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  1. #1
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Default The Vet versus the Youngling

    You are playing a new, or at least much less experienced player. What is your approach and your metrics/measures of success?

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    Destroyer of Worlds DanX's Avatar
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    Having fun games where I understood what was happening (may be slightly before it happened like a Jedi?)

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    I've helped a couple of people get started recently.

    I give them a super-solid list to play with tons of angles. I take a slightly inferior list myself. Throughout the game I point out some of the angles and I hold back on my own to always let them stay one step ahead.

    The idea is to get them interested and have them experience the complexity and all the options which make this game so much fun. Works well so far
    Courage of Caspia, Cygnar Blog <- 29.01.2017 - Norwegian Masters Win (Stryker3/Nemo3)

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    Warrior El-Ahrairah's Avatar
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    When I first started my metric for success was not messing up a rule during the game. I was lucky enough to have a regular opponent who started at exactly the same time I did, though hes more familiar with war games in general. Outside of that competent list building. being able to create a list with a clear purpose. It doesn't have to be a good list but making my own list where I know why each model is there was a big deal for me.
    Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.

  5. #5
    Destroyer of Worlds
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    You are playing a new, or at least much less experienced player. What is your approach and your metrics/measures of success?
    That depends more on the youngling than on me. Some might ask for a teaching game, in which case it could be blatant pointers and takebacks galore. Others may prefer a more standard game, in which case I'll offer pointers only when asked or possibly when I think they're about to make a terrible mistake. I'll avoid possible gotchas both during the game ("you remember what my feat does, right?") and on list level (no lists that employ specific stratagems you have to know are coming in order to be able to counter them at all) either way though. My list won't necessarily be suboptimal, but it won't be something that requires the right tech to play into well at least.

    Metric for success: if my opponent and myself had fun and they'd like a rematch, it was a success.

  6. #6
    Destroyer of Worlds RandomThoughts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olannon View Post
    I've helped a couple of people get started recently.

    I give them a super-solid list to play with tons of angles. I take a slightly inferior list myself. Throughout the game I point out some of the angles and I hold back on my own to always let them stay one step ahead.

    The idea is to get them interested and have them experience the complexity and all the options which make this game so much fun. Works well so far
    Pretty much this!

    "As I often say, variety is the spice of wargaming" (Cyel)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olannon View Post
    I've helped a couple of people get started recently.

    I give them a super-solid list to play with tons of angles. I take a slightly inferior list myself. Throughout the game I point out some of the angles and I hold back on my own to always let them stay one step ahead.

    The idea is to get them interested and have them experience the complexity and all the options which make this game so much fun. Works well so far
    This is my method.

    My measure of success if if the youngling wants to play again.

  8. #8
    Destroyer of Worlds Malkav13's Avatar
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    I let them play the game with a few pointers. Then, there comes a point where I usually say "If you do this, this and this, you can win this turn."
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Mar 27 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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  9. #9
    Destroyer of Worlds Lanz's Avatar
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    I might hold a few punches. Maybe.
    "If at first you don't succeed, label it version 1.0."


  10. #10
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    I think it depends on how new the player is. There's a huge difference between walking someone through a demo game, or their first "real game" with their brand-new army, and playing against the "new" guy who's been in every week for a couple months and is approaching double-digits in terms of games played.

    Yes, you should never unload everything you have on a new player, but you can slowly take the gloves off as the player's experience grows. My attitude with this game is that until you know what you're doing, you lose. A lot. After a new player has a handful of games, and shows that they understand what's going on, you can start showing them how the game really works.

    At some point, going easy and not going all out just means that they won't know that those tricks exist. If you're playing with your kids (or younger siblings) that may be okay. If you're trying to teach someone to play, that eventually hurts them.

    Give a new player a few easy games to get a grasp of the system, their models, scenarios, terrain, and all that stuff. Then you can start showing them advanced techniques.
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  11. #11
    Destroyer of Worlds Cannibalbob's Avatar
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    I try to crush their soul, because you don't do the younger generation any good by coddling them. The world is a harsh place and the sooner they learn that the better.

  12. #12
    Annihilator E2lio2tR's Avatar
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    Depending on how new to the game they are. If they are new as in just got into the game & have just the BB and a unit. I build something off of my BB and add something to equal points. I then start showing them the tricks of their army as we play and why I am doing what I am doing with my stuff. Help them see the different angles they can take to get the win.
    If they are new but have a full army I do the same but I also ask them what they are having issues with and help them find ways to beat it or work around it.
    If they are past that I ask them do they want a full on game or do they want help some where? This help will usually be explaining how my army works, things they may be missing, a few more take backs then normal, stuff like that. Some players really want the all out no holds bar stuff of play to learn off of. If that is what they want then that is what I do. However, I then show them how they could have stopped/prevented what happens.

    For every "negative" thing you tell them, make sure you express a positive. As vets we are here to help build up the new players confidence & help improve their skills. No one wants to play a game when all you do is get beaten down and no one helps fix your mistakes and improve.
    Things like "Your target prioritization needs a bit of work" should be expressed as "You need a little help with picking targets. Let me show you what I mean" then walk them through how to select the right target at the right moment. It is better to help them understand what to do then to expect them to do it all on their own.

    Menoth may have your soul,
    Cryx your corpse,
    But your life and loyalty,
    That belongs to Khador.

  13. #13
    Conqueror
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    Demo game: Battlegroup only and you let him win voluntarily (unless you have crazy dice and just can't help it).
    New player couple of first game: Don't go all out, don't do the trickiest of trick, but don't give auto-win.
    After a couple of game: Full blown warrior mode activated, and I bring an Apache helicopter. But I would still nicely point out stuff, answer his/her questions and if he's interested, tell what he could have done differently (if he loses).

    Although, there is one exception... If there is shiny things in play, such as a PP official medal, or league patch, ya better ste'up you' game boyzz, 'coz me luve my shiny thingz.

  14. #14
    Destroyer of Worlds MaelstromX29's Avatar
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    I start 'em off like I was building a house. You need them to understand and have a solid foundation, but first they need to have the aspiration as to what might be an ideal end result. Find out what models they like the look of, talk to them about the general overarching strategies and themes of how that army plays. If they like the concept and can get excited about the themes, then I play a battle box game with them. Start them with low model count and models that do not have tons of rules or complexities. They need the foundation of the rules to know if they will enjoy the game and remember things correctly. Then I move them toward more control and options, still small points.

    Take backs are inevitable, and I won't play mercilessly, but I won't hand them the game either by playing dumb. I will try to maximize the basics and show how certain elements work repeatedly, like charging, shooting, facing, and protecting my leader (and make sure to mention the reasons behind all my movements and choices so they keep that in mind when their turn is up).

  15. #15
    Destroyer of Worlds SnarlyYow's Avatar
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    Depends how new.

    For super new players, like a month in, generally:

    Keep the game moving.
    Frequently ask: "Is that what you want to do?" when they're about to make a bad choice.
    Keep the game moving.
    Explain everything. Read your spells verbatim when you cast them.
    Keep the game moving.
    Explain all secondary effects, explain icons, make them remember "critical disruption/crit fire/etc." Don't let rules slip by because they forgot they exist.
    Keep the game moving.
    If they have abilities to exploit, help them exploit them. Show them how to exploit electro-leaps or AOEs, help them choose appropriate targets.
    Keep the game moving.
    Don't be afraid to lose. Show them how to win.
    Keep the game moving.
    Put a scenario on the table. Show them how to exploit it.
    Keep the game moving.
    Show them their army's strengths (threat range, armor debuffs, ranged attacks, etc.) Tell them how their army out threats your army if it does, or how to take it on the chin.
    Keep the game moving.
    The game is good.
    The B13 are fine
    Listen to the Storm Chamber

  16. #16
    Annihilator Sykes7710's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnarlyYow View Post
    Depends how new.

    For super new players, like a month in, generally:

    Keep the game moving.
    Frequently ask: "Is that what you want to do?" when they're about to make a bad choice.
    Keep the game moving.
    Explain everything. Read your spells verbatim when you cast them.
    Keep the game moving.
    Explain all secondary effects, explain icons, make them remember "critical disruption/crit fire/etc." Don't let rules slip by because they forgot they exist.
    Keep the game moving.
    If they have abilities to exploit, help them exploit them. Show them how to exploit electro-leaps or AOEs, help them choose appropriate targets.
    Keep the game moving.
    Don't be afraid to lose. Show them how to win.
    Keep the game moving.
    Put a scenario on the table. Show them how to exploit it.
    Keep the game moving.
    Show them their army's strengths (threat range, armor debuffs, ranged attacks, etc.) Tell them how their army out threats your army if it does, or how to take it on the chin.
    Keep the game moving.
    I would actually negate...basically all of these points.

    The best thing you can possibly do for a new player is play the game. Don't try to teach 'correct' play unless you're specifically asked. Strategic advice (is that what you want to do?) has to be built on a foundation, which is in turn built by...doing stuff.

    Play small games. Play your part quickly. Explain what you're doing when you're asked. Be very clear about the outcomes of your actions. The best case is the spell Earthquake.

    What everyone wants to do is say "be careful how you position I have this spell which has this effect which is AOE in this way and if you clump up then your units will have this effect and my units will get this benefit when I attack you". This isn't how you teach people stuff. Instead, when you do cast Earthquake, pay for the spell, roll to hit, go through all the motions. If you knock something do say 'Okay, he's knocked down.'

    The other player will ask you 'why? what does that mean?'- deal with those points briefly. Don't worry about things like shaking right now. Why? Because that's going to come up organically. 'Okay, I'm knocked down. How can I get up?'

    The key is to make the task (playing the game) as genuine (as much like actually playing the game) as possible. Talk about (randomly) shaking effects when it's time to...shake effects. This aids retention but it also just contextualizes everything which is 100% the key in teaching.

    A lot of quick games with mistakes made works the best every time. People know to ask for the explanation they need. Tactical advice is almost worthless to someone who doesn't have the basics down.

  17. #17
    Destroyer of Worlds DevonV's Avatar
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    I build a sub-par list, answer any questions they have, explain anything they don't seem to understand, and try to win. Throwing the game doesn't teach someone anything, but just crushing them isn't helpful either.

    I own three Mules, and if you asked me if I would buy a fourth, I could not honestly say that I would not ever do so. Do I need to see a doctor?

  18. #18

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    I assume you are referencing players new to the game in general?

    In that case the goal is to keep them playing the game in the long run. Exactly how this is accomplished is on a case by case basis that you need to assess at the time you play them. In general you want to have them leave the game with a sense that they could have/did win with their play. Even if they won (which may be the best case scenario in some cases) you want them to have a sense that they won the game because of the decisions they made not dice or other random factors. There is a concern that you may be teaching them the WRONG way to play but that's okay in the short term. it gives yo the opportunity to create a new challenge later on.

    I've seen a lot of new players get discouraged when they feel like there is nothing they can do and as the veteran it is your responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen. Personally I take awful lists so that I don't accidentally overpower whatever they are playing. You also, usually, don't want them to think that you GAVE them the game intentionally by making bad choices. If you are the type of player who goes all out and says "Well they'll never learn if they don't see the OP stuff" then let me point out that you are correct in intention but wrong in application. Yes they EVENTUALLY need to see it but they don't need to worry about who to fight Wurmwood when they can barely play their own models. Let them come to you when they are ready to take on the OP stuff or propose it and let them agree to it.

    Post game the best advice is don't preach. Create an interactive discussion with them about the game and point out some things they did well AND could have done better. Take it slow and easy, telling them to change their army is usually a bad idea.

    I have also seen some people say they don't want to play new players because, as the vet, they learn nothing. The easiest way to feel like you get something out of the game is to play caster or models that you don't play often, usually because they are considered "bad". Plus practice with positioning/time etc is always good and the new player may pick up on what you are doing and ask questions.

  19. #19

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    Is this an actual kid, or just a gaming newbie? Is this someone I've met in passing for a pick-up game, or a friend to whom I'm pitching the game?

    Kids, new - Assuming they're old enough to play the game as-is, I'll play a small game probably with battle boxes. I have succeeded when they run off with the rulebook** to go make a "better list" after the game. (If they can't play the game as-is, I'll play a super-simple "move-and-roll-dice" game with the models instead. I have succeeded when they want to play again.)

    Kids, a little less new - Show them a crazy combo that takes out their caster in grand fashion. Win or lose, I find kids appreciate it when you show them "the good stuff" after they have a few games under their belt. I have succeeded when they run off with the rulebook** to find their own broken combo after the game.

    Someone I've met in passing - I'll pull out a goofball list and have fun with it. My goal is we're shaking hands and maybe exchanging contact information after the game.

    Friend - Hand them a BB they like or let them cut out & base some color copies to try what they like. Play something like the Stryker 1 battlebox myself. Gift them their preferred BB at the earliest opportunity. My goal is they build and paint the dang thing, and maybe even grow their collection.


    **This is what I'll miss the most about the stats no longer being in books. I have taught many children to scour books for answers via games like this one. They usually learn to like the pictures, stories and such once they're poking around the manual.

  20. #20

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    This thread gives me flashbacks of being a baby new bro and getting clubbed by the local "that guy". The guy didn't know his rules, didn't explain jack squat and took it upon himself to pluck my models off the table as he killed them. It was not a good time. Luckily I'm a grown man used to having to pick myself up and dust myself off. I met some other regulars who actually taught me the rules. I never mind losing, I learned more and had more fun learning from the guys that KNOW the rules.

    I try not to play super new people, I think the first ten games or so should be taught by someone that doesn't have to look up power attack rules haha. But when I play a newish person I make sure I'm not bringing some soul crushing @$$hole list, and I try to point out when they miss things like forgetting to feat or such game changing things.

  21. #21
    Conqueror Yoshi6400's Avatar
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    I crush their soul. Twice.

    First, I use my own army and run them over. Then I give them my army and use their army to run them over.

    ---

    Jokes aside, it's a learning experience. By fighting, swapping lists, and fighting again, a new player can see how their models and the enemy models handle.
    "All monsters in Monster Hunter games are weak to damage. Hit them till they're down!"

  22. #22
    Conqueror
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    I play them for pink slips and then watch them as I microwave their toys.

  23. #23
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnsteel View Post
    This thread gives me flashbacks of being a baby new bro and getting clubbed by the local "that guy".
    In fairness "That guy" is bad for everyone and the meta overall, let alone newer players.
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