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  1. #1
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Default why are Tactical Arcanist Corp still single wound?

    Pretty much the title, they had a nice niche in Mk 2, an interesting mix of offensive and defensive outputs, and reasonably sturdy to blast damage and small arms fire. Now they are just an utter liability, a pow 10 will kill them on a 7! they are meant to be sturdy dwarfs, why do they now die to a stiff breeze?
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  2. #2
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    Have you tried them at all? They are one of; if not the hardest hitting small base mercenary models in the game outside of solo(s), or Warcasters.

    With the cloud (some models can ignore) they are defense13 arm 16. (thats at a high boarder zone of hard to hit averaging a 6 on a Rat 7 model/unit)

    They have a powerful p+s 13 melee (more than most models) and battle wizard.

    Arm 16 seems bad if you disregard anuy ability to help them out. Exp: Damiano, Ossrum, Magnus (one of them), there are more but i lack time.

    Truth is with models on paper its more the total parts vs a dingle model. The core was broken at 5 wounds and believe it or not statistically they are better than most models of the same base size point for point. They even make skirmishes look less than favorable vs hard armor infantry, medium base units, or light warjacks (melee only).

    Only thing harming them is "Popular Oppinion" and a Heavy Battlegroup Meta.

  3. #3

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    I think what holds them back is point cost. They may hit hard, and have cool abilities but its a lot of points for 3 single wound models that are speed 4. Its the same reason Greylord Ternion are not seeing much play right now, they are too expensive for what they do.

  4. #4
    Destroyer of Worlds Grey Templar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenzilla View Post
    I think what holds them back is point cost. They may hit hard, and have cool abilities but its a lot of points for 3 single wound models that are speed 4. Its the same reason Greylord Ternion are not seeing much play right now, they are too expensive for what they do.
    This is a problem pretty much all infantry have.

    Infantry are hellishly overcosted relative to jacks and need point costs to get slashed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenzilla View Post
    I think what holds them back is point cost. They may hit hard, and have cool abilities but its a lot of points for 3 single wound models that are speed 4. Its the same reason Greylord Ternion are not seeing much play right now, they are too expensive for what they do.
    I agree 100%. I still run large infantry armies but its alot less models if the infantry cost was slightly less (1 pt. Across every unit) i feel it would bring greater balance

  6. #6
    Destroyer of Worlds RandomThoughts's Avatar
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    Multi-wound spellcaster units is the bane of spells like psychic vampire, that are already niche and get completely negated when every model with a spellcasting ability has 5 or more boxes.

    I don't think the TAC needs it either, they are a toolbox that provides both clouds and AOE damage. Price might be an issue, though.

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  7. #7

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    If they were a bit faster I'd be happier with them.
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  8. #8
    Destroyer of Worlds RandomThoughts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick the Boo View Post
    If they were a bit faster I'd be happier with them.
    That's a common issue, not just with the TAC, but with most slow models. I think PP underestimates the importance of speed, and that results in slow models being overcosted for what they do otherwise.

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  9. #9
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    Greylord Ternion and Clockwork Angels are both also single wound, doesn't seem that problematic.
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  10. #10
    Destroyer of Worlds Azuresun's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=onijet01;3775118]Have you tried them at all? They are one of; if not the hardest hitting small base mercenary models in the game outside of solo(s), or Warcasters.

    With the cloud (some models can ignore) they are defense13 arm 16. (thats at a high boarder zone of hard to hit averaging a 6 on a Rat 7 model/unit)

    A RAT 6, POW 10 attack still kills them on average when clouded--and because of the changes to clouds, they can't hand out concealment to others. And if they're using the cloud, they're not attacking or running--and with SPD 4, they need to be running more often than other cloud-making units if they want to do anything other than be slightly harder to kill.


    Quote Originally Posted by onijet01 View Post
    They have a powerful p+s 13 melee (more than most models) and battle wizard.
    Which matters if you make it into melee and don't get shot down or charged from outside your threat by pretty much anything with a weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by onijet01 View Post
    Arm 16 seems bad if you disregard anuy ability to help them out. Exp: Damiano, Ossrum, Magnus (one of them), there are more but i lack time.
    Certainly, but most of those abilities have an opportunity cost. Even the +3 ARM feats or Macbain will give the TAC maybe one turn of safety to fire off one spell before they die the next turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by onijet01 View Post
    Truth is with models on paper its more the total parts vs a dingle model. The core was broken at 5 wounds and believe it or not statistically they are better than most models of the same base size point for point. They even make skirmishes look less than favorable vs hard armor infantry, medium base units, or light warjacks (melee only).

    Only thing harming them is "Popular Oppinion" and a Heavy Battlegroup Meta.
    Nah, five boxes was balanced just fine in Mk2--they weren't dominating matchups, but they had a niche and seldom felt like wasted points. Their resilience was a trade-off for their slow speed making them hard to apply before they got attacked. Now they combine their old problems getting into a relevant position with dying much more easily to any POW 10+ attack in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomThoughts View Post
    Multi-wound spellcaster units is the bane of spells like psychic vampire, that are already niche and get completely negated when every model with a spellcasting ability has 5 or more boxes.
    Kayazy Eliminators say hi. Out of the lightly armoured, acrobatic stealth assassins and the dwarves in heavy environmental armour, which would you logically expect to have five boxes?
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    Pretty much the title, they had a nice niche in Mk 2, an interesting mix of offensive and defensive outputs, and reasonably sturdy to blast damage and small arms fire. Now they are just an utter liability, a pow 10 will kill them on a 7! they are meant to be sturdy dwarfs, why do they now die to a stiff breeze?
    I would tend to think the same. They definitely need more damage boxes. I am often playing against Khador (especially Behemoth) and legion of Everblight (Ravagores). And the revamp on jack/beast AoE from 3" to 4" kinda makes it difficult for any of these model/units. I don't even dare playing a jack marshal anymore. What's the point with AoE 4 and arcing fire. They die so fast.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azuresun View Post
    Kayazy Eliminators say hi. Out of the lightly armoured, acrobatic stealth assassins and the dwarves in heavy environmental armour, which would you logically expect to have five boxes?
    Eliminators die to most blast damage even with boxes....I play them in over 60% of my lists, and I can count on one hand the times they were hit and survived.....its exactly 2 times. snake eyes for damage and a below average roll on blast damage. Other than that, if they are hit they die.

  13. #13
    Destroyer of Worlds Azuresun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenzilla View Post
    Eliminators die to most blast damage even with boxes....I play them in over 60% of my lists, and I can count on one hand the times they were hit and survived.....its exactly 2 times. snake eyes for damage and a below average roll on blast damage. Other than that, if they are hit they die.
    Which makes the question of why they have boxes and the TAC doesn't a little more mystifying.
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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomThoughts View Post
    Multi-wound spellcaster units is the bane of spells like psychic vampire, that are already niche and get completely negated when every model with a spellcasting ability has 5 or more boxes.
    The issue is psychic vampire, not five-boxed-3-wizards-units.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheddercaveman View Post
    Greylord Ternion and Clockwork Angels are both also single wound, doesn't seem that problematic.
    Clockwork Angels really aren't comparable to the TAC.

  16. #16
    Destroyer of Worlds Doktor Grym's Avatar
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    I'd rather they had Alchemical Mask as an ability than be multi-wounded. Having additional elemental immunities would be welcome as an alternative to being multi-wounded models too.

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  17. #17
    Destroyer of Worlds Azuresun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheddercaveman View Post
    Greylord Ternion and Clockwork Angels are both also single wound, doesn't seem that problematic.
    The difference being that the Ternion can be a safe distance back and still contribute (put clouds on something that then moves forward), and that both of those units have decent SPD and DEF to keep them from dying casually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor Grym View Post
    I'd rather they had Alchemical Mask as an ability than be multi-wounded. Having additional elemental immunities would be welcome as an alternative to being multi-wounded models too.

    KSW
    The core problem with the unit is that if they get his by even low-POW attacks, they die, and given how slow and low-DEF they are, they're very easy to hit. They need an ability to tank at least weak attacks.
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