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  1. #1

    Default Can someone tell me why the indictor is being used in so many lists

    It may be that I'm missing something but through personal opinion and play testing at 15 points I think this Jack is unplayable. it brings no shield guard and doesn't have reach, its sacred ward is almost always irrelevant because of the choir and consecration has never done anything 5 inches is either enough for a beast to walk out and walk back in or just be targeted from outside the bubble but when I look at least people are bringing them and I can't see why when a templar seem straight up better.

    Sorry for the small rant I just really don't understand.

  2. #2
    Conqueror Curry91's Avatar
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    I am not sure on it myself yet but from what i hear having a spell immune jack into casters like Hayely2 makes a big difference also means the choir can pump up damage instead of playing it safe. I can see it being great if your opponent is relying on debuffs to crack arm.

  3. #3

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    If that is the case it seems like it is a very meta dependant Jack then my meta for armour cracking is to buff strength of the attacker and not that many debuffs flying around which may also show the lack of success I've had with it.

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    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesyr123 View Post
    If that is the case it seems like it is a very meta dependant Jack then my meta for armour cracking is to buff strength of the attacker and not that many debuffs flying around which may also show the lack of success I've had with it.
    It is. It's basically sideboard tech for particular matchups - it's really good against Haley2, for example, where it can be immune both to guns and spells while ignoring the Arcane Shield on her Stormwall. Wurmwood also tends to dislike high-ARM models he can't debuff, and it's obviously kind of a big middle finger to Butcher3 who can't ever use Impending Doom to extend his threat against a pair of Indictors or Flashing Blade against them. If somebody like Durst ever shows up on ADR and you want him in your pairing then Indictors might be interesting Specialist picks.

    I've also seen Severius2 lists that run three Templars, and hard-swapping them out for Indictors might actually be an option as it brings your battlegroup MAT across the board up by one and lets you run Passage while simultaneously being spell-immune. It's not like Sev tends to want for shield guards in his list anyway given how much he likes both Rhoven and Blessing.
    Last edited by BarskeMannen; 01-05-2017 at 02:21 AM.
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    Although I hated it when the rules came out for it, it was over costed and compared unfavorably to a templar.
    What changed my mind were a series of things
    First, Durst; this thing is great with Durst. Durst is one of my main casters this edition.
    Second, MKIII changes; it has a 1" reach which is huge increase over 1/2"
    Third, Chassis upgrade; another change from MKII to MKIII is the fact that this guy (and the Guardian) went to MAT 7 when we lost +2 to hit from the choir.
    Fourth, animi are spells now; that means that the Indictors 'no spells' aura affects far more models.
    Fifth, plastic; They're made from HIPS and not that awful PVC used for our other 'jacks. I hate working with PVC.

    While I'm not convinced to the point where I want to spam six of them in one list, I am considering actually picking up one or two rather than proxying them for Durst.
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  6. #6

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    In so many list ? I don't know where do you see that.

    I don't like this jack, personnally. He has spd4" and 1" melee which is the same as the Crusader who hit harder for 5pts less.

    BUT


    you have to consider that the meta shift a bit recently due to some nerf and some list like Baldur2 / guargants are coming back. Without Grievous wound on them, it's impossible with the old list to handle it. Before the release of Eye of Truth (which we don't know exactly the cost and the capabailities), the Blessed + Magic Weapon and the ARm 21 is a fantastic addition to Amon list.
    I personnally play two Indictors now for my Amon list. It's playable because of Mobility. He hits as hard as a Templar, resist like a templar + No Magic. The 5" bubble is not always relevant but can screw the plan of Horde player if he wants to pop his animus (Doomy3 for free for example).
    Blessed deal with Arcane Shield, Force Evolution and Root of Earth for example.
    Two indictors kills a Giant monkey easily with Synergie.

  7. #7
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmarpouet View Post
    I don't like this jack, personnally. He has spd4" and 1" melee which is the same as the Crusader who hit harder for 5pts less.
    Raw power isn't everything.
    Those five points get you +1 MAT, +2ARM (to the front) and a plethora of special rules, including blessed (as you point out) and blessed is great for dealing with an arcane shielded centurian which is becoming so common in my meta at present.
    The Indictor will never make every list for me, but his utility is such that I now at least consider him. I just need to buy the model, something that I swore that I'd never do back in MKII because it really was that useless.
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  8. #8

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    Honestly I've been playing durst since his release in mk2 and this edition lights seem a lot better the heavies with him having Def 15 arm 20 has been a lot more useful then Def 12 arm 23 heavies on feat turn

  9. #9

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    I just need to buy the model, something that I swore that I'd never do back in MKII because it really was that useless.
    Me too and I have to guys ready for paiting ^^.


    But I don't see the Indictor in another list than Amon. His threat is too ridiculous to be consider. I prefer play a crusader if I don't know what to do with my warjacks points...

  10. #10
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesyr123 View Post
    Honestly I've been playing durst since his release in mk2 and this edition lights seem a lot better the heavies with him having Def 15 arm 20 has been a lot more useful then Def 12 arm 23 heavies on feat turn
    I prefer a nice, tanky heavy with a shield, but then, I come across Siege a great deal and I need something to survive that feat turn and ARM 18 (after halving and then adding the bonuses) heavies can.
    Durst with a Templar, Indictor and Avatar seems to upset Siege players a great deal.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spideredd View Post
    I prefer a nice, tanky heavy with a shield, but then, I come across Siege a great deal and I need something to survive that feat turn and ARM 18 (after halving and then adding the bonuses) heavies can.
    Durst with a Templar, Indictor and Avatar seems to upset Siege players a great deal.
    I would have thought Hymn of Passage would already give them enough of a frowny face not to drop Siege into Protectorate.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarskeMannen View Post
    I would have thought Hymn of Passage would already give them enough of a frowny face not to drop Siege into Protectorate.
    I tend to under-use passage because of how prevalent magic weapon providers were in MKII, I'm finding that to be a hard mindset to shake.
    To be honest, Siege hasn't been as much of a problem for me in this edition as he was in the last one. Especially now that Aiyana & Holt aren't in every single list and explosivo is an upkeep spell.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spideredd View Post
    I tend to under-use passage because of how prevalent magic weapon providers were in MKII, I'm finding that to be a hard mindset to shake.
    To be honest, Siege hasn't been as much of a problem for me in this edition as he was in the last one. Especially now that Aiyana & Holt aren't in every single list and explosivo is an upkeep spell.
    That's fair. Honestly I've barely seen him played - having to choose between Reinholdt and the Squire and the considerably smaller presence of multi-wound infantry (see; basically none) in the meta was enough to put him on the endangered species list.
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    It may be that I'm missing something but through personal opinion and play testing at 15 points I think this Jack is unplayable
    its not so bad its unplayable. but its fairly overcosted at 15.

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    I personally find the Indictor great. Passage is awesome when you also have ARM 21, as usually magical weapons are weaker than normal. Blessed is always nice, P+S 19 is more than tons of heavies can dream of, Sacred Ward makes casters who rely on spells cry and the bubble, as niche as it is, when I remember my opponent he can't pull my caster with his Elven battlemages because to get in range to do so because they would enter the 5" bubble is so fun. Or that his caster with Flashing Blade cannot mulch the TFG preventing the alpha on my jacks for the aforementioned reason.
    All in all I like the Indictor as second wave hitter that also provides some situational denial (Blessed and Bubble), sports some damn high ARM and has a great MAT score.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesyr123 View Post
    It may be that I'm missing something but through personal opinion and play testing at 15 points I think this Jack is unplayable. it brings no shield guard and doesn't have reach, its sacred ward is almost always irrelevant because of the choir and consecration has never done anything 5 inches is either enough for a beast to walk out and walk back in or just be targeted from outside the bubble but when I look at least people are bringing them and I can't see why when a templar seem straight up better.

    Sorry for the small rant I just really don't understand.
    Its because its "New and Shiny". And some people really will not accept something is bad till they've put it on the table. But most do not need table time to know its not worth its points.
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  17. #17
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Templar View Post
    Its because its "New and Shiny".
    I think that may play a part in it.
    And some people really will not accept something is bad till they've put it on the table.
    I do think like that, but then again, I also won't accept something as good until I've put it on the table.
    (Except for Deliverers, those things are never going to be good.)
    But most do not need table time to know its not worth its points.
    This seems to be either short-sighted or arrogant. How have you analysed it? Have you at least tried to proxy it?
    I'm not questioning your selection process, but I would like to see something to back statement that up.

    I know that I made a judgement about in MKII and I will stand by that judgement. It wasn't worth it then, but it could be now, in the right lists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Templar View Post
    Its because its "New and Shiny". And some people really will not accept something is bad till they've put it on the table. But most do not need table time to know its not worth its points.
    Less arrogant, please, and more constructive. Can't blame someone for being willing to touch with their hand if something is good or not, can you? Nor can you blame someone for fielding an army that pleases their eyes.
    I, for example, gave my own table experiences and opinions on why I think the Indictor is cute, and looking cool is not the reason I field it.
    Last edited by EchoDelta; 01-05-2017 at 09:25 AM.
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    no rush. im sure one day well all agree its bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblighter View Post
    no rush. im sure one day well all agree its bad.
    Or maybe not.
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    It's pretty glorious to put down a list on the table that is immune to magic and immune to non-magical shooting (Reznik2 denial is fun). It can leave some opponents unable to do anything until the armies crash into one another.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Grey Templar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spideredd View Post
    I know that I made a judgement about in MKII and I will stand by that judgement. It wasn't worth it then, but it could be now, in the right lists.
    Of course I have proxied it. To death. It was an awful jack in mk2, and its still awful in mk3.

    Quote Originally Posted by EchoDelta View Post
    Less arrogant, please, and more constructive. Can't blame someone for being willing to touch with their hand if something is good or not, can you? Nor can you blame someone for fielding an army that pleases their eyes.
    I, for example, gave my own table experiences and opinions on why I think the Indictor is cute, and looking cool is not the reason I field it.
    There was nothing "arrogant" in my post. It was constructive, he asked a question and I answered it.

    At most, as you say, its cute. Deliverers are also cute. Cute and horribly awful, something that just for being included in your army you have made it worse(via opportunity cost).
    Last edited by Grey Templar; 01-05-2017 at 01:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Templar View Post
    Of course I have proxied it. To death. It was an awful jack in mk2, and its still awful in mk3.



    There was nothing "arrogant" in my post. It was constructive, he asked a question and I answered it.

    At most, as you say, its cute. Deliverers are also cute. Cute and horribly awful, something that just for being included in your army you have made it worse(via opportunity cost).
    "Most do not need yadda yadda" sounded arrogant, and I'm not the only one who noticed it. At least acknowledge it.
    Besides I didn't mean "cute" in a dismissive manner like you do. Anyway...

    @Jonesyr123 do you have any link, image or whatnot where you read that the Indictor is being played so muh please? I am genuinely interested to know more about it.
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  24. #24

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    I don't have any solid links for you just on various forums and Internet lists it's just been appearing more and more frequently, which just made me ask the question on what people actually thought of it. None of these at all imply that it is being used at a competitve level either.

  25. #25

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    Its a brand new toy for us to play with and fits the current meta pretty ok_ish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesyr123 View Post
    5 inches is either enough for a beast to walk out and walk back in
    That, at least, shouldn't work. They get to use their animus either before or after moving, but not during.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintersbastard View Post
    That, at least, shouldn't work. They get to use their animus either before or after moving, but not during.
    True, but 5" is still too small to really effect a beast. If the animus is self, the beast is usually better off anyway just buying attacks on the likely already hurt Indictor.

    If its not self, 5" is too small to keep something outside the bubble from applying the animus anyway. Buff animi are rarely put on the beast with its own fury. You use your warlock or another beast to buff it so you have your fury for making attacks. Buff animi are range 6, and large bases are a little over 2", so you would really need an 8" bubble for denying spells to be worth much.
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    As always, it's all about the meta. This is exactly why I've been advocating for more specialist format events. In many matchups, the Indictor is strictly inferior to the Templar, but in a few important ones, it's much better. Specialists should be a standard part of regular steamroller this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Templar View Post
    True, but 5" is still too small to really effect a beast. If the animus is self, the beast is usually better off anyway just buying attacks on the likely already hurt Indictor.

    If its not self, 5" is too small to keep something outside the bubble from applying the animus anyway. Buff animi are rarely put on the beast with its own fury. You use your warlock or another beast to buff it so you have your fury for making attacks. Buff animi are range 6, and large bases are a little over 2", so you would really need an 8" bubble for denying spells to be worth much.
    a) The major draw of the Indictor is the shield and Sacred Ward, not the anti-magic bubble.

    b) As with most Aura effects that aren't on character models, the Indictor's effect gets considerably better the more of them you have.

    c) It might not be worth 15 points, but it's definitely worth 14. I don't think that qualifies as Deliverer levels of bad, or anything remotely close to that.
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    a) The major draw of the Indictor is the shield and Sacred Ward, not the anti-magic bubble.
    but youre still paying like 2 extra points for the anti-magic bubble.

    If the indictor was 13 points with no anti-magic bubble at all, it would be way better than 15 points with a useless anti-magic bubble.

    I dont like having to pay extra points for useless abilities I dont even want.

    b) As with most Aura effects that aren't on character models, the Indictor's effect gets considerably better the more of them you have.
    yes the aura gets better when you have more indictors. but your battlegroup also gets worse when you have more indictors too, because you give up taking better warjacks to take indictors.

    c) It might not be worth 15 points, but it's definitely worth 14. I don't think that qualifies as Deliverer levels of bad, or anything remotely close to that.
    Id be okay with it at 14 points and staying as is (or 13 pts and losing consecration entirely). 15 points is a bit over the acceptable margin of being overpriced though.

    And I agree the indictor is far from our worst heavy. that distinction belongs to the castigator.
    Last edited by Soulblighter; 01-07-2017 at 04:25 AM.

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    I think the awkwardness people face when comparing things to the cheapest Jack is how much free stuff we get now

    In Mk2 you get 6 or so Free Warbeast Points which basically covered 1 Warjack, or even only part of a Warjack usually. So you wanted to maximize those 6 points to its fullest

    Now you get 30 or so Free Warbeast Point and every single additional Warjack you bring is another Free Focus your Warcaster gets. So bringing 3 Crusaders who are mechanically pretty awesome is really enticing compared to bringing only 2 of something that is only slightly better. Hell, there are solos that cost like 4 points who's only real benefit is that they are effectively 1 more focus!

    (I understand all the fallacies with my statements, the fallacies are kinda of the point)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblighter View Post
    no rush. im sure one day well all agree its bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danith00 View Post
    Soulblighter and Co. The everything is terrible in Menoth crew
    Honestly, statements like these are not only unfair, but also stifle discussion much more than any negativity they bring. Instead of flat out ignoring the comments you don't like, just state the reasons for your disagreement and move on. However gloomy Soublighter or Grey Templar are they usually at least bring some sort of arguments to their claims.

    As for the Indictor, it's probably just the honeymoon buzz for it finally being released 2 years after it's announcement. If you want a tanky Jack just bring a Templar. It's only really provides Blessed P+S17 and MAT7. Depending on his cost, Eye of Truth is gonna trump it unless you're running pairs.

    The anti-magic bubble, along with the Sorceress's anti-shooting bubble in Legion, is that they're ranges are much too short to be useful when they can just be attacked from outside their range. It'd would've been much better for these abilities to be an "anti-snipe" that reduced the range of attacks targeting them. 10-12" attacks suddenly become 6-8". To balance this it could only affect other models and only provide the "aura projector" with +2 DEF against the relevant attacks. I think magic equivalent is Mage Static on Ret's Soulless Escort and formerly on Legion's Legionnaire Standard Bearer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavriel View Post
    As always, it's all about the meta. This is exactly why I've been advocating for more specialist format events. In many matchups, the Indictor is strictly inferior to the Templar, but in a few important ones, it's much better. Specialists should be a standard part of regular steamroller this year.
    Nah, PP should just fix the bad models instead of putting in even more effort to make janky formats that might make bad stuff more palatable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Templar View Post
    Nah, PP should just fix the bad models instead of putting in even more effort to make janky formats that might make bad stuff more palatable.
    eh, bad with a niche is better than straight bad, and the Indictor would certainly have a niche in Specialist games against certain casters (Haley2, for example.)

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    The nerf to Time Bomb actually makes the Indictor less attractive in that situation because Choir can put spell immunity on everybody. So why pay extra and opportunity cost when you can be almost as good for way cheaper?

    The problem with the Indictor's "niche" is that it is non-existent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Templar View Post
    The nerf to Time Bomb actually makes the Indictor less attractive in that situation because Choir can put spell immunity on everybody. So why pay extra and opportunity cost when you can be almost as good for way cheaper?

    The problem with the Indictor's "niche" is that it is non-existent.
    How about a simple "I want a tanky jack that also happens to sport MAT 7" because I have no mat fixers in my list? A Templar offers Shield Guard, Chain Weapon and RNG +1. The Indictor has Spell Immunity even the turn I sing battle for my Reckoners to shoot/I am going in, Blessed and Magical Weapon, +1 MAT and the bubble. Since nobody has ever claimed the Templar was overcosted, they seem quite good in comparison.
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    It does not compare favorably.

    Its overcosted by a solid 2 points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesoe View Post
    I have touched this man's Durst. I can tell you it is legit.
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    Make 'em run! Make 'em burn!
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  39. #39

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    I've been putting it in my cygnar drop cause of the journeyman's arcane shield (i still hate that they get +3 arm on a stick). I do think it's a better specialist piece than an every game piece.
    My other car is Moon's Spawn
    Quote Originally Posted by Citadel97501 View Post
    I didn't really look that close at the Reckoner for him due to its low defense and lack of a shield.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arractur View Post
    Oh GOD, not my braincells!!!

  40. #40
    Destroyer of Worlds Swampmist's Avatar
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    Jul 2016
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    1,253

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    Eh, I think 14 would be fine. Mat 7 and blessed with the same pow is worth a lot.

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