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  1. #1

    Default Fixing the "Rage Problem"

    I think it's generally accepted that troll warbeasts are expected to have Rage on them in order to trade effectively with other factions. I believe this creates a problem with the way that trollbloods function on the table and in their design.

    I don't actually mind that Trollblood beasts are a bit below average in the P+S department. What I mind is that there is really only one solution to buffing troll warbeast's melee damage in faction. Designing models with the expectation that they will include rage instead of include melee damage buffs is what I see as the actual "rage problem."

    By expecting rage, and only rage, to be the primary in faction damage buff, it heavily impacts faction design across multiple factors: Animi, Spells, Feats, Statlines and Play.

    Animi: In MK II, Slag and Pyre trolls could be used as buff bots, to provide damage bonuses to melee infantry and warbeasts outside of rage. With the loss of these two options, rage becomes even more important to troll gameplay, and restricts freedom of choice in list design. The expectation that rage is what will provide the damage buff limits opportunity for new beast design, and causes conflict with other useful animi (as noted in Trollock's Is Rush the worst animus in trolls? thread)

    Because you need to buff in order to trade effectively against enemy models, and Rage is the only non-limited damage buff animus available to trollbloods, it forces players' hands in list selection and causes what could potentially be useful models to not see table time.

    Spells: Among troll warcasters, there are only 4/17 damage boosting spells (and one damage boosting ability for Calandra). Two of these are debuffs (Calamity and Mortality), one is only effective against already buffed enemies (Spellpiercer) and only one actually provides a direct damage boost to warbeasts (Pulverizer), with Calandra's Fate Blessed serving as a reroll based Damage fixer.

    In terms of spellcasting units, only the Dhunian Knot provides a damage fixer via puppet master.

    Again, I feel that the expectation of Rage providing the necessary damage buff, instead of giving it through multiple sources, negatively impacts the play experience of the faction. And given that Rask has access to both Rage (through Wrastler) and Fury, there's little reason why the spell lists for troll warlocks can't include more damage buffs of their own.

    Feats: 5/17 warlocks provide damage boosting feats: Borka1 (sort of), Calandra, Horgle2, Madrak1, and Madrak2 (sort of) , usually thanks to improving dice rolls. Dice roll boosts isn't unusual as far as feats go, but given that trolls tend to have lower base damage, they have much farther uphill to climb in order to meet the same level of expected damage to which other factions have access. There are no Troll casters that provide flat number bonuses to Strength or Damage.

    Statlines: As stated before, troll statlines suffer from a lack of base power. Our highest damage non-character heavy only has base P+S 16, and none of our beasts (colossals included) break base P+S 20. Compare to say, Khador (who has multiple warcasters with access to Fury) with their P+S 23 base colossals and 12 pt. P+S 19 Juggernauts.

    The argument could be made that we have the potential to reach higher numbers through buffing, but the biggest swing that can be made in trolls is +6 P+S, and only available on one caster, meaning that we have only one way of even matching Khador's heaviest hitters.

    While I've only got incomplete math to go off of (I need those full card PDFs bad, PP ), it seems that every faction caps out at roughly the same numbers for P+S, but trolls start a little lower and require more investment than other factions to hit those numbers.

    Playstyle: The reliance on rage as a damage buffing mechanism also has significant impact on the playstyle of the trollbloods. Rage is only found on two very expensive centerpiece models. The Mountain King is a Gargantuan, and has everything that comes with that while the Mauler is our main melee brawler. Committing either of these pieces to the fray means you risk the biggest (and possibly only) damage fixer you have, while keeping them back in order to protect access to their animus means that you're wasting a huge number of points on a single spell. This is a very tricky tightrope to walk, as losing your rage source can easily mean that you've lost the game altogether. The expectation of committing your primary buff provider to melee where they are at the greatest risk of dying is something I think is ultimately a major negative aspect of playing trolls.

    The Solution

    I think that what needs to be done to fix this is that trolls as a faction need access to more damage buffs or ARM debuffs. Centralizing the troll battle plan around access to rage is limiting and creates an extra layer of weakness not present in other factions.

    It is fine if Trolls are the "STR Buffing" faction, but in order to be the STR Buffing faction, they need access to more than one STR buff.

    Just like Khador is the slow faction that has access to lots of speed buffs, or Cygnar is the fragile faction with lots of access to ARM buffs, there's nothing inherently wrong with being a faction that needs to buff strength to level the playing field. What is wrong is how limited the access to those strength buffs are, and where they are located.

    If privateer press brings back the old Pyre and Slag animi, opens trolls up to more damage buff spells on warcasters and maybe brings in a damage buff on a spellcasting unit, I think trolls will see a drastic improvement in the variety and efficacy of their play.

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    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    It's perhaps a minor quibble, but it does bear mentioning when you're comparing to models like the Juggernaut that Trollblood heavies generally make very good use of any STR buffs they can get their (big meaty) hands on because of volume of attacks. Even the humble Bomber has two good initials and Fury 4, which is a significant advantage over comparable shooting pieces cross-faction in a melee fight. PS16 on the Mauler seems sketch until you realise it makes potentially 3 initials (albeit one at lower strength) and has a whopping 5 fury to boost or start buying attacks into hard targets with. Meanwhile the Juggernaut, though that PS19 sure is a high number, makes at most 4 attacks with the axe without outside interference.

    I don't disagree with the overall premise that the Mauler being an assumed piece in a lot of troll lists (and therefore frustratingly hard to commit to piece trades which is its other purpose) is a problem design-wise, but it was such an otherwise well-made point that I figured it's worth giving it a bit more nuance.
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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    If privateer press brings back the old Pyre and Slag animi, opens trolls up to more damage buff spells on warcasters and maybe brings in a damage buff on a spellcasting unit, I think trolls will see a drastic improvement in the variety and efficacy of their play.
    Wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Losing our lights' real utility meant they were delegated to never being taken. Most of the time, we were taking our lights for their animi. Now we never see them. Sure, I get the "redundant buffs", but going to self only animi was probably the biggest mistake on the Trollbloods changes to mk3.

  4. #4

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    That's valid, and I probably should have taken the time to address it myself. In my experience Fury 5 doesn't do quite as much as a higher base P+S since I need to burn the extra fury buying/boosting to do the same damage. To me it's a net zero, at best, since I'm still paying to put rage on the bomber/mauler anyway.

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    Destroyer of Worlds joedj's Avatar
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    Make animi of Battlegroup warbeasts persistent on the warlock's spell card, even when a BG warbeast is destroyed. That solves the loss of Rage with commitment of the DTM to early combat.

    Alternately, lose a spell on a warcaster' spell card if that spell is on a warjack when it is destroyed. Just kidding! (Though when stated like this, the argument for persistent animi seems not unreasonable.)

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    Destroyer of Worlds joedj's Avatar
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    Imagine if instead of Rage being 'target FF warbeast', it was 'self'. And the Pyre's animus was the opposite.
    Would the Pyre trade with the Mauler in frequency in BGs? Probably, alas (+2 only).
    But that would allow more, future warlocks/Beast Caller solo to have STR or damage buff spells/abilities.

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    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    That's valid, and I probably should have taken the time to address it myself. In my experience Fury 5 doesn't do quite as much as a higher base P+S since I need to burn the extra fury buying/boosting to do the same damage. To me it's a net zero, at best, since I'm still paying to put rage on the bomber/mauler anyway.
    Without Rage on the Mauler the Juggernaut does more damage to a hard target, but with Rage the Mauler eats it up and spits it out. It's not even particularily close. The additional 2 attacks from Fury 5 make an enormous difference, but even if the Mauler self-casts it to effectively be Fury 3 for fighting it ends up doing more damage unless the Juggernaut's MAT7 causes it to hit a swing the Mauler would have missed. Casting Rage is certainly a resource investment, but so is loading up a Juggernaut in a faction with lots of FOC6 and no focus support.

    Like you said, it does leave Trollbloods in a weird spot where Rage is pretty much expected to exist in your army unless you commit to a shooting-heavy battlegroup or Mulg/Rok as your melee pieces. The upside is that a Mauler/Bomber battlegroup means your shooting warbeast will be, on demand for as long as the Mauler is alive, considerably more dangerous than comparable beasts and 'jacks elsewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    That's valid, and I probably should have taken the time to address it myself. In my experience Fury 5 doesn't do quite as much as a higher base P+S since I need to burn the extra fury buying/boosting to do the same damage. To me it's a net zero, at best, since I'm still paying to put rage on the bomber/mauler anyway.
    In a lot of case, an unbuffed mauler can do comparable damage to a juggernaut. The two problems are :
    * it generate 5 fury doing so. There are workaround that problem, but it's more than half what you leech nonetheless. It's easier to run two juggernauts at max efficiency than two maulers.
    * an unbuffed mauler do more damage on targets that a juggernaut would still pretty much annihilate ; while the targets where the Juggernaut is better are actually hard to remove regardless of the mean.

    I think a comparison with Skorne is warranted, since dire trolls and titans have the same strength, and both use a buffing mechanism to hit way above their weight classes. The Skorne one is in practice a lot less problematic because it can stay well away from troubles, unlike a 15 points beast that have to go hand to hand with your opponents to earn its point. There's also the fact that Enrage, unlike Fury, don't actually consume fury on your caster. Skorne also have beasts who hit legitimaly hard before any buff, like the Aradus Soldier.

    I do agree with your conclusion that having the light beast not self, to diversify the mean by which you can increase troll damage output. I would also add that Rage is likely too much of a swing ; I think that if it dropped the warbeast restriction and only gave +2 strength, while all troll beast gain 1 strength, things would go a lot smoother.

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    I don't think more strength buffs and keeping rage is viable. let's say they gave you fury, suddenly we have to deal with a POW 24 Mulg turn after turn. POW26 sea king, all the time. You pay a tax for having rage. Just as circle pay theirs for having primal.

    I think the majority of your issues with it would be resolved with a gorax equivalent light with rage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glavas View Post
    I don't think more strength buffs and keeping rage is viable. let's say they gave you fury, suddenly we have to deal with a POW 24 Mulg turn after turn. POW26 sea king, all the time. You pay a tax for having rage. Just as circle pay theirs for having primal.
    In context, it's clear that he mean strength buff who can't be cumulated with Rage. Aka other animus.

    Note that Ragnor did not set the world in fire with his +2 strength boost.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Big Fat Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glavas View Post
    I don't think more strength buffs and keeping rage is viable. let's say they gave you fury, suddenly we have to deal with a POW 24 Mulg turn after turn. POW26 sea king, all the time. You pay a tax for having rage. Just as circle pay theirs for having primal.

    I think the majority of your issues with it would be resolved with a gorax equivalent light with rage.
    That's why it has to be animi.

    I never did figure out why the Slag had his animus removed. We do need it back. We all know this. If nothing else, it would help to have another option. The Slag himself could function as a mini-Mauler vs jacks then, which would help us piece trade against them while we do struggle with that a bit now. Something that could go on Skaldi or the warlock would be helpful, and I think paying the same 2 Fury for 50% less effect balances that out. It's not like we can spam it on all the Fenns at the rate of 2 Fury a pop.

    I would also change the Pyre Troll animus to buff ranged damage instead yet still be self only. If my math is right, this doesn't actually break Grissel 2 let alone Jarl. I do think it would give the Pyre more of a niche, though.
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  12. #12
    Destroyer of Worlds Big Fat Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohlmann View Post
    In context, it's clear that he mean strength buff who can't be cumulated with Rage. Aka other animus.

    Note that Ragnor did not set the world in fire with his +2 strength boost.
    He isn't exactly broken, but he is tied with Tanith for the best caster in that cycle, and he is certainly the one from the new battle boxes who made the biggest splash in the tournament meta.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohlmann View Post
    In context, it's clear that he mean strength buff who can't be cumulated with Rage. Aka other animus.

    Note that Ragnor did not set the world in fire with his +2 strength boost.
    Sorry, he stated animii, spells or spell caster unit's ability at the bottom which is what i was referencing. I think the solution is as easy as giving you rage on a light. I think anything else is pushing the realms of balance, especially if it is a spellcaster unit, because we don't need that plus ragnor to stack haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glavas View Post
    Sorry, he stated animii, spells or spell caster unit's ability at the bottom which is what i was referencing. I think the solution is as easy as giving you rage on a light. I think anything else is pushing the realms of balance, especially if it is a spellcaster unit, because we don't need that plus ragnor to stack haha.
    I did say animii, spells and units and I stand by that. You can only have one animii on a warbeast at a time, so it natively doesn't stack with rage. Similarly, you can only have one upkeep on a model at a time, preventing additional upkeep spells from stacking with each other. The balance is already built into the rules set.

    What this works out to in practice is that you can generally have up to three "fixers" in a combat: 1 animus, 1 upkeep buff, and 1 upkeep debuff. Trolls also have the stone scribe elder, but that's a fairly unusual situation.

    If trolls are the "STR buffing faction" (Hulk SMASH!), then I think they need a wider access to STR buffs to offset their need to buff STR in order to trade effectively.

    In terms of concrete examples, I offer Ragnor (who is great, but in no way broken) and Rask (who is also great, and in no way broken). Both can put damage upkeeps on beasts that also have access to rage.

    New (or the return of old) animii damage buffs won't stack with rage natively and so are "safe." New damage buff upkeeps won't stack with each other and are therefore also safe. New ARM debuff upkeeps won't necessarily stack with damage buff upkeeps due to spell list limitations, and that's a good thing. I'm not saying we should give Grim2 fury (the spell), but I do think that Trolls getting a warcaster with fury (the spell) isn't going to break anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    I did say animii, spells and units and I stand by that. You can only have one animii on a warbeast at a time, so it natively doesn't stack with rage. Similarly, you can only have one upkeep on a model at a time, preventing additional upkeep spells from stacking with each other. The balance is already built into the rules set.

    What this works out to in practice is that you can generally have up to three "fixers" in a combat: 1 animus, 1 upkeep buff, and 1 upkeep debuff. Trolls also have the stone scribe elder, but that's a fairly unusual situation.

    If trolls are the "STR buffing faction" (Hulk SMASH!), then I think they need a wider access to STR buffs to offset their need to buff STR in order to trade effectively.

    In terms of concrete examples, I offer Ragnor (who is great, but in no way broken) and Rask (who is also great, and in no way broken). Both can put damage upkeeps on beasts that also have access to rage.

    New (or the return of old) animii damage buffs won't stack with rage natively and so are "safe." New damage buff upkeeps won't stack with each other and are therefore also safe. New ARM debuff upkeeps won't necessarily stack with damage buff upkeeps due to spell list limitations, and that's a good thing. I'm not saying we should give Grim2 fury (the spell), but I do think that Trolls getting a warcaster with fury (the spell) isn't going to break anything.
    I have to lodge a disagreement here. I have 3 troll players in my shop and have not seen one fail to trade what he wanted because he lacked damage. More STR just becomes more overkill and therefore wasted resources, like focus hanging on a jack with no target.

    If trolls are having that much trouble because of their faction (a state of which I'm unconvinced), then slightly cheaper models is the best solution to allow you to get a bit more out on the table.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    I did say animii, spells and units and I stand by that. You can only have one animii on a warbeast at a time, so it natively doesn't stack with rage. Similarly, you can only have one upkeep on a model at a time, preventing additional upkeep spells from stacking with each other. The balance is already built into the rules set.

    What this works out to in practice is that you can generally have up to three "fixers" in a combat: 1 animus, 1 upkeep buff, and 1 upkeep debuff. Trolls also have the stone scribe elder, but that's a fairly unusual situation.

    If trolls are the "STR buffing faction" (Hulk SMASH!), then I think they need a wider access to STR buffs to offset their need to buff STR in order to trade effectively.

    In terms of concrete examples, I offer Ragnor (who is great, but in no way broken) and Rask (who is also great, and in no way broken). Both can put damage upkeeps on beasts that also have access to rage.

    New (or the return of old) animii damage buffs won't stack with rage natively and so are "safe." New damage buff upkeeps won't stack with each other and are therefore also safe. New ARM debuff upkeeps won't necessarily stack with damage buff upkeeps due to spell list limitations, and that's a good thing. I'm not saying we should give Grim2 fury (the spell), but I do think that Trolls getting a warcaster with fury (the spell) isn't going to break anything.
    So let's say you get a way to debuff ( kiss, dark shroud) on a solo/unit.

    With ragnor, mulg can be at effective pow 26 all the time. A mauler would be at 24 basically all the time. You would run nothing but maulers because they're great at their point cost.

    I agree that you need more ways to get str bonuses. I severely disagree with them stacking with anything else. You already get reliably higher str than any other hordes faction. Rask can beat you out by a point. Fully buffed ghetorix in circle can beat you out with some casters but has to throw an activation away. I don't think legion get anywhere high enough. Skorne can tie with you.

    The best suggestion so far IMO was getting the +2 from the pyre troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glavas View Post
    So let's say you get a way to debuff ( kiss, dark shroud) on a solo/unit.

    With ragnor, mulg can be at effective pow 26 all the time. A mauler would be at 24 basically all the time. You would run nothing but maulers because they're great at their point cost.

    I agree that you need more ways to get str bonuses. I severely disagree with them stacking with anything else. You already get reliably higher str than any other hordes faction. Rask can beat you out by a point. Fully buffed ghetorix in circle can beat you out with some casters but has to throw an activation away. I don't think legion get anywhere high enough. Skorne can tie with you.

    The best suggestion so far IMO was getting the +2 from the pyre troll.
    You're talking about rage + Stone + Ragnor + whatever the solo is. That's a minimum 21 points spent (plus the cost of the undecided solo, probably 5+) for P+S 24 and requires a specific caster to pull off.

    I'm not advocating for all the damage buffs, and I'm making a point to point out the necessity of locking some of these potential combinations out through keeping them as animii and upkeeps. It's kind of difficult to put Pulverizer on Mulg if you're not using ragnor, just like you can't stack rage and flaming fists.

    To your point about only using maulers because they'd be P+S 24 and cheap at that, an Axer is 2/3 the cost and could hit P+S 20 under the same conditions. Being able to field 2 functional Axers for slightly less P+S might be a better choice in terms of fury action economy.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Even if we had choices in how to bring the damage buff beyond MK or Mauler, the fundamental problem is still that you're stuck buffing everything before you can do damage, but you can't do that and fuel the stone, and actually cast your spells, and camp all at the same time especially in a faction defined by having low fury stats.

    The whole faction is designed around everything having rage available, and everything having the stone buff available and also having casters that actually do something else. But you generally can't do all that stuff at once. That leaves us balanced like MK2 trenchers: paying for every ability and only using a few of them. The whole equation should be rebalanced more like MK3 trenchers where the fact that you have to make tradeoffs actually gets reflected in the price point. But that kind of balance was reserved for warmachine factions as far as I can tell.

    Kind of like how all the mauler/juggernaut comparisons hinge on ignoring mat7 vs 6 and ignoring that the mauler costs more, and has lower armor (and better speed). And, instead of focus on a self buffing mauler, we have to for some reason compare a mauler with an outside buff from the warlock against an unbuffed juggernaut. If we put fury on the juggernaut suddenly things don't look so comparable again.

    The mauler is the best warbeast in the game quite possibly. But he's still a terrible warjack. Having access to rage isn't a benefit when it's assumed to be free, applied to all your warbeasts all the time, and got you stuck with PS16 heavies.

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    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    Kind of like how all the mauler/juggernaut comparisons hinge on ignoring mat7 vs 6 and ignoring that the mauler costs more, and has lower armor (and better speed). And, instead of focus on a self buffing mauler, we have to for some reason compare a mauler with an outside buff from the warlock against an unbuffed juggernaut. If we put fury on the juggernaut suddenly things don't look so comparable again.
    Sort of. The same investment you make to cast Rage on the Mauler the Khador player is making to actually fuel his Juggernaut. It costs two focus to get a Juggernaut up to big, heavy-killing speed, whereas the 'camp less or maybe frenzies happen' cost of forcing warbeasts is harder to quantify and vanishes entirely if your opponent kills the Mauler as you're piece trading. Being a warbeast is still a benefit, though many warbeasts are currently overcosted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    The mauler is the best warbeast in the game quite possibly. But he's still a terrible warjack. Having access to rage isn't a benefit when it's assumed to be free, applied to all your warbeasts all the time, and got you stuck with PS16 heavies.
    Terrible is very strong language. In an anti-ARM list I would be delighted to run a 15-point heavy warjack with the kind of 'go nova' capacity that the Mauler has. Its upper damage ceiling is really high.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    You're talking about rage + Stone + Ragnor + whatever the solo is. That's a minimum 21 points spent (plus the cost of the undecided solo, probably 5+) for P+S 24 and requires a specific caster to pull off.

    I'm not advocating for all the damage buffs, and I'm making a point to point out the necessity of locking some of these potential combinations out through keeping them as animii and upkeeps. It's kind of difficult to put Pulverizer on Mulg if you're not using ragnor, just like you can't stack rage and flaming fists.

    To your point about only using maulers because they'd be P+S 24 and cheap at that, an Axer is 2/3 the cost and could hit P+S 20 under the same conditions. Being able to field 2 functional Axers for slightly less P+S might be a better choice in terms of fury action economy.
    is PS 24....not enough? I'm asking, really. What needs you to go higher than that, that you couldn't simply use more of your 7 ATTACKS on?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    What I mind is that there is really only one solution to buffing troll warbeast's melee damage in faction. Designing models with the expectation that they will include rage instead of include melee damage buffs is what I see as the actual "rage problem."
    I think this particular problem is something all factions face. Cygnar for instance only has one non Warcaster solution to buffing Arm the Journeyman. Junior requires a minimum 8 point jack which brings the cost to Arm buff a minimum of 12 points. With respect to damage buffs Cygnar doesn't have many solutions on buffing damage beyond feats, a few spells, or 12 point merc options like A&H. By having one key model to perform a function it makes it easier for the opposing team to dismantle your army and thus you have to keep key pieces well protected. While I'm not a game designer I can only think that such a situation has been noticed and because it hasn't been addressed it's there by design.

    With the DT Mauler his problem is that he's a lynchpin model that wants to be near the front. So do you risk your animus for offensive capability or have it play a secondary role until later in the game. When I play him he's always in the 2nd line handing out Rage to other Beasts until they're used up and then he's a late game anchor.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarskeMannen View Post
    Sort of. The same investment you make to cast Rage on the Mauler the Khador player is making to actually fuel his Juggernaut. It costs two focus to get a Juggernaut up to big, heavy-killing speed, whereas the 'camp less or maybe frenzies happen' cost of forcing warbeasts is harder to quantify and vanishes entirely if your opponent kills the Mauler as you're piece trading. Being a warbeast is still a benefit, though many warbeasts are currently overcosted.
    Fury is easier to spend, sure, but it doesn't justify comparing allocation to casting buffs. We agree that being a warbeast is an upside and that it is currently overpriced as a benefit in many situations.



    Quote Originally Posted by BarskeMannen View Post
    Terrible is very strong language. In an anti-ARM list I would be delighted to run a 15-point heavy warjack with the kind of 'go nova' capacity that the Mauler has. Its upper damage ceiling is really high.
    You are absolutely right. For the thing the Mauler is best at, he's amazing at it and would see play as a warjack doing that thing. But for everything else, he suffers from being a typical over costed, under statted beast.
    Last edited by Po the Barbarian; 01-09-2017 at 12:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    is PS 24....not enough? I'm asking, really. What needs you to go higher than that, that you couldn't simply use more of your 7 ATTACKS on?
    Did you only read one of those three paragraphs? Please don't turn me into a strawman. I appreciate the counter argument you're bringing, but I can't debate with you if I can't communicate with you.

    Is there some other way I can make my argument? My point is that I think if there were alternate sources of damage buffing you would see less maulers, or at least more other warbeast.

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    Id assume PP plans to address this thru #designspace and continue to build Troll casters like Horgle2 as opposed to changing Trolls thru errata. Its sad about the Slag though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Did you only read one of those three paragraphs? Please don't turn me into a strawman. I appreciate the counter argument you're bringing, but I can't debate with you if I can't communicate with you.

    Is there some other way I can make my argument? My point is that I think if there were alternate sources of damage buffing you would see less maulers, or at least more other warbeast.
    The main thing I'm trying to point out is that you can't balance your faction as if ragnor doesn't exist. If you wanna get to ragnor levels of POW with other casters your either give them spells that increase damage which takes definition away from ragnor or you give them another means which ragnor will turn up to 11.

    Do you think circle deserves to have more str buffs that aren't primal? Because we're in the same boat except our buff takes two activation from our beasts and only works on half of them.

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    But then, the circle is supposed to be fast and relatively pillow fisted compared to the trolls.

    (also, primal is on two beasts, not just one)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glavas View Post
    The main thing I'm trying to point out is that you can't balance your faction as if ragnor doesn't exist. If you wanna get to ragnor levels of POW with other casters your either give them spells that increase damage which takes definition away from ragnor or you give them another means which ragnor will turn up to 11.

    Do you think circle deserves to have more str buffs that aren't primal? Because we're in the same boat except our buff takes two activation from our beasts and only works on half of them.
    Adding new warlocks with damage buffs or ARM debuffs takes nothing away from Ragnor, since he already isn't the only troll warcaster with a damage fixer, just the only one with a STR buff. There are plenty of spells that could be used by troll warlocks without stepping on Ragnor's toes because there is so much more to the design of a warlock than one single spell.

    Circle does have access to more STR buffs than primal. Stone Skin on Baldur1 for example. And no, I don't think it'd be entirely unreasonable for them to get a second STR buffing animus somewhere along the line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohlmann View Post
    But then, the circle is supposed to be fast and relatively pillow fisted compared to the trolls.

    (also, primal is on two beasts, not just one)
    We're supposed to be fast glass cannons. Not pillow fisted.

    I did mention trolls should get rage on a light. We still face commitment issues on our 18 point heavy. If you take the light you're playing 7 points down essentially.

  29. #29
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Thing is circle has non-character heavies that are natively over ps16 because warp wolves can warp for strength. The lack of hitting power is not nearly as apparent when playing circle as it is when playing trolls despite rage having fewer downsides and thus being less of a decision to cast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glavas View Post
    We're supposed to be fast glass cannons. Not pillow fisted.

    I did mention trolls should get rage on a light. We still face commitment issues on our 18 point heavy. If you take the light you're playing 7 points down essentially.
    I don't play circle (yet), but isn't the gorax, when taken, simply considered a known support tax, much like the often seen choir/hierophant/vassal/wracks grouping?
    Choir Kills: 5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glavas View Post
    We're supposed to be fast glass cannons. Not pillow fisted.

    I did mention trolls should get rage on a light. We still face commitment issues on our 18 point heavy. If you take the light you're playing 7 points down essentially.
    Glass cannons is Everblight. Circle Orboros don't hit terribly hard overall, by design.

    Having a 7 point Gorax for transfert and minor beatdown is a good alternative to commiting a 18 point heavy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    Thing is circle has non-character heavies that are natively over ps16 because warp wolves can warp for strength. The lack of hitting power is not nearly as apparent when playing circle as it is when playing trolls despite rage having fewer downsides and thus being less of a decision to cast.
    They also cost 18 and 19 points, and the Feral only barely exceeds that standard.

    Personally, I think the lack of hitting power has far less to do with Rage as a faction problem, and more to do with Privateer designing things fluffily. After all, the thing that most heavies topping out at 16-17 P+S have in common is lack of manufactured weapons. Coincidentally, dire trolls have consistently been portrayed as not wielding weapons in melee combat (and requiring a great deal of training to figure out how to use them at range). So for Privateer, having models at P+S 16 or so is a natural offshoot of the fact that they're fighting with their fists, and Rage is intended to give them a way to get up to those higher levels of P+S.
    Returning to the game after a long hiatus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohlmann View Post
    Glass cannons is Everblight. Circle Orboros don't hit terribly hard overall, by design.

    Having a 7 point Gorax for transfert and minor beatdown is a good alternative to commiting a 18 point heavy.
    Circle hit harder than angelli neraphs and seraphs. Circle hit as hard as the carnivean chassis. Def/arm/boxes between their non carnivean chassis heavies and warpwolves are pretty close.

    The carnivean chassis and typhon are tankier than anything in the circle living stable.

  34. #34

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    Two fixes in one. Change the Slag animus to something like Corrosive touch: this models melee attacks cause -2 ARM on hit and does not stack with itself
    Obviously using better wording but it would give us another universal damage buff while changing the worst animus in the game to be both useful and flavorful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnustheJust View Post
    Khador is fine. It is the player base that needs the errata...
    Quote Originally Posted by Havock View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karang029 View Post
    Two fixes in one. Change the Slag animus to something like Corrosive touch: this models melee attacks cause -2 ARM on hit and does not stack with itself
    Obviously using better wording but it would give us another universal damage buff while changing the worst animus in the game to be both useful and flavorful.
    Maybe gives immunity: corrosion and dark shroud? Idk, that's probably a bit of an odd combination.

  36. #36

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    I worded it in a way to require combat and also be more fluffy to the model at hand and in terms of the factoo. Cause trolls like to hit things.

    That said dark shroud as a Night Troll ability though mmmm
    Last edited by Karang029; 01-10-2017 at 09:46 AM.
    Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. It can always surpass expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnustheJust View Post
    Khador is fine. It is the player base that needs the errata...
    Quote Originally Posted by Havock View Post
    I'd rather win a straight game than scoop up a cheap win because someone's brain just decided that 1+1=banana

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karang029 View Post
    I worded it in a way to require combat and also be more fluffy to the model at hand and in terms of the factoo. Cause trolls like to hit things.

    That said dark shroud as a Night Troll ability though mmmm
    I agree, that would be pretty sweet.

  38. #38
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    stacks with rage though and becomes pretty crazy pretty quickly.

    Not that trolls actually doing a thing well would be a problem for me, but, I don't see it happening.

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    Fair point. There could possibly be a way to make something similar work, but it'd likely be fiddly as hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joedj View Post
    Make animi of Battlegroup warbeasts persistent on the warlock's spell card, even when a BG warbeast is destroyed. That solves the loss of Rage with commitment of the DTM to early combat.

    Alternately, lose a spell on a warcaster' spell card if that spell is on a warjack when it is destroyed. Just kidding! (Though when stated like this, the argument for persistent animi seems not unreasonable.)
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