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  1. #1
    Combatant pilgrim of bells's Avatar
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    Default Avatar of Menoth's Job

    Where do you feel the Avatar of Menoth fits in? What kind of lists want to take the Avatar? It is clearly a powerful tool in our arsenal but I have a hard time fitting it in.

  2. #2
    Conqueror BlackOpsElf's Avatar
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    At first glance, the Avatar seems like he'd fit into a lot of lists (after all, he deals a ton of damage, generates his own focus, and has a range of powerful abilities that can really throw your opponent's plans out of alignment). While this might have been true in MkII, a variety of rules changes have drastically altered the Avatar's role in the Protectorate arsenal: in order to get the most out of our God-piloted robot, he needs to be paired with a caster with a very specific set of powers and limitations. I've found that Severius1 is one of those casters, for the following reasons:

    (1) Since he's a relatively slow melee 'jack, the Avatar needs some help getting to the front lines. Sacred Ward and Hymn of Passage protect him from most attacks, but he's still vulnerable to "big damage" attacks from opponents with magical weapons/weapons that have been made magical. Many opponents can only throw one or two of these at you per turn, and Severius1's Vision spell goes a long way towards ensuring the Avatar's safety.

    (2) The Avatar costs a lot of points, and none of them can come from your caster's warjack point allotment. Since Severius1 basically requires 1-2 arc nodes to function properly, I often find that I still need to take another centerpiece heavy with him even after I spend all of his warjack points.

    (3) Severius1 has a lot of support abilities, none of which are battlegroup-specific. Eye of Menoth and Death Sentence help Avatar smash face.

    (4) I often take Severius1 with a lot of infantry and attempt to win via scenario. Menoth's Gaze is a great tool for keeping my opponent from approaching the objectives I control.

    Edit - Here's a sample list:

    Sev1
    -Guardian
    -Blessing of Vengeance
    Avatar
    Choir (min)
    Rhoven, Gius, and Cassian
    Errants (max) + UA
    Errants (max) + UA
    Wrack
    Wrack
    Last edited by BlackOpsElf; 01-07-2017 at 10:02 PM.

  3. #3
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    Well... a minor point but... he's not a slow melee 'jack. With SPD 5 and Reach, he's the fastest 'jack we have (tied for it, at least, with the Reckoner and Sanctifier).

    Something I've been thinking about recently is taking the 'jack with Indictors. People have been making a lot of noise about the Indictor's bubble being too small and allowing affected models to simply step out of it, but they can't do that if they're locked down by Gaze of Menoth. As you said, Severius is a good choice for this... great support abilities, and Vision helps the Avatar survive the opponent's desperate attempt to clear the Avatar from the table. Most casters, if locked down by movement and unable to cast spells, are going to be pretty thoroughly screwed... no teleporting away, no buffing their 'jacks and beasts, nothing. That, in turn, makes the 21 ARM of the Avatar and Indictors considerably more durable.

    There are two major issues with this plan though... 1) You have to be able to see the Avatar for Gaze of Menoth to work. Ohhh how I'm hoping for an Epic Avatar character colossal for this reason. 2) We have no way to give the Avatar pathfinder aside from Bounding Charge, and that's unfortunately only on two casters... it also doesn't help in the matchups we need it most, like Wurmwood, because you have to see the target to charge. If it worked on tramples, it wouldn't be a problem at all.

    In the end, as neat as this trick would be (and as honestly unforseen as it would be, because let's face it, I don't think many tournament regulars have played much against the Avatar OR the Indictor in Mk. III, let alone together), 35 points is a lot to devote to a neat trick. Thankfully, they do other things too, of course, but I doubt this would ever gain any traction with the forum crowds even at 5 or 10 points less.
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  4. #4
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    Well... a minor point but... he's not a slow melee 'jack. With SPD 5 and Reach, he's the fastest 'jack we have (tied for it, at least, with the Reckoner and Sanctifier).
    hes slow in the sense he doesnt benefit from battlegroup spells like mobility, escort, feora3's redline, etc...

    considering how much MK3 has changed our casters to revolve around battlegroups I feel they need to allow the avatar to join battlegroups.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackraine View Post
    1) You have to be able to see the Avatar for Gaze of Menoth to work.
    Yeah this is the biggest problem with Gaze vs a caster - everyone has figured out that you only need two small bases or sometimes one medium base to activate first, and now you can just walk away.

  6. #6
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    Honestly... if it could benefit from battlegroup buffs, Severius 2 would be amazing for Avatar. Awareness would keep intervening models from breaking Gaze, and Oracular Vision would help keep it alive when it pissed off the whole army. I do agree with Soulblighter... its inability to benefit from battlegroup buffs, when battlegroup buffs are the largest component in how our 'jacks work now (and, for that matter, how 'jacks work in Mk. III period) is its biggest drawback. Without them, it's probably only 16-18 points worth of 'jack. With them, it'd easily be a 22 point 'jack.
    Last edited by Blackraine; 01-07-2017 at 11:33 PM.
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  7. #7
    Combatant pilgrim of bells's Avatar
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    If PP wanted, they could very simply let it hop into a battle group but generate focus differently and not power-up.

    I see the Avatar as a power piece, but its power revolves around hitting hard, and gaze. Without the tricks of the battle group he just needs to be able to do more for us.

  8. #8
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    Hey, it's this thread again!
    tl;dr of the past few occurances of this thread:
    The Avatar is too expensive for what it does given that it doesn't belong to a battle group and you can't buy it with jack points. 20 points buys a lot of things which are debately more useful. Battle Engine + 2 Mechanics, Indictor + 2 Vassals (1 point more), Errants + UA, Idrians + UA, Vengers, Flamebringers, etc.

    For reference:
    Here's the last one.
    And another slightly before that.
    And another around the launch of mk3!
    Last edited by Zzapper; 01-08-2017 at 02:50 AM. Reason: Autocorrect hates me
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  9. #9
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zzapper View Post
    Hey, it's this thread again!
    tl;dr of the past few occurances of this thread:
    The Avatar is too expensive for what it does given that it doesn't belong to a battle group and you can't buy it with jack points. 20 points buys a lot of things which are debately more useful. Battle Engine + 2 Mechanics, Indictor + 2 Vassals (1 point more), Errants + UA, Idrians + UA, Vengers, Flamebringers, etc.

    For reference:
    Here's the last one.
    And another slightly before that.
    And another around the launch of mk3!
    I'm involved with all three threads and I stand by what I said.
    The Avatar is a solid piece to control a flank, he can mathematically (though it is extremely unlikely, like winning the lottery unlikely) one round a colossal so he can't be ignored. He can bully what few troops are on the table and if you foul up activations enough, gaze is doing its job.
    I've since found him useful as a counter to an arcane shielded Centurian holding a flank or zone because his raw P&S is such that losing the ability to charge is nothing.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spideredd View Post
    I'm involved with all three threads and I stand by what I said.
    The Avatar is a solid piece to control a flank, he can mathematically (though it is extremely unlikely, like winning the lottery unlikely) one round a colossal so he can't be ignored. He can bully what few troops are on the table and if you foul up activations enough, gaze is doing its job.
    I've since found him useful as a counter to an arcane shielded Centurian holding a flank or zone because his raw P&S is such that losing the ability to charge is nothing.
    The centurion's anti-charge is less about damage and more about threat range. You should never, EVER charge with a warjack unless you need the distance. if you need the boosted damage, just do so after rolling the attack and seeing a hit.

    Now, warrior model OTOH, yeah the centurion makes them suck against it.
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  11. #11
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    The centurion's anti-charge is less about damage and more about threat range. You should never, EVER charge with a warjack unless you need the distance. if you need the boosted damage, just do so after rolling the attack and seeing a hit.
    The Centurion is a difficult piece to shift when it's arcane shielded.
    Fortunately, it has a terrible threat range itself.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    The centurion's anti-charge is less about damage and more about threat range. You should never, EVER charge with a warjack unless you need the distance. if you need the boosted damage, just do so after rolling the attack and seeing a hit.

    Now, warrior model OTOH, yeah the centurion makes them suck against it.
    This.

    My life got vastly simpler when I realized I could trample for the same range. Yes, you lose 2-3 potential attacks, but having the option to have the alpha anyway goes a long way toward making it a less oppressive thing to see across the table.
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  13. #13
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch4ngel View Post
    This.

    My life got vastly simpler when I realized I could trample for the same range. Yes, you lose 2-3 potential attacks, but having the option to have the alpha anyway goes a long way toward making it a less oppressive thing to see across the table.
    Slams are good too, but the Centurion can't be slammed either.
    I like using other peoples models to damage their own models.
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  14. #14
    Warrior WolfsSOL's Avatar
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    Well I'll be giving the Avatar ago in a Kreoss 3 list for a few games. While you can't have both ignite and assail on it at the same time, either can be good depending on what you need.

  15. #15

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    I played a couple times with K3 and Avatar and both times I thought the Avatar was worth it. They are complimentary in my opinion, I don't have a second unit of Vengers anyway

  16. #16
    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    So far I've ran the Avatar with Thyra, Kreoss3 and Reznik2 - all are somewhat less battlegroup-dependent in their effects (Reznik2 has Curse, but at MAT8 the Avatar needs it less anyway and Curse can't be everywhere) and crucially can provide the big guy with a threat range buff on the turn he wants to go in.

    With the fighting stats it has it's a huge enough threat that your opponent will really have to respect it, and nothing says 'screw your defensive stats' like Thyra's Avatar swinging in at MAT10 PS23. It's an alright warjack, most of our casters just don't want it as is because of the battlegroup clause.
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  17. #17
    Combatant pilgrim of bells's Avatar
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    Whelp, now this question is harder to answer with the Eye of Truth in our midst. Avatar doesn't seem to have a job he solely good at anymore.

  18. #18
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    I just played it with Durst yesterday. P+S 21 is amazing. It brought down an Earthborn with focus to spare. Sadly I was playing against Doomie 2 and I basically did 10 damage to it with 2 rolls
    My BGP are over after a Reckoner and a half, so I don't mind it. DEF 10 does not benefit that much from Bulwark (unlike Reckoners). The only sad part is No Feat. But it is tanky enough on its own, and Durst offers it Boundless Charge, Deceleration and Hallowed Avenger.
    Last edited by EchoDelta; 01-11-2017 at 12:58 AM. Reason: Also MAT 8, Gaze and Sacred Ward. Gotta love those. And Flame Burst for thse pesky Whelps ;)
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  19. #19

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    the avatar's job (for me atleast) is to be a big stop sign.

    he is big, he is tough, and he says "you SHALL NOT PASS"
    he doesn't go for the alpha, he takes the alpha, and denies the opponent the alpha on the rest of your army.

    i always found that his job is to allow you to be more aggresive with army, POP the menoth's gaze and just run the heavy upfront. immune to all ranged attacks (minus magical) and catching the dangerous front line in his 8" bubble; he forces your opponent in a akward spot.

    all the while he suddenly cannot commit his front line like he wants.

    this is how i committed the avatar in mark 2 and how i have in mark 3. the problem how ever is that its ALOT of points i'm spending for this ammount of controll.

    i feel like he costs a bit too much for this purpose how ever and it also feels like a waste if you commit a PS 19 heavy with reach with the assumption it will or might DIE after forfulling his "you shall not pass" role.
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlzheimer View Post
    the avatar's job (for me atleast) is to be a big stop sign.

    he is big, he is tough, and he says "you SHALL NOT PASS"
    he doesn't go for the alpha, he takes the alpha, and denies the opponent the alpha on the rest of your army.

    i always found that his job is to allow you to be more aggresive with army, POP the menoth's gaze and just run the heavy upfront. immune to all ranged attacks (minus magical) and catching the dangerous front line in his 8" bubble; he forces your opponent in a akward spot.

    all the while he suddenly cannot commit his front line like he wants.

    this is how i committed the avatar in mark 2 and how i have in mark 3. the problem how ever is that its ALOT of points i'm spending for this ammount of controll.

    i feel like he costs a bit too much for this purpose how ever and it also feels like a waste if you commit a PS 19 heavy with reach with the assumption it will or might DIE after forfulling his "you shall not pass" role.
    I feel 20 points he doesn't do because most of the time he isn't tanky enough to take a full alpha 1 Beast fully pumped up can usually kill him freeing up the rest of the army and now your 20points down I've had more success in enlivening a crusader and running it in front of the heavies I need to the same outcome happens but I only lose 10 and still taken 1 beasts activation.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlzheimer View Post
    the avatar's job (for me atleast) is to be a big stop sign.

    he is big, he is tough, and he says "you SHALL NOT PASS"
    he doesn't go for the alpha, he takes the alpha, and denies the opponent the alpha on the rest of your army.

    i always found that his job is to allow you to be more aggresive with army, POP the menoth's gaze and just run the heavy upfront. immune to all ranged attacks (minus magical) and catching the dangerous front line in his 8" bubble; he forces your opponent in a akward spot.

    all the while he suddenly cannot commit his front line like he wants.

    this is how i committed the avatar in mark 2 and how i have in mark 3. the problem how ever is that its ALOT of points i'm spending for this ammount of controll.

    i feel like he costs a bit too much for this purpose how ever and it also feels like a waste if you commit a PS 19 heavy with reach with the assumption it will or might DIE after forfulling his "you shall not pass" role.
    In my Durst list I use the TFG for that purpose. Since they are faster they can run turn 1 and be 2" ahead of the Avatar and friends. They can then walk 6" and Shield Wall and still be 25" (28" if second) up the table. It is usually enough to be a pain for the enemy. Arm 19 against shooting/magic and DEF 15 against charges. And if you kill them you proc Hallowed Avenger.
    That or I use it to pick off stuff like Scyrah Assassins or Kayazi Eliminators. They struggle to damage ARM 21, and cannot go onto more valuable targets (so basically a girl with a whip """""decapitated"""" my Colossal and dealt 18 damage?) What the hell mate.
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  22. #22
    Conqueror Smarf's Avatar
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    At the same point cost as EoT, with all the disadvantages of not being in battlegroup and having no gun means he basically has no place now

  23. #23
    Destroyer of Worlds Terraneaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smarf View Post
    At the same point cost as EoT, with all the disadvantages of not being in battlegroup and having no gun means he basically has no place now
    #designspace
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  24. #24
    Conqueror ZagNation's Avatar
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    Is he something I'd take in every list? Not even close, but he acts really well as a control piece. Gaze provides some ridiculously awesome board control. I've had great success running him along a flank, outside a zone and popping gaze in order to keep enemy models away from my flag or out of the zone. Typically he'll die on turn four to a few charges, but that's usually worth at least two points and removing several heavies from play for a turn (more than likely also setting up an opening for a couterpunch on them). Throw Defender's Ward on him, and he's locking pieces up for days with gaze.

    Not always my first choice, and Eye will replace him in a lot of lists, but to say that he's bad isn't really true. Outclassed? Maybe.

  25. #25
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smarf View Post
    At the same point cost as EoT, with all the disadvantages of not being in battlegroup and having no gun means he basically has no place now
    This is not quite, but very nearly true.
    The Avatar still has Gaze, and Gaze doesn't specify base size, so it does work on colossals and gargantuans. He also has a higher MAT and base P&S.
    The Avatar also puts no strain on the caster for Focus at all.

    I actually feel that Eye of Truth and the Avatar will work very well together, after all, what's better than a blessed P&S 18? a blessed P&S 19.
    What's better than a gun? a gun that can't be charged through Gaze.
    The downside to having both working together is that it costs between a third and a half of your available points and you still have to buy at least one more 'jack.

    I'll agree that Eye of Truth has mostly obsoleted the Avatar, but the Avatar still has a place, it's just far more limited than it was.
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  26. #26
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    This is not quite, but very nearly true.
    It is true. The avatar was nearly obsolete before EoT because of MK3s shift to battlegroup buffs, field marshals, and powerup.

    Now its completely obsolete after EoT.

    Avatar needs some pretty major buffs. It needs to be allowed to be part of a battlegroup. And it needs some other new ability on top of that.

    I feel 20 points he doesn't do because most of the time he isn't tanky enough to take a full alpha
    Being super tanky isnt his job though. Its EoT's job. Avatar's job should be something else. They should both focus on different aspects of protectorate's faction identity

    EoT is about attrition, ignoring buffs, and versatility. Avatar should be about control, spell/ranged denial, and efficiency.


    On top of letting him join battlegroups, Avatar could get a ranged denial ability like shield guard for example. And maybe give him an affinity with harbinger that increases her CMD by +2" while avatar is B2B with her. That would increase the radius of many of her abilties including her feat which is way too small. Harby would love a warjack with shield guard that also increases her CMD. It fixes her feat and fixes avatar at the same time. win win.
    Last edited by Soulblighter; 01-12-2017 at 02:31 AM.

  27. #27
    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    Strengths:

    - Avatar still hits like a garbage truck full of irate baboons. MAT8 P+S19 is already top-notch, and that's before Choir. Topping out at 4 focus also means it has more attacks with those high numbers when the dice come up flush.

    - It has no Cortex system to cripple, and along with Spell Ward and a sturdy ARM21 that usually gives it a longevity beyond what you'd expect. One-rounding it requires some sort of pretty substantial strength buff or ganging up on it, and as long as the sword arm is intact it's a threat that your opponent can't ignore.

    - Speaking of Spell Ward, having native protection against things like Domination, Telekinesis, Curse of Shadows and similar effects is quite powerful and makes it harder for several casters to 'cheat' trades on the Avatar - doubly so in the Haley2 matchup where it can require some difficult setup to get to apply Choir buffs on her feat turn.

    - It operates without any drain on caster focus and can do so outside of a caster's control range, which is useful for someone like Thyra who is both a bit focus-starved and ends up ninja flipping her way around the battlefield more often than not.

    Drawbacks:

    - It costs an arm and a leg. 20 points is a lot pre-Choir, and what you get out of the deal is a (albeit a very high-output) beatstick: no more, no less.

    - Its random focus generation is unreliable for multi-turn plans. If you have a Vassal around in your list anyway this is less of a hassle, but 33% of the times you want it to charge and explode a sucka it'll get 2 focus and you'll feel a sliver of your soul slowly leave your body.

    - It can't be in a battlegroup and doesn't allow you to spend warjack points on it. This is kind of the elephant in the room in discussions about the MK3 Avatar, as the first point precludes it from inclusion with several casters (Severius2, Amon Ad-Raza, Sovereign Tristan) and combined with price the second makes it a bad spend on casters that don't want to put 50% of their available army points into their battlegroup (High Reclaimer, Testament of Menoth, Scrutator Vindictus). This leaves the Avatar with a fairly slim number of casters where it's both desirable and a worthwhile expenditure of points.
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  28. #28
    Annihilator Talamare's Avatar
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    Avatar suggestion

    Gaze of Menoth - Enemies hit by this weapon deal no damage until the start of your turn.

    That would make him worth his points

  29. #29
    Conqueror BlackOpsElf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talamare View Post
    Avatar suggestion

    Gaze of Menoth - Enemies hit by this weapon deal no damage until the start of your turn.

    That would make him worth his points
    What are you hitting with Avatar that has the chance to swing back at you? Colossals?

  30. #30
    Destroyer of Worlds blakeh1's Avatar
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    Between Eye of Truth and Scourge, the Avatar is pretty much dead to me as a beat stick jack, especially considering the they can benefit from battlegroup buffs. The randomness of focus is just another nail in the coffin and the fact I can't spend warjack points on it just is the final straw

    In MKII the Avatar had a pretty good niche . In MK III it is an expensive paper weight
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  31. #31
    Destroyer of Worlds blakeh1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarskeMannen View Post
    Strengths:..

    - It has no Cortex system to cripple, and along with Spell Ward and a sturdy ARM21 that usually gives it a longevity beyond what you'd expect. One-rounding it requires some sort of pretty substantial strength buff or ganging up on it, and as long as the sword arm is intact it's a threat that your opponent can't ignore.

    ...
    except for some dumb reason, it can still be disrupted
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  32. #32
    Destroyer of Worlds mydnight's Avatar
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    Avatar is okay with Reznik2 due to boundless charge, and Reznik2 liking his focus. He loses out on curse, but doesn't really need it anyway. Durst on the other hand really loves his battle group.
    Last edited by mydnight; 01-12-2017 at 02:27 PM.
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    The strastofear is full of loose havengers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic View Post
    Hmm. Now that you have defeated me I see your point. Why continue my life as a semi-sentient wolf monster when I could become a poorly trained human religious fanatic throwing grenades? Thank you for offering me this chance, Vindictus.

  33. #33
    Destroyer of Worlds Terraneaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blakeh1 View Post
    except for some dumb reason, it can still be disrupted
    They say this was for simplicity but you know it was a (poorly though-out) nerf.
    "I got three words for you now: perish in fire!"

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