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  1. #1
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    Default Eye of Truth Vs. Triumph

    I just can't understand how these two jacks can exist in the same game system.

    Eye of Truth
    Spd5
    Str11
    MAT7
    RAT6
    Def10
    Arm19
    Gaze of Justice RNG8 ROF1 POW14 Continuous Fire, Magical
    Shield RNG1 P+S13 +2 ARM
    Holy Wrath RNG2 P+S18 Continuous Fire, Magical, Flame Burst
    Immunity Fire
    Ashen Veil
    Bond [Malekus] - While this model is bonded and in control, Malekus can channel spells through Eye of Truth
    Holy Light - While within 5" of this model friendly models ignore spells that add to an enemies armor or defense
    Oracular Vision - Spend a focus to prevent damage from an attack
    20pts
    34 Damage Boxes

    We get two shots, one unboostable, 2 more useless defense, less armor, less boxes, no melee weapon. Oh and it can see stealth if we don't move.

    At least Oracular vision is the same thing that Sevy 2 has so it can't double up to avoid two incoming attacks.

    It's getting harder and harder to justify bringing Arcane Shield.

  2. #2
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Eye of Truth have no problem. Also remember that it is a melee warjack.

    The only problem is the very existance of Triumph, and it have really no connection with Eye of Truth.
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  3. #3

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    Does help me get a bit excited for exactly how mighty mighty Brickhouse might be.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrVeux View Post
    Does help me get a bit excited for exactly how mighty mighty Brickhouse might be.
    yeah, brickhouse will be amazing. I think we're seeing the real beginnings of power creep.


    A far greater problem with eye is how completely it overshadows the avatar, because those are in the same faction. Triumph is fine, it's a ranged model with multiple high power attacks. It really has no good basis of comparison to eye.
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  5. #5
    Destroyer of Worlds The Aegis's Avatar
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    Don't spread salt on an open wound.

    Everything in Cygnar is "working within an acceptable power curve", so nothings need changes, right?
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  6. #6
    Annihilator 6_Focus's Avatar
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    What's a Triumph??

  7. #7
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    Eh, you're probably right. Pit this guy against a Storm Clad then. Still for 2 more points you get a lot more love. Perhaps I've just got the grumbles. Would like to see our jacks provide a little love to our infantry as our infantry is so meh. Truth here gives out blessed, Discordia hands out Arm buffs... Ok I'm just salty.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Aegis View Post
    Don't spread salt on an open wound.

    Everything in Cygnar is "working within an acceptable power curve", so nothings need changes, right?

    well if you're going to be like that.....


    The jacks just fill such vastly different roles. Triumph is one of the only shield guards that can babysit something from afar yet still contribute to the fight. Permanent explosivo, twice per turn, seems pretty good, I'd love to use something like that. Eye of truth is a frontline jack that can outlast a single charging heavy, as it'll stop the charge damage, and maybe get an eye laser off. Yes, he's great. But that's simply not what triumph is meant to do, and they should not be compared. Brickhouse will likely be a much better comparison once we find out what the electro-hand is.



    Now, triumph's closest menoth equivalent is likely the reckoner, a jack that is comfortably undercosted by at least a point. He trades defensive value for melee output. Flare notwithstanding, the jacks have a similar gun, but triumphs reaches longer, gains magical, an extra shot, and native (if admittedly restricted) true sight. If these qualities are not what you find yourself prizing, then I would suspect you have little use for triumph. Personally, I'd include him in any siege list I cared to write.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    Triumph is fine, it's a ranged model with multiple high power attacks

  10. #10

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    Brick will be the proper comparison.

    Triumph's concept was nice, they just haven't figured out how to make him worthwhile (Proteus was in the same place for a while, but melee is easier to fix)
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  11. #11
    Conqueror ofthez's Avatar
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    this is what happens then from day 1, you force the release of a model without having deeper toughs into its concept and its role
    Playing E-Caine is like having a pair of jacks and going all in after getting 9, 10, J at the River

  12. #12
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    To be fair, comparing Triumph to almost any character jack makes him look like ****. Eye of Truth is definitely at the upper end of character power, and so he makes the comparison even worse. I mean, compare Triumph to Behemoth.

  13. #13

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    Comparison tables:
    Apotheosis jacks to apotheosis jacks: T-head, DJ, Behemoth
    Character upgrade kits: Triumph, Torch, Rocinante, Rok, Proteus
    Battle box caster characters: Eye, Brick, etc

    If you don't follow these comparison rules, you're doing it wrong.
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  14. #14
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    protectorates faction identity got hit really hard in mk3 so eye of truth was obviously introduced to bring some of that identity back.

  15. #15
    Destroyer of Worlds Octavius_Maximus's Avatar
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    Compare Triumph to (Literally any model in the game).

    "Wow, Triumph sucks compared to (Literally any model in the game)."

  16. #16
    Destroyer of Worlds Octavius_Maximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulblighter View Post
    protectorates faction identity got hit really hard in mk3 so eye of truth was obviously introduced to bring some of that identity back.
    I...really don't see how this is true?

    Isn't this the faction which still has enliven (still useful on a number of casters) and Choir denial?

  17. #17
    Combatant dirgepiper's Avatar
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    Soulblighter is 100% correct. Eye is PP trying to give direction and identity to Protectorate
    We DID start the fire

  18. #18
    Destroyer of Worlds The Aegis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    well if you're going to be like that.....


    The jacks just fill such vastly different roles. Triumph is one of the only shield guards that can babysit something from afar yet still contribute to the fight. Permanent explosivo, twice per turn, seems pretty good, I'd love to use something like that. Eye of truth is a frontline jack that can outlast a single charging heavy, as it'll stop the charge damage, and maybe get an eye laser off. Yes, he's great. But that's simply not what triumph is meant to do, and they should not be compared. Brickhouse will likely be a much better comparison once we find out what the electro-hand is.



    Now, triumph's closest menoth equivalent is likely the reckoner, a jack that is comfortably undercosted by at least a point. He trades defensive value for melee output. Flare notwithstanding, the jacks have a similar gun, but triumphs reaches longer, gains magical, an extra shot, and native (if admittedly restricted) true sight. If these qualities are not what you find yourself prizing, then I would suspect you have little use for triumph. Personally, I'd include him in any siege list I cared to write.
    Let's just not derail the topic explaining how wrong you are... I think other comments already nailed it.
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  19. #19
    Destroyer of Worlds phreaker187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iratebanana View Post
    Comparison tables:
    Apotheosis jacks to apotheosis jacks: T-head, DJ, Behemoth
    Character upgrade kits: Triumph, Torch, Rocinante, Rok, Proteus
    Battle box caster characters: Eye, Brick, etc

    If you don't follow these comparison rules, you're doing it wrong.
    No, jacks should be compared to each other on how many points they cost, not which generation they were released in. PP tries to balance 'jacks based on what faction they belong in, which is apparently pretty hard.
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  20. #20
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    Be civil or don't post. There's multiple different vectors in here where this thread is heading off the rails.
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  21. #21
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    protectorates faction identity got hit really hard in mk3 so eye of truth was obviously introduced to bring some of that identity back.
    No it didn't. They're still a huge denial faction. Choir are still Choir. They still have piles of fire synergy.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Octavius_Maximus View Post
    I...really don't see how this is true?

    Isn't this the faction which still has enliven (still useful on a number of casters) and Choir denial?
    This is one of those points where soulblighter is right, but you have to be careful of hyperbole. Our Identity and power DID get tamped down kinda far. Durgen's field marshal, and then Horgle 2 right after malekus felt like slaps in the face. Seeing harbinger nerfed to half feat range while haley 2 didn't really change much sucked. The book's no KD went to half range. Enliven lost parry. Reclaimers picked up some new tricks but lost their best one. Knights exemplar are still really nice, but don't feel the same. Zealots are now "pay 16 points to die twice." Choir got nerfed in what I've found to be a mostly fair way, but some jacks (cough repenter cough) feel it disproportionately. the list trails on and i've spent too long on it already.

    We're still strong. We're still fun. But playing to our strongest points rarely feels all that....protectoratey...compared to past incarnations. The puzzle box of doom is gone, replaced by pick up sticks made of dynamite: if you can disassemble our army in the right order of chunks, you win. He's expensive, but eye is that old ID roaring back. what are you gonna do? resist him with spells? charge him with you one hyped up jack? jam him? that won't work. You better figure out fast, because he's trundling ever closer.....
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  23. #23
    Destroyer of Worlds Octavius_Maximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    This is one of those points where soulblighter is right, but you have to be careful of hyperbole. Our Identity and power DID get tamped down kinda far. Durgen's field marshal, and then Horgle 2 right after malekus felt like slaps in the face. Seeing harbinger nerfed to half feat range while haley 2 didn't really change much sucked. The book's no KD went to half range. Enliven lost parry. Reclaimers picked up some new tricks but lost their best one. Knights exemplar are still really nice, but don't feel the same. Zealots are now "pay 16 points to die twice." Choir got nerfed in what I've found to be a mostly fair way, but some jacks (cough repenter cough) feel it disproportionately. the list trails on and i've spent too long on it already.

    We're still strong. We're still fun. But playing to our strongest points rarely feels all that....protectoratey...compared to past incarnations. The puzzle box of doom is gone, replaced by pick up sticks made of dynamite: if you can disassemble our army in the right order of chunks, you win. He's expensive, but eye is that old ID roaring back. what are you gonna do? resist him with spells? charge him with you one hyped up jack? jam him? that won't work. You better figure out fast, because he's trundling ever closer.....
    Yeah, not sure I believe most of that to be some kind of an assault on your identity.

    Enliven needed to change and is still great to have for a few casters. Its now great shooting defence while also helping vs melee with a few casters.

    The Harby nerf was a nerf to her power, it doesn't change to puzzle box at all.

    The books no knockdown went to half range, but it still exists. Also, for examplars, Gravus exists in the same form and even got better.

    Meanwhile you still have a lot of anti magic and blessed and also have a done of cheap, incidental shield guards to bring the puzzle box back and eSev's field marshal exists!

    Protectorates identity is still there and the idea that Eye of Truth is some kind of an 'apology' for taking away your denial is pretty ludicrous.

  24. #24
    Conqueror Rift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormpuppy_Infantry View Post
    Eye of Truth have no problem. Also remember that it is a melee warjack.

    The only problem is the very existance of Triumph, and it have really no connection with Eye of Truth.

    Let me try again

    What do you mean by the problem is the very existence of triumph ?

    (No need to delete the post just asking a question, it's not meant as a personal attack or slight)

  25. #25
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    Let me try again

    What do you mean by the problem is the very existence of triumph ?

    (No need to delete the post just asking a question, it's not meant as a personal attack or slight)
    Well, I mean just its bad performance cause the problem, and that is not related with the other model at all - especially the other faction's, and the model with totally diffrent purpose. If OP compares Triumph and Defender then it may a considerable problem, for the presence of Defender actually removes the reason to field Triumph because both models shares the same faction, and they have the similar purpose but Defender is superior at that.
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  26. #26

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    I also think that Triumph fills an interesting space design wise which merit it as a war jack. The first thing towards that point is that everything that PP releases can't be as good as everything else. There will always be tournament standouts and pieces that are extremely niche or just meant to be flavorful and fun. Sometimes I wonder if we don't get slightly spoiled by being the faction that has access to Thorn and Gallant and Ol'Rowdy and Dynamo, character jacks that have placed on multiple lists that aren't even their casters.

    Triumph is something that I've seen most Siege lists on here at least consider, which means it's at it's core a decently designed character jack. I look at him and see two things that siege is always looking for in a list, a big gun and a shield guard. Now the problem with this is that big guns are always expensive and shield guard gives you a crap Melee if it it's your only Melee. And the full execution is not quite up to snuff with what we'd like for the faction, but that doesn't mean he's without his place.

    In looking at the Eye, I see something that is maybe designed for tournament play. Admittedly, I can't speak with full certainty as I haven't played against Menoth since early MkII, but it sounds like this is the toy that Menoth players have been praying for. And good for them. I for one look forward to seeing this thing stand up intimidating and trying to crush it under the hooves of the unit of stormlances that is sitting on my painting table right now.

    Anyway, I apologize if this got long and rambly, but it's what happens when I go off on a good rant while typing on my phone.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Octantis View Post
    I just can't understand how these two jacks can exist in the same game system.
    Different factions have different strengths and weaknesses and models need to fit into their faction's idiom.

    Regardless of how powerful Triumph isn't (and I hate Triumph and have since we first saw rules for it), the fact remains that we do actually support shooting jacks quite well. And in a different manner to the Protectorate.

    Compareing cross faction just doesn't work on a model by model basis. Especially if we're talking about how terrible Triumph is!

    I mean. He's a worse defender for more points. And he's EVEN WORSE with the character he's supposedly designed to be used with.

    So why care what some Menite junker does compared to him?
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  28. #28
    Destroyer of Worlds SnarlyYow's Avatar
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    This is another one of those bewildering releases from PP. I can't even.
    The game is good.
    The B13 are fine
    Listen to the Storm Chamber

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by leo_neil316 View Post
    I mean. He's a worse defender for more points. And he's EVEN WORSE with the character he's supposedly designed to be used with.
    Eh. He's better with Siege than without primarily because the big guy doesn't have to provide any resources to him. He has perma explosivo so Siege can put it on another model. Literally, he's only worth his points (arguable) in Siege lists. If he costed as much as a defender (Dynamo only costs as much as a Stormclad), no one would complain.

    Triumph is sub par, but not garbage. Jeez, put him on the table with reasonable expectations. Similar to the cyclone, he's a heavy that can't compete with other heavies in melee. The closest comparison in abilities is to the Avalancher.

    TLDR: Triumph isn't as bad as the hive mind likes to think.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by iratebanana View Post
    Eh. He's better with Siege than without primarily because the big guy doesn't have to provide any resources to him. He has perma explosivo so Siege can put it on another model. Literally, he's only worth his points (arguable) in Siege lists. If he costed as much as a defender (Dynamo only costs as much as a Stormclad), no one would complain.

    Triumph is sub par, but not garbage. Jeez, put him on the table with reasonable expectations. Similar to the cyclone, he's a heavy that can't compete with other heavies in melee. The closest comparison in abilities is to the Avalancher.

    TLDR: Triumph isn't as bad as the hive mind likes to think.
    Triumph has yet to fail me and I have quite a few games with it and its master.
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  31. #31

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    Triumph as he stands now have some issues. Comparing him to other similarly costed models is a trap - Triumph mixes some interesting abilities but not the ones you need in a game.At his point cost, both shots needs to happen during activation for him to be remotely interesting, and even then, he suffers. Shield+shieldguard on a ranged jack sounds cool, but you either A)have ranged firepower superiority in which case opponent rushes to engage or B) have a matchup where opposing army is the ranged bully that can take out you Triumph outright since he is a nice chunk of points

    For me personally it's hunters, and Defenders - defender brings a nice melee presence for scenario A)

  32. #32
    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    Eye of Truth is great. 20 points is a lot, but the 'jack has enough special rules to merit the price tag. The Blessed Aura and the gun let it contribute before you decide to piece trade it, and it can chip in as an expensive zone holder by camping a focus to threaten Oracular Vision against any big threat coming in. Where I think people slightly overestimate it is in its role as a piece trading 'jack, as it is quite hard to make good use of both Oracular Vision and its ARM-cracking capacity in the same turn; if you want to camp 1 you're curtailing your damage output by quite a bit. That's a very minor quibble on a great piece, though

    And I mean... Triumph made itself bad. This thread could just as well have been called Dynamo vs. Triumph and it would have been just as valid without the alarmist cross-faction comparisons.
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  33. #33
    Destroyer of Worlds Stormpuppy_Infantry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarskeMannen View Post
    Eye of Truth is great. 20 points is a lot, but the 'jack has enough special rules to merit the price tag. The Blessed Aura and the gun let it contribute before you decide to piece trade it, and it can chip in as an expensive zone holder by camping a focus to threaten Oracular Vision against any big threat coming in. Where I think people slightly overestimate it is in its role as a piece trading 'jack, as it is quite hard to make good use of both Oracular Vision and its ARM-cracking capacity in the same turn; if you want to camp 1 you're curtailing your damage output by quite a bit. That's a very minor quibble on a great piece, though

    And I mean... Triumph made itself bad. This thread could just as well have been called Dynamo vs. Triumph and it would have been just as valid without the alarmist cross-faction comparisons.
    Yeah. Compare a bad model with a brand new good model of the other faction and totally diffrent purpose seems pointless.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by iratebanana View Post
    Eh. He's better with Siege than without primarily because the big guy doesn't have to provide any resources to him. He has perma explosivo so Siege can put it on another model. Literally, he's only worth his points (arguable) in Siege lists. If he costed as much as a defender (Dynamo only costs as much as a Stormclad), no one would complain.

    Triumph is sub par, but not garbage. Jeez, put him on the table with reasonable expectations. Similar to the cyclone, he's a heavy that can't compete with other heavies in melee. The closest comparison in abilities is to the Avalancher.

    TLDR: Triumph isn't as bad as the hive mind likes to think.
    Except that in a Siege list you're going to be dropping mage sight to get around stealth on the move anyway. And siege isn't scared of being shot. So having 4 extra points (GMCA!) and that POW 17 hammer for backup is just better. Sure, if you need a magical gun it'll cost you one, whole, focus, instead of being free. But if you need to breach and charge someone the defender has your back. Also you have a GMCA.

    pCaine is a better choice for Triumph to be honest. Snipe lets him sit back and use that aiming, stealth ignoring shot, and also the shot in the maintinance phase much better. Or Kara or p/eHaley where his extra accuracy and extra, unboosted, shot play into their ability to increase accuracy and volume of fire.
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  35. #35
    Destroyer of Worlds slinkdawg's Avatar
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    I never bought Triumph and don't plan to in the future. No one is making you waste money or game time on a badly designed model. I think that's a fair option to simply not purchase and not play a bad model.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo_neil316 View Post
    Except that in a Siege list you're going to be dropping mage sight to get around stealth on the move anyway. And siege isn't scared of being shot. So having 4 extra points (GMCA!) and that POW 17 hammer for backup is just better. Sure, if you need a magical gun it'll cost you one, whole, focus, instead of being free. But if you need to breach and charge someone the defender has your back. Also you have a GMCA.

    pCaine is a better choice for Triumph to be honest. Snipe lets him sit back and use that aiming, stealth ignoring shot, and also the shot in the maintinance phase much better. Or Kara or p/eHaley where his extra accuracy and extra, unboosted, shot play into their ability to increase accuracy and volume of fire.
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  37. #37
    Destroyer of Worlds The Aegis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slinkdawg View Post
    I never bought Triumph and don't plan to in the future. No one is making you waste money or game time on a badly designed model. I think that's a fair option to simply not purchase and not play a bad model.
    Sure, having a dead entry where other factions have a viable jack is a bit less fair.

    If then the dead entries are a lot more then one, or if like in the case of B13 or Silverline Stormguard, an once viable (and so already purchased/painted) option becomes a dead entry, the thing gets frustrating, so you would suppose that game developers would try to address things that make their game frustrating, but apparently "everything is working within an acceptable curve".
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  38. #38
    Destroyer of Worlds slinkdawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Aegis View Post
    Sure, having a dead entry where other factions have a viable jack is a bit less fair.

    If then the dead entries are a lot more then one, or if like in the case of B13 or Silverline Stormguard, an once viable (and so already purchased/painted) option becomes a dead entry, the thing gets frustrating, so you would suppose that game developers would try to address things that make their game frustrating, but apparently "everything is working within an acceptable curve".
    assuming pp is a business and is motivated by profit, they can either balance their catalog of models and new releases competitively, or fail to do so and deal with the costs of excess inventory and wasted production for models that don't sell. Similarly, if brickhouse isn't playable, I'm not buying one. I can spend my money on other factions or more centurions and jacks in the catalog that do work.

    edit: you're not wrong, cygnar has a lot of dead model entries. I think some of that is because we need a caster to turn on lots of our model choices and there are very few competitive caster options these days. protectorate has strong units and jacks and all the casters are fairly similar in power level. Cygnar has lots of meh units and a couple casters that make some units very good - so we can't have nice things. Or no more nice things than we already have.
    Last edited by slinkdawg; 01-12-2017 at 07:15 AM.
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by slinkdawg View Post
    edit: you're not wrong, cygnar has a lot of dead model entries. I think some of that is because we need a caster to turn on lots of our model choices and there are very few competitive caster options these days. protectorate has strong units and jacks and all the casters are fairly similar in power level. Cygnar has lots of meh units and a couple casters that make some units very good - so we can't have nice things. Or no more nice things than we already have.
    This always makes me wonder if it's a function of faction identity that so many of our casters are so support heavy. And the ones who aren't, either do a ton of work personally (stryker2, caine2, epic Haley's) or aren't played that often.

    What is Cygnar faction identity?

    Edit: Triumph does the things Siege wants done without the focus expenditure. And sometimes, I want more heavy magical guns. Then again, I'm not sure what the theme of this thread is anymore.
    Last edited by iratebanana; 01-12-2017 at 07:42 AM.
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  40. #40
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    Perhaps only want to attack Eye of Truth or Protectorate?
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