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  1. #1
    Destroyer of Worlds stereynolds's Avatar
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    Default Caine3 rumours in the Cygnar forum

    For anyone who doesn't venture into the swan forum:


    Quote Originally Posted by JPGREAT1 View Post
    While doing my chrsitmas shopping I came across a reedit page with pictures of a pdf form and picture that had Caine3 listed on it. I read what I could before it mysteriously vanished. I waited for a few days to see if someone else would say something on the forums, facebook page, or at the very least talk about possible rumors. So far nothing... well I can't hold it in anymore and while I am drawing on memory of something I looked at while waiting in line to purchase christmas gifts. Here is what I got out of that pdf file.

    Caine3 stats are virtually identical to Caine2.

    Witch mark was an ability apparently on his gun. He had 2 initials and the ability to reload twice.

    His spell list was good really good, as we all know he has calamity. What wasn't spoiled was Stranglehold, blur, and tac supremacy.

    As far as the 2 b13 members, Ryan stats were very similar but her def and armor was raised by 1. She had brutal, shadow fire, and black penny as her shots as well a chain attack. She had snapfire innately on her card but gave the group "tactics: swift hunter".

    Watts had similar stats to Ryan but as we all know has the rifle. He gave the group truesight and his shot types were deadly shot, deafen, and trick shot.

    His feat I didn't read really well, as I said I was shopping but what I do remember was an additional die in some sort of damage type. If I had to guess, all magic guns gain additional die in damage. While again, I can't find the pdf anymore this seems kind of legitmate. This Caine seems to give the debuff caster vibe. Ofcourse this could also be a possible version of him and that version has now change OR my chain was being yanked completely by someone.

    I figured I share.

    Seems unlikely that's the finished version. Or at least he is a strong support caster in Cygnar and has limited application in Mercs...Thoughts if this is what he's like in Mercs?

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    Judge Robert Shepherd's Avatar
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    I had a good laugh when I got to Snapfire natively on Ryan. Ho ho ho. How I laughed.

    JPGREAT is looking for attention.
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  3. #3
    Destroyer of Worlds stereynolds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Shepherd View Post
    I had a good laugh when I got to Snapfire natively on Ryan.
    Yeah that bit seemed hilariously unlikely to me.

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    No teleport ability I see. Which is ... unexpected. His application in mercs starts as a ranged assassin, Caine2 style (which we don't currently have). If it is an additional dice damage on ranged magical attacks then that's five shots (Reinholdt) with four of them taking advantage of Calamity and all with an extra dice, plus whatever Ryan and Watts put out backed by Calamity.

    Deafen's an ... interesting choice. A 2 point to hit buff is always good.

    Snap Fire on Ryan with True Sight and Shadow Fire? You did want infantry? Or did you mean Swift Hunter?

    Bonus dice on ranged magical weapons? That's Eiryss, Gastone, Harlan Versh, Taryn, and the Thorn Gun Mages with Cygnar also getting the Tempest Gun Mages and Murderponies? And us getting Kell? Also it would make Aiyana & Holt a near auto-include.

    I'm seeing a small battlegroup here (Three Nomads or possibly even Nomad, Freebooter, Buccaneer) and quite a bit of infantry with Blur and Tac Supremacy. And enemy casters that need to tread very very ​carefully when within 19"

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    Neonchameleon, it's obviously bollocks.
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    Yeah, it does not seem realistic. I went down the rabbit hole in that thread pointing out how ludicrous Tactics: Swift Hunter on the unit would be, honing in particular on a caster that can buy shots and a member of the unit with snapfire.

    There's just no way it's real, unless Jason Soles lost a bet or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmike View Post
    Haight, you are the hero Cygnar deserves.
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  7. #7

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    Wait... with Tac Supremacy... T.A.C. might actually have a place again! Not a big one mind you, but we could finally pull the Haley three trick with smoke!
    I play Mercs, Minions, and thanks to the battle box and partisan... Cygnar

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    Damn Cygnar players trying to snatch our caster. He's a MERC with partisan not the other way around damnit!

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    Quote Originally Posted by atsuno11 View Post
    Damn Cygnar players trying to snatch our caster. He's a MERC with partisan not the other way around damnit!
    Unfortunately, I'm betting he'll be better in Cygnar than Mercs, but time will tell. Calamity plus Storm Lances is durn strong. Mercs are much less effective at range.

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    Unfortunately, I'm betting he'll be better in Cygnar than Mercs, but time will tell. Calamity plus Storm Lances is durn strong. Mercs are much less effective at range.
    *cough* Idrians *cough*

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirkwisely View Post
    *cough* Idrians *cough*
    Idrians are a great ranged unit? In my experience they are 20 easy points for the other guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaede View Post
    Idrians are a great ranged unit? In my experience they are 20 easy points for the other guy.
    I'm sorry you seem to have a bad batch of Idrians. My Idrians have taken down their prey target every game they've played. I'm ecstatic they didn't change in the errata. As far as the rumors, rubbish I'll wait for official word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowking View Post
    I'm sorry you seem to have a bad batch of Idrians. My Idrians have taken down their prey target every game they've played. I'm ecstatic they didn't change in the errata. As far as the rumors, rubbish I'll wait for official word.
    You misunderstand. I am the opponent. I took them off the purchase list after watching them fail against me every time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaede View Post
    You misunderstand. I am the opponent. I took them off the purchase list after watching them fail against me every time.
    I have a friend that used to run them a lot, so i'm pretty good at surgically getting around them when I have to. That said, they are still a very high quality unit and don't take a lot of skill to get huge returns out of. You may be quite good at countering them but that's not the same thing as them being a bad unit.


    That said: Calamity + prey + A+H (if we wanna get crazy) = potentially PS 18 charges with Kiss, 16 without, all at MAT 10-11. That's... nuts.

    The shooting starts at RAT 9 without even taking aiming into effect, and a two man combined becomes POW 17-19 depending on the presence of Kiss or not. They can throw out 6 of these.

    Even disregarding Kiss, the fact that other than the application of a single spell, the rest of this potential is all self contained. Also, that spell hits automatically regardless of range if its caster hits with what will likely be a RAT 9 attack score (as calamity and witchmark are the two things we know for sure on this caster, despite the rest of the very likely bogus spoilers). That attack to land witchmark is very, very likely to be 12".

    So Idrians will be perfectly capable of putting prey on a hard target like a jack or beast, getting a relatively early landing of calamity on that target, and lighting it up like a christmas tree in Rockefeller center. Even armor 20 will suffer on average 24 points of damage to one salvo of that (and that's without Kiss: if Kiss is up, on average, an armor 20 jack gets removed from the table unless its a colossal, as the average damage yield will be 36).

    It's pretty difficult to argue that is not good: keep in mind this unit can also self-go-to-ground, and we don't yet know what this caster can do other than two things. If, god forbid, he did get blur, just for an example, Idrians ranged and magic defense would be off the charts high. I don't think that's terribly likely, but still. I think unless the rest of the components of the caster unit are such that there are overwhelming synergies with other stuff, or such a goofy hodgepodge of do-nothingness (neither of which is very likely), I think Idrians are going to be a very, very solid take with this caster.

    Just my two cents on the matter.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmike View Post
    Haight, you are the hero Cygnar deserves.
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    I am perfectly aware of everything they do and the fact is they have made infantry so trivial to kill that none of it matters.

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    Well, after three replies to people in the thread with very little qualitative substance behind the opinion-stated-as-fact, and the complete absence of points to debate and counter point for good discussion, i doubt anything i will say will change your mind. That's not meant to be pejorative, mind you, as tone can read weirdly in text. It's just clear you're not interested in discussing the matter by injecting some counter-points. I have no issues at all with good point and counter point debate, but i've got exactly zero interest in trading single sentence absolutist statements. Which is fine: you probably have little interest in debating something you see as so cut and dry.

    I and lots of people don't think they are 20 points on a stick, but that's the cool thing about discussion forums: everyone can have their own opinion. Discussion forums are the best though when you actual discuss things back and forth, but there's no rule that you have to.

    I'd love to hear why you think they are so "trivially" mitigated, given their inherit and caster / support piece granted defensive tech capabilities and combos, if you're willing to share your thoughts on it and are open to some counter-point. My intent is not to change your mind, but simply discuss.

    Or not, that's cool too. I just don't like absolute statements without quantitative back up because it shuts down discussion rather than fostering it.

    I think Idrians will definitely be worth examining as a potential "take" with Caine 3 due to the presence of Calamity, though just how effective they'll be will depend on the entire eventual (real) kit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmike View Post
    Haight, you are the hero Cygnar deserves.
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  17. #17
    Judge Robert Shepherd's Avatar
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    I'm short on time today but I might put up a thread titled 'Idrians are not RAT7' tomorrow detailing my take on the unit if people want to discuss them further.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Shepherd View Post
    I'm short on time today but I might put up a thread titled 'Idrians are not RAT7' tomorrow detailing my take on the unit if people want to discuss them further.
    Of course. There are ways to mitigate prey, absolutely. There's always to counter into that play. You are correct though: dumb use of prey will mean you spent 20 points pretty terribly.

    For instance, Re-deployment is a common counter-prey play. I counter this by picking a prey target either on a flank (if there is a sense making one), and then deploying my idrians in a sense making position on the center / center -side that flank is located on. It also helps if the prey target is something that wants to close ranks (i.e., a strictly melee or mostly melee / optimimally melee target), where it has no choice but to sit and be useless or get closer(ish) to the preying unit.

    As many ways as there are counter prey plays, there are ways to use it intelligently as well. But yeah, i get your point, assuming you will always get 100% action out of prey is not a good idea. However, its worth noting when you can prey and calamity the same target, the results are bonkers. There is counter play to Calamity too, for what that's worth: Repudiate, Hex Blast in a pinch, any other anti upkeep. It's still worth discussing the operational merits of the spell and how to combo it.

    Unfortunately its hard to ruminate about table state on a text forum, but i think your overall point is "assuming the best possible case scenario is stupid", and if so, sure i can get on baord with that. Usually i look at the best case theoretical scenario, and think to myself "if table state / game state allows me to achieve 75% of that and not be unhappy with the counter play, would i be happy with the result?" If the answer to that is yes, then i'm probably pretty happy with whatever combo i've hit on, particularly if that combo has ways of keeping itself alive (in this case reposition and gtg).


    I think it would be a cool thread though, so when you have some time, definitely make it ... Prey's still a fairly rare mechanic in the game, so there's probably a lot of insight to get on it overall.
    Last edited by Mod_Haight; 01-02-2017 at 07:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmike View Post
    Haight, you are the hero Cygnar deserves.
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  19. #19
    Judge Robert Shepherd's Avatar
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    We'll see what my time today allows.

    In the short term, feel like responding to this hypothetical? It'll give me a sense of how you play Prey in a way that works for you.

    You're running a list that includes a full Idrian unit including UA against Damiano. The table has a scattering of terrain including hills and forests that provide lines of advance with defence against ranged attacks but no hugely dominant pieces. Damiano is going first and has a deployed alongside a battlegroup of three nomads and a marshalled Talon relatively centrally, and has a ten-man unit of halberdiers on either flank. Orin sits behind the battlegroup and Stannis has gone on the left flank. A full trencher boat has parked itself in the middle of the board spread out in a long line to cover the army's advance, and Kell has parked himself in a forest.

    You are about to advance deploy your idrians and choose prey. Who do you prey? Does your answer change depending on your warcaster? (we have mostly discussed Magnus2, but I've also heard idrians discussed as good choices for other warcasters)
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    We'll see what my time today allows.

    In the short term, feel like responding to this hypothetical? It'll give me a sense of how you play Prey in a way that works for you.

    You're running a list that includes a full Idrian unit including UA against Damiano. The table has a scattering of terrain including hills and forests that provide lines of advance with defence against ranged attacks but no hugely dominant pieces. Damiano is going first and has a deployed alongside a battlegroup of three nomads and a marshalled Talon relatively centrally, and has a ten-man unit of halberdiers on either flank. Orin sits behind the battlegroup and Stannis has gone on the left flank. A full trencher boat has parked itself in the middle of the board spread out in a long line to cover the army's advance, and Kell has parked himself in a forest.

    You are about to advance deploy your idrians and choose prey. Who do you prey? Does your answer change depending on your warcaster? (we have mostly discussed Magnus2, but I've also heard idrians discussed as good choices for other warcasters)
    I think the right answer to this hypothetical is "Your Idrians suck in this matchup". There is no right Prey target in this situation. The Trenchers will be nigh-unhittable even with Prey, the Halbediers either don't matter, or will simply stay away from the Idrians for a turn. The Trenchers with Deadeye will kill the Idrians before they have a chance to shoot a Prey target they can hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirkwisely View Post
    I think the right answer to this hypothetical is "Your Idrians suck in this matchup". There is no right Prey target in this situation. The Trenchers will be nigh-unhittable even with Prey, the Halbediers either don't matter, or will simply stay away from the Idrians for a turn. The Trenchers with Deadeye will kill the Idrians before they have a chance to shoot a Prey target they can hit.
    That's what happened when I played against warded Idrians last time. They were DEF 19 and Damiano killed 8 in one turn. When I played against them with Bart, they had to prey Galleon, and never made it because Orin electro zapped them to death. Ossrum sprayed them all down with Blasters and Skarath. With Thyra they were pretty good against Fiona, but that was in the very early days of MK3. I hear they're good with High Reclaimer, but we don't have any skilled HR players here to test the theory.
    Last edited by Slaede; 01-02-2017 at 03:54 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirkwisely View Post
    I think the right answer to this hypothetical is "Your Idrians suck in this matchup". There is no right Prey target in this situation. The Trenchers will be nigh-unhittable even with Prey, the Halbediers either don't matter, or will simply stay away from the Idrians for a turn. The Trenchers with Deadeye will kill the Idrians before they have a chance to shoot a Prey target they can hit.
    That's reasonable.

    How about some of these?


    Haley3
    - Ironclad, Thorn, two Grenadiers
    Trenchers, Storm Lances, Journeyman with Charger, Rhupert and Ragman
    Situation: hills and linear obstacles dot scenario zones. The cavalry have deployed to be able to aggressively occupy a hill on the left flank where they will be DEF17 ARM20 against ranged and magic; the rest of the army is advancing behind tac sup trenchers.


    Una2
    - pureblood, rotterhorn, gorax, seven scarsfells
    Two sentry stones and one shifting stone unit
    Situation: the scarsfells are advancing across a wide front while the rest of the circle army advances towards a forest outside their deployment zone. You have several walls to protect your advancing infantry, and a cloud bank that will probably expire at the earliest opportunity.


    Bartolo
    - Galleon, two Nomads
    Two ranger units and two halberdier units, Orin and Kell
    Situation: three medium-sized forests arranged in a triangle congest approaches and offer infantry on both sides equal access to concealment. The Halberdiers are deployed on either flank to advance in support of the warjacks and rangers . Orin is positioned to protect the battlegroup from spells like Calamity if required.


    High Reclaimer
    - Scourge of Heresy, Reckoner
    Exemplars, Exemplar Vengers, Cleansers with UA, min. Idrians with UA, choir, Rhoven and Co.
    Situation: the enemy Idrians have deployed to protect the advance of the Vengers while the warjacks advance centrally and the cleansers move up on the right. Cover is sparse, although there is a linear central forest that blocks LOS between the left and right flanks, some walls outside your deployment on the left, and the enemy idrians have found a hill to sit on that you expect them to occupy for the early game at least. Rhoven and Co are positioned centrally but can be expected to redeploy to support wherever they can get the most value out of shield guard.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Shepherd View Post
    We'll see what my time today allows.

    In the short term, feel like responding to this hypothetical? It'll give me a sense of how you play Prey in a way that works for you.

    You're running a list that includes a full Idrian unit including UA against Damiano. The table has a scattering of terrain including hills and forests that provide lines of advance with defence against ranged attacks but no hugely dominant pieces. Damiano is going first and has a deployed alongside a battlegroup of three nomads and a marshalled Talon relatively centrally, and has a ten-man unit of halberdiers on either flank. Orin sits behind the battlegroup and Stannis has gone on the left flank. A full trencher boat has parked itself in the middle of the board spread out in a long line to cover the army's advance, and Kell has parked himself in a forest.

    You are about to advance deploy your idrians and choose prey. Who do you prey? Does your answer change depending on your warcaster? (we have mostly discussed Magnus2, but I've also heard idrians discussed as good choices for other warcasters)
    You'll have to forgive a lot of vacuum state theory here (as i typically hate that stuff), but you're basically asking me to semi engage in it on my side of the table, though i recognize you did your best to concisely lay out a scenario.

    Ever seen Wargames ? In this instance, I almost think it doesn't matter all that much what i pick as my prey as none of the options are very good, and there are good anti-idrian counters contained within the caster and list. That said i'll run through the options. I'm curious if you posited this reasonable, yet pointedly anti-idrian loadout on purpose to see if i'd detect it or not.


    Halberdiers: Overkill, though see below: i might actually declare one of these units in recognition of some things, particularly if the terrain is such that it would be more advantageous for the idrians in future turns. The trenchers i'm assuming are spread out enough to make that at least as problematic as they can in terms of counter-threat range, i'm assuming.

    The trenchers are problematic for two reasons: for one thing, the full boat will be hard to wipe out and recycle prey, and they will begin the game in cover. They are also going to partially masking my approach to any of the other stuff i prey. They will likely be surefooted, benefiting from either cover or concealment, and when they attack they'll be dead-eyed and if i'm GtG'd, combined up where necessary for sense making liklihoods to hit. On the non GtG turns they probably won't even need deadeye to do inordinate work here.

    The Nomads are pointless at the start of the game, and situational even later in the game ; if i can cycle prey off onto a mauled one and get some good charges in, maybe, but at the start of the game, nah. Even if a nomad was mauled up where i thought i could take it down and cycle again, there'd have to be no better target.

    Talon: yeah right.

    Orin: Won't be readily easy to get to. Also i only like preying singular models when i think i can quickly get them, nix them, and then cycle.

    Damiano: ditto.

    Stains: Problem is here is that he's a fast support piece: If i prey him, he will simply redeploy out of the way by running, doing so again turn 2 to end up on the other side of the table to supprot Halb unit 2. Meanwhile, my preying idrians have an entire table's worth of hostiles to contend with in order to close ranks to business-dealing distance, and as this is a damiano list, he's got kit to help deal with idrians. So in short, nope, this is a trap. See also note under Orin about preying solos.



    Overall: in this hypothetical i think there is no "ideal" target, though depending on my caster my prey choice might change:

    Mags1 (whom i don't play very much at all), i might make use of Snipe to make the trenchers come to me and prey them ; that said, its a full boat, so cautious advance and into the breach are going to make sure the trenchers still maintain their defense and some smoke throwing. If table state allowed it, i might prey the trenchers with snipe up for one turn, and then charge / run to engage. It's risky, but better better than getting shot to pieces. Alternatively i might Blur them, move up, go to ground to mitigate the worst of the shooting and run/ charge to engage. ANother option is deploy on an extreme flank that has more favorable terrain in relation to the trenchers, picking a halb unit and getting blur from Mags as defense against the trenchers for a turn or two and working to utilize my guns against the halbs for as long as i can. The hope here is that if he commits both halbs and a healthy portion of his trencher boat into my Idrians, then an opening will appear where i can get at some of his other stuff with the rest of my list.

    Mags2 : Probably even less options. I think the best play here is to calamity on the trenchers, pick them, and attempt to get into melee as quick as possible with as little in the way of casualties as possible (no small feat - blocking LOS with jacks is going to result in damage on the jacks, and can't run and then GtG. This one feels pretty cruddy all around. I'm not the best Mags2 player by a long shot so i might be missing something.

    Durgen: I'd prime up the idrians, and likely declare the trenchers, and move to get in with the Trenchers Asap. Force Field can mitigate some of the grenadier blasts that will come my way but probably not for terribly long. Once in Hand to Hand, i'll have an easier time killing them than they will me, and if they do score a hit, i'll take them with me on the kill. Just need to watch my spread. Okay-ish if i can get there, but against Damiano getting there is the problem.

    Daminao: I think i've played them all of once with him, i don't normally consider them, but i'd play the same game i expect the trenchers will, sure foot them up, and deadeye them. Probably the trenchers here as well, though I might take my chances, declare a halb unit and take some pot shots with deadeye at the trenchers while moving to get to working range with the Halbs.


    So in short, in this instance, i'd say in this scenario there's no great Prey target. Depending on exact placing of terrain and the trenchers, i think it's a toss up between the trenchers or halbs, heavily favoring trenchers in most scenarios. In just about all the instances i note above i'm looking to either close ranks to the trenchers to mitigate the worst of the highly accurate shooting.

    In this instance, i'll use them to tie up / do as much damage as they can, but i'm immediately switching gears to look for win conditions that dont' include my idrians as end-game requirements, as I don't think they are going to have as much impact / be around as long as they are in most other matchups.



    Though in fairness, i'm working with my caster and idrians, not a whole list (which is my choice, i could make theoretic lists for all the above... but that's a lot of effort, and i honestly don't think it matters all that much, as the moment i see Damiano with King Maker, i know any high def infantry is in for a rough game. I think it's also fair to say that lots of casters / lists are not nearly as hateful towards idrians as Damiano in Kingmaker.


    Did i pass the test ?

    I'll hit the other ones in your follow up scenarios (though not in as great depth as this one) tomorrow / another day, as those are pretty interesting too.
    Last edited by Mod_Haight; 01-02-2017 at 06:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmike View Post
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    It wasn't really a test, and I picked the list because it's one of the lists I'm currently playing and I'm comfortable with it into mercenaries. I think the responses yourself and Darkwisely have provided highlight the gist of my position; that prey is a rule that provides situational, but not reliable, offensive bonuses. They're often touted as a unit with high offensive output but in more cases than not they will simply be RAT5 RNG10 POW11s or MAT6 RNG0.5 POW12 charges (or POW10 melee attacks) for quite a lot of points.

    All that said it's not exactly a sin to be outmatched as multi-role infantry by Damiano's Trenchers. But we need to be realistic about the capabilities of Idrians as a unit, and the limits they face. In short: 'Idrians are not RAT7'.
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    Judge Robert Shepherd's Avatar
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    Interested in any responses you might have with any of the other hypotheticals. All are either exact or approximate game situations I've played (as or against) in the last few months.

    I would expect you'll find better use of prey in at least some of them (although Una seems an ungodly nightmare for any list with an idrian unit as a keypiece) but I wouldn't expect any of them to see prey impact the game more than situationally and certainly wouldn't ever expect to be reliably able to cycle it in any of them.
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    It wasn't really a test, and I picked the list because it's one of the lists I'm currently playing and I'm comfortable with it into mercenaries. I think the responses yourself and Darkwisely have provided highlight the gist of my position; that prey is a rule that provides situational, but not reliable, offensive bonuses. They're often touted as a unit with high offensive output but in more cases than not they will simply be RAT5 RNG10 POW11s or MAT6 RNG0.5 POW12 charges (or POW10 melee attacks) for quite a lot of points.
    I agree that Prey is merely OK in many situations. Even if you Prey a unit of Halbs and get to shoot the unit you Preyed, it will be the last Prey target you get that game, because one Halb is gonna stay on the board edge.

    However, there are also many situations when Prey is fantastic. If your opponent has Imperatus, I guarantee they're gonna want to use him, and you will get your Prey shots. If it's a unit of Sentinels, same thing. It comes down to if your opponent has anything they spent a meaningful amount of points on that they depend on to do work. If it's just one of 3 Nomands, they can probably just use the Preyed one far from the Idrians till they're thinned out.

    So in general, I think Idrians aren't good into Mercs, because most Merc lists (at least that I build), are all about redundant chaff no single piece of which is remotely indispensable. They'd be great into Cygnar, if they didn't get fried by lightning in almost 100% of those matchups. They're pretty good into a lot of Khador I find. Pretty good into a lot of Protectorate (they tend to invest in lots of support bloat and can't afford not to feed you your Prey).

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    Aight I am here to push this topic back to the original topic.

    IF and I say IF this is true how do you plan on running him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atsuno11 View Post
    Aight I am here to push this topic back to the original topic.

    IF and I say IF this is true how do you plan on running him.
    I'd probably pair him with Fifty Foot Haley.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atsuno11 View Post
    Aight I am here to push this topic back to the original topic.

    IF and I say IF this is true how do you plan on running him.

    Original topic wise, I think Spoilers are bad and I futilely wish they were never given any credence nor attention. I curse my bumping of the thread to the top spot, but that keeps happening anyway.
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    Judge Robert Shepherd's Avatar
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    It's an indulgence in silly hypotheticals, but has anyone had a look at magical weapons in mercs? It's a longer list than I'd expected even before accounting for anything + Aiyanna.
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    I actually have played him three times now and I really don't get what the buzz is about him being so strong and what not.

    I'll lay it out a bit.

    First of all, the story that the OP in the Cygnar forums layed out is utter rubbish. I can not bring myself to believe it. That said, the caster that the guy decribed in there is just too realistic to not be a legit leak from somewhere. Maybe he is friends with a group of playtesters and doesn't want to let on to that? Who knows.

    4 spells is consistent with what caine2 had so I see no issue there. The spells that he has make sense as an evolution of his kit and the feat would be a logical continuation as it pushes damage.

    During the games I played I had a lot of fun with the caster he is pretty unique and his toolbox is great, he also gets a lot of things done by himself. Something he and his crew do not accomplish is staying alive. You better squeeze these cheeks each turn because as soon as Caine's goons get shot off the table your caster just lost half of his abilities and is even more vulnrable due to the loss of swift hunter.

    To be honest though at this point I would be dissapointed if these leaks werent at least somewhat true, I really don't know what else they would do with the caster if not this.

    Also Robert is right, the list of people with magical guns in mercs is quite long and most of them are pretty potent.

    Anything with Ayana and Holt (its idrians, fight me slaede.)
    Gunmages
    Croe's gun (just the leader)
    Devil Shadow Mutineers
    Kell
    Eyriss1+2
    Taryn
    Gastonne
    Harlan

    In fact it is so many magical guns that you will be hard pressed to put them all in the same list.
    Last edited by okgary; 01-03-2017 at 03:02 PM.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Shepherd View Post
    It's an indulgence in silly hypotheticals, but has anyone had a look at magical weapons in mercs? It's a longer list than I'd expected even before accounting for anything + Aiyanna.
    Yeah i thought the exact same thing. I was certain it was going to be a small handful. I was pretty pleasantly surprised. Thing is the (and i agree here) thought exercise purported to possibly be "magic guns" and not magic weapons. If that were the case, that cuts down on things tremendously. It was nebulous though, even in the "spoiler" thread, with that OP saying "it was maybe magic guns".

    Magic guns:

    Damianos gun for a two caster game, Cyphon's mind wipe can't ever be utilized but it is magic, croe's hiss, pistols and cursed pistols on the Mutineers, literally all of Eiryss's stuff - i'm pretty sure she has magic socks, Gaston's Soul Reaver (that's got some serious potential with the feat.. not easy button without TK, but still... potential), versh's gun (situational potential, but when realized kinda nasty), Kell's silence, taryn's guns.

    Which is still a good amount. That said, hypothetically if it were to extend to all magic weapon damage, there is a surprisingly high amount of magic weapon damage in Mercs.

    EDIT: i just did a run through in cygnar... there may be more magic guns in mercs than there is in cygnar now that i look at it, which i was not expecting. A large amount of the magic guns in cygnar are on casters.
    Last edited by Mod_Haight; 01-03-2017 at 05:19 PM.
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  33. #33
    Destroyer of Worlds stereynolds's Avatar
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    Don't forget Thorn gunmages come out before he does for extra magic weapons!

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    Aiyana and Holt are an auto include. Magic Guns on a stick and/or harm for +4 dmg swing (with calamity) and they even bring a pair of pow 12 (14 with calamity) guns.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaede View Post
    Idrians are a great ranged unit? In my experience they are 20 easy points for the other guy.
    As Lowking has said, you definitely have a bad batch. Mine generally are my opponents #1 target, and they get the last one about turn 4 when it's too late. Dropped a Khador Gun Carraige with a Turn1 CRA and Turn2 charge from 4 of them the other day. It was the prey target, and in that activation I switched prey to Saxon Orrik (killed him) and Beast09 (13 damage).
    Quote Originally Posted by jandrese View Post
    I do have to say that I'm impressed how often the Protectorate is willing to mix flamethrowers and cloth banners. I wonder if we have asbestos mines somewhere in the Protectorate?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyknightV6 View Post
    As Lowking has said, you definitely have a bad batch. Mine generally are my opponents #1 target, and they get the last one about turn 4 when it's too late. Dropped a Khador Gun Carraige with a Turn1 CRA and Turn2 charge from 4 of them the other day. It was the prey target, and in that activation I switched prey to Saxon Orrik (killed him) and Beast09 (13 damage).
    I would argue it is you who has the bad batch for having opponents that would allow you to take out a prey target as manueverable long ranged and sturdy as a Gun Carriage on turn 2.
    Last edited by Slaede; 01-04-2017 at 09:16 AM.

  37. #37

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    Sexy on the paper. I will test this in a scenario/KTC idea, in a pairing with my Magnus2 list:

    Caine3 & Buddys [+26]
    * Gallant
    * Talon
    * Talon
    * Talon
    * Sylys
    Lady Ayiana & Holt
    Thorn Gun Mages
    Thorn Gun Mages
    Gastonne Crosse
    * Buccaneer
    Harlan Versh
    Kell Bailoch
    Orin Midwinter
    Rhupert Carvalo
    Taryn Di la Rovissi

    Warjack points are not spoiled, I'm based on Grim2.
    First try on the 'casters: maximize magical guns for feat (turn 2 if attrition/scenario, turn 3 for assassination), and have some troops for jam.
    With Magnus2, I re-discover the pleasure of Freebooter and two hand throw, and maybe Gallant is worth than 2 Freebooters.
    Will see.
    Last edited by Kaelis; 01-04-2017 at 06:58 AM.

  38. #38
    Judge Robert Shepherd's Avatar
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    I appreciate what you're building for, but even with the talons that is a brutally light-on list.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaede View Post
    I would argue it is you who has the bad batch for having opponents that would allow you to take out a prey target as manueverable long ranged and sturdy as a Gun Carriage on turn 2.
    Ah, the age old "your opponents aren't as good as my opponents" counter. Classic.

    Perhaps this is a conversation you gentlemen could take to a different thread? As much as I PRAY this isn't the rules for Caine 3 I'd like to prepare for that possiblity.

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    Ok, so if the feat stays that way, I can make a Galleon-DeathStar with Aiyana+Gaston+Dougal that can shoot 23" away, and every ranged damage is 3d6, even the Harpoon?
    Nice.
    It's a pity they'll probably change it.
    Last edited by Aries; 01-05-2017 at 02:15 AM.

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