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  1. #41
    Destroyer of Worlds Big Fat Troll's Avatar
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    At one point I floated the idea of changing Spirit Bond so that instead of leeching 1 Fury from each dead beast you would keep the animus of one dead beast. If you had multiple dead beasts you would have to choose which one to place in Spirit Bond for the turn during your maintenance phase. Maybe even make it so that has to be a dead beast and not RFP, but that's easy for us to say as Snacking and the Band of Heroes "takedown" are two readily available ways to RFP enemy beasts.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Adding new warlocks with damage buffs or ARM debuffs takes nothing away from Ragnor, since he already isn't the only troll warcaster with a damage fixer, just the only one with a STR buff. There are plenty of spells that could be used by troll warlocks without stepping on Ragnor's toes because there is so much more to the design of a warlock than one single spell.

    Circle does have access to more STR buffs than primal. Stone Skin on Baldur1 for example. And no, I don't think it'd be entirely unreasonable for them to get a second STR buffing animus somewhere along the line.
    If everyone buffs strength, your beasts will be made inheritently weaker to balance the faction. You are by no means pillow fisted.

    I was asking specifically in regards to non warlock examples. Circle have a single animus that works on half our beasts and forces them to frenzy.

    We have baldur1, kaya2, tanith with dark shroud. Arguably una with hand of fate.

    I'm all for you receiving another str animus or dmg boosting animus. What I'm very specifically trying to point out is that giving you something akin to cephalyx agitators or beast handlers is out of the realms of realism as it will increase the power of all your beasts significantly.

    To clarify;

    All for you getting cheaper access to damaging buff animii.

    All against trolls being able to easily stack damage buffs on top of rage.

    Out of curiosity would a 7 point light with primal make you feel better?

  3. #43

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    If it was the night Troll, people might suddenly use it ^^ Although I doubt that Trolls really want primal on their beasts (R÷k has primal as animus and nobody uses it). Rage is much better. What I read in Circle so far is that people use the Gorax as a Primal bot only, when they really cannot afford the Feral Warpwolf, so in most cases they take the wolf instead. So the Trolls would stick with the Mauler in many cases too. But I'd be nice to have the cheaper option, if it is as back-up for the Mauler (or one light that helps you by not having your caster cast the animus).
    A bit offtopic: I never understood why it's fine for Circle to primal everything (I know you'd say because they have no choice). Cheap lights are one thing to "throw away", but the Wolves are quite expensive. Also: The Warpwolves can all warp strengh, so the stalker hits at P+S 18 without any support! This is somewhat comparable to Mulg and I think the reason why people like to play both a lot. The Weapon makes the difference (also for Warjacks). In the end both Circle and Trolls come down to: P+S ~15-16+ Animus Buff + possible other Buff (Taniths Dark Shroud, Ragnors Buff, Maybe Stone Strengh if in range). Trolls don't Frenzy but Circle gets the Alpha (As far as I understand things at this point).
    Back to topic: I think Primal on the Night Troll would be amazing. A cheap Heavy option liek the Satyr would be great (also with both you could build a more user freindly Battle Boxes for Trolls . And I think a non-character Warbeast with a reach weapon would be amazing. Its whishlisting, but right now people play around this anyways by using Mulg and Mauler(s) (and Krielstone for the record = 40+ points in the same stuff almost always); so it would mainly be beneficial for more divergence in list building.
    Last edited by Snoozer; 01-11-2017 at 01:49 AM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoozer View Post
    If it was the night Troll, people might suddenly use it ^^ Although I doubt that Trolls really want primal on their beasts (R÷k has primal as animus and nobody uses it). Rage is much better. What I read in Circle so far is that people use the Gorax as a Primal bot only, when they really cannot afford the Feral Warpwolf, so in most cases they take the wolf instead. So the Trolls would stick with the Mauler in many cases too. But I'd be nice to have the cheaper option, if it is as back-up for the Mauler (or one light that helps you by not having your caster cast the animus).
    A bit offtopic: I never understood why it's fine for Circle to primal everything (I know you'd say because they have no choice). Cheap lights are one thing to "throw away", but the Wolves are quite expensive. Also: The Warpwolves can all warp strengh, so the stalker hits at P+S 18 without any support! This is somewhat comparable to Mulg and I think the reason why people like to play both a lot. The Weapon makes the difference (also for Warjacks). In the end both Circle and Trolls come down to: P+S ~15-16+ Animus Buff + possible other Buff (Taniths Dark Shroud, Ragnors Buff, Maybe Stone Strengh if in range). Trolls don't Frenzy but Circle gets the Alpha (As far as I understand things at this point).
    Back to topic: I think Primal on the Night Troll would be amazing. A cheap Heavy option liek the Satyr would be great (also with both you could build a more user freindly Battle Boxes for Trolls . And I think a non-character Warbeast with a reach weapon would be amazing. Its whishlisting, but right now people play around this anyways by using Mulg and Mauler(s) (and Krielstone for the record = 40+ points in the same stuff almost always); so it would mainly be beneficial for more divergence in list building.
    The issue with the feral isn't not affording it, it's the same issue you guys have with the mauler haha. He's 18 points, and will die as soon as he's committed ( Warp STR makes him arm 16 ) and with him goes your primal. So in a lot of lists you either have to protect him like some holy grail, or hold him to the last second, much like OP was describing.

    I don't think you guys should be forced to use primal. I know I toyed with the idea but it's not a great attrition type thing. I honestly just think you could have irrelevant light beast A have an animus that gives target warbeast within 6" +2 to damage rolls for 2 fury.

  5. #45
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Only if Fire and Slag keeps their buff, or at least only change their buff to be only targets warbeasts then it will be more flexible. Then although you need to take either a Dire Troll Mauler, a Fire Troll or a Slag Troll, but still it is better than there is no choice other than take a Dire Troll Mauler in 99% of the lists. A 15 point model is too costy to be a mandatory choice.

    Trollbloods melee warbeasts are designed to be buffed their melee damage by an animus. But it means that the others are simply discarded, and currently Trollbloods have Rage and Primal - so if you don't want to drop a heavy, Rage is effectively the only option.


    Well, a Dire Troll Mauler can have Rush - engage the enemy then pop Rage. It can still hit hard as a beatstick heavy warjack. But the others needs a buff to be punching the enemy in melee.

    Anyway it is weird. The reliance of the infantry seems dropped, but beasts are still short on the support too. Then what to do?
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  6. #46

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    I'm very new and running into the problem of "I want to keep my Mauler alive to have Rage available, but I want to get him into combat to get work done". Its super frustrating to play a 35pt game and if my Mauler dies, my other beasts don't have the hitting power to take out the rest of my opponents beasts with any efficiency.

    I'm not really sure what the solution is, but its not a fun decision to make when facing opponents with multiple unbuffed heavies that hit harder than all my beasts do.

  7. #47
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyroid View Post
    I'm very new and running into the problem of "I want to keep my Mauler alive to have Rage available, but I want to get him into combat to get work done". Its super frustrating to play a 35pt game and if my Mauler dies, my other beasts don't have the hitting power to take out the rest of my opponents beasts with any efficiency.

    I'm not really sure what the solution is, but its not a fun decision to make when facing opponents with multiple unbuffed heavies that hit harder than all my beasts do.
    That's also one of the bad side effect as well. Eventually you have the situation that must throw a Mauler, but it is also a buffer as well.
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  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glavas View Post
    If everyone buffs strength, your beasts will be made inheritently weaker to balance the faction. You are by no means pillow fisted.

    I was asking specifically in regards to non warlock examples. Circle have a single animus that works on half our beasts and forces them to frenzy.

    We have baldur1, kaya2, tanith with dark shroud. Arguably una with hand of fate.

    I'm all for you receiving another str animus or dmg boosting animus. What I'm very specifically trying to point out is that giving you something akin to cephalyx agitators or beast handlers is out of the realms of realism as it will increase the power of all your beasts significantly.

    To clarify;

    All for you getting cheaper access to damaging buff animii.

    All against trolls being able to easily stack damage buffs on top of rage.

    Out of curiosity would a 7 point light with primal make you feel better?
    Given that Ragnor, Grissel and Grimm's effective +2 STR stacks with rage, and they're only good (not stellar) casters, and Rask's +3 on top of Rage, I think I'll continue to disagree that more troll warlocks with damage buffing options is unreasonably powerful.

    However, I do now see your point about the issue that Rage + Upkeep + Other buff could cause. So I'll withdraw that idea until I can look at it further.

  9. #49
    Destroyer of Worlds Tarkand's Avatar
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    It really feels like they should have made 'Mulg' into a non-character warbeast.

    Call it an 'elder dire troll', drop his mat to 6 make his club non-magical and change his animus to something a bit less flavorful - heck, or let it stay the same, nobody really use it anyway and maybe drop him 2pts. If you're worried that this may result in armies that are too tanky (Arm21 - 34 box everywhere!) bring his defensive stats back in line with the other dires (12/18 30).

    Great opportunity to give us a new plastic sculpt too!

    He's no longer the monster he used to be, which make the character tag a bit odd, but he's still pretty well costed for his output. Having access to a pow18 model with reach and relentless charge and being able to field several of those (not unlike what circle does with their wolves) would go a long way toward making the rush/rage eternal dilema less of one.

    And you can than make 'the real mulg' into a 24pts monstrocity.

    The problem tho, is that such a model would now be way to close to what Mulg is currently is and would most likely make the old man redundant. So it's not going to happen.
    Last edited by Tarkand; 01-11-2017 at 03:01 PM.

  10. #50

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    I think trolls do suffer a little from lack of reach heavies, but I wouldn't call it a major issue.

  11. #51
    Annihilator nIKon's Avatar
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    Glavas, been trying to reach you about Secret Santa 2016. Check your inbox please!

    Sorry to hijack the thread, my apologies.

    J--

    Quote Originally Posted by Glavas View Post
    I don't think more strength buffs and keeping rage is viable. let's say they gave you fury, suddenly we have to deal with a POW 24 Mulg turn after turn. POW26 sea king, all the time. You pay a tax for having rage. Just as circle pay theirs for having primal.

    I think the majority of your issues with it would be resolved with a gorax equivalent light with rage.

  12. #52
    Destroyer of Worlds joedj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glavas View Post
    Out of curiosity would a 7 point light with primal make you feel better?
    Absolutely! Imagine if the Night Troll had Primal and Rok had Attractor...
    Or how about a 7-8 point light with +2 damage animus, like the MK2 Pyre/Slag.

    Trollblood list building, in general, seems to be stagnating with Mauler, Bomber, and ?. Something to buff our lights, specifically, to competence is needed. And I don't want an Una2 solution.

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  13. #53
    Destroyer of Worlds Trollock's Avatar
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    I think Primal is a very bad animus. You can only use it if you are going to absolutely cripple the entire opposing army. Using it to kill a heavy is not advisable, because then the opponent gets a turn where they can ignore your beast that went in and do other things by just feeding it a low point model. They can kill something else on the first turn, and then go back to kill the primaled beast a turn after. It makes our beasts punch harder, but not so much harder that they actually trade up. A slag troll can probably kill a jack if primaled, but they cost roughly the same points. A Night troll would not kill a heavy if primaled, so you would have to send in 2, and then you have committed an equal amount of points again, plus 4 fury to cast Primal twice.

    The only time where it could be used effectively imo is when you do it on an Axer who can then kill a DEF 14 heavy who usually kills more than 10 points. Then you could trade up.


    PS. Switching animus between night troll and R÷k still sounds amazing though

  14. #54
    Destroyer of Worlds joedj's Avatar
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    I play Circle also. Primal is rarely a bad animus when timed correctly (except perhaps used on a Garg on a failed assassination ). It allows me to DESTROY, especially higher DEF heavy modelS. If my opponent chooses to ignore my warbeast on their subsequent turn because of the auto-Frenzy, that's a win for me, because it has effectively placed a 'Don't worry about this' sign on that warbeast. Which non-threatening warbeast, if I've protected my Warlock properly, will literally bite the opponent in the rear on the next, next turn. The cheaper the Primaled warbeast the better of course.

    In Trollbloods, cheap-ER Primal would be especially helpful for:
    Bouncer - hard to kill him on pre-Frenzy turn, doubly helpful for him since it is difficult for him to hit/damage anything [Primal-ed Counter Charging Bouncers, Borka2, from a cheap source of Primal].
    Winter - low MAT and damage both need help, and his self-animus ain't exactly highly used.
    Night - should be a grunt killer, can't hit 'em.
    Slag - Trading a Slag's next activation for almost any construct heavy, even if the Slag gets taken out, is still a decent trade. Also his animus, bah.
    Axer - Yep, he wants to Thresher all those DEF 13+ models.

    PS response: Attract 'em all in then Berserk, right?! Also, a Primal-having Night Troll WOULD be seen on the battlefields, especially with Long Leash. But baby-steps...

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  15. #55
    Destroyer of Worlds Big Fat Troll's Avatar
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    What does happen if you put Primal on a Night Troll, then force it to use its own animus after it is done attacking? Will it still frenzy the next turn? Primal is gone that way.
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  16. #56

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    Iirc, there's no way to avoid frenzying from primal.

  17. #57
    Destroyer of Worlds joedj's Avatar
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    Since the onset of Primal, that has always been the attempt. Over lay a second animus to drop the Primal Frenzy effect. It's always been ruled the Frenzy state is persistent regardless.
    Sadly, even if some opposing spell/ability removes all enemy spells and animi [I believe].

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  18. #58
    Destroyer of Worlds Big Fat Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joedj View Post
    Since the onset of Primal, that has always been the attempt. Over lay a second animus to drop the Primal Frenzy effect. It's always been ruled the Frenzy state is persistent regardless.
    Sadly, even if some opposing spell/ability removes all enemy spells and animi [I believe].
    Okay. That's what I thought and that makes sense.
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  19. #59

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    Also I personally find the notion we would use Fury specifically on our warbeasts hilarious. Itd be an afterthought for me since it's be going on fenns, Warders, or KWs 8/10 times
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  20. #60
    Destroyer of Worlds razcalking's Avatar
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    If you think you hate your non-reach heavies now, wait until Brickhouse locks them in place.

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by razcalking View Post
    If you think you hate your non-reach heavies now, wait until Brickhouse locks them in place.
    I wouldn't worry about it. Apparently Cygnar players find a MAT 8, P+S 18, reach heavy with what is essentially an auto animus to be "garbage."

  22. #62
    Destroyer of Worlds joedj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karang029 View Post
    Also I personally find the notion we would use Fury specifically on our warbeasts hilarious. Itd be an afterthought for me since it's be going on fenns, Warders, or KWs 8/10 times
    Have to agree here. Any option for unit vs model based buff, example Fury, usually has way more synergy with the unit.
    Though I could see some utility on a cheap light warbeast as an alpha-sacrifice piece to lure in the opposing bigger hitters.

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  23. #63

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    I mean look at Khador. Does anyone really think a Pow 26 Conquest is breaking the game never even considered it. I don't really think a Pow24 Mulg is gonna be breaking down any new doors really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnustheJust View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karang029 View Post
    I mean look at Khador. Does anyone really think a Pow 26 Conquest is breaking the game never even considered it. I don't really think a Pow24 Mulg is gonna be breaking down any new doors really.
    Given that Rask can put a POW 23 (25 with hutchuk) wrastler out for the entire game, and he isn't the only one.

  25. #65
    Destroyer of Worlds razcalking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbis View Post
    I wouldn't worry about it. Apparently Cygnar players find a MAT 8, P+S 18, reach heavy with what is essentially an auto animus to be "garbage."
    I just bought into the Swans, and I don't Gonna run him with an Escort caster to make him SPD 6.

  26. #66
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    What makes the Stone Scribe Elder an unusual situation? It comes up pretty often on the counter-punch in my experiences against Trolls.
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  27. #67
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    Taking Power of Dhunia and auto-buffing then dumping fury into stones instead of casting 1st turn has been pretty fun so far just gotta pick buff targets early on and attempt to stick to the plan to make sure you don't have to re-cast too often.
    I'm thinking design space may open up options across the board we still don't have a Northkin Theme, and with the ever encroaching army of named(bonded) warbeasts I keep having to deal with from everyone else's factions I'm hoping we get some named lights that carry some damage buffing namely Madrak's Axer and Impaler friends might have some unique animi coming for us since they're pretty tight with Madrak in the lore and he's a party pleaser in my opinion so why not his beasty buddies.
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  28. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by joedj View Post
    ...

    Bouncer - hard to kill him on pre-Frenzy turn, doubly helpful for him since it is difficult for him to hit/damage anything [Primal-ed Counter Charging ...
    Love this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by joedj View Post
    ...

    Night - should be a grunt killer, can't hit 'em.
    ...
    If you can't hit anything with a MAT6 Night Troll ... how do you hit anything with a MAT6 Mauler? Curious... as I genuinely can't hit anything with either, yet if this was the Night Troll's only issue people wouldn't take Mauler for the same reason.

    With FURY 4 and 5 heavy beasts I'm not as worried about the damage as I am about hitting things in the first place. Rage is great and I don't feel multiple STR buffs on top would give us anything other factions don't already have (even though we're mean to be the big bad destoyer beast faction ...).

    I would be keen on MAT fixers, even from a Warlock if not some sort of support model. Rok is expensive as **** but I take him for Primal for the MAT boost with the STR being a nice cherry on top. Granted, I play into high DEF Cryx a lot so I am biased in my choices.

  29. #69
    Destroyer of Worlds joedj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cayterpius View Post
    If you can't hit anything with a MAT6 Night Troll ... how do you hit anything with a MAT6 Mauler? Curious... as I genuinely can't hit anything with either, yet if this was the Night Troll's only issue people wouldn't take Mauler for the same reason.

    I would be keen on MAT fixers, even from a Warlock if not some sort of support model. Rok is expensive as **** but I take him for Primal for the MAT boost with the STR being a nice cherry on top. Granted, I play into high DEF Cryx a lot so I am biased in my choices.
    MAT 6 Night Troll can hit a number of specific things, but the lowish DEF things it can hit are usually too ARM-ed up to care. No, a cheap source of Primal is so a relatively useless Light 'beast, example Night, can at least kill the Kayazy Eliminators, or the like, that it should be able to address, at the cost of a Frenzy. My MAT 6 DTMs miss LESS often against their specific targets, as they are usually heavy 'Jack hunting.

    MAT fixing we had in abundance when we could slam our own. Any 40mm grunt sacrificed in the right place could be a potential MAT fixer that opposing players had to consider as a potential threat. I'm still bummed that the baby got thrown out with the bath water when the issue of throwing friendlies was errata-cated. That change alone took us down a notch in the vote for TBs as THE power-attack-as-faction-identity. Perhaps we'll best be known as The Predictable Faction?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karang029 View Post
    I worded it in a way to require combat and also be more fluffy to the model at hand and in terms of the factoo. Cause trolls like to hit things.

    That said dark shroud as a Night Troll ability though mmmm
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Maybe gives immunity: corrosion and dark shroud? Idk, that's probably a bit of an odd combination.
    More likely and Rust on hit out of Slag. Maybe Dark Shroud from Night for 1 or DS + Ghostly for 2?

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  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cayterpius View Post
    If you can't hit anything with a MAT6 Night Troll ... how do you hit anything with a MAT6 Mauler? Curious... as I genuinely can't hit anything with either, yet if this was the Night Troll's only issue people wouldn't take Mauler for the same reason.
    Def 10 is a thing. Or even def 12 for that matter.

    The thing is, def 10 thing usually don't take POW 18 too well, but don't care too much about POW 12.

  32. #72
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Against DEF 13 unit, MAT 6 warjack and warbeasts are somewhat questionable. It is fine to have RAT 6, or the target is DEF 12 or less heavy warjack and warbeasts, though, but anti infantry melee jack/beast needs MAT 7 or Thresher like ability to reilably kil the infantry.
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  33. #73
    Destroyer of Worlds LunarSol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joedj View Post
    Make animi of Battlegroup warbeasts persistent on the warlock's spell card, even when a BG warbeast is destroyed. That solves the loss of Rage with commitment of the DTM to early combat.
    This would have been a huge problem in MK2, but, honestly the animi design strategy of MK3 makes this a fairly reasonable possibility.

  34. #74
    Destroyer of Worlds joedj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarSol View Post
    This would have been a huge problem in MK2, but, honestly the animi design strategy of MK3 makes this a fairly reasonable possibility.
    And with Warroom a seemingly easy presentation!

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  35. #75
    Destroyer of Worlds Big Fat Troll's Avatar
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    FWIW some of us have started playing Maulers in pairs if the BG is all melee anyway. I don't know why we didn't think of this before. The Mauler is a fantastic beast in its own right, so the redundancy doesn't really hurt us at all. Mulg, Mauler x2, EBDT x2 turns out to be a good BG for Doomie if you're in theme and playing on Hungerford's tables.
    "It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood."
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  36. #76
    Destroyer of Worlds joedj's Avatar
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    Within the first month of MK3, I was playing Ragnor w/ 2x DTM, 2x EBDT to fight off all the Khador 'jacks I was seeing in our venue. One of our best Khador players noted it was probably the best army option for power-to-power counterplay.
    But I prefer my armies to have in-army model diversity over redundancy whenever possible in my competitive pick-up games.

    Animus-persistence after 'beast destruction/removal, even if only one chosen per game [Rage] or by some other mechanic, would go a long way to balance WM/Hordes, and I believe increase the diversity of models in Hordes list.
    Imagine if the Skinner had the Bone Grinder's MK2 'cast the animus of destroyed WB once per turn rule'. Might that Skinner see more play?

    My avatar is a pic of me from my USAF days. Can you guess who my favorite Troll Warlock is?

  37. #77

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    The "problem" with only keeping one dead beast's animus is that, for trolls, it's almost always going to be rage. While I like that new rule as a potential solution, it doesn't actually reduce our dependency on the Rage animus, it just makes it an easier pill to swallow.

  38. #78
    Destroyer of Worlds Big Fat Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    The "problem" with only keeping one dead beast's animus is that, for trolls, it's almost always going to be rage. While I like that new rule as a potential solution, it doesn't actually reduce our dependency on the Rage animus, it just makes it an easier pill to swallow.
    But could conceivably be Rush or Far Strike.
    "It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood."
    -Karl Popper



  39. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Fat Troll View Post
    But could conceivably be Rush or Far Strike.
    Which makes me think of Trollock's "Rush is the worst animus in trolls" thread

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