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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3z View Post
    Watching people try to cost a Indictor from a Crusader is like watching the error grow on a Euler's method graph.

    If you want to cost a warjack, you gotta use the closest reference you have. Anything else is a waste.
    The only info we have on how PP costed their stuff is that they pegged the slayer as an arbitrary 10 and worked from there. Which means that the most likely measuring stick that was put into our faction is, in fact, the crusader.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblighter View Post
    having a critical effect is better than not having one at all thats just common sense.
    As is having a bubble is better than not have one.

    .. sorry, that was too tempting.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    The only info we have on how PP costed their stuff is that they pegged the slayer as an arbitrary 10 and worked from there. Which means that the most likely measuring stick that was put into our faction is, in fact, the crusader.
    I just think it's fruitless trying to recreate that process. The greater the distance (in PC) from the baseline heavy, the wider the window where everyone's estimates will lie.

    I doubt we'd see 2.25 points difference between estimates (which we saw from Grey and Neon working from the Crusader) if we started from the Templar.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by d3z View Post
    I just think it's fruitless trying to recreate that process. The greater the distance (in PC) from the baseline heavy, the wider the window where everyone's estimates will lie.

    I doubt we'd see 2.25 points difference between estimates (which we saw from Grey and Neon working from the Crusader) if we started from the Templar.
    Starting from the Templar carries its own error carried forward if the Templar is 'wrong', though. either way, we're all guessing at a black box. I was just explaining why the crusader was the chosen comparison, and why that's probably the right way to do it.

    FWIW, I'm in the "14" camp, but the next errata is far off and I severely doubt the indictor will get inspected for it. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my pair of them.
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  5. #125
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    I doubt we'd see 2.25 points difference between estimates (which we saw from Grey and Neon working from the Crusader) if we started from the Templar.
    Yeah but common sense tells you the Indictor and Templar arnt equal.

    +1 MAT, blessed, sacred ward, consecration isnt equal to 2" reach, chain weapon, shieldguard, beatback

    Whether you compare the Indictor to the Juggy, Crusader, or Templar the conclusion is the same. It should cost 14 points.
    Last edited by Soulblighter; 01-11-2017 at 08:32 AM.

  6. #126
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    If the Indictor is indeed undercosted, and indeed it may be, there are far more egregious models that I would prefer to be looked at first. The Vanquisher is definitely overcosted, for example.
    I feel that the perception of overcost comes from the Aura. Either it's very useful indeed or it really isn't and there doesn't seem to be any middle ground.
    I personally find that the blessed MAT 7 sword is useful on its own.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblighter View Post
    Yeah but common sense tells you the Indictor and Templar arnt equal.

    +1 MAT, blessed, sacred ward, consecration isnt equal to +2" reach, chain weapon, shieldguard, beatback
    You're right, it's better!

    I think you have made a great argument that Indictor is worth at least 16 points and is now undercosted.

  8. #128
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    there are far more egregious models that I would prefer to be looked at first.
    There are. but we arnt discussing them atm.

    I would be glad to discuss why the Castigator is egregiously overcosted though. Even moreso than the Indictor.

    I think you have made a great argument that Indictor is worth at least 16 points and is now undercosted.
    That makes no sense.

    reach and shield guard are both high value abilities that virtually always come into play. Where the only high value ability the indictor has is +1 mat really. the rest of the abilities are all situational. the templar is simply more useful in a wider variety of matchups where the indictor is niche and only useful in particular matchups.

    the templar is better than the indictor. most people have accepted that at this stage. very few people are still clinging to the idea that the templar and indictor are equal.

    templar = fine at 15 points
    indictor = should cost 14 points
    Last edited by Soulblighter; 01-11-2017 at 08:42 AM.

  9. #129

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    To be fair, blessed actually just lost value, because we can give it out with EoT now :/

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmist View Post
    To be fair, blessed actually just lost value, because we can give it out with EoT now :/
    I don't see myself paying 20 points for that in every list.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblighter View Post
    the templar is better than the indictor. most people have accepted that at this stage. very few people are still clinging to the idea that the templar and indictor are equal.
    We should count how many people actually say it.

    Besides, Shield Guard has no point to exist against lists with no shooting or with Sprays. Basically any caster has at least a zap that can be blocked by Sacred Ward.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender101 View Post
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  12. #132
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmist View Post
    To be fair, blessed actually just lost value, because we can give it out with EoT now :/
    That is a lot of models to keep within 5" of Eye of Truth...
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  13. #133
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    Besides, Shield Guard has no point to exist against lists with no shooting or with Sprays. Basically any caster has at least a zap that can be blocked by Sacred Ward.
    virtually all competitive lists in the current meta employ shooting. gunline is the current meta afterall.

    and no one casts zap on heavy warjacks with shields to begin with. its a waste of focus on an ARM21 jack.

    the templars ARM21 is already more than sufficient to take zap out of the picture. so it doesnt need sacred ward.

    sacred ward is only useful in specific matchups where both shooting and spells are a concern, generally always haley matchups, where TK or scramble are involved. Conversely shield guard is useful in virtually every matchup there is.

    To be fair, blessed actually just lost value, because we can give it out with EoT now :/
    this is a very good point too.

    both blessed and consecration lose value because of EoT. its also a shield jack with SPD5 and reach which puts the indictor to shame being SPD4 and no reach.

    if youre already 15 points deep on an indictor why not go 5 extra deep for EoT? its that good.

    Indictor isnt quite in the coffin yet but EoT was certainly another nail. or maybe even a few nails.

    That is a lot of models to keep within 5" of Eye of Truth...
    Yes but you can move models within 5" of EOT, attack with them, then activate EoT and move it, then move even more models within 5" of EoT and attack with them.

    EoT is gonna want to activate in the middle of your turn in order to maximize the number of models that can benefit from its aura.
    Last edited by Soulblighter; 01-11-2017 at 09:02 AM.

  14. #134

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    Also, as it happens, Haley is also the one match-up where the Aura is incredibly relevant, as her Character Jack can channel while engaged.

  15. #135
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    So, I think our disagreement comes from how we view the jack. I see the indictot as a sidegrade to the templar that you play if it benefits your metagame. I would play the indictor over the templar if I expect more cygnar/ret, or with durst, and play the templar into a generally unkown metagame.
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  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblighter View Post
    Then how do you explain the juggernaut only costing 12? obviously your numbers are completely wrong.
    And yet my numbers are right by the game designers, by tournament lists, and what actually works. Yours fail.

    Fundamentally the Juggernaut waddles slowly and hits things with his axe, and does nothing else. Compared to the Crusader offensively it has +1 MAT and +1 STR and a better critical effect. Defensively it has +1 ARM and +2 damage boxes. Each of these is worth at least a point but neither is worth two points. And then the Choir cancels out the more aggressive costing.

    juggernaut is also MAT7. Its main is P+S19 which is approximately the same as P+S17 blessed. And it has one of the best critical effects in the game. Its also got +2 POW on its secondary weapon.
    Critical Stationary isn't that great on MAT 7 unless you're up against a Warp Wolf. But agreed the suite matches up.

    it has ARM20 and +2 wounds which is at least equal to but likely better than ARM19 with a shield.
    Hah! Nope. If you try charging with POW 12 infantry (i.e. strong non-specialist armour crackers) the difference between ARM 20 and ARM 21 is shown to be huge. And that's quite a bit of infantry. Against any heavy warjack without a chain weapon (and remember the game only has about 30 options with - and we don't care about ones like Jaga-Jaga or the Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor) a hit from a POW 18 primary weapon from a heavy does 4 or 5 damage on average depending which jack it's to - and it's probably not worth boosting as you miss that DEF so rarely. Those two damage points are worth very little at all here. And if a heavy gets into your back arc you screwed up. So that just leaves the situation where the arm gets chopped off.

    In short defensively the Indictor is vastly superior. Almost a full point superior.

    so if we say the indictor and juggy are equal (juggy is better but for sake of argument lets say theyre equal) the indictor is worth 12 points at this stage... before factoring in sacred ward and consecration. Being generous, sacred ward is worth 1 point, and consecration at best is worth 0.5 points. that gets us to 13.5 points for the cost of the Indictor.
    And given how vastly you undervalue a point of ARM we're up to 14.5. Again.

    Now lets do the Crusader vs Indictor comparison PROPERLY. And not leave out important details this time like losing -1 POW on the shield.
    Quoted for irony. To put things simply the POW of your secondary weapon is nowhere near as important as the POW of your primary weapon. You do not buy extra attacks with your secondary weapon. You do not take free strikes with your secondary weapon. (OK, there's Scourge of Heresy).

    Also MAT helps the secondary weapon as much as it does the primary weapon. Possibly more because the one time a secondary attack is as good as a primary one is when you are trying to punch out a solo or grunt and the POW almost doesn't matter.

    So once we've fixed your attempt to claim that the Castigator hits harder than the Crusader because it has +2 POW on its secondary weapon to counteract the 2 POW on its primary and the Castigator gets continuous fire rather than critical fire on its attacks we find out that the Indictor is worth more than 14 points.

    And I still don't see why you are comparing the Indictor to a jack very unlike it in the Crusader when a strong jack with almost the same features is right there in the Templar and as I have pointed out the features pretty much pair up.

    And if we're going for cross-faction comparisons, let's look at the Centurion - another jack with the same SPD, the same ARM, and a shield - it's far closer than the Juggernaut or the Crusader. Defensively the Centurion has +1 DEF and the Polarity Field imprint. The Indictor has Sacred Ward, spell interdiction, and 2 extra damage boxes. Offensively the Centurion has 1" extra reach, an extra point of POW, and a critical that you don't get when you want. vs Magical Weapon and Blessed. Yes, the Centurion's better. But is it two full points better?

    And the Centurion and especially the Templar are a lot more like the Indictor than the Crusader and Juggernaut. So why use the cheap jacks as opposed to the shield jacks?

  17. #137
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    I think the issue is that the Indictor is worth its points in lists that are built for it to be worth its points. If I'm building an anti-TK list, I'm taking Indictors. If I'm building an anti-teleport list, I'm taking Indictors. If I'm building a list to go against mass magic (like Druids, for instance, but most other factions now have a lot of magic casting infantry), I'm taking Indictors. Some of those (TK for Haley2, teleport for Wurmwood) are the current meta. Some of those are not. That doesn't mean the Indictor is not worth his points... it just means the Indictor doesn't answer the current meta. If every 'jack is designed around the current meta, we'll be complaining that all our 'jacks are worthless when that meta changes. It's *good* to have a 'jack like the Indictor, because even though he only falls into niche lists now, we may need him in a lot more lists in 6 or 8 months.
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTNeophyte View Post
    So, I think our disagreement comes from how we view the jack. I see the indictot as a sidegrade to the templar that you play if it benefits your metagame. I would play the indictor over the templar if I expect more cygnar/ret, or with durst, and play the templar into a generally unkown metagame.
    This. I know which jack I want four games out of five against random opponents. I also know which one I want in a meta where I'm expecting to meet Butcher3, Hayley2, 3Hayleys, Denny1, and the Coven. And it's not the same jack.

    Edit: And yes, objecting that the Indictor is a single point overcosted is quibbling over details. The Castigator on the other hand is much more of a problem.
    Last edited by neonchameleon; 01-11-2017 at 10:29 AM.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by neonchameleon View Post
    This. I know which jack I want four games out of five against random opponents. I also know which one I want in a meta where I'm expecting to meet Butcher3, Hayley2, 3Hayleys, Denny1, and the Coven. And it's not the same jack.

    Edit: And yes, objecting that the Indictor is a single point overcosted is quibbling over details. The Castigator on the other hand is much more of a problem.
    Castigator needs a chain attack or some sort of burning throw. Anything to really amp up its obvious aggression. I wouldn't mind adding a point for adding a lot of awesome.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTNeophyte View Post
    So, I think our disagreement comes from how we view the jack. I see the indictot as a sidegrade to the templar that you play if it benefits your metagame. I would play the indictor over the templar if I expect more cygnar/ret, or with durst, and play the templar into a generally unkown metagame.
    I agree. The Templar is what I'd generally take to thwart ranged assassinations, whereas the Indictor is what I'd generally take to avoid ranged attrition, control spells, and ARM debuffs. Wurmwood and Mohsar couldn't care less about a Templar, but an Indictor is much harder for them to deal with, for example. eKrueger and Haley2 hate the Indictor because it reduces their otherwise amazing control suite to one turn of feating and that's it. Cygnar's not going to like the Indictor in matchups where they make you choose between ranged or spell resistance, and neither is Ret (though Ret has a lot more magic guns, so the Templar is generally going to be better). Backlash casters will hate it, Cryx in general will hate it, etc. So... there's plenty of room for it right now.

    My problem with the Indictor isn't actually a problem with the Indictor... it's a problem with the Avatar costing so damn much and not being a part of battlegroups... because OH MY GOD I would throw the Avatar and 3 Indictors into Amon's list so fast if Avatar could join battlegroups... Gaze of Menoth and the Indictor's bubble go together so well...
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  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    Castigator needs a chain attack or some sort of burning throw. Anything to really amp up its obvious aggression. I wouldn't mind adding a point for adding a lot of awesome.
    I'd assumed it would get Chain Attack: Smash & Grab going into Mk3. At which point it might or might not be great - but it would have the definite virtue of being fun.

  22. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by neonchameleon View Post
    I'd assumed it would get Chain Attack: Smash & Grab going into Mk3. At which point it might or might not be great - but it would have the definite virtue of being fun.
    Agreed, hence the burning throw idea. IDGAF if it's good, if I can toss burning warjacks back at their owners, that WILL be happening.
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  23. #143
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    Castigator needs a chain attack or some sort of burning throw. Anything to really amp up its obvious aggression. I wouldn't mind adding a point for adding a lot of awesome.
    it needs a spray attack IMO to justify it being in malekus starter box.

    or they need to allow melee attacks to be fire type.

    either way it needs to synergize with malekus better.

    Agreed, hence the burning throw idea. IDGAF if it's good, if I can toss burning warjacks back at their owners, that WILL be happening.
    yeah if its melee attacks were fire type damage and it had chain attack smash and grab that could work with malekus too
    Last edited by Soulblighter; 01-11-2017 at 11:24 AM.

  24. #144
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    I would suggest this. Has anyone seen some trailers/played some Titanfall 2? Do you know the Scorch Titan's Core ability? Well, it's basically the robot smashing the ground in front of it with both arms. This sends forth a blasting wave that ravages the area much like a spray. I liked that concept so much I see it fit the Castigator so much.
    Chain Attack: Scorched Earth. After hitting the same target with both its initial attacks, this model can immediately make a ranged attack targeting the enemy model. The attack has the following profile.
    SP 6 RoF * AoE - POW 14 , Knockdown.
    This would require the jack to go up a point tho.
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  25. #145
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    This would require the jack to go up a point tho.
    why? its not worth 12 as is. Castigator is the most overcosted jack in our lineup. Way more so than the Indictor.

  26. #146
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    I'd like that ok. Honestly, I think I'd rather it have Chain Attack Combustion (and possibly retain regular combustion).
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  27. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblighter View Post
    why? its not worth 12 as is. Castigator is the most overcosted jack in our lineup. Way more so than the Indictor.
    Well I'd rather try with a bit more than a bit less. As is, I am not entirely sold on it not being worth 12. It is still a heavy warjack with 2 Open Fists and on the Reckoner chassis.
    Seeing #designspace makes my inner Reznik grumble.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender101 View Post
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    More than just trying to learn the new rules and remember the differences, a part of the trauma is simply trying to let go of the old way of thinking, and obsessing over what was, and no longer is.

  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by EchoDelta View Post
    Well I'd rather try with a bit more than a bit less. As is, I am not entirely sold on it not being worth 12. It is still a heavy warjack with 2 Open Fists and on the Reckoner chassis.
    Those 2 handed throws have helped me in more then a few games, just the ability to throw a threat out of a zone or at another beast can be some nice control.

  29. #149
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    think I'd rather it have Chain Attack Combustion (and possibly retain regular combustion).
    Chain attack combustion wouldnt really work in practice. because in order to trigger a chain attack you need to hit the same model twice. infantry tend not to survive being hit more than one, and theyre the models you most likely want to use combustion on.

    Although I suppose they could change the chain attack rules so only both initials need to hit instead of both initials needing to hit the same model.

  30. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblighter View Post
    Chain attack combustion wouldnt really work in practice. because in order to trigger a chain attack you need to hit the same model twice. infantry tend not to survive being hit more than one, and theyre the models you most likely want to use combustion on.

    Although I suppose they could change the chain attack rules so only both initials need to hit instead of both initials needing to hit the same model.
    It'd be nice if it were "chain attack combust them" and models within 2" of the target you chain attacked took that pow 12 damage roll.

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