shooting thats fine. However thats not a valid reason for the faction to not have a solid shooting game. Its better to have those options and not need them than to need those options and not have them. Most of Mk2 our shooting was hot garbage and we suffered as a faction because of it.
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  2. #922

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybrid View Post
    If you don't want to play shooting thats fine. However thats not a valid reason for the faction to not have a solid shooting game. Its better to have those options and not need them than to need those options and not have them. Most of Mk2 our shooting was hot garbage and we suffered as a faction because of it.
    Of course, shooting options are great. But it being the focus of Skorne's first theme force is not something I am fond of.
    A beast or cataphract theme force would have been more "obvious". Or if you want it to be more niche, then a construct theme list.
    Not a shooting theme list where the support it is intended to have is not even on the public release schedule yet.

  3. #923
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    Currently, the two thing we would have used best would be a ferox theme list and a beast theme list. A venator theme list can put one of our theme from playable to good.

    I think it's good to have a theme list to improve a playable but minor list. The question being whether the theme list will actually help, or if it will be too restrictive.

  4. #924
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    Or a Praetorian theme force. Or a Paingivers+Minions+Beasts theme force. Venators are honestly a weird choice.

  5. #925

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    I'm still hoping that the Winds of Death theme force is not one of the two theme force we're gonna get from the book.

  6. #926

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    I was unexcited to hear our theme force is Venators. Hardly anyone has these models. They have very little synergies with other faction models. Slingers are very bad. I've tried using them many times in MKIII. Reivers are good, but they can't ignore any antishooting tech, and there's nothing that can let them do so. Terrain, Stealth, and clouds have a high chance of nullifying Reivers.

    The Dakaar seems like a big step in the right direction, but he's at least several months away from release and it could be much, much longer than that.

    I can't see theme force benefits making up the deficiencies in our Venator models, not by a longshot. If the theme has light restrictions on model selection, or if it grants true sight, then it might sometimes see the light of day. If I can bring Reivers and a Reiver Cannon to satisfy the theme restrictions, and still bring mostly whatever else I want, then, sure why not enjoy some benefits. However, you can't expect such a theme to pull people towards it. Benefits will have to be drastic for the theme to have any hope of being used seriously since there's just nothing in the faction that comes close to making them sing besides a Hexy2 and small group of debuffing generalist warlocks.

    In every case I can think of, it's far more effective to bring Brigands than any Venator unit.
    Last edited by Wise Blood; 01-11-2017 at 06:23 AM.

  7. #927
    Destroyer of Worlds wolf9416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ereshkigal View Post
    I personally wanted something with smashing face potential... if i wanted guns i would have played Cygnar (the faction i dislike the most, guess why).
    I'm starting to fear that in the skorne rework we'll get better guns instead of better melee.
    I would say that hopefully, if the errata is done correctly, the goal is that we won't NEED a theme force in order to do what is expected of Skorne (Punch things really hard with big stompy elephants). Of course nothing can be sure until we see the theme and the eratta, but the theme force may be designed to give more options to Skorne, being a primarily melee focused army, and not be an indication that the standard lists are also going to be forced into a ranged game.
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  8. #928
    Destroyer of Worlds Bully Bully Mahu's Avatar
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    Honestly, the theme will be worth it if it brings passive buffs to those units.

    Rules like hunter, true sight, etc. Would be nice.

    On the flip side, free weapon crews could also be good.

    The problem with the Venator theme is simply opportunity costs. Reivers would be great if they cost less, or had a few extra rules. Slingers were good in MK2 and only suffer in MK3 because of infantry hate.

    Skorne shooting units are in a weird place because they don't have build in anti shooting tech, even in faction readily available, and get the least caster support for effectiveness then any other faction. So in a straight gun battle, they lose, against multi purpose units like Idrians, or Brigands, they lose. Look at Circle Reeves, or Blood Trackers, or Nyss, or burrowers, or anything of the sort and compare them to Skorne ranged options and they fall laughably short.

    The counter argument is, well, look at the design of those factions versus Skorne. And I go, sure, lets. Why does Circle, a alpha heavy, movement shenanigans, stealth and tree loving faction get sentry stone, affliction reeves, armor tanking on top of that? If Skorne is about the ranged denial and counter punch, shouldn't they have priority of shooting over a melee alpha faction? Maybe not a lot of stealth or LOS negation, but I think spells like Mortality, Affliction, etc, should have found its way to us first.

    What is the fear of Skorne, design wise? I have always wondered this. It is OK, to listen to Legion players who have good to great ranged options about their damage output on their heavies but not OK to listen to Skorne players who watch their titans get alphaed about good ranged options to force engagement?

    Sorry, a little ranty this morning, but I feel like Skorne is just skipped and way to cautious on design, and has been so since all of MK2. I don't think it would be the worse thing in the world for SKorne to get a Wurmwood level list and have it run rampant for 6 months, at least they tested the limits of what they can do rather then always be one step behind the power curve like they have been literally their entire existence.

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  9. #929
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    My dream is arcane accuracy on all warrior, free UA, solo, or weapon crew per 20 points of venator. That would do the trick ; while true sight would obviously be better, skorne ranged supprot is already pretty good, and there is only so much that cloud wall can do when you move up to 8' a turn.

  10. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bully Bully Mahu View Post
    I don't think it would be the worse thing in the world for SKorne to get a Wurmwood level list and have it run rampant for 6 months, at least they tested the limits of what they can do rather then always be one step behind the power curve like they have been literally their entire existence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PPS_Hungerford View Post
    Nyss are known to raid pillow factories all across the northern border of Khador. It's super weird and super annoying for the rural folk just trying to get a comfortable night's sleep.
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  11. #931
    Destroyer of Worlds legionaires's Avatar
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    I didn't think you could get that worked up Mahu. That sounded more like something I would type.
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  12. #932
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    Venators? Bwuh. Admittedly it gives them an identity in a way they haven't had in the past. But it was fifth place among the themes I expected:
    * Beasts
    * Paingivers and Minions
    * Praetorians
    * Cataphracts

    With it being possible to roll the beast theme up with the Paingivers and Venators with the Praetorians as in the Army of the Western Reaches or whatever it was called.

    But Venators and wind sounds interesting. I suspect they picked it because Venators will be changing the least in the errata as they more or less work for what they do.

  13. #933
    Destroyer of Worlds Darque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bully Bully Mahu View Post
    Honestly, the theme will be worth it if it brings passive buffs to those units.

    Rules like hunter, true sight, etc. Would be nice.

    On the flip side, free weapon crews could also be good.

    The problem with the Venator theme is simply opportunity costs. Reivers would be great if they cost less, or had a few extra rules. Slingers were good in MK2 and only suffer in MK3 because of infantry hate.

    Skorne shooting units are in a weird place because they don't have build in anti shooting tech, even in faction readily available, and get the least caster support for effectiveness then any other faction. So in a straight gun battle, they lose, against multi purpose units like Idrians, or Brigands, they lose. Look at Circle Reeves, or Blood Trackers, or Nyss, or burrowers, or anything of the sort and compare them to Skorne ranged options and they fall laughably short.

    The counter argument is, well, look at the design of those factions versus Skorne. And I go, sure, lets. Why does Circle, a alpha heavy, movement shenanigans, stealth and tree loving faction get sentry stone, affliction reeves, armor tanking on top of that? If Skorne is about the ranged denial and counter punch, shouldn't they have priority of shooting over a melee alpha faction? Maybe not a lot of stealth or LOS negation, but I think spells like Mortality, Affliction, etc, should have found its way to us first.

    What is the fear of Skorne, design wise? I have always wondered this. It is OK, to listen to Legion players who have good to great ranged options about their damage output on their heavies but not OK to listen to Skorne players who watch their titans get alphaed about good ranged options to force engagement?

    Sorry, a little ranty this morning, but I feel like Skorne is just skipped and way to cautious on design, and has been so since all of MK2. I don't think it would be the worse thing in the world for SKorne to get a Wurmwood level list and have it run rampant for 6 months, at least they tested the limits of what they can do rather then always be one step behind the power curve like they have been literally their entire existence.
    Not gonna lie, this gives voice to a lot of people's fears.
    Here's to hoping we are afraid of nothing.
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  14. #934

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    I think I kinda understand why the venators were chosen for this theme force though. The theme force books are supposed to have new models in them that tie into the theme(s) in the book so I think that rules out something like Immortals and potentially even Cataphracts as if we have releases coming that slot into those themes they will want to put those in the books. If you think about what parts of our army that
    A) already has enough released that a theme force could work and
    B) is not likley to see new releases in that theme for a while
    the selection of what COULD be a theme force dwindles and hopefully we got venators because option 1 and 2 were already spoken for, for our command book. Unfortunately for most of us as Skorne players given the way Mk3 has gone this isn't exactly the encouraging sign we wanted to see. But this wasn't chosen from the point of view of Venators being the most important thing in Skorne, more that its all they had left that might work. I wouldn't personally take this as any indication of what the errata will contain or focus on.

    That being said I do think it was a bit foolish on PPs part to release the theme forces before the Skorne errata but I recognize my own bias in that.
    Last edited by Zerodaimaru; 01-11-2017 at 09:17 AM. Reason: sign not sing

  15. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Blood View Post
    If I can bring Reivers and a Reiver Cannon to satisfy the theme restrictions, and still bring mostly whatever else I want, then, sure why not enjoy some benefits. However, you can't expect such a theme to pull people towards it.
    That's not how theme forces work anymore. It's not going to be "bring reivers and a reiver cannon and get +2 inches deployment zone" or whatever. It's going to be "for every 30 points of venator models, add a free solo or weapon crew" (probably pretty close to that, frankly), and "all warbeasts gain hunter", and "one unit of venator catapult crew gains ambush". May not actually grant ambush, though 75% of theme forces seem to grant it so far.

    Also hopefully it's stronger than what I just said because that would be a really weak list.

  16. #936
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    @sheer_falacy : there is already a theme force that give +2 inche deployment zone, just for following the theme force restriction. I dunno how Wise blood idea is unrealistic ; his example seem pretty similar to Band of Heroes.

  17. #937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerodaimaru View Post
    A) already has enough released that a theme force could work and
    B) is not likley to see new releases in that theme for a while
    Seems to me the Venator Dakar hits both these points and would be a reason to not release the theme right now. But it is hard to speculate with limited data.

  18. #938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohlmann View Post
    @sheer_falacy : there is already a theme force that give +2 inche deployment zone, just for following the theme force restriction. I dunno how Wise blood idea is unrealistic ; his example seem pretty similar to Band of Heroes.
    But the theme force restriction is "use only these models/units". It doesn't require you bring anything specific. You don't get those 2 inches for what you did bring, you get it for what you didn't bring.

    So if I can "still bring mostly whatever else I want", then I could just bring whatever I want and skip the venators. But of course I won't be able to, because it'll only allow venator models/units and you'll have nothing to put in zones.

  19. #939

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    From Mr Wood in the FB group (incase anyone isn't a member there already):
    "I said expect the Errata after the Theme forces. We have said "a couple weeks," after Theme Forces. The goal is to make sure everything is set properly to go out. Minor edit for clarity there"

    Seems like we are a little farther out then we thought.

  20. #940

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerodaimaru View Post
    From Mr Wood in the FB group (incase anyone isn't a member there already):
    "I said expect the Errata after the Theme forces. We have said "a couple weeks," after Theme Forces. The goal is to make sure everything is set properly to go out. Minor edit for clarity there"

    Seems like we are a little farther out then we thought.
    My hopeless nihilistic practicality serves me true yet again. I knew better than to expect it before the last week of the month, and I'm not going to be surprised if it goes a couple weeks further. My buddy needs all the time he can get to ruthlessly beat me down every game, every week, like he has so far for the entirety of MKIII

  21. #941

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    Quote Originally Posted by granor View Post
    Seems to me the Venator Dakar hits both these points and would be a reason to not release the theme right now. But it is hard to speculate with limited data.
    Maybe released was the wrong choice of words, revealed might have been a better choice. If the Dakar is our only planned venator themed model for a while then it makes no sense to make a venator theme force book as there would be no new models to add to it. Which means it either has to go in our command book or be released here (or not at all). And while our first theme being a venator theme isn't great it also makes sense to me if we are getting 3 theme forces between this digital release and our book. If we are one of the factions whose theme is coming straight out of our command book then PP really has lost all touch with Skorne but I don't think that's the case (at least not yet).

  22. #942
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zerodaimaru View Post
    Maybe released was the wrong choice of words, revealed might have been a better choice. If the Dakar is our only planned venator themed model for a while then it makes no sense to make a venator theme force book as there would be no new models to add to it. Which means it either has to go in our command book or be released here (or not at all). And while our first theme being a venator theme isn't great it also makes sense to me if we are getting 3 theme forces between this digital release and our book. If we are one of the factions whose theme is coming straight out of our command book then PP really has lost all touch with Skorne but I don't think that's the case (at least not yet).
    Yea I missed that aspect of your point. It makes more sense now.

  23. #943
    Destroyer of Worlds Bully Bully Mahu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legionaires View Post
    I didn't think you could get that worked up Mahu. That sounded more like something I would type.
    I am usually extremely level headed on these subjects, but I have been pretty consistent on this point. I was also making the same arguments about Ret back in the day and as soon as they shifted away from their self imposed design limitations, the faction was allowed to become one of the better designed factions of MK3. I love where Ret is now, so I know the same can be done for Skorne.

    I honestly feel like they have unfairly punished Skorne for their access to as many options as they have, not realizing that because there is an upper limit on points and you can only ever have 2 or 3 lists, having a faction with access to everything, but only can focus on a few things have really held the faction back. Not to mention MK2 skornergy (like actual Skornergy, not "options").

    We did get a good amount of caster buffs, and now that they are bringing back some of the faction advantages from MK2, I think we will likely be in the best place we have ever been in the history of the faction. How that shakes up in the broader competitive meta has yet to be seen.

    Who knows? Maybe they made Morghoul2 straight busted again, and we will have our turn at the top.

    Personally, I would love for us to be at the same level as Ret, Menoth, and Khador. Let the highs and lows of the other factions be worked out in dynamic updates. As long as I have a sufficiently deep bench and a fairly competitive faction, I would be happy.

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  24. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Blood View Post
    I was unexcited to hear our theme force is Venators. Hardly anyone has these models. They have very little synergies with other faction models. Slingers are very bad. I've tried using them many times in MKIII. Reivers are good, but they can't ignore any antishooting tech, and there's nothing that can let them do so. Terrain, Stealth, and clouds have a high chance of nullifying Reivers.

    The Dakaar seems like a big step in the right direction, but he's at least several months away from release and it could be much, much longer than that.

    I can't see theme force benefits making up the deficiencies in our Venator models, not by a longshot. If the theme has light restrictions on model selection, or if it grants true sight, then it might sometimes see the light of day. If I can bring Reivers and a Reiver Cannon to satisfy the theme restrictions, and still bring mostly whatever else I want, then, sure why not enjoy some benefits. However, you can't expect such a theme to pull people towards it. Benefits will have to be drastic for the theme to have any hope of being used seriously since there's just nothing in the faction that comes close to making them sing besides a Hexy2 and small group of debuffing generalist warlocks.

    In every case I can think of, it's far more effective to bring Brigands than any Venator unit.
    Unhappy about ranged theme force.

    "hardly anyone has these models" I think that is the reason right there $$$$$$

  25. #945
    Destroyer of Worlds Sardonic Artery's Avatar
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    Now that the Skorne errata is still 2-3 weeks out, I'm going to go wander the streets aimlessly.
    In honor of the Skorne errata, PP should just make the forums one big salt shaker.

  26. #946
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonic Artery View Post
    Now that the Skorne errata is still 2-3 weeks out, I'm going to go wander the streets aimlessly.
    Got a link to that news?
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  27. #947

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zzapper View Post
    Got a link to that news?
    I posted a quote from Jackson Wood earlier in this thread from the facebook group.

  28. #948
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    I suspect they caught a problem recently.

  29. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohlmann View Post
    I suspect they caught a problem recently.
    I suspect they still don't have their **** together.

  30. #950
    Destroyer of Worlds Bully Bully Mahu's Avatar
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    Pagani has also stated many times on Facebook that they are on track for "Mid-January".

    I suspect that it is mired in Warroom and formatting implementation, which evidently takes more time then you would think.

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  31. #951
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    I think we're probably still two weeks away. I'd be surprised if it hits next week, and shocked if we get it this week.

    A little teaser or spoiler would be nice though. I'd like to know what that one change to the Hydra was, so I can decide if I want to pick one up.
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  32. #952
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    Being quite pedantic I see 'mid January ' as 10th to 20th of the month.

    Still, I am hopeful that Pagini''s real world experience of the game at a competitive level will inform the changes to Skorne in a positive way.
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  33. #953
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    I hope so. The delay is sort-of a good news for that : the timing of his arrival prevented hum to be behind most of the change, and if he had stepped in and strengthened the errata, I would expect that to delay it.

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    Hold your butts, folks. There is some confusion obvs, but it's clear they're putting as much time in as they can, both balancing things and making sure it works right out the gate (think Troll themes).

  35. #955
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    Is that some kind of colloquialism?
    Last edited by Souleater; 01-11-2017 at 01:20 PM.
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  36. #956
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    I doubt the errata will change by now, i think it's in the stage of catching potential spelling mistakes, confusing words, formatting and creating the pdfs (that last part takes more time than you can imagine).
    I'm a skorne player, as such i'm unwilling to try different models within my faction and i'm stuck at mk2 list building by definition.

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  37. #957
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ereshkigal View Post
    I doubt the errata will change by now, i think it's in the stage of catching potential spelling mistakes, confusing words, formatting and creating the pdfs (that last part takes more time than you can imagine).
    I don't know about that, I can imagine quite a lot of time.
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  38. #958
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    Quote Originally Posted by wahoti View Post
    Unhappy about ranged theme force.

    "hardly anyone has these models" I think that is the reason right there $$$$$$
    To date, when I want a ranged game, I grab Sentinels, Cannoneers, Shamans, Drakes, a Mammoth, and Efaarit Scouts with either Hexy2, Rasheth, or the Rhino Rider. Aside from a full CRA under mini-feat, I never get much use out of Reivers, and Slingers are mostly soul batteries for a Zaal in my view.

  39. #959
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    It's probably just warroom acting up again. The changes were locked in almost a month ago and while I believe that editing takes time, more than a month to format a PDF sound like a whole lot.

  40. #960
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    It's also possible that the venators are going to get buffed by the errata. This would mean we will get a theme force that seems really bad for a week or two until the errata comes out. Which doesn't seem like an ideal way to release a theme force, frankly.

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