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  1. #1

    Default How to make Cryx great again

    Dear fellow Cryxians.

    A new year is soon upon us and i´m using the opportunity to write down some things I hope PP will take into account when they errata the next time.

    For starters I believe we in Cryx have severe problems. Our problems are many and complex and have sadly not been addressed in the first errata IMO.

    The first tell for me is the difficulty in playing attrition. I almost always end up with fewer things on the table than my opponent. I can say this is a problem because one of my strongest aspects as a player have always been the attrition-game.
    The second tell is that I believe I am the only competitive Cryx-player left in Denmark. My fellow Cryxians have all of them jumped ship - and I can understand why.
    The third tell is that Cryx is laughed at, around the world in podcasts and at top levels of the game. I believe they have a valid point and believe we are the worst faction in the game after Skorne (but they don´t count because they get a do-over).

    Enough of the doom sayer things.

    How to make Cryx a competitive faction again? We lack the easy applicable synergies of the other factions - we have the debuffs in our spells but they are not what they used to be. I will not have the time at the moment to go through all of our stuff but I have a few ideas. I hope that you want to help me come up with suggestions that we honestly think PP should implement in the game - here I believe the External balance factions between and internal balance in the factions as the goals of this thread. We don´t want to be OP but would like to be up there with the others.

    I don´t want to look at our casters at this time allthough I believe there a quite a few who deserve a kind look.

    The Sepulcher should be able to collect friendly models within 4" so it can be the gun platform it is. It would also have a great synergi with the Mcboat.
    Heavy Warjacks. A simple buff would be to buff all our non-character heavies armor by one. Spider Jacks would get armor 19. Hell Jacks would get armor 18 - And yes the Inflictor would get armor 20 but I believe that would be a good thing looking at the brute shield guards.

    I don´t have suggestions about our lights. Maybe another Initial Attack for the Scavenger.

    Solos:
    Aiakos, Darragh Wrathe, Necrotechs, Scrap Thralls, Machine Wraiths and War Witch Sirens are fine.
    Pistol wraiths could be 4 points - otherwise they should have a couple of rune shots or the ability to stay incorporeal when only shooting once.
    Gerlak is bad. Tartarus is bad. they need changes or point reductions. Why don´t curse give banes +2 move on charges anymore? I don´t understand. It wasn´t broken.

    Units:
    Mcthralls+brutes+skarloc commander stay as are.
    Necro surgeons is either 3 points OR Mcthralls can fully activate when they are put into play. I like the last change the best and believe that 3 charging Mcthralls from the surgeon would be fair. 3 mat 5 pow 13... It would mean that we would see the Mcboat more.

    Blood Gorgers should have battle driven instead of overtake and unyielding and should cost a bit more. 10-17

    Bane Knights and Bane Warriors should cost 10-16

    Bane Riders should have speed 8 or reach 2".

    Thats it for now. If somebody have the ability to write the suggestions in a more orderly fassion be most welcome.

    Happy Cryxyear.
    Jan

  2. #2
    Destroyer of Worlds
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    You make some valid points. I like Battle Driven on Bloodgorgers, what you say about Bane Riders (though I think both wouldn't be out of the question for 20 points) and you're probably right about the other Banes. Necrosurgeons sound good.

    Save for a few outliers (make our recursion not suck) I believe most things can be fixed by reducing some points. Our base stats are usually slightly worse when comparing them to similar choices in other armies. Presumably this is because we have access to powerful debuffs, but I don't think this always applies for a few reasons. We can't always apply debuffs, be it because of spell immunity or simply because we can't be everywhere at once and also because other factions often also have debuffs or even buffs.
    Mechanithralls for instance should be 5/8, so they can really be quantity over quality. Revenant Crew should probably be another point cheaper.
    Leviathan might be worth 14 points if it stays as is, other non-character heavies lose 1 point, though Seether chassis is probably fine.
    Tartarus would be fine at 6 points, or gain movement back on Curse (doubt this is going to happen)

    Some more threat extenders in faction would be useful as well. Save for Satyxis and Soulhunters we're pretty slow, where we used to be the fastest army. We lost a lot of our threat extensions, so now we rely on things like Clouds or Stealth to deliver our army, but that doesn't always work. Some form of solo or caster to hand out desperate pace, or reverting the Curse change would be nice.
    Last edited by Gamingdevil; 12-29-2016 at 04:26 AM.

  3. #3
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    Hey Jan,

    I wrote a salty, salty piece on Muse on Minis about the bottom 5 factions (http://museonminis.com/klaw-plays-tr...th-business-2/), where most of my saltyness boiled down to what I see as flawed faction design.

    Cryx have always thrived by playing "outside" of the game, basically, a different game than everyone else. For the most part, this used to be infantry spam - my Cryx lists for the 2015 WTC contained exactly 0 points of warjacks above the warjack points my casters brought - leading to a situation where your opponent needed to have an answer for you, or just lose.

    In Mk3, Cryx is being forced to play the same game everyone else does, and ... we're kinda bad at that. Unsurprisingly so, since Cryx were never designed to work like everyone else. With the transition from Mk2 to Mk3, I feel not enough consideration has been given to how Cryx is supposed to work in the new reality.

    I therefore really like your suggestions, but I would even go further. Why can't crab jacks be both durable and have great guns, like Ret jacks? Why does the Slayer chassis need to stay on those measly 26 boxes? Why can't an Iron Lich Overseer be a 'jack buffing option, like an Arcanist or a Vassal? Or, why can't an Iron Lich Overseer oversee McThralls, and give them some bonuses, like more SPD, more MAT, more STR, for example?

    Why can't we spend Warjack points on McThralls, or any Thralls for that matter? Why can't McThralls be lightning attuned (like Frankenstein's monster) and gain some kind of bonus when hit by lightning?

    Tweaking stats is one thing, and I'd obviously take that over no tweaking, but ... I'd love to see some real creativity. If we're supposed to leave Mk2 behind, then let's do so. But let's go all out.


    Klaw

  4. #4

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    I like a lot of the suggestions that you have.

    I think overall, the faction has three problems:

    1) We're a melee centric force, and a mix of true sight ignoring most defensive tech and power-up giving the most benefit for high quality ranged jacks (1 additional focus gives boosted attack and damage rolls, or if the caster has battlegroup buffs, power-up alone may be sufficient) makes closing without losing essential pieces very difficult. Our jacks and higher cost solos (and even most casters) are build around having higher def or stealth. This means that they have lower ARM values, which makes them vulnerable to ranged focused factions (Aiming on top of boosting ranged attacks is pretty powerful and is common, the only damage equivalent is charging, and since it is already a boost, it's rare to add more dice onto that). Our forces are also still relatively expensive points-wise, so they can't really be spammed into effectiveness.

    2) We're built from the ground up as a debuff faction. That means that most model stats tend to be lower overall, or have some downside to limit their area of effect. This also contributes to our vulnerability as a faction. It also means that we don't get many buffs.

    3) To simulate undead hordes (without making the model point costs dirt cheap), we are given several non-caster dependent recursion mechanics. But the recursion simply can't keep up with the kind of casual infantry hate that is out there. To top that off, just about all our recursion methods are pretty limited in some way (range, activation ability, collection amount).

    I think the best solutions (that would be Cryx-y) would be like the new brute thralls: attack enemy strengths with cheap solutions. Brute thralls can now negate high quality, low volume shooting, which most eyeless/true sight falls under. If, like mentioned, we got models that could ground out lightning arcs or 'eat' scathers, then we can start to have trixy solutions and overcome our faction weaknesses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamoron View Post
    Madelyn Corbeau can lend him an intrigue, and unlike Terminus she can actually hang around him without peeing herself since he only causes Terror.

  5. #5
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    Klaw's thinking is similar to mine.

    Cryx needs a thorough re-design from a high-level view, not small tweaks on details.

    As I see it, Cryx has three very large obstacles. The first is that Cryx has no ranged game while at the same time is lacking the delivery mechanisms we enjoyed in MKII. How do you close with an enemy that outguns you, and can pre-measure exactly which infantry are in charge range and thus have bullet-priority?

    The second is that out points are seemingly designed around debuffs, while our opponents are self-sufficient points without buffs taken into account. If you want an easy example, take the awful comparison of mcthralls to wgi (who Lhadof players still think are poor, while we would give our eye-teeth for the trade). This is even worse once you realize that buffs are far stronger than debuffs since there is no roll to hit, you don't need to expose a caster / sacrifice an arcnode, and there is no defense like spell Ward or Orin midwinter vs a buff. Even the claim of a "debuff faction" in MKII was a myth - the poster-children for Cryx power in MKII were Skarre1, Asphyxious2, Goreshade3 and Deneghra1. With the exception of Denny1, these casters relied on not having to ever roll to hit with a spell (Gaspy2 almost never cast Parasite, even though it's the heaviest ARM debug in the game). Only Denny1 actually debuffed and even then she used her feat to ignore the biggest problems of the debuff game. Tldr; Cryx was never a debuff faction when playing the top Cryx casters.

    Lastly, Cryx war jacks need some serious reevaluating. The melee jacks lack 2" reach which severely limits the work they can do, and the gun jacks are very expensive. Simply put, Cryx warjacks trade very poorly with poor PS and awful defensive kits. Combine this with the fact that the warcasters need to cast spells to enable the warjacks, and you get the conclusion that Cryx cannot base a game-plan on Warjacks.

    So yeah, Cryx needs imo a return to the basics, answering the question "what is Cryx supposed to be good at?" Because right now that question has no satisfactory answer.

    -und_ed

  6. #6

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    Und_ed: the only thing I disagree on is Cryx not being a debuff faction. While Skarre1 and Gaspy3 in mk2 were buff casters, they were the only ones. Gaspy2 had more of an attrition/control aspect, but excarnate shenanigans fall purely under debuff to me (requires an enemy to trigger, gives no lasting benefit to the cryx unit). Even shade3 was more assassination/attrition focused, with his feat requiring us to trade our guys for stationary enemies.

    The debuff tax is pretty potent though. Denny1 can pretty easily engineer a 7 point arm swing against an enemy. When pow 9 and 10s threaten heavies, designers need to be very careful what toys we get.

    Otherwise, I agree buffs are more potent due to ease of use and resources expended. I think the answer is to make debuffs even more devastating to reflect how much more work is needed for them, or to make lots of small debuffs prevalent throughout the faction.

    Since having really strong debuffs would probably make opponents cry foul, I think having lots of small debuffs would be better. Mortal fear, entropic force, and dark shroud are good examples, but add even more, and have them on most units.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamoron View Post
    Madelyn Corbeau can lend him an intrigue, and unlike Terminus she can actually hang around him without peeing herself since he only causes Terror.

  7. #7
    Annihilator Ephraim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novaspike View Post
    Otherwise, I agree buffs are more potent due to ease of use and resources expended. I think the answer is to make debuffs even more devastating to reflect how much more work is needed for them, or to make lots of small debuffs prevalent throughout the faction.

    Since having really strong debuffs would probably make opponents cry foul, I think having lots of small debuffs would be better. Mortal fear, entropic force, and dark shroud are good examples, but add even more, and have them on most units.
    Strong debuffs as you describe are also terribly binary. If the spell hits, the target is ruined; if the spell misses, nothing happens. I'd rather see a slew of new debuff spells tuned around a lower price point. Let's say something that would be a modest bargain at a price of 2 and a modest rip-off at a price of 3. That would let the player make the tactical decision of whether or not to boost to hit. It's possible that existing spells are already priced like that. I tend to view spell costs as non-linear, though. The difference between 4 and 3 is greater than the difference between 3 and 2.

    As far as delivery methods, arc nodes are still a thing. It's not absolutely necessary to put the 'caster in harm's way. I agree that it's still a hoop through which we have to jump, though. It would feel better going to the trouble of positioning all the moving parts if the payout were more reliable. I appreciate the notion of high-risk/high-reward but that shouldn't be the operating paradigm of the entire faction.

  8. #8
    Conqueror MiNDmaZing's Avatar
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    In terms of debuffs, most of my enemies buff their infantry and i have to debuff them to normal stats... and then i often do nuts
    My painted Cryx
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  9. #9
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    McThralls: are only over priced, everything else on their card is fine. Reduce to 5/8 or give the entire unit a new rule lIke " sac pawn: FF undead can sac when hit wit range attack".

    Necrosurgeon: forfeit "Combat Action" broke the use of resurrection in Cryx. Remove *Action; Change rule to 3/5 variable like reposition.

    Tartarus: needs +2 movement back on Curse and 6pt. That at least puts him on the table back with banes.

    Warjacks: across the board need a 1-2pt reduction especially the Slayer chassis.

    Undead: this rule only has negative effects, from reduced basic stats to restriction in/on ability. I don't know how to fix this other then remove it like all the psychological effects.

    Rev Crew: There are to many issues here. Ultimately a 7/11 unit that might be played outside a theme list that gives you a free Rengrave.

    Incorporal: rule that's very nice but over-taxed point wise. Clouds do the roughly the same thing but aren't taxed point wise.

    Bloodgorgers and Gerlak: until we get an armor buff+no KD caster, I don't think the blighted trollkins will ever see play... at which point they still might never get played.

    Riders: need 2" reach or 2 movement curse.

  10. #10

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    If the game is going to be about combined arms, there's not much point to buffing infantry units, and especially not much point to buffing anti-infantry infantry units. We already have viable anti-infantry options, it's just that anti-infantry is a less valuable thing now.

    Cryx heavy warjacks desperately need to be better, though. If the design paradigm is that we're supposed to be hard-hitting but fragile, relying on elevated DEF as a crutch, then let's play into that:

    Slayer - Go up to 14/17, STR 11. Stay at 10 pts.

    Reaper - Go up to 14/17, STR 11. Drop to 12 pts.

    Corruptor - Go up to 14/17, STR 11. Drop to 13-14 pts.

    Logic: The Slayer chassis suffers from being pillow-fisted and fragile, which means it doesn't play well into heavy-on-heavy combat. Average warjack ARM is ~19, and average boxes are ~32, so the Slayer is hitting at dice down three on its best attacks with limited attack options if it combo strikes. DEF 13 is totally inadequate now versus anti-infantry guns and an increase in MAT 7 heavies. Boosting STR boosts damage output on the claws without unduly boosting combo strike damage, and 14/17 makes it slightly more likely to get onto a target without being half-dead. The Reaper gets the same treatment - boosting damage output and survivability - but the drop in price makes it more attractive as a Drag-bot. The Corruptor is grossly overpriced for what is essentially a fragile support heavy and should be steeply discounted.


    Seether - Fine as-is.

    Inflictor - Fine as-is. Consider dropping to 12 pts or going to STR 11.

    Logic: These guys are mostly okay, but the addition of Shield Guard to Brutes means the Inflictor may need some adjustment to keep it as a competitive option - either reducing its point cost or buffing its damage output to make it more attractive as a warjack.


    Leviathan - Go to ROF D2+1. Stay at 16 pts. Alternately, go to ROF D3+1 and go to 17 pts.

    Harrower - Drop to 14-15 pts.

    Desecrator - Go to POW 6 on Vivisector (P+S 18). Go to RNG 12 on the gun. Alternately, drop to 12-13 pts.

    Logic: The Leviathan needs some consistency in its shooting to make it attractive relative to quicker melee brawlers and other factions' dedicated shooting heavies. D2+1 means you get two shots out of it at least, but "D2" looks a little weird, so perhaps giving it the Kraken ROF and an increase in price to account for four potential shots is justified. The Harrower is mostly okay but there's less infantry these days, and in particular less single-wound, lightly armored infantry that likes to mass up, so the jack is in need of a points reduction to account for the fact that it has less work to do now. The Desecrator is almost okay, but just kind of mediocre right now, so boosting damage output is the preferred method of getting it back on the table here.


    Kraken - Fine as-is.

    Sepulcher - Collect from friendly models again. Drop to 34 pts.

    Logic: The Kraken is great and one of my favorite colossals. The Sepulcher suffers from its gimmick (McThralls) being pretty awful, and additionally from the mechanics of its gimmick getting nerfed for...reasons? Just make it cheaper and able to collect from friendlies and people will take it as a decent gun platform that's good for about a Brute and a half per game.


    Barathrum - Fine as-is.

    Malice - Go up to 14/17, STR 11. Consider dropping to 14 pts. Alternately, let her come pre-loaded with a soul again.

    Erebus - Go up to STR 11. Drop to 15 pts, consider dropping to 14 pts.

    Nightmare - Go up to 14/18. Drop to 16 pts.

    Deathjack - Drop to 21-22 pts.

    Logic: Barathrum should be the balance point for character jacks here because, while he's best in faction, he's actually just kind of okay when you compare him to the heavy options being played elsewhere. DEF 17 versus shooting on the approach doesn't protect him from shooting, it just changes the kinds of guns that go after him from anti-infantry peashooters to boostable heavy guns, and his ARM 18 and poor damage grid don't like those. He's still a fine melee brawler, though, and is the starting point for where I'm basing the rest of my suggestions. Malice is fine, but needs a home - Drag hasn't been good enough in my games to justify paying 15 points for it, and while Malice is more likely to get a drag off thanks to better harpoon damage, she still doesn't hit all that hard and isn't super exciting if she doesn't have a soul on her. Erebus is kind of mopey because he has poor damage output, low attack volume, and a premium heavy price tag, but he has good defensive stats and auto-freeze on the fists is nice. A little boost to damage and a little reduction in points would make him more of a legitimate anti-heavy threat. Nightmare plays in a lot of the same space Barathrum does, but costs more than Barathrum while (usually) having less of a guarantee of getting into combat than Barathrum. Giving it the Slayer's +1 DEF and lowering its price tag means there's a real decision to be made about what heavy you want to bring. Finally, DJ: the nerf to his healing and to his Spell Slave-ish ability means he's most useful as the hardest hitting, most durable non-colossal in the faction (plus the focus efficiency!). Having the option to cast a nuke should factor into his price tag but I think he's mostly just a superb melee brawler now and should see a reduction in points to account for that.

  11. #11
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    As I see it, Cryx has three very large obstacles. The first is that Cryx has no ranged game while at the same time is lacking the delivery mechanisms we enjoyed in MKII. How do you close with an enemy that outguns you, and can pre-measure exactly which infantry are in charge range and thus have bullet-priority?
    Guns don't really bother me anymore. Raiders beat most guns, Witches beat what Raiders don't and Bane Riders handle sprays. Picking the proper combination is annoying, but with a two list pairing you can make it work. I've also had luck just overwhelming shooting with 20 Carrions. Enough survive to engage to gum up a gunline.

    I have far bigger issues with threat extension (most lists out threat mine once movement tricks are factored in).

    The second is that out points are seemingly designed around debuffs, while our opponents are self-sufficient points without buffs taken into account. If you want an easy example, take the awful comparison of mcthralls to wgi (who Lhadof players still think are poor, while we would give our eye-teeth for the trade). This is even worse once you realize that buffs are far stronger than debuffs since there is no roll to hit, you don't need to expose a caster / sacrifice an arcnode, and there is no defense like spell Ward or Orin midwinter vs a buff. Even the claim of a "debuff faction" in MKII was a myth - the poster-children for Cryx power in MKII were Skarre1, Asphyxious2, Goreshade3 and Deneghra1. With the exception of Denny1, these casters relied on not having to ever roll to hit with a spell (Gaspy2 almost never cast Parasite, even though it's the heaviest ARM debug in the game). Only Denny1 actually debuffed and even then she used her feat to ignore the biggest problems of the debuff game. Tldr; Cryx was never a debuff faction when playing the top Cryx casters.
    Cryx is not about debuffs so much as breaking the rules and your opponents strategies. Ghostly breaks terrain and the stickiness of combat. Drag and machine wraiths move your opponents stuff so your ostensibly slower units can get at it. Hex blast gets rid of your opponent's upkeeps.

    Lastly, Cryx war jacks need some serious reevaluating. The melee jacks lack 2" reach which severely limits the work they can do, and the gun jacks are very expensive. Simply put, Cryx warjacks trade very poorly with poor PS and awful defensive kits. Combine this with the fact that the warcasters need to cast spells to enable the warjacks, and you get the conclusion that Cryx cannot base a game-plan on Warjacks.
    I've had a lot of luck with Levis and bonejacks lately, so I don't think this is 100% true. I'm curious as to how Brutes and helljacks interact after the errata. If I can reliably get an alpha and combo strike with the slayer chassis I'll be happy.

  12. #12
    Destroyer of Worlds Avanice's Avatar
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    Infantry need to be more or less fully rebalanced for points/use. Right now the Satyxis Raider remains the penultimate unit of Cryx more or less unless fighting armor and even then it's just easier to take a debuff caster like denny and ignore their pillow fisting. Undead currently are in a terrible place, because we are priced the same as units but traditionally our stats are not only lower PP itself described us as a swarm faction but our stats are so INTIMATELY WOVEN with the need for debuffs the units cannot do work on their own at all like raiders can.

    Warmachine and Hordes is a game about using quality models and tactics to make a gameplan but most of our units are simply incapable of doing the work our points suggest without heavily relying on the ability for debuffs. Since our vectors for debuffs have been cut at least by 50% (no more cycling upkeeps through Spell slave) we just aren't the threat we use to be with debuffing to even the score for our warjacks and our units

    when dealing with mat 7 armor 20 warjacks our high defense skew warjacks becomes less and less a balancing factor as modifiers to hit are so ubiquitous within factions while a simple -2 defense stat for us is only applicable on a few casters. Even if we did you would barely find a unit that could use it that isn't also needing the armor reduced. So Cryx is now dependent on warjacks to crack armor completely unless we have the luck of fighting a ranged light army then we have the good fortune to at least attempt to bring bane Warriors.

    our warjacks as a whole are decent but nothing like most other factions def 13 sounds appealing till literally most warjacks and beasts now only need 6 or 7 to hit them but those hits tend to cause much heavier damage than others. Especialy since every ranged element in an enemy faction can aim before we can engineer a charge unless playing breakneck fast which comes with it's own ball of wax as regards to tactics and playing scenario.

    In the end Cryx feels like a but of loose ends that aren't connecting and I'm terribly discouraged to play them right now. I've found myself subconciously avoid games with them not because they aren't strong but because the strength I am pulling out of the faction is so over the top that i can't find a nice balance between competitiveness and thematics. I literally sit at list building wondering why i am even contemplating a 27 pt unit when for 19 points I will be more accurate, have better threat, reach versatility, durability to many attack types and Knockdown on crits.

    I wonder why take any crabjack as the only useful ones are 16 points but a seether is 13 and will actually be capable of killing it's points. which is the same cost as Malice or barathum or well on the road to deathjack or two stalkers for a skarre 1 list. This faction right now punishes the player SO HARD for not taking the obvious choices and i don't feel like that when i talk shop with other factions the choice for design space seems to fall nicely into categories that aren't fully hinging on warcaster choices and if that buff/debuff will validate the unit. It instead feels like it simply makes them better in the list for a job they were already designed for.

    For cryx it feels like "This piece,unit, solo or warjack has many weaknesses luckily your caster allows you to have stealth, or luckily you are able to do +3 damage to a single target or unit. or at least we took this darkshroud debuff so MCthralls might be able to take down a warjack now if they can manage some attacks before being deprived of all offensive capability."
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  13. #13
    Zombie Annihilator The Horror's Avatar
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    The ability to play multiple play styles. Cryx is in a very linear place right now. Pure aggression is the name of the game currently. Cryx's game plan is run across the board screaming and pound your face in. Yes we have some casters that support other playstyles, Scaverous supports scenario play, Asphyxious3 can support a brick, ect. What we don't have are units & jacks that really support those styles. Imagine how much sweeter Scaverous would be in Retribution or Circle, or how much sweeter Asphyxious3 would be in Skorne, Trolls, or Khador? Those factions have awesome diversity in their units & Warjacks/warbeasts. Cryx's units are all variations on Charge & smash things or shoot & kill things. Our warjacks are nearly all either beatsticks or arc nodes. There's no variety.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horror View Post
    The ability to play multiple play styles. Cryx is in a very linear place right now. Pure aggression is the name of the game currently. Cryx's game plan is run across the board screaming and pound your face in. Yes we have some casters that support other playstyles, Scaverous supports scenario play, Asphyxious3 can support a brick, ect. What we don't have are units & jacks that really support those styles. Imagine how much sweeter Scaverous would be in Retribution or Circle, or how much sweeter Asphyxious3 would be in Skorne, Trolls, or Khador? Those factions have awesome diversity in their units & Warjacks/warbeasts. Cryx's units are all variations on Charge & smash things or shoot & kill things. Our warjacks are nearly all either beatsticks or arc nodes. There's no variety.
    As Fyanna2 and Una2 spread out through the meta (they're both in mine) you'll see more interesting Cryx builds. Both of their feats make units either invulnerable to melee or def 16/17/18. This brings Biles back to the fore and makes def debuffing casters like Gore3 and eDenny valid choices to play into them. I've also had luck with pistol wraiths as wind wall breakers.

    What I'd really like is the Cryx ranged options see more applications. If I keep running into Amon and Dervishes I can see Ogruns being useful. I'm still experimenting with Gunslingers too.

  15. #15
    Destroyer of Worlds Avanice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horror View Post
    The ability to play multiple play styles. Cryx is in a very linear place right now. Pure aggression is the name of the game currently. Cryx's game plan is run across the board screaming and pound your face in. Yes we have some casters that support other playstyles, Scaverous supports scenario play, Asphyxious3 can support a brick, ect. What we don't have are units & jacks that really support those styles. Imagine how much sweeter Scaverous would be in Retribution or Circle, or how much sweeter Asphyxious3 would be in Skorne, Trolls, or Khador? Those factions have awesome diversity in their units & Warjacks/warbeasts. Cryx's units are all variations on Charge & smash things or shoot & kill things. Our warjacks are nearly all either beatsticks or arc nodes. There's no variety.
    100% on board with this message. I just feel like my head is over a barrel for model variation. Just a faction of mk3 which still focuses on infantry like it was still mk2.
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  16. #16
    Zombie Annihilator The Horror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    As Fyanna2 and Una2 spread out through the meta (they're both in mine) you'll see more interesting Cryx builds. Both of their feats make units either invulnerable to melee or def 16/17/18. This brings Biles back to the fore and makes def debuffing casters like Gore3 and eDenny valid choices to play into them. I've also had luck with pistol wraiths as wind wall breakers.

    What I'd really like is the Cryx ranged options see more applications. If I keep running into Amon and Dervishes I can see Ogruns being useful. I'm still experimenting with Gunslingers too.
    Yea, but its still more of the same. You're just replacing one kill unit with another. We lost so many interesting abilities in the transition to mark3 and gained no interesting abilities in their place. Helldivers lost burrow to become combat pieces, Ripjaws lost Vice Lock to become a combat arc node, Withershadow lost Upkeep removal and Dark Industries in favor of Magic Weapons and Spell Slave which can pretty much only cast Damage nukes. Almost all of our interesting abilities that focus on things other than murdering enemy models disappeared. What I really want are Warjacks, Solos, & units that aren't pure combat pieces, because even our shield guard Warjack is designed to also be a combat beatstick. Khador has beatstick jacks, but they also have jacks like the Demolisher, Devastator, and Kodiak that have jobs other than kill things. Look at Greylord Ternion & Outriders who can do way more than just kill things. Retribution gets things like the Gorgon, Battle Mages, & Artificers. Even Skorne with all its problems got things like the Agonizer, Cyclopes Shamans, & Basilisks. The only nonWarcaster nonHealbot model left in Cryx who's army support isn't tied to murdering things is Darragh Wraithe.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horror View Post
    Yea, but its still more of the same. You're just replacing one kill unit with another. We lost so many interesting abilities in the transition to mark3 and gained no interesting abilities in their place. Helldivers lost burrow to become combat pieces, Ripjaws lost Vice Lock to become a combat arc node, Withershadow lost Upkeep removal and Dark Industries in favor of Magic Weapons and Spell Slave which can pretty much only cast Damage nukes. Almost all of our interesting abilities that focus on things other than murdering enemy models disappeared. What I really want are Warjacks, Solos, & units that aren't pure combat pieces, because even our shield guard Warjack is designed to also be a combat beatstick. Khador has beatstick jacks, but they also have jacks like the Demolisher, Devastator, and Kodiak that have jobs other than kill things. Look at Greylord Ternion & Outriders who can do way more than just kill things. Retribution gets things like the Gorgon, Battle Mages, & Artificers. Even Skorne with all its problems got things like the Agonizer, Cyclopes Shamans, & Basilisks. The only nonWarcaster nonHealbot model left in Cryx who's army support isn't tied to murdering things is Darragh Wraithe.
    We have non-beatstick units but the argument is that they aren't powerful enough. The Corruptor, Wraith Engine, Sepulcher and Necrosurgeon all have support roles but for various reasons they're not especially popular in the meta.

    You're right that various abilities have been removed/nerfed but there's a logic common across factions. Upkeep cycling via spell slave broke the way that upkeeps were supposed to work. Global upkeep removal has been scaled back across the board.

    So that brings up the question, what would be interesting/productive in the constraints of Mk3?

  18. #18

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    15 points is the exact right place for me to justify putting a wraith engine back into my lists, and it's a great support piece.

    If I had the model, running two would be funny, since I think then they would benefit from eachothers ARM buff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamoron View Post
    Madelyn Corbeau can lend him an intrigue, and unlike Terminus she can actually hang around him without peeing herself since he only causes Terror.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms_Tiem View Post
    If the game is going to be about combined arms, there's not much point to buffing infantry units, and especially not much point to buffing anti-infantry infantry units. We already have viable anti-infantry options, it's just that anti-infantry is a less valuable thing now.

    Cryx heavy warjacks desperately need to be better, though. If the design paradigm is that we're supposed to be hard-hitting but fragile, relying on elevated DEF as a crutch, then let's play into that:

    Slayer - Go up to 14/17, STR 11. Stay at 10 pts.

    Reaper - Go up to 14/17, STR 11. Drop to 12 pts.

    Corruptor - Go up to 14/17, STR 11. Drop to 13-14 pts.

    Logic: The Slayer chassis suffers from being pillow-fisted and fragile, which means it doesn't play well into heavy-on-heavy combat. Average warjack ARM is ~19, and average boxes are ~32, so the Slayer is hitting at dice down three on its best attacks with limited attack options if it combo strikes. DEF 13 is totally inadequate now versus anti-infantry guns and an increase in MAT 7 heavies. Boosting STR boosts damage output on the claws without unduly boosting combo strike damage, and 14/17 makes it slightly more likely to get onto a target without being half-dead. The Reaper gets the same treatment - boosting damage output and survivability - but the drop in price makes it more attractive as a Drag-bot. The Corruptor is grossly overpriced for what is essentially a fragile support heavy and should be steeply discounted.


    Seether - Fine as-is.

    Inflictor - Fine as-is. Consider dropping to 12 pts or going to STR 11.

    Logic: These guys are mostly okay, but the addition of Shield Guard to Brutes means the Inflictor may need some adjustment to keep it as a competitive option - either reducing its point cost or buffing its damage output to make it more attractive as a warjack.


    Leviathan - Go to ROF D2+1. Stay at 16 pts. Alternately, go to ROF D3+1 and go to 17 pts.

    Harrower - Drop to 14-15 pts.

    Desecrator - Go to POW 6 on Vivisector (P+S 18). Go to RNG 12 on the gun. Alternately, drop to 12-13 pts.

    Logic: The Leviathan needs some consistency in its shooting to make it attractive relative to quicker melee brawlers and other factions' dedicated shooting heavies. D2+1 means you get two shots out of it at least, but "D2" looks a little weird, so perhaps giving it the Kraken ROF and an increase in price to account for four potential shots is justified. The Harrower is mostly okay but there's less infantry these days, and in particular less single-wound, lightly armored infantry that likes to mass up, so the jack is in need of a points reduction to account for the fact that it has less work to do now. The Desecrator is almost okay, but just kind of mediocre right now, so boosting damage output is the preferred method of getting it back on the table here.


    Kraken - Fine as-is.

    Sepulcher - Collect from friendly models again. Drop to 34 pts.

    Logic: The Kraken is great and one of my favorite colossals. The Sepulcher suffers from its gimmick (McThralls) being pretty awful, and additionally from the mechanics of its gimmick getting nerfed for...reasons? Just make it cheaper and able to collect from friendlies and people will take it as a decent gun platform that's good for about a Brute and a half per game.


    Barathrum - Fine as-is.

    Malice - Go up to 14/17, STR 11. Consider dropping to 14 pts. Alternately, let her come pre-loaded with a soul again.

    Erebus - Go up to STR 11. Drop to 15 pts, consider dropping to 14 pts.

    Nightmare - Go up to 14/18. Drop to 16 pts.

    Deathjack - Drop to 21-22 pts.

    Logic: Barathrum should be the balance point for character jacks here because, while he's best in faction, he's actually just kind of okay when you compare him to the heavy options being played elsewhere. DEF 17 versus shooting on the approach doesn't protect him from shooting, it just changes the kinds of guns that go after him from anti-infantry peashooters to boostable heavy guns, and his ARM 18 and poor damage grid don't like those. He's still a fine melee brawler, though, and is the starting point for where I'm basing the rest of my suggestions. Malice is fine, but needs a home - Drag hasn't been good enough in my games to justify paying 15 points for it, and while Malice is more likely to get a drag off thanks to better harpoon damage, she still doesn't hit all that hard and isn't super exciting if she doesn't have a soul on her. Erebus is kind of mopey because he has poor damage output, low attack volume, and a premium heavy price tag, but he has good defensive stats and auto-freeze on the fists is nice. A little boost to damage and a little reduction in points would make him more of a legitimate anti-heavy threat. Nightmare plays in a lot of the same space Barathrum does, but costs more than Barathrum while (usually) having less of a guarantee of getting into combat than Barathrum. Giving it the Slayer's +1 DEF and lowering its price tag means there's a real decision to be made about what heavy you want to bring. Finally, DJ: the nerf to his healing and to his Spell Slave-ish ability means he's most useful as the hardest hitting, most durable non-colossal in the faction (plus the focus efficiency!). Having the option to cast a nuke should factor into his price tag but I think he's mostly just a superb melee brawler now and should see a reduction in points to account for that.
    This is so on point. Too bad it will never happen.

  20. #20

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    I wonder if giving Cryx the ability to play control would be too much. One would think that the faction of evil undead dudes with the ability to sap the life and vitality out of their enemies would have some serious control chops, but Cryx is really an attrition faction through and through. The grand design vision seems to be that it's an attrition faction that aims to win by killing your dudes faster than you can kill theirs through outnumbering you and making you weaker, but we can't outnumber them with our current points cost structure and we can't weaken them enough to chew through all the armor and boxes we need to chew through before all of our fragile stuff dies.

    Scaverous is almost a control caster, but he needs one more tool in his kit to really get there - something like Stranglehold, perhaps - because right now, he's a solid, tricksy attrition caster.

    Perhaps the real issue holding us back is that the denial element would be too strong with our models that natively hit hard. You'd get to kill all their relevant stuff while keeping them from doing anything about it, and that would be frustrating. But: that's what control casters like Haley 2 already do; Cryx's stuff can't take much of a beating, so you don't have to be able to do very much to start breaking out of a lock; and a lot of elements that might be problematic in conjunction with strong control elements, like recursion (allows ridiculous snowballs) have been nerfed into oblivion. So I don't know. It's just something interesting to think about.

  21. #21

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    I still have hope - we can still get some tasty theme forces.
    Something like 20points in undead models - all undead get +1 movement
    30 points - they get +1 strg
    40 p - gang: another undead
    50p - stealth

    and if they want to stop infantry spam - it could be points spent on jacks.

    Also PP said that we should be fuelled by caster casting spells - so why dont give focus to jack (or another buffs) every time we cast something?


    It is sad I started with Warmachine like 4 months ago and I dont want to spent money on new models, because I would never play them. I have s. raiders, nyss hunters and handful of jack so I can field Denny1 and Gaspy3 (or Coven). And why should I bother to buy anything else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoreyMessman View Post
    I still have hope - we can still get some tasty theme forces.
    Something like 20points in undead models - all undead get +1 movement
    30 points - they get +1 strg
    40 p - gang: another undead
    50p - stealth

    and if they want to stop infantry spam - it could be points spent on jacks.

    Also PP said that we should be fuelled by caster casting spells - so why dont give focus to jack (or another buffs) every time we cast something?


    It is sad I started with Warmachine like 4 months ago and I dont want to spent money on new models, because I would never play them. I have s. raiders, nyss hunters and handful of jack so I can field Denny1 and Gaspy3 (or Coven). And why should I bother to buy anything else?
    The template for theme forces is 20-30 points = free solo/small unit and 4 small abilities.

    The granted abilities are relatively limited. Hyperaggressive, feign death or upkeeps in play.

    What I'd expect with Cryx is something like body and soul for undead and a Revenant/Satyxis theme along the lines of Terminus' old "ghost fleet" list.

    For the undead list casters would get to start with their debuffs in play, units with soul taker gets a soul and a unit gets ambush (since the Skarlock Commander now gives AD).

    For the pirates list you might get something like "crabjacks get advance deployment" and "all units get deathtoll[revenants]".

    Since most of the theme forces are following the get a free solo/unit + 2 special rules + deployment/ambush I think that's what you'll see for Cryx too.

  23. #23
    Destroyer of Worlds Avanice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms_Tiem View Post
    I wonder if giving Cryx the ability to play control would be too much. One would think that the faction of evil undead dudes with the ability to sap the life and vitality out of their enemies would have some serious control chops, but Cryx is really an attrition faction through and through. The grand design vision seems to be that it's an attrition faction that aims to win by killing your dudes faster than you can kill theirs through outnumbering you and making you weaker, but we can't outnumber them with our current points cost structure and we can't weaken them enough to chew through all the armor and boxes we need to chew through before all of our fragile stuff dies.

    Scaverous is almost a control caster, but he needs one more tool in his kit to really get there - something like Stranglehold, perhaps - because right now, he's a solid, tricksy attrition caster.

    Perhaps the real issue holding us back is that the denial element would be too strong with our models that natively hit hard. You'd get to kill all their relevant stuff while keeping them from doing anything about it, and that would be frustrating. But: that's what control casters like Haley 2 already do; Cryx's stuff can't take much of a beating, so you don't have to be able to do very much to start breaking out of a lock; and a lot of elements that might be problematic in conjunction with strong control elements, like recursion (allows ridiculous snowballs) have been nerfed into oblivion. So I don't know. It's just something interesting to think about.
    You don't think TK and Icy grip are enough control? I think anymore and he'd be dangerous close to gaspy2 mk2 territory.

    In truth it would be nice if our soul mechanics were changed to match mk3. We are the only faction that I am aware of that needs to gain our souls from the enemy while protectorate, skorne and convergence get it from themselves which is why that mechanic has left them fairly strong in that territory.

    With almost all of our casters who have Soul Addiction you will notice not many of them are ranking high due to smaller # of infantry. For example I love Terminus, but it's too easy to limit his feat. Not compare him to Denny3 who generates her own and you immediately know which one has more consistency. I'd dare say living models would become a great tool for us if we had the ability to actually capture our own souls especially if we could then use their corpses with necrosurgeons
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avanice View Post
    In truth it would be nice if our soul mechanics were changed to match mk3. We are the only faction that I am aware of that needs to gain our souls from the enemy while protectorate, skorne and convergence get it from themselves which is why that mechanic has left them fairly strong in that territory.
    Skorne, Protectorate, and Convergence alway got their soul from their troops only. Enemy soul collecting is exclusive to Cryx and Gatormen, with a bunch of oddities scattered through factions, of which only Ruin strike me as actually using often that option. Dunno what Mk3 is supposed to do here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    The template for theme forces is 20-30 points = free solo/small unit and 4 small abilities.

    The granted abilities are relatively limited. Hyperaggressive, feign death or upkeeps in play.

    What I'd expect with Cryx is something like body and soul for undead and a Revenant/Satyxis theme along the lines of Terminus' old "ghost fleet" list.

    For the undead list casters would get to start with their debuffs in play, units with soul taker gets a soul and a unit gets ambush (since the Skarlock Commander now gives AD).

    For the pirates list you might get something like "crabjacks get advance deployment" and "all units get deathtoll[revenants]".

    Since most of the theme forces are following the get a free solo/unit + 2 special rules + deployment/ambush I think that's what you'll see for Cryx too.
    Well, free tatarsauce and bane UA would be nice. But it wont fix anything.

    That is what troubles me most post errata - we got buffed, but only for already good models - so no need to try something new (maybe except min warriors+UA)

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohlmann View Post
    Skorne, Protectorate, and Convergence alway got their soul from their troops only. Enemy soul collecting is exclusive to Cryx and Gatormen, with a bunch of oddities scattered through factions, of which only Ruin strike me as actually using often that option. Dunno what Mk3 is supposed to do here.
    in my opinion Cryx is morally loose enough to steal the souls of it's own troops. If they want to make us necromantic power houses like the original Mk3 trailer suggestsion giving us more soul manipulation than other faction since our cash crop went down in stock seems a logical step toward balancing them like every other faction in the game atm. if we can't cycle upkeeps wouldn't it be nice to at least not be dry every round on focus unless you popped a feat like a certain HR we know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avanice View Post
    in my opinion Cryx is morally loose enough to steal the souls of it's own troops. If they want to make us necromantic power houses like the original Mk3 trailer suggestsion giving us more soul manipulation than other faction since our cash crop went down in stock seems a logical step toward balancing them like every other faction in the game atm. if we can't cycle upkeeps wouldn't it be nice to at least not be dry every round on focus unless you popped a feat like a certain HR we know.
    The HR that being said have spell who are somewhat expensive and low-impact compared to Telekinesis or Feast of Worm, and he have a pretty low starting stats, especially focus. That's less visible for him than for Zaal 2, granted, but I still see as a very bad idea to see Scaverous or Asphyxious have 25+ focus to spend in a turn.

    Also, there isn't that much soul in a typical cryx army, and Satyxis already make the other cryx infantry look silly enough. And it make Cryx feel less distinct if they start to cram their cheapest (souled) unit to get soul like two other factions already do. I guess soul collector could start fully provisioned, either baseline or as a theme list benefit, or simply have bigger soul collection area to start with.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avanice View Post
    You don't think TK and Icy grip are enough control? I think anymore and he'd be dangerous close to gaspy2 mk2 territory.
    They're attrition tools. They could be control tools on a control caster, but Scaverous doesn't have any way to legitimately deny or shut down an opponent short of surgically scalpelling out key parts of your opponent's army. Think here of Haley 2, who in addition to TK has:

    Force Field: Denies your opponent lucky AoE drifts.

    Domination: Plays with warjack positioning, keeps your jacks at a safe distance from theirs, puts chip damage on jacks from the attack.

    Time Bomb: Similar to Icy Grip, reduces movement options.

    Feat: Your opponent does nothing of consequence, effectively skipping their turn.

    A true control caster doesn't just let your army kill stuff, because every caster worth playing does that. A true control caster prevents your opponent from doing anything meaningful without having to kill their stuff, and that's where Scavvy falls short. He has a soft control tool in soul-fueled Puppet Master, but I've found that 1) it's rare for him to have enough souls for it to be a really useful ability, 2) it's often best used for your own models, and 3) if used on enemy models, it's not denial per se, it's just a minor inconvenience because your opponent might get unlucky on the second roll (but then again, they might be luckier). His whole kit is the bog-standard Cryx "Kill Stuff Harder" kit, he's just unusually tricksy about it.

  29. #29
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    There are many good things in Cryx, but I do still see some weaker points in the models we have now. This isn't an exhaustive list, but does catch some of the more weak models in my eyes:

    Cryx Units:
    The trouble I've had with many Cryx units for years now is that they bring more-different melee options over and over again. Now that things are being re-thought it leaves the question of what to do with all of these models so they don't overlap one another so much.

    Bloodgorgers / Slaughterborn:
    They don't hit all that hard anymore, and they aren't that accurate either, making them kind of lousy as Berserk-&-Overtake anti-troop models for their points. If Bloodgorgers had Battle Driven, and Slaughterborn had Veteran Leader, I think it would help both issues. I also would much rather Slaughterborn was a unit attachment now, since he is pretty useless for 7pts without the Bloodgorgers getting his Leadership [Berserk] (for what that's worth).

    Bane Knights:
    These guys don't feel all that useful anymore. As a hard line troop they kind of compete with the new direction for Bloodgorgers. Perhaps if they had Wall of Steel they might have a niche again for a quick-moving (with Vengeance movement) line troop. Losing Weaponmaster has me really questioning the value of these guys, since they are neither accurate nor all that hard-hitting for 17pts.

    Tartarus:
    8pts is a really steep way to get more Banes ... and without Thresher, that is about all Tartarus is good for now. I don't necessarily think he is a bad concept (and I do NOT want to see Thresher on a model with Death Toll ever again either), but I'd want to see Tartarus drop in cost to like 6pts.

    Bane Riders:
    I compare them to Uhlans, who get +3 POW on top of the Bane Knights (and 2" Reach thanks to Lance), Steady, +1 SPD, ARM 17 + Wall of Steel (vs ARM 18), and +2 base MAT. Bane Knights just feel clumsy by comparison for the same 20pts. They can be POW 15 on the charge, and can do the Curse thing to make their impact attacks useful against troops who are clustered up nicely ... but these two things don't come together all that nicely. Their threat range is pretty lousy for Cavalry too. What would make them more-useful for me is if they shook up their role and gave them Hex Bolt on Magic Ability 6 for a short-range Magic Attack.

    Cryx Jacks:
    Jacks got a big boost in Mk3, and I'm overall pretty happy with how most Cryx jacks work. There are a few minor exceptions for me:

    Helldiver:
    Burrowing in Mk2 was either next-to-pointless or a fantastic assassination tool. I can't say I want to see it become that amazing assassination trick that it once was, but I hardly see the value of the way it works now. Perhaps if it could move further underground the Helldiver might still have some purpose beyond a scenario-blocking piece.

    Reaper / Malice:
    I have a hard time justifying taking a Reaper over taking Malice. I had this problem in Mk2 as well, so I'm not surprised to have it here in Mk3 as well. I don't have any problems with Malice as he is, but to make him more worth 15pts, I'd love to see him go up to RNG 10 on his shot. The Reaper, on the other hand, feels like he is 1pt too pricey for me -- were it 12pts I would have no problem taking him as a cheap heavy and a helpful gun.

    Deathjack:
    This guy is fine for what he does, but just hard to justify taking at 23pts. I like that he can't cast Upkeep spells, but with that change it does make his own spellcasting much more niche in value. Now I can't use him as a big arc node, and that means I'm no longer getting the 2-in-1 value that would make him worthwhile early on. I'd like to see him drop to maybe 21pts, or perhaps get his old Mk1 Necrovent back so he has more support options early game. Late-game he is still spectacular since he can get up to 5 focus, but without as much early-game options it's tough to make his points worthwhile until the battlefield is thinned out enough for him to trash the big-enemy model.

    Cryx Solos:
    Other than Tartarus and Slaughterborn that I covered above, I really only have one small complaint:

    Skarlock:
    For starters I'd like to see this guy be 3pts so he at least stacks up on a per-model cost with the Withershadow Combine. To actually give him a niche, I'd like to see him get Range Extension (+5 RNG when he casts a spell) so he could be a spell artillery kind of piece.
    Last edited by Martyr of the Cause; 12-31-2016 at 10:11 AM. Reason: More thoughts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avanice View Post
    You don't think TK and Icy grip are enough control? I think anymore and he'd be dangerous close to gaspy2 mk2 territory.

    In truth it would be nice if our soul mechanics were changed to match mk3. We are the only faction that I am aware of that needs to gain our souls from the enemy while protectorate, skorne and convergence get it from themselves which is why that mechanic has left them fairly strong in that territory.

    With almost all of our casters who have Soul Addiction you will notice not many of them are ranking high due to smaller # of infantry. For example I love Terminus, but it's too easy to limit his feat. Not compare him to Denny3 who generates her own and you immediately know which one has more consistency. I'd dare say living models would become a great tool for us if we had the ability to actually capture our own souls especially if we could then use their corpses with necrosurgeons
    You forgot he can force re-rolls. So throwing raiders and wrong eye and snap saw in his list is mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoreyMessman View Post
    Well, free tatarsauce and bane UA would be nice. But it wont fix anything.

    That is what troubles me most post errata - we got buffed, but only for already good models - so no need to try something new (maybe except min warriors+UA)
    There's a lot new to try.

    Since Brutes now have the potential to protect your expensive center pieces it's possible to run expensive jacks again and play casters further forward against high pow shooting lists (eg. Lylyth3, some Cygnar builds, Khador demolisher spam).

    Likewise, there's currently a move to high def builds in the meta (Fyanna2, Una2) which means you can dust off a bunch of models like Biles that didn't get played as much against arm skew.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martyr of the Cause View Post
    Bloodgorgers / Slaughterborn:
    They don't hit all that hard anymore, and they aren't that accurate either, making them kind of lousy as Berserk-&-Overtake anti-troop models for their points. If Bloodgorgers had Battle Driven, and Slaughterborn had Veteran Leader, I think it would help both issues. I also would much rather Slaughterborn was a unit attachment now, since he is pretty useless for 7pts without the Bloodgorgers getting his Leadership [Berserk] (for what that's worth).
    Agree. I have a hard time justifying Bloodgorgers. They're supposed to be chaff removal in a meta that doesn't see much chaff.

    Bane Knights:
    These guys don't feel all that useful anymore. As a hard line troop they kind of compete with the new direction for Bloodgorgers. Perhaps if they had Wall of Steel they might have a niche again for a quick-moving (with Vengeance movement) line troop. Losing Weaponmaster has me really questioning the value of these guys, since they are neither accurate nor all that hard-hitting for 17pts.
    Knights are still pretty good, with Tartarus or someone else to provide Dark Shroud they hit almost as hard warriors and Vengeance gives them the ability to threat extend or walk into back strikes. They were pretty good until spray spam became a thing in my meta.

    Tartarus:
    8pts is a really steep way to get more Banes ... and without Thresher, that is about all Tartarus is good for now. I don't necessarily think he is a bad concept (and I do NOT want to see Thresher on a model with Death Toll ever again either), but I'd want to see Tartarus drop in cost to like 6pts.
    Tartarus' real value is in cursing to make your Banes effective mat 8 on the charge and providing Dark Shroud to Knights. The death toll is a fun corner case if you're facing warbeasts or you need your Banes to do infantry duty.

    Bane Riders:
    I compare them to Uhlans, who get +3 POW on top of the Bane Knights (and 2" Reach thanks to Lance), Steady, +1 SPD, ARM 17 + Wall of Steel (vs ARM 18), and +2 base MAT. Bane Knights just feel clumsy by comparison for the same 20pts. They can be POW 15 on the charge, and can do the Curse thing to make their impact attacks useful against troops who are clustered up nicely ... but these two things don't come together all that nicely. Their threat range is pretty lousy for Cavalry too. What would make them more-useful for me is if they shook up their role and gave them Hex Bolt on Magic Ability 6 for a short-range Magic Attack.
    I use Riders a lot. As the highest in-faction infantry arm they're very useful against the achilles heel of the rest of Cryx infantry, sprays. A better in faction comparison is between Bane Knights and Tartarus and Riders. Riders have slightly better base threat than Knights and do a little more damage, but they have a lower volume of attacks and less threat compared to Vengeance. The advantage is that they're relatively self contained as well as being more survivable.

    Reaper / Malice:
    I have a hard time justifying taking a Reaper over taking Malice. I had this problem in Mk2 as well, so I'm not surprised to have it here in Mk3 as well. I don't have any problems with Malice as he is, but to make him more worth 15pts, I'd love to see him go up to RNG 10 on his shot. The Reaper, on the other hand, feels like he is 1pt too pricey for me -- were it 12pts I would have no problem taking him as a cheap heavy and a helpful gun.
    Drag jacks are super useful in my meta (although you pretty much lose when you fail to drag). Quite a bit of what I run into (Legion and Circle beasts especially) out threat my jacks and infantry. Getting the alpha against 2+ of my opponent's heavies is usually enough to decide the game. This is one of the reasons that Sturgis is so underrated in Mk3. The extra 3" of threat extension usually means my infantry get the alpha.

    Deathjack:
    This guy is fine for what he does, but just hard to justify taking at 23pts. I like that he can't cast Upkeep spells, but with that change it does make his own spellcasting much more niche in value. Now I can't use him as a big arc node, and that means I'm no longer getting the 2-in-1 value that would make him worthwhile early on. I'd like to see him drop to maybe 21pts, or perhaps get his old Mk1 Necrovent back so he has more support options early game. Late-game he is still spectacular since he can get up to 5 focus, but without as much early-game options it's tough to make his points worthwhile until the battlefield is thinned out enough for him to trash the big-enemy model.
    He's still useful, but much more situational. He's almost a must include with Agathia since he allows you to spam ghostly and get to arm 21 with Vengeance thanks to hellwrought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohlmann View Post
    The HR that being said have spell who are somewhat expensive and low-impact compared to Telekinesis or Feast of Worm, and he have a pretty low starting stats, especially focus. That's less visible for him than for Zaal 2, granted, but I still see as a very bad idea to see Scaverous or Asphyxious have 25+ focus to spend in a turn.

    Also, there isn't that much soul in a typical cryx army, and Satyxis already make the other cryx infantry look silly enough. And it make Cryx feel less distinct if they start to cram their cheapest (souled) unit to get soul like two other factions already do. I guess soul collector could start fully provisioned, either baseline or as a theme list benefit, or simply have bigger soul collection area to start with.
    Ever since the Ranking Officers were released for the other Warmachine factions, I thought that Cryx should have a Ranking Officer and that officer should make the models in the unit be treated as enemies for the purpose of soul collection when they are killed by enemy models (I would call it Extended Contract). The release of Soul Collectors made souls important for a wider variety of Warcasters and other models. Cryx are too dependent on the army selection of their opponents, with several factions being able to reduce the number of souls they bring with construct units or Warjack heavy viability. Having a Ranking Officer as the way to take usable souls means that the field allowance of the officer dictates how many souls can be brought. Cryx is still one of the more limited factions when it comes to access to Mercenary units, so the impact of such a Ranking Officer would be similarly limited.
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  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martyr of the Cause View Post
    Deathjack:
    This guy is fine for what he does, but just hard to justify taking at 23pts. I like that he can't cast Upkeep spells, but with that change it does make his own spellcasting much more niche in value. Now I can't use him as a big arc node, and that means I'm no longer getting the 2-in-1 value that would make him worthwhile early on. I'd like to see him drop to maybe 21pts, or perhaps get his old Mk1 Necrovent back so he has more support options early game. Late-game he is still spectacular since he can get up to 5 focus, but without as much early-game options it's tough to make his points worthwhile until the battlefield is thinned out enough for him to trash the big-enemy model.
    I agree with most of your post, but I'm really offended by the fact that you put Deathjack in the same list as the rest of the references of your post. Sure, Deathjack does not work with every caster (so he's not Barathrum). But with those he does, he's insane. Simply put, he won me a tournament with Ashpyxious3 (the reports must still be here somewhere in this forum), with his resilience, damage output and free Hex Blasts.

    I have a very different conclusion from you, he's not supposed to be a support option anymore (with no more upkeep cycling), but a very intimidating offensive piece with utility.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Far2Casual View Post
    I agree with most of your post, but I'm really offended by the fact that you put Deathjack in the same list as the rest of the references of your post. Sure, Deathjack does not work with every caster (so he's not Barathrum). But with those he does, he's insane. Simply put, he won me a tournament with Ashpyxious3 (the reports must still be here somewhere in this forum), with his resilience, damage output and free Hex Blasts.

    I have a very different conclusion from you, he's not supposed to be a support option anymore (with no more upkeep cycling), but a very intimidating offensive piece with utility.
    I added Deathjack as an afterthought to my list. It's that hefty price that makes him so lackluster for me. I don't think he is as tarnished for me as Bane Knights or Tartarus, but I do feel like the Deathjack has become more niche now.

    But, perhaps the trouble is more that I don't understand how to play him in his new context. It seems like I need to not commit him early now, and therefore not have him so involved in the first parts of the fight ... and that is what hurts me at 23pts. This is where I see that if he still had a 5" cloud he could make it would push him to a DEF 15 vs guns and block LOS for the army, making him very useful early in the game despite his inability to properly substitute for a arc node now.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martyr of the Cause View Post
    I added Deathjack as an afterthought to my list. It's that hefty price that makes him so lackluster for me. I don't think he is as tarnished for me as Bane Knights or Tartarus, but I do feel like the Deathjack has become more niche now.

    But, perhaps the trouble is more that I don't understand how to play him in his new context. It seems like I need to not commit him early now, and therefore not have him so involved in the first parts of the fight ... and that is what hurts me at 23pts. This is where I see that if he still had a 5" cloud he could make it would push him to a DEF 15 vs guns and block LOS for the army, making him very useful early in the game despite his inability to properly substitute for a arc node now.
    5" was ridiculous though, it made him immune to any single-wound infantry without Reach. Perhaps making it a 3" without dealing damage would be an option, but I agree with Far2Casual, he's a great beatstick, if and when you need one. But he is indeed very costly.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamingdevil View Post
    5" was ridiculous though, it made him immune to any single-wound infantry without Reach. Perhaps making it a 3" without dealing damage would be an option, but I agree with Far2Casual, he's a great beatstick, if and when you need one. But he is indeed very costly.
    i dunno for the amount of army clearing behemoth does shouldn't DJ have a means to fight that with clouds since he's clearly close to the same points and is an incredibly selfish warjack with rules that take away from it's offense to provide utility when Cryx still has nothing that can easily counter armor spam other than banes and debuffs which is pretty easy to park Orin Mid winter right behind 4-5 warjacks and say "waste of time to debuff" ...a clear niche for Cryx would be delivering a low quality army to do it's business against high quality models.

    If he did have a rule like that it would allow him to be surrounded by carrion thralls while being followed behind Satyxis gunslings to extend the cloud. That would be a valueable module that could allow Cryx to not need to Rely on Satyxis raider's high defense against guns when we could actually take many types of undead models to abuse those rules like every other faction does as well. It would at least seem like thought was put into it.. which right now Cryx just feels like a tacted on faction right now with a bunch of models you could ...but shouldn't use. DJ is often one of them for the price tag as 2 seethers will do much more lifting for very little difference in points.

    Just imagine Gaspy2 + Deathjack + Carrion Thralls + Gunslingers + anything else. You would have a very solid anti shooting option at last within Cryx that isn't relying on Stealth/Occulation which is very frequently countered, and not relying on feats to accomplish it either.
    Last edited by Avanice; 01-02-2017 at 12:06 PM.
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  38. #38
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    I don't know if Cryx really needs CORE buffs to the faction (yet), They still had a pretty strong 10% representation in WTC, and they are still doing rather well in Major Tournaments.

    I think the biggest issues with Cryx at the moment is the same thing a lot of other factions are facing as well. As those overwhelming aspects are toned down, everything else (including Cryx) rises from the power vacuum.

    Now, that being said... I said Cryx doesn't really need CORE buffs, there are more than a few underused models that could definitely use a bump to make them competitive compared to other in-faction options.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    I don't know if Cryx really needs CORE buffs to the faction (yet), They still had a pretty strong 10% representation in WTC, and they are still doing rather well in Major Tournaments.

    I think the biggest issues with Cryx at the moment is the same thing a lot of other factions are facing as well. As those overwhelming aspects are toned down, everything else (including Cryx) rises from the power vacuum.

    Now, that being said... I said Cryx doesn't really need CORE buffs, there are more than a few underused models that could definitely use a bump to make them competitive compared to other in-faction options.
    I don't think anyone is advocating for CORE buffs to Cryx, but either serious tweaks to very underwhelming (and very, very rarely used) units or a complete rework of the vision for the faction. Not a buff per se but a side grade to a more focused approach.

    The problem with Cryx in the competitive scene at the moment is that Witch Coven + Satyxis Raiders + Stalkers + Withershadow Combine are so good they skew results. Pretty much every single successful Cryx pairing is Witch Coven + 1 (probably Denny1) and contains double Raiders and Stalkers. Personally, I think Cryx are 'okay' IF you take the above units, the problem is outside of those units the faction really, really sucks. Like really bad.

    All I (we) want is to be able to bring Banes, bring Biles, bring Revenant Crew, bring Crab Jacks and bring most of our solos without feeling like we are gimping ourselves within the meta. The narrow selection of competitive choices within Cryx is the problem, not the competitive power level of the 'good' choices.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteVieBizzLe View Post
    The problem with Cryx in the competitive scene at the moment is that Witch Coven + Satyxis Raiders + Stalkers + Withershadow Combine are so good they skew results. Pretty much every single successful Cryx pairing is Witch Coven + 1 (probably Denny1) and contains double Raiders and Stalkers. Personally, I think Cryx are 'okay' IF you take the above units, the problem is outside of those units the faction really, really sucks. Like really bad.
    That particular coven build is great but it plays into a very particular type of gunline (Ossyan, WGR spam). Throw it at Fyanna2, Una2 or arm spam at it and it falls down hard. As the meta moves to other things we'll see different lists become viable.

    All I (we) want is to be able to bring Banes, bring Biles, bring Revenant Crew, bring Crab Jacks and bring most of our solos without feeling like we are gimping ourselves within the meta. The narrow selection of competitive choices within Cryx is the problem, not the competitive power level of the 'good' choices.
    It's not that those units are not competitive per se, it's that the meta didn't support bringing them until recently. Una2/Fyanna2 makes Levis and Biles viable again as counters to def/feat spam. Amon jack spam begs for banes as a counter.

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