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  1. #1
    Conqueror ofthez's Avatar
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    Default Sooo... Haley 1 is...

    After last Errata, it is clear where PP stands in regards of the most errated skill in PP's history! Temporal Barrier it is!

    Seeing Haley 2 losing the original spell that gave her the flaires Time warping theme (deceleration), "well yes we still have Temp Acceleration ". And seeing the Time aproach with Sight instead of the previous way PP approached the Theme.

    Knowing That PP had to place her on the bench for there next model design in mind and how the community reacted to it


    How would YOU! redesign her to be more playable and player friendly on the table vs these new comers!

    It could be just redesigning temp barrier, or her spell list or even the feat! (that feat feels lots like kara)
    Anyway! comments Bellow!
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  2. #2

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    I imagine that Haley 1 will still be errated. Anyway Temporal Barrier has always been a problematic spell to be balanced.
    I tend to believe that currently the warcaster is getting closer to what PP wants but not for the community.

    But I am convinced that Temporal Barrier will very soon be modified and personally, I just radically change Temporal Barrier.
    My idea would be a spell that gives repulsor field to all models in its battlegroup !
    Last edited by Pasequer; 12-30-2016 at 11:50 PM.

  3. #3
    Destroyer of Worlds Lamoron's Avatar
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    Remove speed manipulation entirely, reduce to cost 3. Pretty much done.

  4. #4
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ofthez View Post
    After last Errata, it is clear where PP stands in regards of the most errated skill in PP's history! Temporal Barrier it is!
    Surely one of Gaspy2 card items reigns supreme?

    Actual point of the thread wise, just get rid of it entirely and replace with something else. Sod it, throw Quicken on, makes an interesting choice with Arcane Shield and Storm Lancer units.
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  5. #5
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamoron View Post
    Remove speed manipulation entirely, reduce to cost 3. Pretty much done.
    And add old SPD debuff to the feat... or feat also gives Reposition[3"] or [5"]. Although Reposition means that she is no longer work with Trencher Infantry, but it will be better than nothing.

    If Deadeye is replaced by an usable offensive spell then she can make use of a Lancer....

    Anyway, it seems that Temporal Barrier nerf was not for the balance issue, but for the newbies. Although PP staff explained that it was intended to buff Cryx, but who belives that?
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  6. #6
    Conqueror ofthez's Avatar
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    I had this discussion with friends about it where we were saying that temp barrier was always like a feat, but every turn. H1 could still be strong and great if there would be an overall rework in the spell list. Quicken to replace tb would be a great asset. My suggestion is, make her feat the mk1 tb -3def, -3mouvement and cannot make orders in controle area.

    We would play her like a spell caster that way, she would still have that haley feeling and would be a good caster without being totaly broken. At the same time she would be fun to play since we would have a 7 foc caster without a 4 foc tax
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  7. #7
    Moderator Mod_Haight's Avatar
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    Very simple.

    Remove the speed debuff clause from temporal barrier completely. Make TB 3 cost again like it was in MK1.

    Voila.



    All kidding aside: the speed debuff in MK3 is not anywhere near as powerful a thing as it was in MK1-2, because speed penalities no longer keep you from charging, which is why the errata is as head scratching as it is. This is why H2 Time Bomb nerf to directly hit is not that big a deal. By keeping Temporal Barrier's speed debuff in command and "while beginning its activation", it has almost functionally removed that aspect of the spell from the spell unless you are playing a Centurion.

    I would rather the speed clause be removed and the cost reduced, because we're paying the same inflated MK2 rate for the spell for great reduced effectiveness. I'd rather give up the speed debuff in total if we could go back to the spell costing 3 focus and just providing a defense debuff. I mean at this rate if after 12 years, and 3 editions and four nerfs TB is still a bugbear to noobs, just nix the speed debuff already, but make her signature spell cost 3 and we're good.

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  8. #8
    Conqueror ofthez's Avatar
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    At 1st glance, this seems like a solution haight... the thing with that is, will we see more play of h1 after this change? Tdoes this brings excitement game play wize?

    I am to say, try it out on youre side with friends and you will see for a couple of games that not only is she blend, also she lacks choice in list building. The caster that way is also just not fitting vs what she will be against due to the fragile nature of the caster.

    Try it and you will see that we need to let go of tb all together and make tb original her feat.

    Plus she allready has dead eye, do we realy need annother debuff def on top of having buff spell and buff unit such has rangers??

    This is the real question to ask here... 3foc tb was what i had in mind... this will not bring h1 to the tables. It is a patch job at best
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  9. #9
    Moderator Mod_Haight's Avatar
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    Ah, I see, i think i misunderstood the nature of the thread.


    It's a difficult prospect because fundamentally changing one of the games mascots is difficult. That said, assuming a shake up were okay, this is what I would like to see:

    Make feat MK1 temporal barrier (-3 def, can't declare charges or slams while (within? completely within?) control area, half movement in control area).

    Remove TB from the card. Give Temporal Acceleration. This would preserve theme and design intent and would preserve caster operation (just swapping feat for turn to turn capability and vice versa).


    Quicken is a neat idea, but a little boring despite being very good. I suppose it would be somewhat thematic. My issue with Quicken is that she then becomes a buffbot with a debuff / defensive feat. We have a couple casters like that already. The cool thing about Haley1 was her ability to be simultaneously defensive, and very offensive. It was a neat see-saw to balance. Any changes made i'd want to preserve that delicate balance between defensive and offensive styles.
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  10. #10

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    The solution that everyone is throwing out (remove -2 SPD from TB, change cost to 3) would be a good first step. This would fix one of the most glaring issues with the current version of H1, that her signature spell is overcosted/underpowered.

    So, if this change were made, what kind of caster would we have. Captain Haley would still have her turn of extra attacks (feat), disruption on demand (Scramble), some spell cancellation (Arcane Vortex), an armor buff (AS), some nukes, and a whole heap o' accuracy buffs (deadeye and TB).

    Not a bad kit now. But focusing so heavily on accuracy buffs in a faction that is already very accurate, is perhaps not necessary. As well, she no longer can protect her army from the approaching horde of stuff.

    Haley1 was heavily nerfed, not because she was overpowered in MK3, but because she wasn't fun to play against. Since she did nothing but lose power in the errata, and it is pretty clear that she was not above the power curve before that, I think it is fair to say that she is way less powerful now.

    Some ideas that I personally like (I do not know if these will fix her, break her, whatever. I just think these would help):
    (Each of these assumes that the new TB would cost 3, and only provide a def debuff. )

    - Change TB to upkeep: Okay, bear with me. This would definitely make her more focus efficient. But this would open up some weaknesses. Upkeeps can be removed in a variety of ways. It would leave an already squishy caster vulnerable to purgation. And this does mean no AS on Haley.

    AND/OR

    - Add -2 SPD debuff in control to the feat: So, this would potentially make the feat much more powerful than normal feats. But it is less powerful than her previous incarnation, and also less oppressive.

    AND/OR

    - Remove Deadeye, add another spell: As much as I dislike giving up another deadeye for Cygnar, the truth is that H1 doesn't need it. Instead, I personally would love to have access to quicken in faction. That would, however, always go on Stormlances. Maybe just a +2 SPD upkeep for a battlegroup model. It would hardly break the bank in threat extensions. Or maybe admonition, which would fit thematically (Haley pulls a model back in time to protect it).

    AND/OR

    Give her a nuke worth bringing an arcnode for: Little Haley from H3 has Force Hammer AND Chain Blast. Maybe H1 could bring one of those with her. Either of them would be great for a spell slinger. Or even give her an upkeepable TB offensive spell that gives -2 SPD and DEF to model/unit. A sort of weaker crippling grasp that has cost 2.

    AND/OR

    Field Marshal (Arcane Vortex): This would probably be way too much, especially with power-up. It doesn't hurt to dream though.

  11. #11
    Conqueror ofthez's Avatar
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    Hummm it is an interesting solution you are proposing here. Question, do you think that acceleration brings her too close to haley 2 or making it this way, she differenciate herself more due to the regular abilityes + spell list both has? Taking in consideration both feats are control based
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  12. #12
    Conqueror ofthez's Avatar
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    I love ure aproach phoenix

    We are still keeping some control, the basics aspects of the caster wile still retaining a drawback.

    There is a cost for time manipulation and there should be drawbacks such has what you said.

    I love the upkeepable offensive spell that simulates a tb. This one is a super cool idea. Its like time bomb but... different
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  13. #13

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    Yeah, ofthez.

    One of my disappointments with past Haley1 is that she never felt like she could justify an arcnode. Giving her a reason to bring one would be pretty sweet.

    Honestly, I don't mind them changing the good captain for the sake of fun. I just wish that it could be fun for the Haley player as well. Give her something interesting. Isn't that what PP should be striving for: interesting casters who are balanced, fun, and unique? The Haleys are supposed to be control casters, so give Haley1 some control power, but also more flexibility than just casting the same 4 cost spell every turn. That way it takes some skill to use her. She won't just be a one note caster.

  14. #14
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixforger View Post
    Yeah, ofthez.

    One of my disappointments with past Haley1 is that she never felt like she could justify an arcnode. Giving her a reason to bring one would be pretty sweet.

    Honestly, I don't mind them changing the good captain for the sake of fun. I just wish that it could be fun for the Haley player as well. Give her something interesting. Isn't that what PP should be striving for: interesting casters who are balanced, fun, and unique? The Haleys are supposed to be control casters, so give Haley1 some control power, but also more flexibility than just casting the same 4 cost spell every turn. That way it takes some skill to use her. She won't just be a one note caster.
    Yeah. Only Scramble is considerable offensive spell, but I think that you better forget about it until you are really need for it, rather than take a Lancer and waste 10 points.
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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormpuppy_Infantry View Post
    Yeah. Only Scramble is considerable offensive spell, but I think that you better forget about it until you are really need for it, rather than take a Lancer and waste 10 points.
    Scramble would be a good spell to use with an arcnode, if you were already bringing an arcnode. For instance, if a player were bringing a hurricane with Haley1, scramble could be a good spell to arc.

    The problem I see with scramble is that it is a spell that only affects Warmachine. There are plenty of spells like that. Most people wouldn't bring an arcnode if it would only be good into half of the game. But if Haley had another spell that is useful into a bigger portion of WM/H, and could benefit from an arcnode, I think she would be in a much better spot. Again, for instance, making TB an offensive upkeep would be pretty good. In fact, give her that, some kind of speed buff, and maybe tweak her feat and she'd be golden. Not too strong, but fun enough for both players.

  16. #16
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixforger View Post
    One of my disappointments with past Haley1 is that she never felt like she could justify an arcnode. Giving her a reason to bring one would be pretty sweet.
    Why? As in, you just consider Arc Nodes a sweet thing in the game, or because the other Haley's get so much mak time with Thorn, or something else?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    Why? As in, you just consider Arc Nodes a sweet thing in the game, or because the other Haley's get so much mak time with Thorn, or something else?
    It is, admittedly, a lore driven desire. In Haley''s older stories, she''s always going on and on about how great lancers are. She doesn't have too much use for Thorn, outside of Thorn just being good by himself. It would just be nice to have some good spells to throw around.

  18. #18
    Destroyer of Worlds Octavius_Maximus's Avatar
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    How to make people not complain about Haley 1?

    Page 5 seems like a good start. There is a lot of disrespectful comments about players in Mk3 about how playing certain things takes "no skill" which is pretty damn insulting.

    Temporal Barrier should be -2 SPD and -2 DEF in CTRL area from Haley 1 and 4 cost. She was fine. She is now pretty bad compared to other options. Haley 3 outclasses her 99% of the time.

  19. #19
    Destroyer of Worlds The Aegis's Avatar
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    As said in the general topic, it is pretty clear why they nerfed her: They want to bring back melee infantry (and Cryx in particular) into the game, so even while Haley1 wasn't particulary dominating, they nerfed her as part of the package that nerfed all infantry hating gunlines (Caine2, Ossyan and her). Her nerf is substantially a stealth buff to Cryx.

    Actually, I can be fine with that, but the part that I don't understand is why keeping the SPD buff to command instead of changing it.

    It's not even like Harby... At least her feat says "terminates her movement into her command range", so is still usable (while a lot less overwhelming than before)... A thing that works on "initiates his activation within command" (8") is totally useless if the effect is just -2 SPD... Most things can charge your caster anyway (as 10" threat range is where 99% of the models can charge, and -2 is still 8"), and even if you try to make wonky interactions (like using Centurions or Granadiers to stack up debuffs), anything at 8,1" from Haley1 is still uneffected and so can charge her without problems...

    That without even counting shooting.

    Right now, using the SPD part of her spell is a total and clear suicide. I can't figure out a single instance where the -2 SPD is somewhat useful, and I would personally give my internet award to whoever figures out a decent utilize of it.


    If they just removed the -2 SPD part and changed it with something else, or if they removed it and reduced the cost of the spell to 3, I would probably have been fine with the change.
    As it is now, 4 focus is just badly overpriced just for the DEF part, expecially on a caster with already a cheaper attack fixer like Deadeye. Sure, TB works on melee too, but still 4 focus for that is generically too much and I don't see myself casting it outside very narrow corner-cases...


    And also, has anyone understood the -1 WJ point nerf on the top of it? Because that part is even more obscure on a caster that, NPE or not, clearly was not OP or in need of a power reduction (being a second tier caster).
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  20. #20
    Destroyer of Worlds The Aegis's Avatar
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    On possible better ways to fix her:

    1) Remove totally the SPD debuff, lower the cost of TB to 3
    2) Exchange TB with Quicken (making her also an interesting melee caster)
    3) Change the SPD debuff to a movement buff for friendly models
    4) Keep TB as it was, but lower the range to a fixed 12" instead of the actual 16" (still good against melee armies, but forces to play H1 more on the front like in the intent of the change, while range 12" doesn't make it a total suicide.)
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Octavius_Maximus View Post
    How to make people not complain about Haley 1?

    Page 5 seems like a good start. There is a lot of disrespectful comments about players in Mk3 about how playing certain things takes "no skill" which is pretty damn insulting.

    Temporal Barrier should be -2 SPD and -2 DEF in CTRL area from Haley 1 and 4 cost. She was fine. She is now pretty bad compared to other options. Haley 3 outclasses her 99% of the time.
    Aside from the "no skill" thing, that is highly debatable, what I could say about Temporal Barrier is that facing your army, that is already outclassing my shooting AND can circumvent some of my defensive tech (Arlan Strangewayes, Scramble, my infantry due to Deadeye and -2 DEF), all while my own jacks get to a really fun and totally not frustrating DEF 8 SPD 2/3 gets... kinda annoying and open to little to no counters (Outshooting Cygnar isn't exactly easy). It was a nerf which many people deemed necessary since mk1.


    P.s. At times, everyone enjoys playing something that requires little effort while obtaining the maximum possible from it (it's human nature). For me it could be a bunch of characters in a videogame, for someone else may be Banespam. While I cannot STATE old Haley 1 was amongst those, I cannot bar her out because I liked her.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Aegis View Post
    As said in the general topic, it is pretty clear why they nerfed her: They want to bring back melee infantry (and Cryx in particular) into the game, so even while Haley1 wasn't particulary dominating, they nerfed her as part of the package that nerfed all infantry hating gunlines (Caine2, Ossyan and her). Her nerf is substantially a stealth buff to Cryx.

    Actually, I can be fine with that, but the part that I don't understand is why keeping the SPD buff to command instead of changing it.

    It's not even like Harby... At least her feat says "terminates her movement into her command range", so is still usable (while a lot less overwhelming than before)... A thing that works on "initiates his activation within command" (8") is totally useless if the effect is just -2 SPD... Most things can charge your caster anyway (as 10" threat range is where 99% of the models can charge, and -2 is still 8"), and even if you try to make wonky interactions (like using Centurions or Granadiers to stack up debuffs), anything at 8,1" from Haley1 is still uneffected and so can charge her without problems...

    That without even counting shooting.

    Right now, using the SPD part of her spell is a total and clear suicide. I can't figure out a single instance where the -2 SPD is somewhat useful, and I would personally give my internet award to whoever figures out a decent utilize of it.


    If they just removed the -2 SPD part and changed it with something else, or if they removed it and reduced the cost of the spell to 3, I would probably have been fine with the change.
    As it is now, 4 focus is just badly overpriced just for the DEF part, expecially on a caster with already a cheaper attack fixer like Deadeye. Sure, TB works on melee too, but still 4 focus for that is generically too much and I don't see myself casting it outside very narrow corner-cases...


    And also, has anyone understood the -1 WJ point nerf on the top of it? Because that part is even more obscure on a caster that, NPE or not, clearly was not OP or in need of a power reduction (being a second tier caster).
    As pointed out, my adorable SPD 5 jacks have NO pathfinder whatsoever and only a few ways to get it, revolving around certain casters giving it out. I find a terrain in the way, and I look at my jack becoming unable to reach her. Am I within 8"? My SPD is then 3. Even with 2" melee I cannnot reach her. Am I out of 8"? I STILL cannot get to her because I get 6" through. Gimmicky? Maybe. Useful? Indeed. No Centurions required.
    Walls work well too. Put her 1.1" behind one. I cannot charge her, and if I normally could walk to her I suddenly cannot.
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  23. #23
    Destroyer of Worlds Bladestorm's Avatar
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    I suspect that the -2 SPD part wasn't removed completely because the fluff behind temporal barrier has always been that it is a field that slows enemies (and even there bullets) down, helping allies to avoid being killed.

    I don't feel that the spell is in good shape as it is though.

    I agree that dropping cost to 3 and removing the -2 SPD entirely would be the simplest fix, but I have another suggestion:

    Replace the -2 SPD part with friendly or friendly faction models in her control range (or even her command if absolutely necessary, though given Vlad can have effective +2 attack and damage on control, I don't see why it should be) gain +1 DEF.

    I feel that it would maintain the fiction that it helps allies to avoid the slowed enemies attacks, give her back something fairly unique whilst also being thematic with the other Haley versions and even help encourage using some of Cygnar's less popular units with her - as DEF 15 Gun Mages, DEF 14 Precursor Knights and Sword Knights, or Stormguard who are DEF 15 vs charges and DEF 13 against everything else would be more attractive alongside her feat.

    Thoughts?

  24. #24

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    I would like to see barrier swapped for some other spell. I don't need global -2 def debuff: Only use i see for it now is enabling 'lances ranged attacks versus medium def, and for that, i have deadeye.
    Having in mind that all defense stats went down in MK3 for infantry, while 'jacks gained MAT, exactly what needs to happen in game for the current barrier effect to be worth 3+ focus? I don't see it.

    I hope they will playtest her some more, and consider changing her spell set and/or abilities in a way that makes her relevant to the game again.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixforger View Post
    It is, admittedly, a lore driven desire. In Haley''s older stories, she''s always going on and on about how great lancers are. She doesn't have too much use for Thorn, outside of Thorn just being good by himself. It would just be nice to have some good spells to throw around.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Octavius_Maximus View Post
    Page 5 seems like a good start.
    I get where your going, and the position I agree with. Unfortunately I think the Page 5 nomenclature weakens the statement given it's been excised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bladestorm View Post
    I suspect that the -2 SPD part wasn't removed completely because the fluff behind temporal barrier has always been that it is a field that slows enemies (and even there bullets) down, helping allies to avoid being killed.

    Thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bladestorm View Post
    I suspect that the -2 SPD part wasn't removed completely because the fluff behind temporal barrier has always been that it is a field that slows enemies (and even there bullets) down, helping allies to avoid being killed.

    I don't feel that the spell is in good shape as it is though.

    I agree that dropping cost to 3 and removing the -2 SPD entirely would be the simplest fix, but I have another suggestion:

    Replace the -2 SPD part with friendly or friendly faction models in her control range (or even her command if absolutely necessary, though given Vlad can have effective +2 attack and damage on control, I don't see why it should be) gain +1 DEF.

    I feel that it would maintain the fiction that it helps allies to avoid the slowed enemies attacks, give her back something fairly unique whilst also being thematic with the other Haley versions and even help encourage using some of Cygnar's less popular units with her - as DEF 15 Gun Mages, DEF 14 Precursor Knights and Sword Knights, or Stormguard who are DEF 15 vs charges and DEF 13 against everything else would be more attractive alongside her feat.

    Thoughts?
    I like the idea of matching TB to its lore, but this sounds like a weaker, more expensive Temporal Flux, that has a broader range. I'm not sure this would differentiate H1 from H3 enough. Ideally, Captain Haley should be different from her later incarnations, with her own niche.

    Those are my thoughts, anyway.

  28. #28
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    well... I want everyone to think really hard about it and even play test it... A 3foc tb with only -2def, is it REALY the option that will make her see a table again? Think about it for a moment... She already has Deadeye and access to units like rangers, do we really need another thing that will help us hit models?

    Ok... you will feel its fair that TB is 3foc after the change PP pulled on her and... yes we have good reasons to be mad about it knowing they said they will help the 15% not played models seeing more table time. She was already not seeing much table time due to better options and then the December errata happened. They took down the errata thread due to rage....

    Guyz... It is quiet evident. PP is changing the game for fairness and dynamic fun play reasons. YES they released MK3 too soon... Yes PP has admit that they did not do enough play test...

    This is not a Page 5 thread = you should not speak about it
    This is not a We should rage about what happened to Haley1
    This is a PP messed up and needed to change NOW H1 to keep THE fragile portion of the community to have fun without feeling unfair about a prime caster.

    THIS MY FELLOW CYGNARANS is a cause to rally to!
    THIS IS.... SAVE HALEY 1!

    After reading what Matt Wilson wrote on the current insider:
    http://privateerpress.com/community/...der-12-21-2016

    It is back to us to GUIDE PP into finding out what could make Haley1's blend play to be fun and feel fair to players that faces the caster.

    This is why I created this thread!
    This is why I ask of all of us being in the same faction, JOIN US!

    JOIN US IN FINDING SOLUTIONS to get back our 1st love since MK1
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  29. #29
    Destroyer of Worlds SnarlyYow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ofthez View Post
    well... I want everyone to think really hard about it and even play test it... A 3foc tb with only -2def, is it REALY the option that will make her see a table again? Think about it for a moment... She already has Deadeye and access to units like rangers, do we really need another thing that will help us hit models?
    You are exactly right. It's one thing to say: "What is this spell worth in Focus?" and another to say: "Does this spell have any real use in our faction?"

    The killer is command 8. Anything with Speed 5 and Reach, or Speed 6 with 1" Reach can still get to her, so basically everything in the game. It affects speed 4 non-Reach stuff and that's about it and those models are very, very few and far between.

    To me, the answer was really simple. Trade the speed debuff for a defensive buff with similar utility. Such as:

    Enemy models in Haley's Control Area suffer minus 2 defense and cannot charge friendly faction Warrior Models.
    or
    Enemy models in Haley Control Area suffer minus 2 defense and cannot charge models in Haley's Battlegroup.
    or, more specifically:
    Enemy models in Haley Control Area suffer minus 2 defense. Light and Heavy Warjacks in Haley's Battlegroup gain polarity field.


    In the case of the former, it's not like we have a ton of infantry that needs to be charged to die. It would essentially be a speed buff for Warrior Models. In the case of the latter, it would force her to take warjacks. If the concern is not charging a Colossal, something that existed throughout Markii and Markiii, you could word it to exempt colossals.

    What Privateer Press did was unconscionable and truly bewildering. No reduction in cost, no increase in Haley's Command, and it wasn't like Haley1 was problematic. And, here's the rub, I'm an apologist (Look at my signature.) I trust PP to do the right things, to make good gameplay decisions. But this effectively makes Haley unplayable, I don't see what else she does of value (Her feat if still pretty decent). But she can no longer deliver an alpha, she can't keep a gunline freed up, she doesn't crack armor. Basically, all she does is kill troop swarms which is something Cygnar doesn't struggle with to begin with and is something PP has designed the game to limit. To make matters worse, her other spells got worse too, Chain Lightning is okay-ish, but not worth the gamble like it was in MKii. Scramble is adorable and spammable against the right list, though it's funny that it's probably her best spell now but what she wants to do is kill infantry, not be thrown into a Warjack heavy list where the spell would actually be useful. Arcane Vortex remains really good but she doesn't do a ton for the Stormwall otherwise. So....what?
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  30. #30
    Destroyer of Worlds sleet01's Avatar
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    Drop TB for Mk. II Deceleration. It fits the fluff, and a Haley has had it in the past. Keep the Temporal Barrier name, maybe.
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  31. #31
    Conqueror ofthez's Avatar
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    To me SnarlyYow... this is not a Slap to the Cygnar face decision PP made. This is a we bench her temporarely up till we find out how to totaly repackage her.

    In my intro I talked about Haley2 and the rework she went through. Is she like the 1st Haley2 we had? Nope... Does she still has the essence of H2 with the rework they made... YES!!! realy yes!!! I used to feel bad playing her due to her cheezy nature... and I wanted to play her due to her being a non linear warcaster to play with all the options!

    Knowing H2 was totaly reworked and that we still have her essence eventhoe she lost one of her Signature Spell...

    Lets from now on all agree that H1 Needs a total rework just like H2 got... and ask ourselves... What should we repackage her with

    The trown ideas up so far included to take TB all together and incorporate it in the feat, it included new spells to replace the skill or even abilities.

    Let us continue on this tangent, tell me... how would YOU rework her SnarlyYow? how would you repackage her for her to be fun to play?
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  32. #32
    Destroyer of Worlds SnarlyYow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ofthez View Post
    Let us continue on this tangent, tell me... how would YOU rework her SnarlyYow? how would you repackage her for her to be fun to play?
    I did. I said I'd make either troops or warjacks unchargeable, this would make her a troop or warjack caster and maintain her fluff. I fully admit her Mark2 incarnation was unbearable and awful to play against. It'd be real nice if we had a way to deliver Stormblades, maybe make Haley1 that, it would have been great if Maddox had been that caster but, whatever.

    PP's design decisions regarding our infantry are truly bewildering. Why not use an impending nerf on Haley1 to do something to get Stormblades on the table? Why not use a caster like Maddox to do likewise? It's bizarre; truly, truly bizarre. Maybe you're right, maybe this is a "holding pattern" nerf; something PP has literally never done before and never claimed they'd do. If so, why this caster? No one is playing her, what's the problem (upcoming Hurricane, yes.) I get it, I do, then change the damned spell to be useful, not this garbage which totally makes an entire caster nigh on unplayable.
    The game is good.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnarlyYow View Post
    You are exactly right. It's one thing to say: "What is this spell worth in Focus?" and another to say: "Does this spell have any real use in our faction?"

    The killer is command 8. Anything with Speed 5 and Reach, or Speed 6 with 1" Reach can still get to her, so basically everything in the game. It affects speed 4 non-Reach stuff and that's about it and those models are very, very few and far between.

    To me, the answer was really simple. Trade the speed debuff for a defensive buff with similar utility. Such as:

    Enemy models in Haley's Control Area suffer minus 2 defense and cannot charge friendly faction Warrior Models.
    or
    Enemy models in Haley Control Area suffer minus 2 defense and cannot charge models in Haley's Battlegroup.
    or, more specifically:
    Enemy models in Haley Control Area suffer minus 2 defense. Light and Heavy Warjacks in Haley's Battlegroup gain polarity field.


    In the case of the former, it's not like we have a ton of infantry that needs to be charged to die. It would essentially be a speed buff for Warrior Models. In the case of the latter, it would force her to take warjacks. If the concern is not charging a Colossal, something that existed throughout Markii and Markiii, you could word it to exempt colossals.

    What Privateer Press did was unconscionable and truly bewildering. No reduction in cost, no increase in Haley's Command, and it wasn't like Haley1 was problematic. And, here's the rub, I'm an apologist (Look at my signature.) I trust PP to do the right things, to make good gameplay decisions. But this effectively makes Haley unplayable, I don't see what else she does of value (Her feat if still pretty decent). But she can no longer deliver an alpha, she can't keep a gunline freed up, she doesn't crack armor. Basically, all she does is kill troop swarms which is something Cygnar doesn't struggle with to begin with and is something PP has designed the game to limit. To make matters worse, her other spells got worse too, Chain Lightning is okay-ish, but not worth the gamble like it was in MKii. Scramble is adorable and spammable against the right list, though it's funny that it's probably her best spell now but what she wants to do is kill infantry, not be thrown into a Warjack heavy list where the spell would actually be useful. Arcane Vortex remains really good but she doesn't do a ton for the Stormwall otherwise. So....what?
    Actually, the whole "SPD things that can't get to her" part is quite wrong. SPD 5 RNG 1 and SPD 4 RNG 2 will be sad pandas.

    And there are quite a few things out there.

    PoM. Castigator, Fires of Salvation, Blood of Martyrs, Crusader, Templar, Judicator, every light except Blessing of Vengeance and Devout, every unit except cavalry....
    Khador. Juggernaut, Kodiak, Beast 09, Behemoth, Berserker, Mad Dog, Demolisher, Devastator, Drago, Grolar, Ruin, Marauder, Spriggan...
    Seems an awful lot of stuff that unless helped can really only look at Haley 1 funny. This only rapidly looking at 2 factions.

    I get it, you miss the old TB, but be objective. It can still ruin some factions' day and encourages playing forward and using terrain carefully to further distinguish her from Sloan. I see this as an occasion to finally play her now that my opponents will no longer throw a grenade at me for using TB.
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  34. #34
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    I think i'm at the stage of "acceptance" in my grief over the changes to H1. Granted i wasn't playing her in MK3 in favor of other casters as i've noted other places, but i'm at a point where i don't understand the changes, i don't agree with them, but i've just moved on. H1 will remain on my hiatus list for the time being, as i can get the things that her playstyle brings to the table now more effectively with other casters.

    I think the general core rules change of how speed penalties no longer prevent charging was enough of a change to TB that the spell was already reigned in with just the edition change. Further downgrading it while keeping it a 4 cost seems a bit much. The -1 WJ point in addition just sees.... odd.

    She definitely took a significant hit on the totem pole of our casters in my estimation, but moreover, I can scratch the itches H1 scratches now more easily and readily with other casters (both in and out of faction). At first i was going to put a lot of effort into coming up with some suggestions, but i'm at the point where i'm like "Ok. Just more reason to play H2/3, Sloan, Stryker 1/2, Ecaine (and even ecaine i know there's a split camp on now)." It's a bummer, but i'm at the point of acceptance with it.

    If H1 filled some truly unique role in our faction and we had zero other ways to achieve some or lots of what she did, yeah, i'd be super bummed bout... but that's not the case.
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  35. #35
    Destroyer of Worlds The Aegis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ofthez View Post
    To me SnarlyYow... this is not a Slap to the Cygnar face decision PP made. This is a we bench her temporarely up till we find out how to totaly repackage her.
    Actually, my main issue is exactly that it is not true.

    They said clearly and specifically, that while they hear our doubts about the SPD debuff utility, they don't agree with them. They think that the SPD part is playable and fine as it is.

    They also clearly said that their objective with errata models was to never change something they already changed, and that the Skorne rework didn't had any influence on how much time they dedicated to other factions.

    That is the problem. It is not a temporarly solution and they don't think that there is anything to fix, both in H1 and in the underused Cygnar models like Stormguard or Triumph. They clearly stated it (I could cite quotes if you need).

    So, at least if you don't think that the devs directly and willingly lied to us, we have a problem, because our perception of H1 and Cygnar in general is very different from the perceptions of the Dev team at the moment.
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  36. #36

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    @the Aegis - i do not believe devs misinformed us. But I'm afraid there is inherent gap between what dev team has in their closed enviroment and what happens on the actual table.
    Sure, this errata needed to fix up problems in the game, so I'm willing to wait some more to see how our bad units will be buffed. BUT, if you tell me there was not enough time to buff up underperformers and you change H1 pre-emptive in order to stealth buff infantry - that's an obvious disparity.

    At ths point in time, good players have much more credibility with me than the dev team - When our top players tailor a list, that list actually works, while the stuff we get from developers lately..leaves a lot to be desired.

  37. #37
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    Well basicaly Matt Wilson is telling us how much what they do is inconclusive and how they need to run tests like they done between mk1 to mk2...

    They say that they listen to us... I am trying to be constructive here and not let go a cool model, a cool resculpt a cool concept caster since the launch of the game. I rather them seeing us coming up with solution than them seeing us rage and close thread after thread...

    We could abandon... yes we can just let our guards down... or we can work with em to not have only a few casters playable in our arsanal.

    In all honesty... by the end of MK2 I was near to abandon just playing just like i done in mk1 with that feeling of not being listened to by PP in regards of Patch Job VS rework. When MK2 arrived and I realized that to play Cygnar I had to stop playing all my cygnar models and play mercs units, I felt like pp would help out somewhere eventuly... annother big no there... Now the faction still has issues inside it self and I see PP nerfing what is not in the broken portion of the faction... Just like everyone else I felt betrayed by PP's words of bringing the low 15% up a knotch and seeing a portion of the 15% being downgraded.

    I played a faction for a full edition that just did not have good units inside of it, lacked in jack power for cost... I had to take units elsewhere for that entire time... I love the beginning of mk3... I don't want to have that sour feeling again that I had at the end of mk1 and 2 where my units gets to be so bad that I need to take these few niche models that every one plays.

    Still today we have a 90% of our units that were so terribly nerfed or high in cost that they don't see the playing field. Im tired of seeing this trend where we always see the same models on the field due to just the design of them vs there cost in points.

    Then I see them releasing Useless Units like the stormsmith Grenadiers that has a ultra low 6" range with little def vs ranged attks or just killing the Black 13 to release a SOOO ASKED resculpt!!!

    So... there we go... Mods has seen this thread, People wrote there answers in regards of what they see in a H1 model that makes sens stat wize. You got my opinion on this now... Let see where PP make there decision for that model's approach in the near future. I am willing to give the Dev team a chance... Lets hope they start making sense according to what is being write in there design process
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  38. #38
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    I'd honestly have preferred them switching Temporal Barrier for another spell completely. Maybe Quicken or Mirage. TB was never (at least not in Mk2+3) an interesting or fun spell. It was always a no-brainer for one side and frustration for the other. It being technically removed from the game now is something, but I'd have wished PP to be a bit more thoughtful in giving Haley1 something as a replacement.

  39. #39
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hns View Post
    I'd honestly have preferred them switching Temporal Barrier for another spell completely. Maybe Quicken or Mirage. TB was never (at least not in Mk2+3) an interesting or fun spell. It was always a no-brainer for one side and frustration for the other. It being technically removed from the game now is something, but I'd have wished PP to be a bit more thoughtful in giving Haley1 something as a replacement.
    I don't think that it is a good idea to change it to the other spell, but I am agreed to the others. It is still an annoying spell to be face so it can't be helped to nerf it, but I think that there is a better idea than the recent errata.
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  40. #40

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    When the cards for MK3 leaked, and I first saw Captain Haley, I was ecstatic. TB had been nerfed, but not excessively. -2 DEF and SPD was still really good, but with the change that models with debuffed speed could still charge was really good news for people playing into her. Along with that change, though, there were new toys. Scramble did something useful now. It's not always useful, but it has its moments. And her feat affects herself now. That was always a headscratcher when Haley herself couldn't take an extra low-rat handcannon shot. Now she can.

    Haley1 was in a good spot. TB was significantly worse than before, but probably still worth the cost. Changing cannot run or charge to -2 SPD was a big change. Not only can enemy models move further (unless they choose to make a full advance), but being able to charge also grants them the charge bonus to damage. I am not trying to say that she SHOULD have that ability, or that old TB wasn't insanely oppressive. I agree with those sentiments. But this was a major change in the power of TB. -2 SPD and DEF is nowhere near as potent as old TB. And now, -2 DEF in CNTRL and SPD in CMD is very much less powerful than the original MK3 TB. So, taking two massive steps down in power while maintaining the same cost makes the current iteration of TB massively overcosted for what it now does. An effective +2 to hit anything in your caster's 16" control is simply not worth 4 focus in a faction with high attack stats in a game that now favors low defense, high armor.

    What I am getting at, is that Captain Haley used to have a defined role in Cygnar. She ran an excellent infantry gunline. She did so by protecting her troops by slowing down her opponent and increasing the accuracy of her troop's weapons. She also has/had a feat that meshes really well with infantry, because each additional gun meant two attacks during feat turn. She loved the Stormwall because she could increase its armor, grant it an extra attack, and protect it from spells. And she still did most of that in the beginning of MK3. Some of the troop choices changed, some different jacks became good options, but the idea was pretty much the same.

    After this first errata, however, she feels without a place. She does very little to protect her army now. She can bring 2 arcane shields, but that's about it. She can still run a gunline, but not as well. Her troops will quickly be overtaken. So she has to focus on a mixed arms build, which is theoretically a good thing. Except, she doesn't do that very well either. Outside of an armor buff, she doesn't deliver troops very well. We have plenty of casters who do a better job with it. The only things that I can think of to run with Haley1 now, are things that are good with anyone. Stormlances, Trenchers, Gunmage Adepts, and riflemen. She has to take things that protect themselves, because she can't do it now. She can hardly protect herself now.

    Captain Haley needs a niche. Something she does really well, without making the other player feel powerless. Temporal Barrier needs to either become better than it is right now (gaining an additional effect, while dropping the defunct speed debuff), go down in cost/become an upkeep, or just be removed and replaced. I would be down for any of these, because right now she is missing one third of who she is. Haley1 needs a new ability, and it needs to be big because what she lost was big. She already has an uphill battle relying on infantry in a faction that has seriously unbalanced infantry options.

    Ideas for change:
    Change TB to offensive upkeep, compare it to Crippling Grasp when calculating cost
    Change TB so that friendly faction models in her command get cover/set defence
    Drop TB, give her admonition/quicken/pursuit/
    give her a field marshal (polarity field, countercharge [because time warping lets them act first, or something like that], +2 movement?]
    Give her back the WJP she lost. If she's going to be close to H2 and H3 in WJP, then she should be proportionally powerful

    I love warmachine, and Haley1 was my first dedicated caster. I know that she was painful to play into, and I want that to change. But not like this. Now she isn't as hard to play into, because no one wants to put her on the table. PP hear our plea. The Cygnar forum was upset, but not without reason. WM/H has a dedicated following that LOVES this game. We really care about our casters, and want them to be in the power curve AND fun. And we know that you feel the same.

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