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  1. #1
    Destroyer of Worlds Cyel's Avatar
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    Default No warrior meta - a myth ?

    I keep reading on those forums how warrior models, especially infantry units don't really exist in the game. That the power boost for warjacks made them irrelevant. The low POW weapons or models often get the comment "they are theoretically good but not in the mk3 environment where they have nothing to kill".

    I find it not true at all. And not only in my local environment but also battle reports from abroad seem to contradict that. Armies tend to have, on average 10-20 warrior models in units and additional 5-10 in support. There are some excellent infantry/cavalry units and solos in the game, that really pull their weight and appear very often. Trenchers, Stormlances, Idrians, Flamebringers, Karax, Ferox, Satyxis Raiders, Fennblades, Sentry Stones, Iron Fangs, Winterguard, Widowmakers, Dawnguard types, Mage Hunters, Farrow Brigands...the list could go on.

    In addition, most factions seem to have an even bigger group of not-best-but-still-good ones or ones which work very well with specific casters. They are even more numerous and also appear often.

    Add to this ubiquitous support models like the Krielstone, Choir, Paingivers and a smattering of solos of different flavours.

    That's a lot of warrior models in the, supposedly, warrior-light edition!

    Yes, there are some armies that include only warjacks or warbeasts with some support, but, from what see, they are an exception rather than a norm and are quite normal as they are tied to warcasters and warlocks who are created to run such armies, like Amon, Karchev or Absylonia 2. They are counter-balanced by many casters who only take very few warjacks/warbeasts and concentrate on infantry, because that's what they do best - Vindictus or High Reclaimer or Goreshade 2 are some examples. So, yes, those ends of the spectrum exist but still the most numerous middle seems to run combined arms to me.

    So, where does this conception of mk3 as an edition with no warrior models come from, in your opinion ? Or is your meta really only ARM+boxes and nobody plays dudes or horses ?
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  2. #2
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    when compared to mk2, im seeing 1 to 2 less units on the table. so, not that its completely devoid, there are just less reasons to take a lot of the anti infantry units/solos/jacks.

  3. #3
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    I do agree that infantry is used. That don't preclude infantry to be serverly held back by some hard counters that are particulary hard.

  4. #4
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    I'm still using warriors and I'm still facing warriors, so I can only assume that it must be happening in a friend of a friend of my sisters fiance's brothers meta.
    In other words, a myth.
    There are certainly fewer warriors around now than in MKII, but they still have a presence.
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  5. #5

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    Pawns are useful

  6. #6
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    In three rounds yesterday I saw 3 normal infantry units. Bile thralls and raiders from Cryx, and some of the 8 wound guys from coc. Nothing from khador and nothing from me playing circle. (I'm excluding sentry stones and hellmouths along with support units like shifting stones or krielstones when talking about infantry units as I think that's what people are generally assuming when they say there are no units on the table. )

    Just saying.

  7. #7
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    You will find that it is actually impossible to make a list without any warrior models - except for Khador(that has a non-warrior warcaster, Karchev1) or a faction with Battle Engine Warcaster/Warlock. A vast majority of warcaster/warlock models are warrior models.

    I like to use no regular units in MKII, for my faction is Cygnar and both Trencher Infantry and Stormblade Infantry - that was my regular unit - are mediocre at best. I can't rely on my units at all, and once I run three heavies it will be more comfortable than using my bad units. And actually I run the units more often now. Although it is only my case.
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  8. #8
    Destroyer of Worlds Malkav13's Avatar
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    This is going to vary from meta to meta. I use tons of infantry still, and others locally do to. But, if you head an hour north it could be different.
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  9. #9
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    Certainly seeing less infantry and more of it is longer ranged shooting stuff. I see things like WG rifles + rockets, stormlances, and trenchers. I'm not seeing anything close to what it was in mk2 where cryx was bringing 40+ dudes.

  10. #10

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    I think it is more balanced now, which I like. And which means, that there in general is "less" infantry now than it was in MK2. Especially on the Stompybot half of the game, powerup made running several Jacks much easier than it was before. Running 4 Jacks? Get 4 Focus "free", suddenly handling 10 or 11 Focus instead of 6 or 7. That is a big deal.
    In MK2 Focus was very sparse and naturally people looked for focus independent options after picking their one or two jacks. This lead to "Infantrymachine", especially in Khador and Cryx as I am told.
    Now you get not one but two jacks "for free" with your caster AND it is much easier to sustain 3,4,5 Jacks. And of course this raises the pointbar at which more Jacks cannot be supported and the rest of the points gets filled up with "other stuff".

    So yes, the jack/dude-quota shifted a lot towards the jacks (as declared intend and as I find appealing), but in most lists with most casters infantry is still viable, neccessary and useful. Its just not 15% Jacks 85% Infantry anymore.

  11. #11
    Destroyer of Worlds rabbit81's Avatar
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    At least for some factions, it's less "we can't use low pow x thing at all" and more "we already have that covered well by ubiquitous unit x, so we don't see enough to need more". Sentry Stones are what I'm thinking of here, but there are other examples of course.
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  12. #12
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    Sentry stones are both part of the problem, since they *also* make anything that play a lot of dude look silly.

  13. #13
    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    I think the idea that nobody plays infantry is overblown, it's single-wound melee infantry specifically that's in trouble. The nerfs to Rifle Corps and Ossyan certainly helped, but with Cygnar and Circle being so powerful in the meta and often requiring two different lists to handle the presence of Storm Lances and Sentry Stones still makes putting a unit of melee guys into your lists more a liability than anything, I've found. Cavalry, warjacks and shooting models are just safer includes.
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  14. #14
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    There's less of them played both in quantity and in variety, but there's definitely not none played. And players of most factions seem to want to play more (particularly variety, but also quantity in some cases) of them too, so I expect the equilibrium will shift a little bit accordingly as relevant errata are released.

  15. #15
    Destroyer of Worlds HRM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarskeMannen View Post
    I think the idea that nobody plays infantry is overblown, it's single-wound melee infantry specifically that's in trouble. The nerfs to Rifle Corps and Ossyan certainly helped, but with Cygnar and Circle being so powerful in the meta and often requiring two different lists to handle the presence of Storm Lances and Sentry Stones still makes putting a unit of melee guys into your lists more a liability than anything, I've found. Cavalry, warjacks and shooting models are just safer includes.
    Pretty much this. Your single-wound dudes like IFP and Banes simply WILL NOT get there. The shooting - combined with DEF decreases - is simply too smothering.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Wishing's Avatar
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    So it seems like the fairest description might be something like "there is little single-wound melee infantry units being played", not just warriors in general.

    It sounds like satyxis might be the main popular single-wound melee infantry option.

    The unpopular ones would be things like iron fangs, flameguard, mechanithralls, sword knights, etc.

  17. #17
    Destroyer of Worlds RandomThoughts's Avatar
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    I run 20 Sentinels in my 50 points Issyria list, does that count?


    (without CAs, too, since the points are just not there)
    Last edited by RandomThoughts; 01-09-2017 at 07:43 AM.

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  18. #18
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishing View Post
    So it seems like the fairest description might be something like "there is little single-wound melee infantry units being played", not just warriors in general.

    It sounds like satyxis might be the main popular single-wound melee infantry option.

    The unpopular ones would be things like iron fangs, flameguard, mechanithralls, sword knights, etc.
    I'm enjoying running Flameguard of all kinds myself. Daughters run interference brilliantly and TFG are still tough to remove.
    Of course, I'm not in any way representative of the Protectorate community.

    I think that it's just the meta shift that accompanies any new edition that is making single wound infantry seem so unappealing, but it really does do it's job and that is to slow down the 'jacks and 'beasts.
    Last edited by Spideredd; 01-09-2017 at 07:36 AM. Reason: Cleansers aren't melee troops.
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  19. #19
    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spideredd View Post
    I'm enjoying running Flameguard of all kinds myself. Cleansers are awesome as far as I'm concerened, Daughters run interference brilliantly and TFG are still tough to remove.
    Of course, I'm not in any way representative of the Protectorate community.
    Also Cleansers aren't... y'know, melee models.
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  20. #20
    Conqueror ReactantAborel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomThoughts View Post
    I run 20 Sentinels in my 50 points Issyria list, does that count?
    Although sentinels still get destroyed by auto damage(corrossion, sniper, deadly shot) they can achieve very high levels of armor so they can ignore blast damage in most cases and most unbuffed shooting in the 10-14 pow range depending on what buffs you give your sentinels. The highest I can think of is helynna feat, her armor increasing against range spell, ua minifeat, and the base to base ability they have.

    Looking across my faction lists I've seen a trend where I've intentionally avoided including certain infantry units. My lists have models like Sentinels, Daughters of the Flame, Tempest Blazers, and Arcane Tempest Gun Mages. Things with very high armor or the ability to gain it or have higher defense.

    I own iron fang pikeman, temple flameguard, sword knights, and man o war demolition corp but I'm not running them in any of my lists. The demo corps I'm waiting to see what happens for them bookwise and the others I just don't feel like I get good value out of them when I've run them.
    Last edited by ReactantAborel; 01-09-2017 at 07:43 AM.

  21. #21

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    Here are some things I regulary play against in my local meta (playing Legion):

    Khador: Between 5000 high POW / boostable blasts and Airburst I cannot play infantry. Even hard to kill solos (Deathstalker, BFS) are getting removed trivially. I cannot play single wound infantry.

    Cygnar: Stormwall + auto hitting lighting. Yeah.. No.

    Circle: Oh you brought infantry spam? Let me help you with that using Hellmouth.

    I would love to play Kallus with 3 full units but its an auto loss. So yeah, lacking ARM 20 sentinels I agree with the statement that mass infantry is not a thing.

  22. #22
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    Mass infantry isnt there. However its incorrect to say warriors are gone. There is a distinct decrease of warriors in mk3 and increase of warjacks in mk3. Logical because this was PPs aim all along.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarskeMannen View Post
    I think the idea that nobody plays infantry is overblown, it's single-wound melee infantry specifically that's in trouble. The nerfs to Rifle Corps and Ossyan certainly helped, but with Cygnar and Circle being so powerful in the meta and often requiring two different lists to handle the presence of Storm Lances and Sentry Stones still makes putting a unit of melee guys into your lists more a liability than anything, I've found. Cavalry, warjacks and shooting models are just safer includes.
    I think the problem with Cygnar is Storm Lances. Its quite annoying trying to get list feedback when the default answer is "Why don't you just bring Storm Lances?"

  24. #24
    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frbfli View Post
    I think the problem with Cygnar is Storm Lances. Its quite annoying trying to get list feedback when the default answer is "Why don't you just bring Storm Lances?"
    Well, it's a problem from both ends. Storm Lances are currently the best cavalry in the game, yes, and will generally be your best non-battlegroup melee option as they're quite self-sufficient and have a very broad range of good targets.

    However, it's also because other Cygnar non-battlegroup melee options currently aren't all that great. I don't think this is as much of a Cygnar-only problem as it's sometimes portrayed as most factions don't play their melee infantry very much, but if Storm Lances were to be toned down I still think people would mostly play them even if they were "just" as good as Uhlans or Vengers.
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  25. #25
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    I've been running a moderate amount of infantry in my lists. Usually they're specialist for a specific role they excel at such as Idrians, Kayazy, or Halberdiers.
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  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarskeMannen View Post
    Well, it's a problem from both ends. Storm Lances are currently the best cavalry in the game, yes, and will generally be your best non-battlegroup melee option as they're quite self-sufficient and have a very broad range of good targets.

    However, it's also because other Cygnar non-battlegroup melee options currently aren't all that great. I don't think this is as much of a Cygnar-only problem as it's sometimes portrayed as most factions don't play their melee infantry very much, but if Storm Lances were to be toned down I still think people would mostly play them even if they were "just" as good as Uhlans or Vengers.
    These are excellent points. I'm hoping that the new theme forces help some of the generally unused infantry models that each faction has.

  27. #27
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    Most multiwound infantry are also in a pretty bad shape right now following the nerfs they got in the edition change.
    Last edited by hns; 01-09-2017 at 08:27 AM.

  28. #28
    Destroyer of Worlds DevonV's Avatar
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    Yeah, basically unless your infantry has really high DEF, ARM, or guns, it's probably not finding a place on the battlefield unless Irusk is running it. Victim stats has never been a more accurate term. Also if it can't break a 'jack, that's usually a deal breaker.

    That's what's making dedicated anti-infantry so unappealing. There just isn't enough viable infantry at the moment.

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  29. #29
    Destroyer of Worlds SnarlyYow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevonV View Post
    There just isn't enough viable infantry at the moment.
    Do you mean individual factions have few realistically competitive infantry choices?

    If you look at the WTC lists you see infantry. Yes, we are seeing less of it. Yes, we are seeing some lists with nary a single unit. But I'd argue that this is game I bought three+ years ago when I got into it. I love the list building I'm seeing now. I love seeing Irusk lists with four units then a Ret list with 1. So, I'm not complaining.
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  30. #30
    Destroyer of Worlds DevonV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnarlyYow View Post
    Do you mean individual factions have few realistically competitive infantry choices?
    Yep. There are a lot of models in the game whos cost does not reflect their effect on the meta. Particularly everything that cannot kill or contribute to the kill on a heavy, and everything that dies trivially to shooting. The few solid units in each faction should be the template, not the exception. Human light 'jacks not painted blue also suffer from similar problems barring specific 'casters where they cost 3/4ths to more than a budget heavy, which they cannot hope to compete with in any way. Many light beasts not packing a ranged attack arguably have it worse.

    I'm thinking that models with a narrow specialty that isn't shooting should be cheaper to reflect the fact that they aren't always going to end up in the matchup they want. I find in a lot of games that "counterplay" models will be costed as if they will ALWAYS be fighting in their favored matchup, but the player rarely controls who their opponents will be.

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  31. #31
    Destroyer of Worlds NEoJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HRM View Post
    Pretty much this. Your single-wound dudes like IFP and Banes simply WILL NOT get there. The shooting - combined with DEF decreases - is simply too smothering.
    IFP won't get there? My Houseguard Halberdiers get there just fine, all the time. I get that Halberdiers are much faster, but I guarantee Shield Wall is actually pretty effective against most anti-infantry stuff when combined with terrain and maybe some support like an armor spell.

  32. #32
    Destroyer of Worlds NEoJoe's Avatar
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    So it sounds like a unit has to have one of the following to be playable in a competitive environment:

    High defense
    High armor
    Guns
    Very low point cost
    Some Z factor mechanic maybe

    And any of those are better if paired with high melee damage output. So an expensive, fragile, hard hitting melee unit is not seeing any top tables? (Not a trap question, just seeing what people think)

  33. #33
    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEoJoe View Post
    IFP won't get there? My Houseguard Halberdiers get there just fine, all the time. I get that Halberdiers are much faster, but I guarantee Shield Wall is actually pretty effective against most anti-infantry stuff when combined with terrain and maybe some support like an armor spell.
    Houseguard Halbs are MUCH faster up the table than IFP. If IFP want to Shield Wall your opponent will have a comfortable 3 turns of shooting into them, whereas a unit of Halbs with a Thane will move as fast in Shield Wall as many units run. They also have a longer charge threat which makes them less vulnerable to things like Idrians walking up, popping shots and then repositioning back.

    Quote Originally Posted by NEoJoe View Post
    So an expensive, fragile, hard hitting melee unit is not seeing any top tables? (Not a trap question, just seeing what people think)
    Sort of. Knights Exemplar see some play because High Reclaimer can teleport them across the entire table, but units like Stormblades, Doom Reavers and Bane Warriors rarely see much table time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReactantAborel View Post
    Although sentinels still get destroyed by auto damage(corrossion, sniper, deadly shot) they can achieve very high levels of armor so they can ignore blast damage in most cases and most unbuffed shooting in the 10-14 pow range depending on what buffs you give your sentinels. The highest I can think of is helynna feat, her armor increasing against range spell, ua minifeat, and the base to base ability they have.
    Issyria can use Blinding Light to protect them from some shooting (twice, if needed) and increases their threat range by 2" if she casts Crusader's Call. Kaelyssa has Blur and her feat. None of this adds up to completely screwing over any and all gunlines, but a lot of the casters that run Sentinels (certainly the ones running double Sents) help them out significantly against several types of common ones. Convenient Blast immunity too, though that's less important for Sentinels.

    Quote Originally Posted by NEoJoe View Post
    IFP won't get there? My Houseguard Halberdiers get there just fine, all the time. I get that Halberdiers are much faster, but I guarantee Shield Wall is actually pretty effective against most anti-infantry stuff when combined with terrain and maybe some support like an armor spell.
    What goes for Sentinels can apply to Halberdiers as well. Khador has a few excellent infantry casters, but for infantry into gunlines Ret is a lot better at supporting their melee dudes.
    Last edited by Pangur Ban; 01-09-2017 at 10:37 AM.

  35. #35
    Destroyer of Worlds NEoJoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarskeMannen View Post
    Houseguard Halbs are MUCH faster up the table than IFP. If IFP want to Shield Wall your opponent will have a comfortable 3 turns of shooting into them, whereas a unit of Halbs with a Thane will move as fast in Shield Wall as many units run. They also have a longer charge threat which makes them less vulnerable to things like Idrians walking up, popping shots and then repositioning back.



    Sort of. Knights Exemplar see some play because High Reclaimer can teleport them across the entire table, but units like Stormblades, Doom Reavers and Bane Warriors rarely see much table time.
    Hm. I'm still curious about IFP. Unless the enemy has AD guns (Idrians, Strike Force, and Clockwork Angles I think?) You can run on top of turn one, shield wall turn two, <do whatever is best given the situation> turn three, and you should be able to influence things just fine. Plus they still have their mini-feat abilities on top of it, unless they're avoiding those just to go super cheap.

    Good point about the KE. So basically, have one of those attributes or have an amazing synergy with some 'caster, which is usually going to be delivery related but doesn't automatically have to be.
    Last edited by NEoJoe; 01-09-2017 at 10:37 AM.

  36. #36
    Destroyer of Worlds SnarlyYow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevonV View Post
    1)There are a lot of models in the game whos cost does not reflect their effect on the meta.
    2)Particularly everything that cannot kill or contribute to the kill on a heavy, and everything that dies trivially to shooting.
    I broke your words up into two different thoughts.

    Regarding the former, I think you might be right. I think the exception is: "Can trade in points against other single wound dooders." Units like Widow Makers and Stormfall Archers are great trade up pieces. If you're looking at an expensive unit that is not toolboxy, that mulches infantry (Hey, like, every Cygnar unit that's not trenchers/Stormlances) they find themselves in a lot of matchups where their cost is too high to ever get real work done. Yes, I'm certain Stormguard have good matchups somewhere, but in too many matchups their abilities have too high a cost to match what's going on in the meta. Hopefully this is a meta cycle problem and not one with game design as a whole. I'm not a game designer so I won't speak to that.

    In regards to #2, this problem seems to be two problems: Contribute to killing a heavy and dying to shooting. But I'd argue that this is largely a problem with infantry as whole. Some types of infantry, Rifle Corps, can't really help kill a heavy. But at Range 14 and Rat7/9 they are the unit that kills things with shooting, not the unit being shot at. This is the same solution that Gun Mages had in MKii, they didn't die to shooting because at Range 14 they out threatened their natural predators. With fewer units as a whole on the table, units like Rifle Corps can trade up with many other units of dudes, or they CRA to plink away jacks.
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  37. #37
    Destroyer of Worlds wolf9416's Avatar
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    My meta doesn't notice a lack of infantry, although I run a Thexus list with 68 small based models so... that may have something to do with it...
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  38. #38
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    meanwhile as a legion player, I find myself throwing legionnaires, warspears, and/or raptors into most of my lists.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by frbfli View Post
    I think the problem with Cygnar is Storm Lances. Its quite annoying trying to get list feedback when the default answer is "Why don't you just bring Storm Lances?"
    To be fair, the default answer was "why don't you just bring Haley2 and a Stormwall". :P

    More on topic, I've been getting good work out of my Temple Flameguard when I'm running them under a caster that supports them. I wonder if we're just seeing less unsupported infantry models/units on the table. I seem to get much better work out of my TFG when I run them under Sevvy1 or Kreoss1 then under Feora1 or Malekus (I typically drop Defender's Ward on the TFG and ram them into zones/flags/doors/etc until they all drop dead). Looking at the favorite/common picks for units, what I see is that most of them tend to be power picks even when unsupported (such as the Storm Lances). Sure they work better when you support them, but they still blow up the world even without any support.
    I do the hobbies! All glory to the hobby gods! (for those interested in Pathfinder, Eberron, Warmachine/Hordes please take a look at my blog 4d6kobolds!)

    I wrote some quick reference docs for Warmachine mkIII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEoJoe View Post
    IFP won't get there? My Houseguard Halberdiers get there just fine, all the time. I get that Halberdiers are much faster, but I guarantee Shield Wall is actually pretty effective against most anti-infantry stuff when combined with terrain and maybe some support like an armor spell.
    If you have some way to deliver them, sure. Irusk 2 helps. Theoretically Zerkova 1 can cloud 'em up; I'm gonna try her out here soon. Generally though, if you can't run at ARM 18+, you're toast.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mod_GoLu View Post
    We always were the good guys. But sometimes being good requires being good with an axe.

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