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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    I'm fine with infantry being less selected overall, but I'm sad to see it be basically only melee infantry that suffer this fate, and that most melee units have been made almost perfectly useless instead of being niche options.
    What's best floats to the top. That said, it's not like I see Long Gunners played all that often. Or Steelhead Rifles. Or Houseguard Rifles. Anybody seen Errants or Zealots lately? I probably see more melee units played in Legion than ranged, and it wouldn't even be close if not for Lylyth3 (and to a lesser extent the other Lylyths). Winterguard Infantry might get played a bit more now that their cost is reduced, but I don't think they'll get anywhere near popular again.

    I'm not saying melee infantry has a great place in the game, that's clearly not true. But most factions have more melee units than ranged units, so more melee units suffer from just not being that one best option everybody takes. The issue with in-faction imbalance is probably just as big a problem for a lot of these melee units as the state of melee in the game is.
    Last edited by Pangur Ban; 01-10-2017 at 11:51 AM.

  2. #82
    Destroyer of Worlds Big Fat Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zzapper View Post
    Exactly this! I love my 11 point speedbump TFG! Drop defender's ward on them and they trundle around as a DEF 15, ARM 19 spiky blob is just pain and misery for my opponent to deal with (DEF 17 if you charge them ;D ). I've routinely had them weather Widowmakers and kamikaze drudge sprays with no ill effects (surprisingly I don't have a Cygnar main in my local meta). Every shot my opponent spends on trying to whittle down my TFG is a shot not aimed at my caster or my jacks (plus TFG aren't the worst things ever when charging, 3d6+10 does usually put boxes on something).
    That's the spirit.

    Honestly, even when I do run Full Fenns with CA they never kill 20 points worth of enemy models, but they do get up the board and jam very quickly, especially with Madrak 3 and/or Band of Heroes. I like to send in Champs or Long Riders next to charge through the holes. That's why Vengeance and Reposition are so good on Fennblades.
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  3. #83
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyel View Post
    Pre-supposes ? There's a question mark there, for Menoth's sake ;] Which hints that it's a question ;P

    I find answers about different experiences in different areas interesting, as expected it isn't as cut and dry.
    It's a question, but it suggests an answer. I didn't mean it as an accusation - I was just riffing on the headline and someone asked why I brought up the topic of myths, so I said why.

    But, I mean, really, if someone asks a question in a headline, there's usually a sense of an implication there. Like the pretend headline: "Has Hungerford Abused His Power?" sort of leads you in a direction, right?

    "Are Claims that Pagani Is Privateer Press's Most Excitable Employee a Lie?" seems to imply something right?


    Several other posters have directly asserted that the lack of infantry is in fact a myth, so we can point to them instead for why I proposed that the observations some posters made about lack of infantry were in fact myths if that is more helpful though.

  4. #84
    Destroyer of Worlds Sideshow Lucifer's Avatar
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    It's sadly the biggest reason I don't play as much as I used to or get excited about the game. Most lists all look the same anymore and are hyper specialized. They basically win or lose in list making for newer players.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideshow Lucifer View Post
    Most lists all look the same anymore and are hyper specialized. They basically win or lose in list making for newer players.
    I can't say this was different in Mk 2 at all. What was different is that usually you'd see 3 units and up to 2 warjacks while now you see 3 warjacks/warbeasts minimum with up to 2 units usually.

    Not that much is changed, Warjacks just got viable and yes this is also due to how many anti-infantry choices there are but much more because 'free focus for Warjacks' still is a free resource. As seen this resource isn't really broken but it does favour the use of multiple Warjacks and so does the increase in WJP. End total: More Warjacks/Warbeasts.

  6. #86

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    As a Cryx player, I would love to bring less infantry and not rely on Satyxis Raiders (in a competitive sense) but our Jack options suck pretty hard and when you look at the 19pts Satyxis Raiders + UA cost, it's very difficult to find a better way to spend those points from the choices Cryx has available.

    Why would I bring a Jack that costs between 12-18 points which can be rendered almost useless after 1 or 2 boosted POW 12's?
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteVieBizzLe View Post
    As a Cryx player, I would love to bring less infantry and not rely on Satyxis Raiders (in a competitive sense) but our Jack options suck pretty hard and when you look at the 19pts Satyxis Raiders + UA cost, it's very difficult to find a better way to spend those points from the choices Cryx has available.

    Why would I bring a Jack that costs between 12-18 points which can be rendered almost useless after 1 or 2 boosted POW 12's?
    Cryx suffers from the fact that at every level they have been nerfed a little bit or did not recieve a comparable boost as other factions.
    While this is worthy of a topic all on it's own this is where the consistancy issue of Mk 3 is it's biggest issue.

    Every faction got a discount on Jacks and Beasts which is a large plus but in certain cases these pieces recieved buffs and in others they lost stat values that made them so potent before.
    The same applies for a multitude of spells and general units. Some remained the same, some got better and some worse. This all can work out well (and largely does) but it does make the ones who stick out more obvious. Yet in most cases costs remain very comparable.

    Consistancy of design approach is the only real thing I can say PrivateerPress slipped on some parts for Mk 3. Warriors can be played, however the same inconsistancy appears again if you see that both 8 wound and 5 wound medium based units remained the same cost but significantly handed over stats. Skorne is full of these examples but so is Cryx and to some extend Trollbloods and Minions.

    PrivateerPress should have realized that removing and buffing stats in general should also affect their cost. There is a lot of room for error within the design but going into double digit costs and still swing with +2/-2 cost buffs and nerfs is just odd for a lack of better words.

    As an example:
    Man O War are worth 16 at max with their 8 boxes but at the moment you see comparable stats (or even lower) with 5 boxes also chime in on 16 you have to reconsider what you are doing. In that same vein I feel a lot of the 5 box medium based infantry could work as intended at cost 14 or 15.
    I had the hopes that this was also where the double digit cost design would have lead to.

    Same can be said for Stormlances versus all other Cavalry. Most other cavalry choices are worth 20 points at max but why is it then that at several levels 'worse' cavalry also costs 20 when compaired to Stormlances.

    Recent errata can also serve as an example:
    Both Berserker and Mad Dog recieved a cost increase, one had not proven himself in any meta, the other was clearly too good in-faction that usually worked with SPD 4 Heavies. The change to Mad Dog was correct, yet the +2 cost change was uncalled for. Both Mad Dog and Berserker could have functioned at 8 points if Karchev handed in some WJP. As the real oddity in the combination is a Warjack Warcaster with 30 WJP (and also the only Khador Warcaster with 30 WJP).

    As soon as PP will become consistent again with their design, Warmachine and Hordes will become great again.
    Last edited by JDAntoine; 01-11-2017 at 04:49 AM.

  8. #88
    Destroyer of Worlds Cyel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    It's a question, but it suggests an answer.
    Then it is totally unintentional. I was genuinely wondering if it is indeed a self-perpetuating forum myth because it isn't confirmed by my observations - both local and on the net, in reports from all over the world. So I asked about it.

    I am grateful for all the answers. It seems the answer is the predictable "it depends" Some communities seem to really be only about ARM adn boxes, others enjoy more variety.
    There's no such faction as "Menoth". You can't "play Menoth"

    There's the Protectorate.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyel View Post

    I am grateful for all the answers. It seems the answer is the predictable "it depends" Some communities seem to really be only about ARM adn boxes, others enjoy more variety.
    In general I will say that Mk3 offers more variety than it removed. Overall there is a higher warcaster viability. However with that game a higher warjack viability.

    What I hope PP will succeed into is that every faction will have the option (eventually) to run a Warrior heavy build paried with a Warjack heavy build.
    The competative top factions can allready do this and some cannot. The latter needs a distinctive push.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteVieBizzLe View Post
    Why would I bring a Jack that costs between 12-18 points which can be rendered almost useless after 1 or 2 boosted POW 12's?
    I'm pretty sure that Brutes are meant to fix this post-errata. Brutes eat the boosted shots meant for jacks on the approach so that you lose 2 point Brutes instead of a 15 point jack.

  11. #91
    Destroyer of Worlds RandomThoughts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Brutes are meant to fix this post-errata. Brutes eat the boosted shots meant for jacks on the approach so that you lose 2 point Brutes instead of a 15 point jack.
    Now if only they sold brutes solo, as I already own all the Mechanithralls I want to run...

    "As I often say, variety is the spice of wargaming" (Cyel)

  12. #92
    Destroyer of Worlds Ruffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Brutes are meant to fix this post-errata. Brutes eat the boosted shots meant for jacks on the approach so that you lose 2 point Brutes instead of a 15 point jack.
    To field Brutes, you have to field Mechanithralls which are overpriced significantly. This "fix" does not really work if you can field another Heavy Warjack instead of two Shield Guards plus their useless companions, does it?

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    To field Brutes, you have to field Mechanithralls which are overpriced significantly. This "fix" does not really work if you can field another Heavy Warjack instead of two Shield Guards plus their useless companions, does it?
    I'm not sure McThralls are as useless as people think. 6 pow 13 attacks for 6 points is one of the cheapest sources of attacks that can ding armor, especially combined with dark shroud via Scything Touch/Banes/Shadowmancer puts them in the same range as Bane Knights for damage. I think the biggest mistake people make with them is taking the necrosurgeon by default. It's often better just to take 6 more thralls.

  14. #94
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    McThralls are not useless, again it's the global combination of smaller nerfs that has lead to the current position of Cryx. In short there is very little to succesfully rely upon, which results in the Coven and Raiders being the only reliable pieces. The Wraith Engine at 15 is funny but otherwise the latest Cryx changes are not that meaningful. Asphyxious 2 is on some competative level again but the pieces required for him in order for him to be good have been furthermore untouched.

    I've posted the 5 key issues for Cryx in the Cryx subtopic but it does boil down to:
    1. WJP, overall lower as Warmachine average.
    2. Enemy Upkeeps, higher as Warmachine upkeep average and Spell Slave isn't there to assist with that.
    3. Lights, lower efficiency as Warmachine/Hordes norm, Arc Nodes are good but remember this faction also relies on it to do ANYTHING.
    4. Heavies, boxes are not their issue, reliance is, too many random effect Heavies.
    5. Infantry, should be a key asset of Cryx but they cannot support it. Other factions now support their infantry better. This includes Mercs, RoS and Khador but even PoM, CoC and Cygnar do a better job at it as Cryx right now.

  15. #95
    Destroyer of Worlds Ruffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    I'm not sure McThralls are as useless as people think. 6 pow 13 attacks for 6 points is one of the cheapest sources of attacks that can ding armor, especially combined with dark shroud via Scything Touch/Banes/Shadowmancer puts them in the same range as Bane Knights for damage. I think the biggest mistake people make with them is taking the necrosurgeon by default. It's often better just to take 6 more thralls.
    Cryx' main problem is getting stuff delivered and Mechanithralls are about the easiest target Cryx can present, so they don't solve a problem, they accentuate it. Putting Shield Guard on Brutes is meant well I'm sure, but it barely helps Cryx at all IMO.

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Brutes are meant to fix this post-errata. Brutes eat the boosted shots meant for jacks on the approach so that you lose 2 point Brutes instead of a 15 point jack.
    Yeah I guess, but now at minimum I need to bring 12 points of models to deliver an already over costed Jack.

    I get the intention is there, but the number just don't stack up in our favour imo.

    Let's use Nightmare as an example as he is one of our best heavies*. Nightmare is PC18, if we bring along a min McThrall unit with 3 Brutes that's 12 more points. In 99% of match ups, the McThralls die trivially before doing anything so we are effectively paying PC30 to bring Nightmare and to get him into melee. Nightmare now needs to earn back 30 points of enemy models to make this worth it.

    Can Nightmare do that? potentially yes, he can theoretically 1 round 2 heavies if he has been able to Prey them and has Ragman or spell support near by, but now we are talking EVEN MORE resources included into the mix.

    If Brutes were solos then they would be awesome, as they are, they are a good attachment for a very poor unit.

    *In terms of value-for-money damage output.
    Last edited by SteVieBizzLe; 01-11-2017 at 05:41 AM.
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  17. #97
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    I'm not sure McThralls are as useless as people think. 6 pow 13 attacks for 6 points is one of the cheapest sources of attacks that can ding armor, especially combined with dark shroud via Scything Touch/Banes/Shadowmancer puts them in the same range as Bane Knights for damage. I think the biggest mistake people make with them is taking the necrosurgeon by default. It's often better just to take 6 more thralls.
    Do they ever get there though? their defensive stats are some of the worst in the game.
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    Cryx' main problem is getting stuff delivered and Mechanithralls are about the easiest target Cryx can present, so they don't solve a problem, they accentuate it. Putting Shield Guard on Brutes is meant well I'm sure, but it barely helps Cryx at all IMO.
    Ruffy, with all respect to you, even if you got them delivered, nobody would care. In comparison, say I have those WGI (also a unit not used) now at the same cost level as Mechanithralls:
    1. WGI have a larger threat range
    2. WGI can hit harder (Kovnik Jozef)
    3. WGI Rocketeers are a meaningful threat to where Brute Thralls hope to do the same, IF they arrive

    TLDR; Cryx' problem isn't to deliver Thralls, its to deliver meaningful Spells, Lights, Heavies and Infantry.

  19. #99
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    What I find funny is the number of rules Satyxis Raiders lost, and how they are still arguably the best unit in Cryx. I don't know if that means they were far too good before, or whether everything else is now so terrible

    Having said that however, gang is a massive upgrade from CMA, which is probably one of the main reasons why they are still good.
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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    Cryx' main problem is getting stuff delivered and Mechanithralls are about the easiest target Cryx can present, so they don't solve a problem, they accentuate it. Putting Shield Guard on Brutes is meant well I'm sure, but it barely helps Cryx at all IMO.
    It depends on the list you're going up against. Against Amon or Vyros2 ARM spam you don't have to worry about delivery, you have to worry about volume of attacks. The trick I'm currently trying is a list pairing with Agathia and Thrall spam and the Coven/Denny2 (if ADR). Agathia gives them some protection from ranged on the approach and ghostly helps solve other problems.

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    Do they ever get there though? their defensive stats are some of the worst in the game.
    The idea I'm toying with is giving them mass stealth with Agathia. We'll see how it works.

  22. #102
    Destroyer of Worlds Ruffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDAntoine View Post
    Ruffy, with all respect to you, even if you got them delivered, nobody would care. In comparison, say I have those WGI (also a unit not used) now at the same cost level as Mechanithralls:
    1. WGI have a larger threat range
    2. WGI can hit harder (Kovnik Jozef)
    3. WGI Rocketeers are a meaningful threat to where Brute Thralls hope to do the same, IF they arrive

    TLDR; Cryx' problem isn't to deliver Thralls, its to deliver meaningful Spells, Lights, Heavies and Infantry.
    Well, I wrote a few posts above Mechanithralls are overcosted significantly.
    If they get there, they surely can do some things, but if I want a unit that can reliably do something and is still cheap, I'd definitely take Blood Witches over Mechanithralls. A max unit is only 3 points more and they bring Gang, Stealth, better stats and some other things to the table.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteVieBizzLe View Post
    Yeah I guess, but now at minimum I need to bring 12 points of models to deliver an already over costed Jack.

    I get the intention is there, but the number just don't stack up in our favour imo.

    Let's use Nightmare as an example as he is one of our best heavies*. Nightmare is PC18, if we bring along a min McThrall unit with 3 Brutes that's 12 more points. In 99% of match ups, the McThralls die trivially before doing anything so we are effectively paying PC30 to bring Nightmare and to get him into melee. Nightmare now needs to earn back 30 points of enemy models to make this worth it.
    Thralls don't have to die trivially. There's nothing that says "thralls have to be in front" when Nightmare approaches. Arm 18 is sufficient to ignore pow 10s for the most part and you can shield guard from behind with Nightmare blocking LOS to your squishy thralls. Let's wait until we've explored what we can do for a little bit before writing it off.

  24. #104
    Destroyer of Worlds Ruffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    It depends on the list you're going up against. Against Amon or Vyros2 ARM spam you don't have to worry about delivery, you have to worry about volume of attacks. The trick I'm currently trying is a list pairing with Agathia and Thrall spam and the Coven/Denny2 (if ADR). Agathia gives them some protection from ranged on the approach and ghostly helps solve other problems.
    Mechanithralls can't be a solution to Cryx' problems if they only work in matchups that aren't problematic to begin with, can they?

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    Well, I wrote a few posts above Mechanithralls are overcosted significantly.
    If they get there, they surely can do some things, but if I want a unit that can reliably do something and is still cheap, I'd definitely take Blood Witches over Mechanithralls. A max unit is only 3 points more and they bring Gang, Stealth, better stats and some other things to the table.
    Does it have to be either or? Witches could actually a good reason to bring a necrosurgeon. 2 max units of witches followed by a second wave of thralls means that you can recur thralls via dead witches. Since the thralls should arrive the turn after the witches have engaged the gunline the thralls would be able to activate.

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    What I find funny is the number of rules Satyxis Raiders lost, and how they are still arguably the best unit in Cryx. I don't know if that means they were far too good before, or whether everything else is now so terrible

    Having said that however, gang is a massive upgrade from CMA, which is probably one of the main reasons why they are still good.
    The latter is most certainly more true. But terrible is not the right word, premeassurement per definition boosted ranged attacks or made higher threat ranges even more meaningful.
    You currently get a +2 RAT reward if you do not move and there is no downside to this as you can meassure wether or not you can move.
    While failed Charges still end your activation... While Tramples cant fail...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    Well, I wrote a few posts above Mechanithralls are overcosted significantly.
    If they get there, they surely can do some things, but if I want a unit that can reliably do something and is still cheap, I'd definitely take Blood Witches over Mechanithralls. A max unit is only 3 points more and they bring Gang, Stealth, better stats and some other things to the table.
    I think there is more as being overcosted. Because costs are only too high if you cannot support it decently.

    As an Khadoran example, I don't thake IFP with Karchev because he doesn't do something for them at all, making that 19 point cost too high. But when I thake them with Irusk 2 that cost is never too high because I can protect the module with tripple abilities/spells.

    Cryx as a whole has several problems which are not fixed by altering one or two things. It needs a redesign for a larger part if you ask me.
    Since the removal of Mk2 spell slave I know that many of the enemy upkeeps that cost 3 by comparison cost 1 focus too much. Because in order to ensure a connection they actually cost 4.
    Last edited by JDAntoine; 01-11-2017 at 06:05 AM.

  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    Mechanithralls can't be a solution to Cryx' problems if they only work in matchups that aren't problematic to begin with, can they?
    My problem is that my lists tend to be either/or. The coven+soul hunters+raiders build provides a hard counter to lots of gunlines but it has a hard time cracking super heavy arm lists (which are currently en vogue). What I want is a list that I can use to provide a different look against ranged armies and still be able to handle lots of armor (eg. Agathia).

    What other problematic matchups do you see other than spray and electroleap spam?

  28. #108
    Destroyer of Worlds Ruffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    Does it have to be either or? Witches could actually a good reason to bring a necrosurgeon. 2 max units of witches followed by a second wave of thralls means that you can recur thralls via dead witches. Since the thralls should arrive the turn after the witches have engaged the gunline the thralls would be able to activate.
    It's just another unreliable module, but this time you bring overpriced Mechanithralls and risky Necrosurgeons. Sure you can field it, but it won't bring reliable results and it does not address Cryx' problems.

  29. #109
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    I'm not sure McThralls are as useless as people think. 6 pow 13 attacks for 6 points is one of the cheapest sources of attacks that can ding armor, especially combined with dark shroud via Scything Touch/Banes/Shadowmancer puts them in the same range as Bane Knights for damage. I think the biggest mistake people make with them is taking the necrosurgeon by default. It's often better just to take 6 more thralls.
    That's all great if the thralls get there - but since you're specifically dropping them into shooting, and they are impossible to miss and impossible to fail to kill, they will not get there. They have about a zero percent chance of crossing the table against shooting, especially when you are moving them into position to use their WA to shield guard. They cost an awful lot of points for models that are assured to die without any impact other than allowing you to bring the WA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    Mechanithralls can't be a solution to Cryx' problems if they only work in matchups that aren't problematic to begin with, can they?
    Plus, in a SR environment what are the odds of a player dropping their Synergy caster or ARM spam list in general against Cryx? It's quite likely their other list is simply a better option. It doesn't matter whether a matchup is problematic or not if it's a matchup you probably won't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    My problem is that my lists tend to be either/or. The coven+soul hunters+raiders build provides a hard counter to lots of gunlines but it has a hard time cracking super heavy arm lists (which are currently en vogue). What I want is a list that I can use to provide a different look against ranged armies and still be able to handle lots of armor (eg. Agathia).

    What other problematic matchups do you see other than spray and electroleap spam?
    Scaring off gunlines with the Coven is one thing, but what do you end up with instead then? You're kind of banking on the alternative being ARM spam, but that's not always going to work out. Lots of control/denial out there too, for instance.
    Last edited by Pangur Ban; 01-11-2017 at 06:22 AM.

  31. #111
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    Thralls don't have to die trivially. There's nothing that says "thralls have to be in front" when Nightmare approaches. Arm 18 is sufficient to ignore pow 10s for the most part and you can shield guard from behind with Nightmare blocking LOS to your squishy thralls. Let's wait until we've explored what we can do for a little bit before writing it off.
    nightmare is big, but nowhere near fat enough to block LOS to a whole unit I'd say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pangur Ban View Post
    Plus, in a SR environment what are the odds of a player dropping their Synergy caster or ARM spam list in general against Cryx? It's quite likely their other list is simply a better option. It doesn't matter whether a matchup is problematic or not if it's a matchup you probably won't get.
    Khador had the same issue in Mk 2, they basically switched places.

    A reliance of infantry isn't bad if your capable to select from a wide range of reliable infantry but this isn't found in Cryx.
    A reliance of infantry isn't bad if your capable to select from a wide range of reliable (heavy) warjacks but this isn't found in Cryx either.

    Current Khador has reliable infantry, even Man O War Shocktroopers are added to the old mix.
    Current Khador has a wide selection of reliable heavy warjacks, marauder, juggernaut and kodiak to just name a few.

    Anyone is free to say Cryx is allright but when you do some cross comparisons you'll insantly see where it fails and that's reliability (and not only against guns).

  33. #113
    Destroyer of Worlds Ruffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    What other problematic matchups do you see other than spray and electroleap spam?
    I wouldn't know where to begin, but generally, Cryx does not do well in the attrition aspect of the game and the Warcasters that seem geared towards attrition fall short in other aspects. As a result, the games feel like Cryx is desperately trying to get a significant punch in while the army melts away. In MK2, it was probably the opposite and the opponent was desperately trying to melt away enough of the Cryx force to not get overrun. Middle ground probably would have been nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    That's all great if the thralls get there - but since you're specifically dropping them into shooting, and they are impossible to miss and impossible to fail to kill, they will not get there. They have about a zero percent chance of crossing the table against shooting, especially when you are moving them into position to use their WA to shield guard. They cost an awful lot of points for models that are assured to die without any impact other than allowing you to bring the WA.
    There are two classes of shooting in Warmachine/Hordes, shooting via Jacks/Warbeasts/Battle engines which tends to be high pow and boostable and have access to tools like True Sight and infantry based shooting which is typically inaccurate or low pow (rocketeers being a notable exception) but much higher volume. Brutes solve the former but not the latter problem.

    I don't expect Brute/thrall/carrion heavy lists to go well into Ossyan, 30 WGRC or Nemo3. But I do expect it to have some game against the Lylyth1 and Lylyth3 lists I run in as well as arm spam.

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    some game
    Some game is not enough game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    nightmare is big, but nowhere near fat enough to block LOS to a whole unit I'd say.
    It's fun to try. I used to have a Bane Rider conga line until my friend started parasiting the Riders and killing them with pow 10s.

    Come to think of it Brutes might resurrect that as well.

  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    I wouldn't know where to begin, but generally, Cryx does not do well in the attrition aspect of the game and the Warcasters that seem geared towards attrition fall short in other aspects. As a result, the games feel like Cryx is desperately trying to get a significant punch in while the army melts away. In MK2, it was probably the opposite and the opponent was desperately trying to melt away enough of the Cryx force to not get overrun. Middle ground probably would have been nice.
    I've had less trouble with attrition since I moved to a 2 carrion build instead of Raiders. From my experience Raiders die far too easily (and eat up too many points). Now instead of throwing away 40 points early I'm throwing away 20 (and they go into armor better with CMA and finisher). The still need support against shooting, but they're especially cute with Agathia.

  38. #118
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    I'm excited by the carrion thralls, and I'm glad to hear they are working for you - but I have to admit, that thralls, as second unit of raiders, and new jacks like the inflictor being the only real options is pretty annoying. Despite owning almost the whole faction in MK2, I am able to play 1 unit that I already owned. I may as well re-buy a totally different faction or totally different game than play cryx given how much of the faction got turned into hot hot garbage. Of all the stuff I painted already, only the WSC is still played in competitive lists. That's not really making me think I should waste any more money on the faction if the thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours I already spent got me one painted unit, one unpainted unit, and a few casters and jacks.

    I mean, even if they fix cryx so you can play the jacks - if it's only jacks I don't already own and the warrior models stay hot garbage, it will be a really long time before I consider buying any cryx models.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npe View Post
    Thralls don't have to die trivially. There's nothing that says "thralls have to be in front" when Nightmare approaches. Arm 18 is sufficient to ignore pow 10s for the most part and you can shield guard from behind with Nightmare blocking LOS to your squishy thralls. Let's wait until we've explored what we can do for a little bit before writing it off.
    Point taken, but what then are the McThralls doing exactly?

    And the math still doesn't stack up. Let's say we have 2 heavies, Nightmare + Inflictor and we bring 2 Shieldboats to protect them at 12pts each. That's effectively 55 points to deliver 2 heavies, because from experience, an average list from Ret, Cygnar, Khador, Menoth or Legion (to highlight a few) easily has enough tech to remove 6 brutes in 2 turns, we aren't talking about ARM 18 tanks here...

    So the 2 turns it takes to cross the table one can realistically expect to lose all of the Brutes.

    I wonder how many heavies other factions could bring for 55 points? I bet it's more than 2.

    I am willing to give it a try, but I have no faith in Shield Guard Brutes fixing the faction, no matter how much of a positive spin you want to put on it.
    Check out my new YouTube channel for all things Warmachine/Hordes and Cryx!

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyT...BfSlcDwpOfjCfQ

    And my Blog - http://thenightmareempire.blogspot.co.uk/

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteVieBizzLe View Post
    Point taken, but what then are the McThralls doing exactly?

    And the math still doesn't stack up. Let's say we have 2 heavies, Nightmare + Inflictor and we bring 2 Shieldboats to protect them at 12pts each. That's effectively 55 points to deliver 2 heavies, because from experience, an average list from Ret, Cygnar, Khador, Menoth or Legion (to highlight a few) easily has enough tech to remove 6 brutes in 2 turns, we aren't talking about ARM 18 tanks here...

    So the 2 turns it takes to cross the table one can realistically expect to lose all of the Brutes.

    I wonder how many heavies other factions could bring for 55 points? I bet it's more than 2.

    I am willing to give it a try, but I have no faith in Shield Guard Brutes fixing the faction, no matter how much of a positive spin you want to put on it.
    I don't mind Cryx armies at the core being about quantity over quality, trying to have enough left to get work done after an unavoidable amount of attrition (preferably with a high-quality caster enabling this though). Given that this has not turned out to be effective enough, I still find it a strange option to basically allow players to throw more points at it in the form of models that only exist as ablative armour. This doesn't improve quality, so that tradeoff remains where it was, and it effectively reduces quantity as you can't spend as many points on your "work" models. Which served as ablative armour in the first place, through that quantity over quality mechanic. The only way this could work is if the Mechanithralls + Brutes solution provided better ablative armour for the points without trading down on work power, and that really doesn't seem to be the case. At least not to a meaningful enough degree, as far as I can tell.

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