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  1. #1

    Default A Humble Gators Thoughts Post Errata and Suggestions to Future Changes

    I don't normally post a lot on the forums, but felt that I should share my thoughts and feelings post errata. To my credit I have been a die hard Minions player for 7 years. :P So I like the direction that the errata is going in and I think the game is going to get better going forward cause of it. I do think the power attack changes is heavy handed, but I can still live with it. I was not surprised about the points change honestly. All and all it was good overall.

    Now I did want to post some suggestions for future changes that I think would be balanced and add use to minions as a whole in and out of faction. Now I am not suggesting that all these changes be made, that they are just ideas.

    Casters

    Notes: Most of our casters are able to work well, but I felt that 2 stood out as having minor issues

    Jaga Jaga- She just needs to get the full advance back on her feat, really didn't understand why it was changed to 3 inches when she was not taken very often in the first place. Now this is wishful thinking, but it would be nice to see "Death Rage" get a buff to be like watcher where the "Death Rage" attack and damage roll is boosted or it is just that the attack roll is boosted. Really does not feel good when you miss your "Death Rage" attack.

    Strum and Drang- Now this guy is an interesting one, but if he were to stay as is there is a minor thing I would like to see done to his feat. It needs to prevent empower and any form of a jack gaining focus except from power up. This would make him feel more balanced into Warmachine and Hordes rather than just Hordes. For a more extreme change, I could see him getting a new feat if we want to go that extreme.

    Warbeasts

    Notes: A lot of our beasts are fantastic now, but there are a few that I think we can agree may need a change in what the do and not in points

    Swamp Horror- I would just like to see a change in his armor by 1 point up or even 2, but 2 may be pushing it for him.

    Blind Walker- Would love to have the arc node animus it has as just a rule for the fig, and for him to gain something else as an animus in return. I always liked the idea of a "Death Field" animus (Note this was a mark 2 thought before we got rage in mark 3.), though that may increase his points cost. The "Repulsion" animus would also be a good one.

    Bone Swarm- I have always liked this guy but he doesn't see table time, cause his animus is costly and he doesn't really seem to do much for us. I highly doubt any form of points change would make us take him in our lists. One change that came to mind is either he starts the game with some bone tokens on him and "Swarm" gets reduced to fury cost 1. One other change is that he gets a full rework and giving him a spray 8 gun and a few other rules. (I have no idea on what the other rules might be.)

    Bullsnapper- I love this guy but we are not seeing him much these days, mostly do to "Spiny Growth" being made range self. Would love to see the cost on the animus going down, but it may break the bank in other factions if it did. What really needs to go away is "Torpid" yes it is fluffy but dear god do we hate the fact that during its activation it only gets to kill a single fig. Now if it were to keep "Torpid" I suggest changing its animus to "Still as Death". The reason I suggest it is that you can spend the Fury cos one for the ability charge and go "Torpid", but now whereas before it poses a question do you want to deal with pow 12 counter charge fig. It also gives some furry management to the beast, cause it "Torpids" after the counter charge, and it is also a very fluffy change as well.

    Razor Boar- honestly reduce their cost and make them single purchase once more, many times I will take a battle boar over Razor Boars.

    Battle Engines

    Notes: There is just one battle engine that I think we can all agree needs a change.

    Meat Thresher: I only have a few suggestions for this bad boy. First is simply a points reduction. As we saw in the errata a lot of BEs got a reduction in point I think the thresher meets such a needed change. A lot of us have a hard time justifying 19 points for the bad boy. Now my other thought is that I would love to see either a speed increase on it or that it gains reposition 3", or both :P. The speed increase and/or reposition would let it harass a lot more.

    Solos

    Mist Speaker- He needs to either go down in points from 4 to 3 or that he stays at 4 and picks up a more offensive spell other than "Influence". I really like the Idea of him getting "Venom".

    Croak Hunter- Would love to see him go down to 3 cost, but that may be a bit much and he would fight the trawler for the 3 cost position.

    Efaarit Scouts- Would like to see them go down to 5 points, but that may be extreme.

    Gatorman Witch Doctor- Oh boy this guy, honestly he needs a full rework cause I don't think many of us are making use of him, because of how tough was changed.

    Gudrun the Wanderer- Would like to see him get "Rise" but meh :P

    Thrullg- Honestly I would take him if he had stealth, since he doesn't 6 points is a bit much. I would see us considering putting him on the table if he was 4 to 5 points as is, but right now he doesn't fit the niche we want to use him for.

    Units

    Bog Trog Ambushers- They kinda scream out to get "Powerful Charge" back and a change in cost by a few points, never understood why "Powerful Charge" was swapped for "Pull". If they did stay as they are they really should be our cheap gum up unit 16 points is a lot for what they do I can see it coming down to 14 for a max unit. Another option is they are able to pull things larger than them buy doing CMA. An example of this would be that 2 man CMA for Medium base and 3 man CMA for large base.

    Croak Raiders- The change in pow on the flame dart feels ok, but the loss in armor really felt like a bit much. If they stayed the way they are now I would like to see them go down 1 point. However if they are to stay 17 points for a max unit I'd like to see them get ps 11 on the dart and 14 arm. Though some may say that is a tad extreme.

    Farrow Commandos - Simply put I would like to see a small points reduction to 14 for a max unit.

    Farrow Razorback Crew- Would be nice to see this go to 4 points.

    Farrow Slaughterhousers- I would like to see these guys go down at least 1 to 2 points. 2 points may be a stretch, but I can dream.

    Gatorman Posse- Oh how have the mighty have fallen. The only thing I can see making posse even considered in their current state is another cost reduction of 1 point. 16 points for this unit as is, is a perfect spot for them. Many may disagree with that statement though. At 17 points the buff that might make them see table is just bring them to mat 7 again, if they are not meant to be tanky then make them full on agro.

    Lynus and Edrea- This unit always felt it needed a full blown rework, cause they don’t even know what they want to do. I would even consider reworking them as a unit but as a caster attachment, They seem like they would be perfect for this role.

    Blythe and Bull- Just needs a point reduction from 6 to 5.


    Hope you guys enjoy the write up, pardon any of grammatical mistakes.

    Rex,
    Last edited by rexxigar; 01-01-2017 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Additions

  2. #2

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    Still really new to the game so don't have ton of insight on any of this

    Jaga Jaga-I really love this model, but she just doesn't feel like she has a plan for how to win the game. I know what I want to be doing with the other gator warlocks, but with Jaga Jaga I see lots of things I can counter but nothing to really take advantage of.

    Witch doctor-In faction I don't think the changes to tough is the biggest issue, more that only three units don't have tough by default. Outside of making Shamblers more annoying I don't see why to take him.

  3. #3
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    I would like to chime in by saying that I really appreciate the direction PP is going with the new errata and Insider. I think the move towards digital rules fixes, more transparency and exposition about changes, and an understanding that tweaks will be necessary are all incredibly positive changes. I like that rexxigar has made a thread with suggestions that is positive and appreciative; thanks, rex! Here's my two cents to add:

    Power Attacks:

    Power attacks had to be changed. I think the game is better after the errata than before it. However, I am concerned that the game will move towards being unable to target friendly models with any attacks. This was the change to charging, to prevent Feats getting a +3" range, and now a change to power attacks to prevent getting abusively long threat ranges and auto-knockdowns. I am worried that this will carry us, bit by bit towards a game where you can't target or attack friendly models. One of the things I really like about WM/H is the tactical flexibility, complexity, and freedom that comes from being able to target friendlies. I'm sure many different fixes were tested by PP, but my preferred change would have been that a model cannot activate latter on in a turn in which it was thrown/slammed, in addition to the reintroduction of scattering on missed for throws.

    Jaga-Jaga:

    I like Jaga, but I don't see that she needed her Feat nerfed. I'm with rexxigar in that I would like to see her get her Mk II feat back. I don't think it was over-tuned or abusive in it's old incarnation, and I think that the meta changes in The New Edition make her Feat less powerful, not more.

    Posse:

    Losing three wounds cost Posse their niche on the battlefield. At five wounds they are nearly as vulnerable to POW 12 charges as regular single wound infantry. They are also very vulnerable to high value shooting, and not at all immune from low POW shooting. This makes them ideal targets for every kind of attack, without being such a threat themselves to justify shielding them as they move their way up the field. Posse aren't strictly terrible, but they almost can't be played without some kind of survivability buff, and even then they are overshadowed by most other choices. You could keep dropping them in points until they become good, but I think it will be hard to find a sweet-spot for them without some rules tweaks.

    I will restate that I am grateful at the level of communication coming out of PP regarding the new errata and direction. I am very happy with the game, and hopeful that new releases and tweaks will keep me coming back for more.

  4. #4

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    I think Jaga-Jaga is just waiting for Colossals to come back into style, or infantry to come back into style, for her to be good. Once either or both of those things are in meta, she'll be perfectly fine and usable.

    Deadweight is really unpleasant for Colossals, and her feat locks down infantry super hard.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by rexxigar View Post
    Strum and Drang-For a more extreme change, I could see him getting a new feat if we want to go that extreme.
    I find it bewildering his feat isn't called "Perfect clarity" and just combines them for a turn, seems like the logical design for them from the get go. Might not be that great in the context of their overall rules at this point though.

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeff View Post
    I think Jaga-Jaga is just waiting for Colossals to come back into style, or infantry to come back into style, for her to be good. Once either or both of those things are in meta, she'll be perfectly fine and usable.

    Deadweight is really unpleasant for Colossals, and her feat locks down infantry super hard.
    Can't agree. Deadweight is easily played around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rexxigar View Post
    Strum and Drang- Now this guy is an interesting one, but if he were to stay as is there is a minor thing I would like to see done to his feat. It needs to prevent empower and any form of a jack gaining focus except from power up. This would make him feel more balanced into Warmachine and Hordes rather than just Hordes. For a more extreme change, I could see him getting a new feat if we want to go that extreme.
    That wouldn't really change the discrepancy in their Feat. Beyond Warmachine just getting a whole lot of ways to work around it, it also doesn't actually limit the resources of a Warmachine list in any way. It just limits where they can use those resources. Against Hordes it materially impacts the amount of Fury that can actually go on the board (and also just coincidentally makes for a way to shut down transfers and probably ensures your opponent will be cutting for Fury next turn). Against Warmachine their Warcaster can still spend their Focus, so it just causes a reallocation of resources.

    From a top down perspective it may look like the two sides of the system are impacted equivalently (you get one "point" on each Warbeast/Warjack and your Warlock/Warcaster gets to spend their full stack), but that ignores the fact that the two systems are balanced differently. Since it doesn't prevent Power Up, a Warmachine faction just gets the exact same turn they would have had if they'd chosen not to allocate. There are lists out there designed around the idea of never allocating Focus. For example, this does absolutely nothing to a standard Ossrum list.

    I don't know what the change would be. I kind of feel like it should combine with Mohsar's Feat a little and also prevent Power Up. Alternatively it could prevent Focus replenishment instead and do nothing to Warjacks at all. The point is, the Feat is very strong against Hordes and very weak into Warmachine despite looking like each side gets the same resources because it's a material reduction in the resources available for Hordes, with nowhere near that impact into Warmachine.

  7. #7
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    A bit similar to Venethrax's feat. Feat that does not stop power up does significantly less work against warmachine these days.

    Angry Norway, combined minds for a round and gain 7 fury (exceeding FURY) would be a pretty cool feat.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Malkav13's Avatar
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    JagaJaga is one of my favorite casters. Even with her Feat taking a hit, she is still pretty solid (although I would be ecstatic if her Feat changed back). She can use both the Bone Swarm and the Snapper to get some really quite impressive defensive stats going.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Mar 27 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    So please, think of the goats. Don't demand official answers.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Apr 16 2009, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    "fruitbatbananacoated"

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by whats82 View Post
    Angry Norway, combined minds for a round and gain 7 fury (exceeding FURY) would be a pretty cool feat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkav13 View Post
    JagaJaga is one of my favorite casters. Even with her Feat taking a hit, she is still pretty solid (although I would be ecstatic if her Feat changed back). She can use both the Bone Swarm and the Snapper to get some really quite impressive defensive stats going.
    I've chosen Jaga as my next Gator caster to work with. What do you like with her? Would you mind sharing your currently list? Any fun tips or general strategies or favorite tricks you'd be willing to share?

  11. #11
    Destroyer of Worlds Malkav13's Avatar
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    JagaJaga really likes being able to get the alpha (but who doesn't, right?) Her Feat allows her to jam extremely well against infantry, especially if you are able to get it at range. So, along that theme, this is my current build with JagaJaga.

    JagaJaga
    Wrastler
    Swamp Horror
    Boneswarm
    Bull Snapper

    Brigands + UA (Full)
    Croak Raiders (Full)
    Bog Trogs (min)
    Bone Grinders (min)

    Lanyssa
    Totem Hunter

    I'm able to send up ranged infantry in 2 waves in order to help get the most of my Feat.
    The Bog Trogs are there because I love that unit, and it helps to prevent being flanked. Plus, they are a great scenario piece, able to come in where and when needed.
    The Totem Hunter with Grave Wind becomes 16/17, with Stealth. Great for holding an objective, or taking out a key support piece.
    With Lanyssa and Battle Host the Wraster threats 13" (5 spd+3 charge+2 Lanyssa+2 Battle Host+1 Reach). If needed, the Swamp Horror can give 1" more as well.
    The Bone Swarm and Snapper are there for assassination protection, particularly as the game progresses.
    With Swarm and Grave Wind JagaJaga is at 18 Defense (against living and ranged). With Battle Host and Spiny Growth she is at 20 armor. I can also mix and match for 16/18, which isn't too bad at all.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Mar 27 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    So please, think of the goats. Don't demand official answers.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Apr 16 2009, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    "fruitbatbananacoated"

  12. #12
    Destroyer of Worlds Malkav13's Avatar
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    I almost forgot. For the ADR, I have:

    A Wrastler: When a nother beater is needed.
    Dhalia and Skarath: For a High Def model that can help hold a zone and clear out infantry with sprays.
    Something else for 6 pts? Targ? An Effaarit Scout? Something else?

    I can swap out the Croak Raiders for either option, or the Ambushers and either the Boneswarm or Snapper as the main list is 1 point down. It feels like it adds some nicI almost forgot. For the ADR, I have:

    A Wrastler: When a nother beater is needed.
    Dhalia and Skarath: For a High Def model that can help hold a zone and clear out infantry with sprays.
    Something else for 6 pts? Targ? An Effaarit Scout? Something else?

    I can swap out the Croak Raiders for either option, or the Ambushers and either the Boneswarm or Snapper as the main list is 1 point down. It feels like it adds some nice flexibility.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Mar 27 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    So please, think of the goats. Don't demand official answers.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Apr 16 2009, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    "fruitbatbananacoated"

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    Thanks for your thoughts, Malkav1! Due to what I own I'm going to try her with more beasts and kind of an eclectic set of models. I think I'm going to try:

    Jaga + 29
    16 - wrastler
    15 - spitter
    14 - Horror
    12 - Blindwalker
    7 - Boneswarm
    4 - Targ

    17 - Croakraiders (Max)

    15 - R&B
    4 - Lanyssa

    As I said, this list is somewhat limited to the models I own. I'm going to try and upgrade R&B to D&S, and some other tweaks. I'll report back after I try it.

  14. #14
    Destroyer of Worlds Malkav13's Avatar
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    I look forward to it. In MKII I ran JagaJaga with Spitters, but decided to try something a little different this go around.
    I was able to play JagaJaga into Ret yesterday and surprised my opponent with my lists ability to jam and with the threat ranges of my beasts.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Mar 27 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    So please, think of the goats. Don't demand official answers.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Apr 16 2009, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    "fruitbatbananacoated"

  15. #15
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    I got a chance to try out Jaga this week. I played:

    Jaga + 29
    16 - wrastler
    15 - spitter
    14 - Horror
    12 - Blindwalker
    7 - Boneswarm
    4 - Targ

    17 - Croakraiders (Max)

    15 - R&B
    4 - Lanyssa

    My opponent had:

    Hexy 2 +27
    38 - Mammoth
    17 - Cannoeer
    7 - Krea
    7 - Agonizer

    17 - Arcuarii (max)
    6 - TyCom
    5 - Beast Handlers (min)
    2 - Swamp Gobbers

    3 - Extoller Soulward

    The highlights of the game are as follows:

    Turn 1: I went first, deployed centrally on the South side of the table, with R&B on my West flank. My opponent put Hexy in the middle, with the Mammoth on the West and the Arcarii and Krea together on the East flank. I set up the Croak Raiders opposite the Arcuraii.

    Turn 2: I threw R&B against the Mammoth on top of 2, but due to the Agonizer and a strong Counter Blast roll knocking out what was left of Brine's Spirit he failed to do much damage. However, my bigger mistake was not getting my other beasts into range to follow-up on the Mammoth next turn.

    My opponent Feated on the bottom of 2 and shot/spelled the Blindwalker off the table. The Mammoth narrowly killed Brine after some abysmal to-hit rolls. The Croak Raiders would have had a good matchup against the Arcuarii, except that 4 of them died to an arced Ashes to Ashes, and those that remained still needed 7's to hit the Cataphracts.

    Turn 3: With R&B and the Blindwalker gone and my opponent still having a nearly full health Mammoth I did what I could to get the Horror onto Hexy. Def 15 and 1 transfer meant that Hexy was ore or less unscathed. The following turn I got the Wrastler up to Hexy, but I had to Trample to get there. I forced Hexy to use his two transfers, but he survived easily. My opponent then ran out of time on his Death Clock, but he had the game in hand and could have just done fewer things to save time.

    Afterthoughts:

    So, we both had sorta weird lists. Mostly, the game taught me a bunch of things I need to look out for next game. Rorsh & Brine are always good models, but they felt a little out of place in this list because Escort kinda steps on their toes (their schtick being to threat far).

    The Croak Raiders were mostly a speed-bump and skirmishers, and I think they did fine in that roll. I wonder if it would be stronger if I could avoid offering something up to just be killed. I've gotten good work out of the Croaks in games where they held back, but I have trouble determining what is going to be the front line in this list.

    Speaking of my front line: I kept Poltergeist on the Bone Swarm and it proved difficult to remove, but not all that effectual. I think I'll try and keep it in the list and see if I can try and set the line of engagement with a high Def light.

    I learned that I should keep Targ near enough to the Blindwalker to heal it if needed. The Blindwalker had its Spirit knocked out on the bottom of 1 and without Targ being in range to Heal the was no way to restore its channelling abilities. I was never able cast Deadweight, but the spell seems really important to her kit. Forcing the Mammoth to sacrifice Movement/Action would have been great, but even preventing the Cannoneer from charging on a key turn seems crucial to winning the piece trade.

    The other important piece I missed this game was her Feat. I should have recognized that the best use for the Feat this game was just Death Shroud. Getting extra damage on the Mammoth or Cannoneer would have been the correct choice. Instead, I popped it to try and get a bit of jam with the Arcuarii and ended up only killing one. Do you folks have any trouble getting enemy models into range of the Feat? Jaga's 14" control is pretty decent, but I think I'll need to play Jaga a bit further forward next time to try and get the enemy into her control range.

    For next time I'm going to swap Dahlia & Skarath in for R&B. In order to find the 2 points I'm either going to swap the Croak Raiders for Commandos, or drop Lanyssa. I think Lanyssa may be important in certain match-ups, and she just didn't feel very important because I was facing off against a slow army. On the other hand, even at Magic Ability [7] Hunter's Mark isn't exactly reliable. I'm a little torn. With the remaining two points I'd probably upgrade the Horror to a second Wrastler. I dunno, any thoughts or advice? Whadduyall think?
    Last edited by Vomath; 01-14-2017 at 02:13 PM.

  16. #16
    Destroyer of Worlds Malkav13's Avatar
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    I just got done playing her today at a Tournament. My list was

    JagaJaga
    Wrastler
    Spitter
    Swamp Horror
    Full Brigands + UA
    Full Croaks
    Min Ambushers
    Lanyssa
    Totem Hunter
    Feralgeist

    With ADR I have Dhalia and Skarrath to swap in.

    I am really liking this list. In both games that I used it I was able to get some really amazing jamming done. The opponents had to spend a lot of time and resources trying to dig themselves out of their own units.
    I'm finding that I rarely use it for the Dark Shroud as almost all of my killing on Feat turn is done by ranged attacks.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Mar 27 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    So please, think of the goats. Don't demand official answers.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Apr 16 2009, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    "fruitbatbananacoated"

  17. #17
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    Nice! Who did you drop her into? Do you remember what your opponent's other list was? Was your other list Rask? Do you have any trouble getting the enemy models in Jaga's control range for the Feat?

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