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  1. #161
    Destroyer of Worlds _PG_Avanice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post



    You're conflating yourself with your feedback
    . I'm saying nothing about you, just that your feedback is underspecified. I've explicitly said that it's impossible to tell how or even if you're trying to solve problems because your comments don't fully explain your line of thinking. Again go back and read this.
    Did you just link a website that is titled "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" while trying not to insult someone and failing spectacularly at it by personalizing the statement multiple times? Jesus man just stop... please you are seriously making this worse he done trying to talk to you that's clear.

    Your empathy is literally on sociopath levels here. You don't try and persuade someone by calling their method of asking questions dumb because that is the only way your statement would be interrupted after reading this for the 20th time to confirm just how marvelously off the point it all is.
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  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksil View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]Then what is the point of Cryx being a defined as a "spell-sling faction". With the Skarlock loosing the ability to cast upkeeps is really messes with Cryx's order of activation. At this point, I look the abilities other "caster attachments" have and put more value on those than a skarlock casting a "Single nuke". Abilities like -1 to the Cost of the next spell, a Re-Roll, Free Upkeep, etc. Yes, Cryx has all these rolled into one VERY expensive package that is the WSC. When you look at models like Deryliss compared to ANY others factions attachments or character attachments like Doomy 3's Scrollbearer ... I just say raise my arms in the air and say "Why, can't Cryx have nice things too".
    You've hit on one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the Skarlock. I realize that the Skarlock is meant to be a "sedan", but I'd really like some ability to differentiate it from the WSC. In the fluff the Skarlock is supposed to be an extension of the caster and its "boots on the ground". In that vein I'd argue that some form of control range extension would give me a reason to take the Skarlock as an alternative to the WSC.

    The Skarlock/New "Spell caster" ruling is BUGGED. The ability is horribly written with interactions like Ravager, Overrun, Excarnate, etc ..
    This is definitely true, the fact that everyone's so confused by the interaction is proof enough. What I suspect is that we'll see it redefined in an upcoming errata to clarify. The control range interaction especially drives me crazy.

    Both of these methods rely on a common factor. DELIVERY. If Cryx can't deliver a Machine Wraith, a Reaper, or Malice into threat range, we loose threat extension. If an opponent constantly stays out of threat of those models, you can't threat extend either. Point being, all of those options rely on my opponent making mistakes, why other factions just get cast a spell or use an ability that I cannot stop to get their threat extension.
    14" threat for a Drag is well beyond even mobility and fleet jacks. If your opponent is intent on staying out of threat range with melee jacks that means they're staying out of scenario too. Shooting is another matter entirely, but that's what Brutes are meant to handle in the post errata world.

    I haven't had much trouble delivering machine wraiths either, but that will change if my opponents start bringing more magic weapons.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    You've brought nothing to the table save socratic method and ever-moving goalposts. Your tone is still condescending. I have my doubts that you've actually read my posts beyond simply skimming, since I've mentioned autohits/nontarget attacks/insanely high accuracy multiple times before.
    You've mentioned auto-hits but you haven't mentioned a particular problem to solve. You may not like the socratic questioning, but it's gotten you halfway to actually stating specific problems, examining what the faction provides and then proposing solutions.

  4. #164
    Destroyer of Worlds _PG_Avanice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    You've mentioned auto-hits but you haven't mentioned a particular problem to solve. You may not like the socratic questioning, but it's gotten you halfway to actually stating specific problems, examining what the faction provides and then proposing solutions.
    XD what a completely broken record. You've been told off man Just learn to drop it when you are told off it's the organic point to do so.
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  5. #165
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    Anyway, the thread has mostly run it's course anyway.

    For my 2017 Warmachine goal, I chose to ... try not to give up on the game.

    Let's try to keep a spark alive on this forum - if anyone comes across a fun/interesting list build, please share.

    I, for one, think that pure infantry spam isn't dead just yet. I just have to figure out how to make it work. I saw a dude on the Cryx facebook group with ... 30? 40? McThralls. With AD, a few Brutes sprinkled in, and Terminus .. this could be a thing.

    Klaw

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaw View Post
    Let's try to keep a spark alive on this forum - if anyone comes across a fun/interesting list build, please share.

    I, for one, think that pure infantry spam isn't dead just yet. I just have to figure out how to make it work. I saw a dude on the Cryx facebook group with ... 30? 40? McThralls. With AD, a few Brutes sprinkled in, and Terminus .. this could be a thing.

    Klaw
    There's a couple of fun builds out there that are worth trying that I've been playing with lately. Levis + Nightwretches + Biles + Carrions with Denny2. Overlords + Saxon + Bloodgorgers (with death ward) + Gerlak + Croes with Scaverous. Agathia + ghostly thrall spam or Aiakos + Drag + Thralls.

    There're still plenty of fun things to try post errata.

  7. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    14" threat for a Drag is well beyond even mobility and fleet jacks. If your opponent is intent on staying out of threat range with melee jacks that means they're staying out of scenario too. Shooting is another matter entirely, but that's what Brutes are meant to handle in the post errata world.

    I haven't had much trouble delivering machine wraiths either, but that will change if my opponents start bringing more magic weapons.
    You forgot to say that you HAVE TO damage with drag and there CANNOT be anything in the way of drag. And also if you miss you are in charge range of 4 SPD jack. And 14" from drag are like 3" extension for 13 (15) points per chance for one target. And you lose this chance once you are crippled - one hit for 7 into 1 and harpoon is gone.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoreyMessman View Post
    You forgot to say that you HAVE TO damage with drag and there CANNOT be anything in the way of drag. And also if you miss you are in charge range of 4 SPD jack. And 14" from drag are like 3" extension for 13 (15) points per chance for one target. And you lose this chance once you are crippled - one hit for 7 into 1 and harpoon is gone.
    Oh, there are plenty of posts from me on the forums complaining about drag, especially during this summer's JML.

    One subtle point about drag, it usually costs 2 focus to get right so you get at most two unboosted melee attacks from the reaper. This means that drag becomes a support effect like Dark Shroud. The drag is what enables your slower units like Bane Warriors to get their hands on tasty targets. Assuming your Banes start 2-4" behind your drag jack (eg. you were both running) you've effectively extended the range of Bane Warriors against an enemy heavy by 7-8".

    It's certainly not a perfect mechanism, but it's definitely part of the Cryx toolbox worth mastering.

  9. #169

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    I feel like if every undead unit went down 2 points I'd be fine with cryx because I would have numbers to counter shooting it kinda bugs me that blood witches with the bag is only 17pts which is the same as banes and really they're more useful tactics blessed, gang, and 2 attacks is no joke plus stealth. I feel like in our faction they're way more lethal than banes.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    Oh, there are plenty of posts from me on the forums complaining about drag, especially during this summer's JML.

    One subtle point about drag, it usually costs 2 focus to get right so you get at most two unboosted melee attacks from the reaper. This means that drag becomes a support effect like Dark Shroud. The drag is what enables your slower units like Bane Warriors to get their hands on tasty targets. Assuming your Banes start 2-4" behind your drag jack (eg. you were both running) you've effectively extended the range of Bane Warriors against an enemy heavy by 7-8".

    It's certainly not a perfect mechanism, but it's definitely part of the Cryx toolbox worth mastering.
    really just one focus, for drag.

    and that can be provided by a witch.

    i literally always take a reaper. its our only "threat extension" any more.

    but i have been there, moved up, shot, hit, failed to damage on boosted damage rolls. plan falls apart real quick. the only thing i found to do was set up for things that charge the reaper.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Profanity72 View Post
    I feel like if every undead unit went down 2 points I'd be fine with cryx because I would have numbers to counter shooting it kinda bugs me that blood witches with the bag is only 17pts which is the same as banes and really they're more useful tactics blessed, gang, and 2 attacks is no joke plus stealth. I feel like in our faction they're way more lethal than banes.
    i want more of an identity to the faction than just cheap units. ill go play cephalyx if i want cheap things i can spam.

  12. #172
    Destroyer of Worlds _PG_Avanice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deademon View Post
    i want more of an identity to the faction than just cheap units. ill go play cephalyx if i want cheap things i can spam.
    Right, that is mostly what I am looking for here. The Mcthralls are a disjointed ...let's call it "Rules meta"unit meaning that it obtained rules because of the current meta being so heavily shooting oriented. It's not that the unit doesn't do a job it just does a weird kinda disjointed job that makes no sense to us a Cryxian players to watch these zombies behavior in weird patterns like sneaking up the board and jumping out of the air to take bullets for warjacks.

    Makes sense for a unit like the Warders as they protect an area from intrusion and preventing harm to befall upon their caster or holy places. I don't think i've seen a single player look at Mcthralls and think "That isn;t alright." we as Cryxians are saying "What the hell are they doing? Crush my enemies into paste you fools!" To us it felt so strange to watch this powerfully mechanically enhanced zombie soldier to become this soft hitting slow shambling thing. We watched our poster boys of the faction turn into literal push overs and scenario contesters as oppose to watching 3-6 of them take on a light warjack we are seeing them fall to the ground to be returned to battle and fall back down again.

    It's disjointed, completely counter thematic and makes it feel like they are just completely different than what we had. One of the only things that stayed in theme for them was the idea of Dual strike but even that is a pale shadow of itself especially when our debuffs aren't as frequently in these scenes as well. I don't mind what PP is making of them I am more disheartened that this unit doesn't feel like the original pitch of Cryxian break neck aggression paired with either recursion or black magic.
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  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by deademon View Post
    really just one focus, for drag.

    and that can be provided by a witch.

    i literally always take a reaper. its our only "threat extension" any more.

    but i have been there, moved up, shot, hit, failed to damage on boosted damage rolls. plan falls apart real quick. the only thing i found to do was set up for things that charge the reaper.
    That's why I always take the WSC with a drag jack. I lost two games in my JML failing drags with Aggie. Never (statistically) again.

  14. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    That's why I always take the WSC with a drag jack. I lost two games in my JML failing drags with Aggie. Never (statistically) again.
    But you forggot that damage part is just half of requirements. If there is anything between reaper and target Drag fails.

    I am not saying drag is totally useless (it won me a lot of JML games) but it is easily countered and our drag jacks are crap for 13 points (Malice is nearly ok for 15 - if she only can start with 1 soul).

    And I think this is because our jacks are crap compared to another factions. We are not glass cannon, but glass pillow. Sure, with SPD6 you can be the one who alpha strike in melee matchup. But your alpha is meh. And retaliation will remove lots of your points.
    And it is same with infantry, we are glass, but we lack the punch. If we should be melee glass cannons, then any of our models should wreck a lot if he gets into melee through screening fire. Instead of this we have something like: "Run you maggots and don fear of death, if you can make it you can touch that enemy jack/kiss infantry and then die a hero next turn". It reminds me Monty Python Suicide squad.

    I know we can win tournaments if we take Denny1+Coven filled with raiders/barathrum but I dont like to have only few playable models. I would like to buy new ones to paint and play, but I wont because I am never going to play crabjacks, or Riders, or Bane knights, or "feel free to add model"
    And saying our possition is ok is wrong.
    In our LGS I was able to buy a lot of Cryx models from leaving players and when I asked them why they quit all of them said: "Cryx is no fun anymore, I think the kind of lost soul." And I was stupid enough not to believe them, thinking they lack faith in Toruk and PP. I chose Cryx because of undeath models and dark machinery only to find that those dark secrets and forbidden magic is sub-par compared to mainstream ones.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoreyMessman View Post
    But you forggot that damage part is just half of requirements. If there is anything between reaper and target Drag fails.
    For sure, one opponent liked to keep a troll bouncer behind his other trolls so I couldn't drag. On the other hand, with judicious parasites I had a lot of luck dragging Khador. I'm fine with Drag not being a 100% solution, but it's part of the game.

    I am not saying drag is totally useless (it won me a lot of JML games) but it is easily countered and our drag jacks are crap for 13 points (Malice is nearly ok for 15 - if she only can start with 1 soul).
    The same reaper has 12" threat and 2 more p+s 16 autohits if you hit your charge attack (another reason I require the WSC with them, I've missed plenty of charges with Reapers too) so even if drag fails they can do something useful before being slaughtered.

    And I think this is because our jacks are crap compared to another factions. We are not glass cannon, but glass pillow. Sure, with SPD6 you can be the one who alpha strike in melee matchup. But your alpha is meh. And retaliation will remove lots of your points.
    A slayer combo strike and reaper combo does enough work that I'm not that frustrated provided I get there with my arms intact. 1 on 1ing with Cryx jacks is definitely not fun though.

    And it is same with infantry, we are glass, but we lack the punch. If we should be melee glass cannons, then any of our models should wreck a lot if he gets into melee through screening fire. Instead of this we have something like: "Run you maggots and don fear of death, if you can make it you can touch that enemy jack/kiss infantry and then die a hero next turn". It reminds me Monty Python Suicide squad.
    Cryx infantry hit plenty hard enough, they just need a caster to deliver them. The same troll list that had an easy time with Reapers had a horrible time with stealthed bane knights. There are counter examples and corner cases that need to be addressed, but things aren't as black and white as some would claim.

    I know we can win tournaments if we take Denny1+Coven filled with raiders/barathrum but I dont like to have only few playable models. I would like to buy new ones to paint and play, but I wont because I am never going to play crabjacks, or Riders, or Bane knights, or "feel free to add model"
    I've had success in various situations with all of those models. Crabjacks with Denny2, Riders and Bane Knights with Sturgis. Again they have bad drops but in tournaments where they have to face other lists they do plenty of work.

    And saying our possition is ok is wrong.
    In our LGS I was able to buy a lot of Cryx models from leaving players and when I asked them why they quit all of them said: "Cryx is no fun anymore, I think the kind of lost soul." And I was stupid enough not to believe them, thinking they lack faith in Toruk and PP. I chose Cryx because of undeath models and dark machinery only to find that those dark secrets and forbidden magic is sub-par compared to mainstream ones.
    Cryx is certainly not a win button anymore, but there's still a lot of interesting and fun things to try in the faction. If you want to have fun I'd argue that Aiakos2, Sturgis and Denny2 are all "fun" casters because they let you do interesting things. Aiakos2 gives threat extension to your jacks and a great control spell list. Sturgis gives delivery, threat extension and personal melee power. Denny2 gives a great spell list and a surprisingly interesting feat for ranged assassination.

    There's fun to be had, you just need to look for it.

  16. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    For sure, one opponent liked to keep a troll bouncer behind his other trolls so I couldn't drag. On the other hand, with judicious parasites I had a lot of luck dragging Khador. I'm fine with Drag not being a 100% solution, but it's part of the game.



    The same reaper has 12" threat and 2 more p+s 16 autohits if you hit your charge attack (another reason I require the WSC with them, I've missed plenty of charges with Reapers too) so even if drag fails they can do something useful before being slaughtered.



    A slayer combo strike and reaper combo does enough work that I'm not that frustrated provided I get there with my arms intact. 1 on 1ing with Cryx jacks is definitely not fun though.



    Cryx infantry hit plenty hard enough, they just need a caster to deliver them. The same troll list that had an easy time with Reapers had a horrible time with stealthed bane knights. There are counter examples and corner cases that need to be addressed, but things aren't as black and white as some would claim.



    I've had success in various situations with all of those models. Crabjacks with Denny2, Riders and Bane Knights with Sturgis. Again they have bad drops but in tournaments where they have to face other lists they do plenty of work.



    Cryx is certainly not a win button anymore, but there's still a lot of interesting and fun things to try in the faction. If you want to have fun I'd argue that Aiakos2, Sturgis and Denny2 are all "fun" casters because they let you do interesting things. Aiakos2 gives threat extension to your jacks and a great control spell list. Sturgis gives delivery, threat extension and personal melee power. Denny2 gives a great spell list and a surprisingly interesting feat for ranged assassination.

    There's fun to be had, you just need to look for it.
    Ok, so you think Cryx is in good place and doesn't need fixing?

  17. #177
    Destroyer of Worlds Ruffy's Avatar
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    Do you have tournament results for unusual lists?

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoreyMessman View Post
    Ok, so you think Cryx is in good place and doesn't need fixing?
    Not at all. I think right now Cryx has a bunch of problems, but I'd argue that most of them are with the game in general (inability of melee/non skew warrior units to produce) and a few with the faction itself (inability to arm spam outside of Riders or Blood Gorgers with Death Ward).

    That said, the general "sky is falling" negativity is uncreative, not true and worst of all --boring.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    Do you have tournament results for unusual lists?
    I've run two unusual lists in our local tournaments:

    I ran Sturgis+Aikos+Stalkers+Raiders+Knights at our JML tournament. He ran into Legion Lylyth1 lists and handedly by dragging an Angelius and flanking a Neraph with Knights and Tartarus. Lylyth1 desperation feated and killed my Raiders but I jumped to engage with a Stalker and didn't do enough to kill her, but my opponent had to devote enough resources to kill Aiakos that the Reaper was able to walk into combat and boost and hit his first attack on Lylyth1. She died to the next sustained attack IIRC.

    Last tournament I ran a Denny2+Levi+Biles+Carrion list and Skarre1 bonejack+carrion spam. The Denny2 list did what it was supposed to against Una2 and wiped most of her Griffons but I didn't jam well enough with the Carrions and lost on scenario. With tuning I'd definitely run it again.

    Both reports should be in my post history.

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