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  1. #81

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    As a long time Haley 1 player I can understand why they nerfed the -2 spd aspect of the spell. It was really hard against melee heavy armies, especially slow ones. As I read through the fiction (it makes the enemy attacks easier to avoid) wouldn't it be simple to get rid of the -2 spd and just make it a -2 to attack for enemy units within Haley's control range? This would make her less vulnerable to melee assassinations and give more reason for her to be aggressive and support melee units like Storm knights. Anyway just a thought.

  2. #82
    Destroyer of Worlds Bloodsplatter artist's Avatar
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    Unfortunately blanket -2 mat/rat and defense still sounds slot like a "feat every turn" spell.
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  3. #83
    Destroyer of Worlds phreaker187's Avatar
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    She wasn't a top tier caster before so everyone is confused by the nerf. Maybe PP has some sort of insight that we haven't seen yet that would push her over the top.
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  4. #84
    Destroyer of Worlds Octavius_Maximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodsplatter artist View Post
    Unfortunately blanket -2 mat/rat and defense still sounds slot like a "feat every turn" spell.
    Vlad 1 still has Signs and portents.

    Don't get the problem with high impact per turn casters, myself.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Octavius_Maximus View Post
    Vlad 1 still has Signs and portents.

    Don't get the problem with high impact per turn casters, myself.
    Also remember that Signs and Portents is also a signature spell and it requires the same COST.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorrobard123 View Post
    As a long time Haley 1 player I can understand why they nerfed the -2 spd aspect of the spell. It was really hard against melee heavy armies, especially slow ones. As I read through the fiction (it makes the enemy attacks easier to avoid) wouldn't it be simple to get rid of the -2 spd and just make it a -2 to attack for enemy units within Haley's control range? This would make her less vulnerable to melee assassinations and give more reason for her to be aggressive and support melee units like Storm knights. Anyway just a thought.
    Pls no. Mat 4 Rat 3 jacks are not healthy for my sanity. Especially with average def in Cygnar being 12-13.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by EchoDelta View Post
    Pls no. Mat 4 Rat 3 jacks are not healthy for my sanity. Especially with average def in Cygnar being 12-13.
    Then don't ever play against Haley3... I think +2 DEF on pretty much the whole army would have the same effect on your sanity, and it is a COST 2 spell too!
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorrobard123 View Post
    As a long time Haley 1 player I can understand why they nerfed the -2 spd aspect of the spell. It was really hard against melee heavy armies, especially slow ones. As I read through the fiction (it makes the enemy attacks easier to avoid) wouldn't it be simple to get rid of the -2 spd and just make it a -2 to attack for enemy units within Haley's control range? This would make her less vulnerable to melee assassinations and give more reason for her to be aggressive and support melee units like Storm knights. Anyway just a thought.
    Because why shouldn't Cygnar also get Harbinger's ability, at greater range, target agnostic, and with -2 DEF attached, while have MUCH higher DEF values across the board?
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  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Aegis View Post
    Then don't ever play against Haley3... I think +2 DEF on pretty much the whole army would have the same effect on your sanity, and it is a COST 2 spell too!
    Temporal distortion is at least tied to the three Haleys as opposed to the entire control area and can be ignored with blessed weapons. I can play around temporal distortion. I'd take that over giving everything in a caster's control area -2 to attack rolls on every turn of the game.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormpuppy_Infantry View Post
    Also remember that Signs and Portents is also a signature spell and it requires the same COST.
    I thought Vlad1's signature spell was Blood of Kings?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bladestorm View Post
    I thought Vlad1's signature spell was Blood of Kings?
    Actually, both of them.
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  12. #92
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    We are at 3 pages now. and not even once we were stopped by a mod due to flaming of this subject.

    I want to thank everyone of you in this community to come up with many ways of fixing up Haley1. There is a TON of great ideas here! and I have great hopes that PP's dev team saw out cry for injustice on this killing of the Haley 1 stat changes.

    Let us continue on this tangent of constructive ideas in hopes that we eventually see a resurrection of Haley1
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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikishi View Post
    Temporal distortion is at least tied to the three Haleys as opposed to the entire control area and can be ignored with blessed weapons. I can play around temporal distortion. I'd take that over giving everything in a caster's control area -2 to attack rolls on every turn of the game.
    This is my thought exactly. Besides, I've already won against her, I can handle her.
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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by phreaker187 View Post
    She wasn't a top tier caster before so everyone is confused by the nerf. Maybe PP has some sort of insight that we haven't seen yet that would push her over the top.
    Temporal Barrier has been a very negative play experience since MK I. TB in its original incarnation and even in MK II was a Feat, not a spell. The timing is a little off maybe (probably should have been nerfed in MK II), but this nerf has been a long way coming.


    No, right now she is not a top tier caster - I guess its really just that TB has been so strong for so long.
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  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    Temporal Barrier has been a very negative play experience since MK I. TB in its original incarnation and even in MK II was a Feat, not a spell. The timing is a little off maybe (probably should have been nerfed in MK II), but this nerf has been a long way coming.


    No, right now she is not a top tier caster - I guess its really just that TB has been so strong for so long.
    She wasn't a top tier caster in mkII, or in mkIII. She was good, and unfun but not OP. She wasn't tearing up the tournament scene. Now she's very weak and uninteresting.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixforger View Post
    She wasn't a top tier caster in mkII, or in mkIII. She was good, and unfun but not OP. She wasn't tearing up the tournament scene. Now she's very weak and uninteresting.
    Haley 1 is one of those errata examples where they didn't go for "tears up tournaments" (Karchev/Mad Dogs is an example where they DID). Haley 1 was nerfed because playing against TB has been unfun since the beginning and is still unfun for newer players.


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  17. #97
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    How about keep the 4 cost for -2def -2spd but inside a 5" template placed compleetly inside control
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    Haley 1 is one of those errata examples where they didn't go for "tears up tournaments" (Karchev/Mad Dogs is an example where they DID). Haley 1 was nerfed because playing against TB has been unfun since the beginning and is still unfun for newer players.


    Tournament performance has nothing to do with it.
    The problem is, if you have to change something not because power level, but because it is unfun, you shouldn't also decrease a lot his already fine power level in the process...

    Haley2 or Sloan example dimostrated that they are able to do sidegrades.

    Why then not removing the unfun part (-2 SPD) and sobstitute it with something equally powerful but less unfun? Noone would have complained in that case.

    Even a slight nerf with a little compensation (like removing the SPD part but reducing the cost of the spell to 3) would have worked.


    Why then a straight nerf on an already not top caster? Why doing it in a way that cast serious doubt on the playtest work (keeping it at 8" where it is totally senseless)? Why also the -1 WJ point on the top of it?
    Being not top but unfun doesn't justify a change done like that at all.



    I would have liked the 5" template inside control ofthez, as I would have liked a template of "half moving inside" and -2 DEF, as I would have liked to trade the -2 SPD for a +2 DEF or +2 SPD to friendly, as I would have liked to swap TB for Quicken, ecc... There are tons of possible sidegrades that would have been great, removing the unfun part and keeping her power level pretty much where it was, but sadly it wasn't the case.
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  19. #99

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    How about these:

    1) Change Temporal Barrier to: Enemy models within Haley's control area suffer -2 def. Friendly Faction Models in Haley's Command range gain Set Defense.
    Keep it at 4 cost. It's not the best thing ever, but it's useful now. It's further reaching than H3's TD, but more expensive.

    2) So, I really like arc nodes, and Haley1 really likes arc nodes (in the fluff at least), so maybe give her something for that. Like maybe:
    a) "Talented" (or whatever you want to call it)- While Haley has a warjack in her battlegroup with a functioning arcnode and cortex that is in her control area, Haley may cast one spell from her spell list for free. Haley must arc the spell through said warjack.
    Or
    b) "Natural Talent"- When Haley uses an arc node to cast an offensive spell, the attack roll for the spell is boosted.

    3) No idea about this one, just popped into my head and it might be a bit much. Give her a 4 cost spell called "Temporal Adjustment". Target model/unit. All models in unit/model may be placed completely within 1" of their current position.

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    Haley 1 is one of those errata examples where they didn't go for "tears up tournaments" (Karchev/Mad Dogs is an example where they DID). Haley 1 was nerfed because playing against TB has been unfun since the beginning and is still unfun for newer players.


    Tournament performance has nothing to do with it.


    But she was nerfed just as harshly as would be expected for a top tier, meta bending warcaster. I am perfectly willing to accept that Haley1 needed to be changed. She did not need to be knocked down a few rungs in power though. I really do hope that PP will reconsider Captain Haley's present position, because she really doesn't have much going for her now. There are so many cool things that can be done with her, and with many other casters (in all factions) that are currently out of use.

  21. #101
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    Coming late to this thread.

    So the current cost of the spell is too much for what it does. The spell either needs to be buffed to justify the cost, or the cost needs to be reduced.

    Since just reducing the cost seems boring, I would prefer to buff the spell.

    To keep the defensive tech that TB was for Haley, I would keep it as it is, with the -2 spd with command range, and -2 def in control range, and then add "All models gain +2 def against charges".

    This would be an additional +2 def on top of Set Defense, which would make it very hard to charge Haley. This would also synergize well with the Lancer, Haley's favored warjack.

    Now we have a spell that justifies it's cost, that adds some nice defensive tech for Haley, and doesn't really slow down the opposing army unless they are already in knife range.
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  22. #102
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    Though it is better than nothing, however it doesn't protect our stuffs from the engagement and hardly justifies to pick Haley1. What about to pick Haley3 which just gives +2 DEF and also provides Ghostly to allow your units to be disengage?
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  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormpuppy_Infantry View Post
    Though it is better than nothing, however it doesn't protect our stuffs from the engagement and hardly justifies to pick Haley1. What about to pick Haley3 which just gives +2 DEF and also provides Ghostly to allow your units to be disengage?
    This is the real problem. Haley1 is still a B+ caster, the problem is that there is no more reason to take her over Sloan or Haley3... They simply do her job much better, and she doesn't bring anything particular to compete with them.
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  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Aegis View Post
    This is the real problem. Haley1 is still a B+ caster, the problem is that there is no more reason to take her over Sloan or Haley3... They simply do her job much better, and she doesn't bring anything particular to compete with them.
    I am still have the doubt about Sloan, but to everything else. That's the point of the problem; Being a mediocre or average caster is fine, but making something to be an inferior one only makes negative result.
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  25. #105
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    I played Haley 1 for a while using an assassination type list, Hunters, Rangers, 2 x GMCA, 2 x Rifleman, Defender. With TB, Flare and Mark target you can get a -6 def swing, as well as double shots for everyone, plus potentially 4 shadowfires to get LoS.

    However once Caine 3 comes out I think he will make that Haley 1 Assassination list kinda redundant. Calamity is better than TB as it provides -2 arm as well, you are losing the additional attacks, but if Caine 3 has his rumoured feat and toolkit, that will more than make up for it
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  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    Haley 1 is one of those errata examples where they didn't go for "tears up tournaments" (Karchev/Mad Dogs is an example where they DID). Haley 1 was nerfed because playing against TB has been unfun since the beginning and is still unfun for newer players.


    Tournament performance has nothing to do with it.
    Some people don't like denial. Denial is in a LOT more places in the game than Haley1. Those people should play another game if they don't like being told they can't do something. I hear age of sygmar likes to let people do whatever they want, whenever they want.
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  27. #107

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    There's one role I'm still considering Haley 1 for, that the nerf did not affect overmuch.

    That being, delivering a heavily armored battlegroup against spell lists that would usually counter such warjacks.

    I'm thinking dropping this into things like Wurmwood and Haley 2, take two Centurions, slap Arcane Shield on them both, and camp every turn behind a cloud wall so assassination is difficult and moving my warjacks is harder.
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  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toymachine View Post
    Some people don't like denial. Denial is in a LOT more places in the game than Haley1. Those people should play another game if they don't like being told they can't do something. I hear age of sygmar likes to let people do whatever they want, whenever they want.
    Personally, 'my' stance is like as you, but I do think that it is also need to consider the people that doesn't share the same feeling. Denial is more annoying than just destroys something. For example, I remember that, in Magic: the Gathering, counterspell(prevent to playing a card when a player is about to play it) cause more annoyance than let play it then destroy it immediately by a instant spell(cards that can play at any time), although both have almost the same result in the most times unless the play itself trigger an effect.

    Some denial needs to be exists, but too hard denial is not so good. We are play the game with each other, not playing solitaire.

    I like denials very much, but it is also annoying to face. I can accept to face any denials because the opponent can do as same as me to win, but not all of us are able to accept this so easy. Not all of us are feels so bad about that, but someone does.

    Well, I need to say that I have the grievance about the errata. It can't be helped that Haley1 is nerfed because it is annoying to face(even consider that she is not the top caster). But, not like this.
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  29. #109
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    Maybe there's some way of switching her feat and TB. -2 def and speed with no run charge is a sold feat turn
    Then give her some sort of extra attack spell like broadside or something. Although being to battlegroup gunline focused would leave her a little to close to Haley 2 and Sloan's intended play style. Would a spell letting FF grunts make 2 attacks be to strong even at 4 cost? Maybe a 4 cost damage version of guided fire but only for troopers?
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  30. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodsplatter artist View Post
    Maybe there's some way of switching her feat and TB. -2 def and speed with no run charge is a sold feat turn
    Then give her some sort of extra attack spell like broadside or something. Although being to battlegroup gunline focused would leave her a little to close to Haley 2 and Sloan's intended play style. Would a spell letting FF grunts make 2 attacks be to strong even at 4 cost? Maybe a 4 cost damage version of guided fire but only for troopers?
    I'm not sure how I would feel about this being implemented. A spell that gives an extra attack, or boosted damage rolls, to a unit would definitely need to be limited to once per turn. Outside of that, I don't think it would be worthwhile most of the time. A big bonus for Blitz as a feat is that Solos benefit from it, and with Cygnar's big stable of awesome solos, that's pretty great. A damage buff for a unit of troopers would be interesting, and might inspire me to take a unit of long gunners. That would be a lot of boosted pow 12s.

    Having TB as a feat would probably fall too close to H2's feat, without being as good. Not stepping on H2 or H3's toes is difficult, though.

    Nice suggestions. Keep em coming!

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormpuppy_Infantry View Post
    Personally, 'my' stance is like as you, but I do think that it is also need to consider the people that doesn't share the same feeling. Denial is more annoying than just destroys something. For example, I remember that, in Magic: the Gathering, counterspell(prevent to playing a card when a player is about to play it) cause more annoyance than let play it then destroy it immediately by a instant spell(cards that can play at any time), although both have almost the same result in the most times unless the play itself trigger an effect.

    Some denial needs to be exists, but too hard denial is not so good. We are play the game with each other, not playing solitaire.

    I like denials very much, but it is also annoying to face. I can accept to face any denials because the opponent can do as same as me to win, but not all of us are able to accept this so easy. Not all of us are feels so bad about that, but someone does.

    Well, I need to say that I have the grievance about the errata. It can't be helped that Haley1 is nerfed because it is annoying to face(even consider that she is not the top caster). But, not like this.
    Lots of good points, however, one needs variable to make a quality game. If everything amounts to another way to kill something the game becomes stale very quickly. It's not the fact that counter spell and doom blade both can remove a creature that makes their game great, it the fact that they are different ways to do the same thing which make it feel like a whole different experience. Positive and negative experiences can be very beneficial for everyone involved, if both participants are willing to absorb the knowledge and learn from the experience.
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  32. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixforger View Post
    I'm not sure how I would feel about this being implemented. A spell that gives an extra attack, or boosted damage rolls, to a unit would definitely need to be limited to once per turn. Outside of that, I don't think it would be worthwhile most of the time. A big bonus for Blitz as a feat is that Solos benefit from it, and with Cygnar's big stable of awesome solos, that's pretty great. A damage buff for a unit of troopers would be interesting, and might inspire me to take a unit of long gunners. That would be a lot of boosted pow 12s.

    Having TB as a feat would probably fall too close to H2's feat, without being as good. Not stepping on H2 or H3's toes is difficult, though.

    Nice suggestions. Keep em coming!
    There was a suggestion earlier along the same lines which suggested giving her Temporal Acceleration as the spell, which gives the additional attack and alr day is limited to being cast once per turn.

  33. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    There was a suggestion earlier along the same lines which suggested giving her Temporal Acceleration as the spell, which gives the additional attack and alr day is limited to being cast once per turn.
    So, she would have a spell similar to a Haley2 spell, and a feat similar to a Haley2 feat? I just don't dig it. Haley1 needs to be different from H2 and H3. Otherwise, there's not much point in redesigning her.

  34. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by ofthez View Post
    How about keep the 4 cost for -2def -2spd but inside a 5" template placed compleetly inside control
    I like this idea.

    Also, could TB be made into -2 Def plus a reverse hunter's mark? "Enemy models charging friendly faction models suffer -2" movement." Could be worked around with Charge extenders like boundless charge while at the same time being a good counter to it. It would do nothing against gun lines so not too powerful?

  35. #115
    Destroyer of Worlds Bloodsplatter artist's Avatar
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    Maybe make TB a spamable spell. Reduce the cost and have it drop wall templates that can't be charged through and give models behind it def boost. Just dropping walls that only protect your forces and can't be negated by Pathfinder or hunter.
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  36. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixforger View Post
    So, she would have a spell similar to a Haley2 spell, and a feat similar to a Haley2 feat? I just don't dig it. Haley1 needs to be different from H2 and H3. Otherwise, there's not much point in redesigning her.
    The feats have different effects, the only overall similar effect is that enemy models cannot begin charges inside their control range. H2's feat still allows models to run to engage, and H1's feat still allows models to move and shoot (or walk in and attack if they have enough movement). A similar argument about feats being too similar could be applied to Sloan and H1.

    As far as spell lists go H1's (projected) spell list is more buff oriented (TA, AS, Deadeye) with some minor attack spells (Arcane Bolt and Chain Lightning) as well as a debuff (Scramble).

    H2 still fits more of a control role with TK, Domination, and Time Bomb.

  37. #117
    Warrior Malloc's Avatar
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    Hmm, maybe instead of tweaking the current spell, a whole different design that follows the name of temporal barrier.

    "Any enemy model that starts outside of Haley's Control Area whose advance ends inside her control area immediately ends it's activation and are stationary for one round."

    It provides a one round hard stop on all enemy models, but doesn't impede movement. Not sure if this should be a cost 3 or cost 4 spell.

    edit: Corrected inert for stationary, got the effects reversed.
    Last edited by Malloc; 01-11-2017 at 02:06 PM.
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  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodsplatter artist View Post
    Maybe make TB a spamable spell. Reduce the cost and have it drop wall templates that can't be charged through and give models behind it def boost. Just dropping walls that only protect your forces and can't be negated by Pathfinder or hunter.
    I realy like that!!! like a 2 cost spell that gives consealment (to not be abusive)
    Playing E-Caine is like having a pair of jacks and going all in after getting 9, 10, J at the River

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malloc View Post
    Hmm, maybe instead of tweaking the current spell, a whole different design that follows the name of temporal barrier.

    "Any enemy model that starts outside of Haley's Control Area whose advance ends inside her control area immediately ends it's activation and are stationary for one round."

    It provides a one round hard stop on all enemy models, but doesn't impede movement. Not sure if this should be a cost 3 or cost 4 spell.

    edit: Corrected inert for stationary, got the effects reversed.
    This is even more broken and space AIDS than old TB. It's Haley 2 feat on a spell. "So you will be able to move within 14" of me at full speed. But you'll have to run to cover some of the ground between me and you, leaving your army open for a counterattack and even to me walking 6" backwards and recasting it, doing this again".
    Only in killbox scenarios this would be limited.
    You got the achievement for most broken rework in my experience XD.
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  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malloc View Post
    Hmm, maybe instead of tweaking the current spell, a whole different design that follows the name of temporal barrier.

    "Any enemy model that starts outside of Haley's Control Area whose advance ends inside her control area immediately ends it's activation and are stationary for one round."

    It provides a one round hard stop on all enemy models, but doesn't impede movement. Not sure if this should be a cost 3 or cost 4 spell.

    edit: Corrected inert for stationary, got the effects reversed.

    I feel this even stronger than the -2... this feels more like a feat


    on the flipside... the Wall template idea is realy cool! lets give it a range casting like 8" (to encourage taking an arcnode) and must be within the current controle area while casting it
    Playing E-Caine is like having a pair of jacks and going all in after getting 9, 10, J at the River

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