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  1. #41
    Destroyer of Worlds mikethefish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atsuno11 View Post
    Ah, the age old "your opponents aren't as good as my opponents" counter. Classic.

    Perhaps this is a conversation you gentlemen could take to a different thread? As much as I PRAY this isn't the rules for Caine 3 I'd like to prepare for that possiblity.
    Wouldn't worry too much - these stats are pretty obviously bogus

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikethefish View Post
    Wouldn't worry too much - these stats are pretty obviously bogus
    Care to clarify? Nothing about him is overly absurd (except maybe Ryan). He has a wide toolbox that is limited by being Focus 6. Nothing about him is any more powerful than other models that exist and he's not that difficult to kill, either.

    I will admit, I struggle with it. Not necessarily from a game play perspective but a character perspective. Caine not natively having true sight bothers me, as does the lack of a teleport. I know that the books don't equal rules but they made a big deal in the books about him teleporting groups of people at a time. It seems like a pretty logical step is for him to A) continue doing that and B) get better at it, now that he rolls with partners.

    Nothing about this Caine feels much like Caine, more like generic Gun Mages with some spells tagged on. I hope you're right because I don't like his rules; I don't care how good they are on the table.
    Last edited by atsuno11; 01-06-2017 at 07:32 AM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by atsuno11 View Post
    Ah, the age old "your opponents aren't as good as my opponents" counter. Classic.

    Perhaps this is a conversation you gentlemen could take to a different thread? As much as I PRAY this isn't the rules for Caine 3 I'd like to prepare for that possiblity.
    Whether his opponents are better than mine or no, allowing your prey target to be charged by the aggressor on turn 2 when it can trample 11", shoot from long range and repo 3" is at or near the pinnacle of incompetent play. Remember, my post was in response to his suggestion that my opponents, whose Idrians I slaughtered easily, were a bad batch.

    As to the fake Caine3 rules, they seem fake.

  4. #44
    Conqueror Swashbuckler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atsuno11 View Post
    Nothing about this Caine feels much like Caine, more like generic Gun Mages with some spells tagged on. I hope you're right because I don't like his rules; I don't care how good they are on the table.
    I also dislike this probably fake Caine3. I sure hope this release is much more interesting than just being a Calamity bot, something that Magnus2 can already be.
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  5. #45
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    Well, the calamity portion was spoiled by pp so that's quite real.
    Signatures take too much space.

  6. #46
    Destroyer of Worlds mikethefish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atsuno11 View Post
    Care to clarify? Nothing about him is overly absurd (except maybe Ryan). He has a wide toolbox that is limited by being Focus 6. Nothing about him is any more powerful than other models that exist and he's not that difficult to kill, either.

    I will admit, I struggle with it. Not necessarily from a game play perspective but a character perspective. Caine not natively having true sight bothers me, as does the lack of a teleport. I know that the books don't equal rules but they made a big deal in the books about him teleporting groups of people at a time. It seems like a pretty logical step is for him to A) continue doing that and B) get better at it, now that he rolls with partners.

    Nothing about this Caine feels much like Caine, more like generic Gun Mages with some spells tagged on. I hope you're right because I don't like his rules; I don't care how good they are on the table.
    I mean that I am familiar with the source of where these stats, and they are far from reliable. Folks are talking like these are the real thing, and that's just very far from the case.

    It's possible that these are accurate, but it's more possible that these are bogus

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikethefish View Post
    I mean that I am familiar with the source of where these stats, and they are far from reliable. Folks are talking like these are the real thing, and that's just very far from the case.

    It's possible that these are accurate, but it's more possible that these are bogus
    Gotcha. Thanks.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by whats82 View Post
    Well, the calamity portion was spoiled by pp so that's quite real.
    True but I think we want something more exciting and faction shifting along with calamity.

  9. #49
    Destroyer of Worlds stereynolds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atsuno11 View Post
    True but I think we want something more exciting and faction shifting along with calamity.
    A new caster...Any new Caster would be a nice thing at the moment for Mercs

  10. #50
    Destroyer of Worlds Postin Dirty's Avatar
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    can we please get back on to the real topic of how amazing a player Slaede is and how awful Idrians are?
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  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postin Dirty View Post
    can we please get back on to the real topic of how amazing a player Slaede is and how awful Idrians are?
    He is a terrific player and I am glad I didn't see him at the WTC, I would have been too scared to play him with my bottom tier garbage lists that include Idrians.

  12. #52
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postin Dirty View Post
    can we please get back on to the real topic of how amazing a player Slaede is and how awful Idrians are?
    This post is beneath you.
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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    This post is beneath you.
    Well, he is postin' dirty.

  14. #54
    Destroyer of Worlds Postin Dirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okgary View Post
    He is a terrific player and I am glad I didn't see him at the WTC, I would have been too scared to play him with my bottom tier garbage lists that include Idrians.
    I'm surprised your Idrians didn't melt in their tray just by being in his proximity


    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    This post is beneath you.
    I'm trying a new tactic of killing with kindness after he declared Ashlynn as unplayable trash and that all merc solos need to be dropped to the 2-3pt range
    Last edited by Postin Dirty; 01-08-2017 at 05:34 PM.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postin Dirty View Post
    I'm surprised your Idrians didn't melt in their tray just by being in his proximity



    I'm trying a new tactic of killing with kindness after he declared Ashlynn as unplayable trash and that all merc solos need to be dropped to the 2-3pt range
    You should try coming up with even one thing she's good enough at to allow her a prayer against the best armies out there instead.

    Almost all solos across all factions need to be dropped in cost to bring them into line with their actual value as should be apparent to anyone with a dim grasp of probability, the ability to count boxes and to assess total potential output for the cost. There is a reason Mad Dog spam was king of the world a month ago, Griffon spam is the new hotness, Bunny spam is considered a top Merc list, and solo spam never will be.
    Last edited by Slaede; 01-08-2017 at 05:53 PM.

  16. #56
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    A dim grasp of probability and ability to count boxes you may have, but you lack hindsight. I've seen a solo spam meta. It wasn't the worst, but for as long as the game intends to embrace the models emblematic of it (warcasters, warlocks and their battlegroups), we can't return to the time when the Ogrun Bokur was the best light warjack by a wide margin and capable of one-rounding heavy warjacks.
    Last edited by Robert Shepherd; 01-08-2017 at 06:10 PM.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Shepherd View Post
    A dim grasp of probability and ability to count boxes you may have, but you lack hindsight. I've seen a solo spam meta. It wasn't the worst, but for as long as the game intends to embrace the models emblematic of it (warcasters, warlocks and their battlegroups), we can't return to the time when the Ogrun Bokur was the best light warjack by a wide margin and capable of one-rounding heavy warjacks.
    And I'm not advocating for what you say. I just want a reason to use 2/3 of the solos sitting in my box because I can get better value elsewhere.

  18. #58
    Destroyer of Worlds Postin Dirty's Avatar
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    Just play them then. Its your own fault if you're upset at leaving models in a box
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postin Dirty View Post
    Just play them then. Its your own fault if you're upset at leaving models in a box
    Heh. Go tell it to the Skorne forum.

  20. #60
    Destroyer of Worlds Postin Dirty's Avatar
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    Got the skorne memes page for that, its great

    actually, I did say this heaps till I traded all my skorne for mercs. Including Ashlynn and heaps of solos
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  21. #61
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postin Dirty View Post
    Got the skorne memes page for that, its great
    Eh, found it's quality waned under the weight of it's echos.
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  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    Eh, found it's quality waned under the weight of it's echos.
    Clearly, the Skorne Memes Page is no longer competitive in the Angry Norway meta. I think it needs an errata...
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  23. #63
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Chris View Post
    Clearly, the Skorne Memes Page is no longer competitive in the Angry Norway meta. I think it needs an errata...
    You are bizarrely attached to the meta line, which as a phrase works on several levels
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  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaede View Post
    And I'm not advocating for what you say. I just want a reason to use 2/3 of the solos sitting in my box because I can get better value elsewhere.
    Oh noes! It's the solos that are now weak rather than the warbeasts and warjacks - the models that got players into the game in the first place. If between solos, units, and beasts/jacks one is going to be weak (and this is the case) I'd rather it was the solos.

  25. #65
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    I dont necessarily agree that solos are weak, but I dont see Slaede saying that he wants solos to be better than Warjacks/warbeasts/whatever.

    As I understand it he's simply arguing that in his experience they're not cost effective.

    Counter his actual argument instead making straw man arguments.

    Personally I like that I'm seeing less solos then in mkII and my theory is that PP priced solos a little on the expensive side because they want them to be used in a support role and as point fillers.
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  26. #66
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    Slaede's stated position is that he wants solos to be as worth their points as he feels warjacks are. That's reasonable. However, when you examine many of the changes he proposes, it seems to me and some others that the likely (but not certain) impact is a return to the Mk2 standard (or close to it), where there were a large number of extremely aggressively costed, high-capability solos that only ended up not making it into lists because they were either character restricted or you forcibly weaned yourself off them to avoid support bloat.

    Also, reasonableness or unreasonableness of position notwithstanding, he's an absolutist (making caveated statements don't preclude this) so there's a seriously high effort overhead to have a conversation with him via text. Most of us could probably have quite a nuanced conversation with him over a pint-or-other-beverage, but on a forum it takes far too long to unpick the exceptions to the if-X-then-always-Y statements and it ends up being so frustrating that you'd rather just snipe at the self-important bugger from the metaphorical ramparts.

    It's not a good faith engagement, but also uughhhhh *slumps back in chair and stares melodramatically at cieling*.
    Last edited by Robert Shepherd; 01-09-2017 at 04:22 AM.
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  27. #67
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    In Slaede's full and frank defence: he's a little annoying to read, but I can follow the train of thought he presents even if I disagree with it, and he has never insisted that two points of armour on a heavy is only worth a single point. Which is being insisted by multiple posters over on the Protectorate of Menoth forums today.

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  28. #68
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    The fact that Slaede is our Soulblighter equivalent actually does say some favorable things about this forum, when you think about it in comparison.
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  29. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Shepherd View Post
    In Slaede's full and frank defence: he's a little annoying to read, but I can follow the train of thought he presents even if I disagree with it, and he has never insisted that two points of armour on a heavy is only worth a single point. Which is being insisted by multiple posters over on the Protectorate of Menoth forums today.

    Do not go there. It is dark and full of terrors.
    I appreciate that we, and specifically you, are able to see the value and logic in other people's posts. That's part of what attracted me to mercs in the first place.

    Also, for those of us just catching up, are the take home notes as follows:

    • Fake Caine is fake
    • Slaede is everyone's frenemy
    • We're still fighting about solos
    • We're still not really acknowledging that some people play for fun and others play for competition and that huge swathes of arguments could be avoided if we did

  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Shepherd View Post
    Slaede's stated position is that he wants solos to be as worth their points as he feels warjacks are. That's reasonable. However, when you examine many of the changes he proposes, it seems to me and some others that the likely (but not certain) impact is a return to the Mk2 standard (or close to it), where there were a large number of extremely aggressively costed, high-capability solos that only ended up not making it into lists because they were either character restricted or you forcibly weaned yourself off them to avoid support bloat.

    Also, reasonableness or unreasonableness of position notwithstanding, he's an absolutist (making caveated statements don't preclude this) so there's a seriously high effort overhead to have a conversation with him via text. Most of us could probably have quite a nuanced conversation with him over a pint-or-other-beverage, but on a forum it takes far too long to unpick the exceptions to the if-X-then-always-Y statements and it ends up being so frustrating that you'd rather just snipe at the self-important bugger from the metaphorical ramparts.

    It's not a good faith engagement, but also uughhhhh *slumps back in chair and stares melodramatically at cieling*.
    If you can't be arsed to present a counter-argument to move the conversation along in a good faith engagement as you say then what is the point? That you take shots without engaging is not lost on me and is also annoying. My interest is in having as much of the Merc faction (hell, all the factions) competitive and not broken as possible. It's not just solos that are overpriced, but High Shields, Rocinante, OAC and a slew of other things with which you have explicitly agreed at some point. I have also seen your lists on Five Fingers and whether you state it or not, you implicitly agree by omission that a large number of merc options are simply not worth their cost. In my opinion, if most solos were to come down a point or two, it would let you get one more solo into a list in most cases, and it would still be a really bad idea to cram a bunch of them into an army.

    As to being an absolutist, I don't know exactly what you mean. I can accuse you of the same thing Mr. "Kingmaker or GTFO". If you don't want to present reasons as to why you think I am wrong about something, why should I care about what you have to say?

  31. #71
    Destroyer of Worlds Postin Dirty's Avatar
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    And we wonder why Slaede isn't taken seriously

    Never change
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  32. #72
    Judge Robert Shepherd's Avatar
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    It's nice to know he reads my content.
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  33. #73
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xintas View Post
    Also, for those of us just catching up, are the take home notes as follows:

    • Fake Caine is fake
    • Slaede is everyone's frenemy
    • We're still fighting about solos
    • We're still not really acknowledging that some people play for fun and others play for competition and that huge swathes of arguments could be avoided if we did
    In terms of this thread, I wouldn't say anyone has presented thoughts outside of a competitive circumstance, so the "for fun" statement, while valid in and of itself, wouldn't prevent the arguments here.
    Plus value of Idrians/Prey being contested.
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    I don't really get it: I read almost all the posts in the mercs forum and in my opinion you two Robert Shepherd and Slaede are in agreement 90% of the time. As Angry Norway said before you're both Sith Lordy but I will had that Slaede is more Darth Vader blunt approach when Robert is more Palpatine style .
    Anyway I really value both your opinions "inside competitive circumstance" (have you been outside ever?) and I am not the only one so I suggest you two can organised a join interview of several hours for a complete mercs review .

  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koalafrog View Post
    I don't really get it: I read almost all the posts in the mercs forum and in my opinion you two Robert Shepherd and Slaede are in agreement 90% of the time. As Angry Norway said before you're both Sith Lordy but I will had that Slaede is more Darth Vader blunt approach when Robert is more Palpatine style .
    Anyway I really value both your opinions "inside competitive circumstance" (have you been outside ever?) and I am not the only one so I suggest you two can organised a join interview of several hours for a complete mercs review .
    We can call the interview segment "Two Men Enter, One Man Leaves"
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  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koalafrog View Post
    I don't really get it: I read almost all the posts in the mercs forum and in my opinion you two Robert Shepherd and Slaede are in agreement 90% of the time. As Angry Norway said before you're both Sith Lordy but I will had that Slaede is more Darth Vader blunt approach when Robert is more Palpatine style
    Huh, I don't know if I see the resemblance. :P
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  37. #77
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koalafrog View Post
    As Angry Norway said before you're both Sith Lordy but I will had that Slaede is more Darth Vader blunt approach when Robert is more Palpatine style
    I regret that inference, as I am in turmoil. Is in the ironic hypocrisy of the remark understood and there's a high level conversation with the basis in Star Wars lore, or just convenient handwaving of it as the Idrian Civil Conflict rises and falls?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Shepherd View Post
    Huh, I don't know if I see the resemblance. :P
    I opened the thread and auto-generated a question. It was answered by reading the thread.
    If only more people knew about that.
    To be honest I'd be more inclined to say you're Darth Bane (Applicability of trends and experience, no association with....questionable......associated movie trilogies.....)

    My path from here is clear.
    Last edited by Angry Norway; 01-10-2017 at 05:55 AM.
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  38. #78
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Shepherd View Post
    In has never insisted that two points of armour on a heavy is only worth a single point.
    When you told me this is person I literally could not process your statement. Took about five reads for me to comprehend what the words meant.

    Terrors indeed.
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  39. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    I regret that inference, as I am in turmoil. Is in the ironic hypocrisy of the remark understood and there's a high level conversation with the basis in Star Wars lore, or just convenient handwaving of it as the Idrian Civil Conflict rises and falls?



    I opened the thread and auto-generated a question. It was answered by reading the thread.
    If only more people knew about that.
    To be honest I'd be more inclined to say you're Darth Bane (Applicability of trends and experience, no association with....questionable......associated movie trilogies.....)

    My path from here is clear.
    The extended universe has been retconned.

  40. #80
    Destroyer of Worlds Postin Dirty's Avatar
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    I guess that makes me jar jar binks or some such
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