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  1. #1
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Default Extended Control Squire

    In which order are the modifiers to control range applied when calculating the distance that a Hunter can be allocated focus from a warcaster with a squire?
    Is the effective control range ((Foc*2)*2)+2 as per page 16 of the rule book, or is it ((Foc*2)+2)*2?

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    Destroyer of Worlds sleet01's Avatar
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    For reference, the answer in Mk II.

    And Mk III rules for further reference:

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane Repeater
    While this model's warcaster is within 5" of it, that warcaster's control range is extended 2".
    (from the Squire's card)

    Quote Originally Posted by Extended Control Range
    When checking to see if this model is in its controller's control range, double the range.
    (from the Hunter's card)
    Semper Paratus Apparatus Belli





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    Making sure the answer is the same :-D

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    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleet01 View Post
    For reference, the answer in Mk II.
    With all due respect, MKIII is a different game to MKII
    Perhaps the interaction has shifted more in line with page 16.

    edit:
    Thank you for providing an easy reference though.

    edit 2:
    I can see the reason for assuming that the ruling from MKII could potentially carry over, after all, the wording for both abilities remains mostly unchanged in the switch from MKII to MKIII.
    I personally feel that the rulebook should be the first place people should go to for checking interactions like this and the rulebook does have a system laid out on page 16, but that is for stat changes and control range is not a stat, it is however, derived from a stat.

    edit 3:
    referenced part of page 16 added here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime page 16, Base Stats, Current Stats & Modifiers
    Rules in WARMACHINE can refer to a model’s base stats or to its current stats. A model’s base stats are typically those printed in its stat bar. Some special rules can change the base stat of a model to a specific value, however. Apply this change before applying any other modifiers to the stat. If a model is affected by multiple rules that change a base stat, the base stat becomes the lowest value.


    If the base stats of a model are modified, they are then referred to as the model’s current stats. Unless a rule specifies otherwise, always use a model’s current stats.


    To determine a model’s current stat, start with the base stat and then apply modifiers in the following order.
    1. Apply modifiers that double the stat.
    2. Apply modifiers that halve the stat.
    3. Apply bonuses that add to the stat.
    4. Apply penalties that reduce the stat.

    The result is the model’s current stat. A model’s base and current stats can never be reduced to less than 0.
    Last edited by Spideredd; 01-11-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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    Gramatically (not a word) the focus stat is doubled then you add 2 to that length then you can double that for the hunter's effective control range.

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    to be real clear here Control Range isn't a Stat, it's a derived number of a Stat!! So the CR is increased by 2" while within 5" of the Squire, then when checking to see if a model with Extended Control Range is in it's controller range you double that. There's no stat on the card that says "Control Range" so page 16 doesn't apply.
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    misread - delete
    Last edited by CuLane; 01-10-2017 at 11:36 PM. Reason: misread

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    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FallingAngel View Post
    Gramatically (not a word) the focus stat is doubled then you add 2 to that length then you can double that for the hunter's effective control range.
    You could also argue that the FOC stat is doubled to get Control, then doubled again to get Extended Control and then the Arcane Repeater is applied.

    Neither is more correct than the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light'emup View Post
    to be real clear here Control Range isn't a Stat, it's a derived number of a Stat!! So the CR is increased by 2" while within 5" of the Squire, then when checking to see if a model with Extended Control Range is in it's controller range you double that. There's no stat on the card that says "Control Range" so page 16 doesn't apply.
    It is, as you say, a derived stat which is referenced not just in the rules for control but also in feats and spells. Could this mean that Control Range is an implied stat?

    Just to be clear, I'm not arguing one way or the other, I just think that this interaction is unnecessarily ambiguous.
    Last edited by Spideredd; 01-11-2017 at 05:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spideredd View Post
    You could also argue that the FOC stat is doubled to get Control, then doubled again to get Extended Control and then the Arcane Repeater is applied.

    Neither is more correct than the other.



    It is, as you say, a derived stat which is referenced not just in the rules for control but also in feats and spells. Could this mean that Control Range is an implied stat?

    Just to be clear, I'm not arguing one way or the other, I just think that this interaction is unnecessarily ambiguous.
    I don't think that is just as correct though you're not comparing like things. Control range is a thing. It is derived from the focus stat and has 2"added due to squire. That is control range,a defined thing. Hunter then checks to see if it's in the control range. The control range already exists, it is now doubled for the hunters purpose

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    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuLane View Post
    I don't think that is just as correct though you're not comparing like things. Control range is a thing. It is derived from the focus stat and has 2"added due to squire. That is control range,a defined thing. Hunter then checks to see if it's in the control range. The control range already exists, it is now doubled for the hunters purpose
    Extended control range is very much like control range. It is double the size of control range.

    Control range is defined solely as 'Double the Warcasters FOCUS stat' (or 'Double the Warlock FURY stat', but as Cygnar has no Warlocks, that is a bit moot')
    From the PDF:
    Quote Originally Posted by prime page 69
    Control RangeA model with the Focus Manipulation special rule has a control range, a circular area centered on the model with a radius that extends out from the edge of its base a number of inches equal to twice its current FOCUS. When a special rule changes a model’s current FOCUS, its control range changes accordingly. Some spells and feats use the control range, noted as “CTRL,” as their range or area of effect. A model is always considered to be in its own control range.
    A warjack must be in its battlegroup commander’s control range to power up, to be allocated focus points from the warcaster, or to channel spells.
    This is the only place where Control Range is defined properly in Prime (Everything else just references this passage, or is in the appendix)
    I think that we can agree that Arcane Repeater does not alter the casters FOCUS stat
    What this means is that without a Squire, Extended Control is FOCUS*2*2, but when you add a Squire into the list, the Hunter could check like this:
    Extended Control(Focus*2*2)+Arcane Repeater(2), giving a Hunter under a caster with a Squire (within 5") a 2" greater control range than under one without.
    Last edited by Spideredd; 01-11-2017 at 07:42 AM. Reason: Formating
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    My understanding is that extended control range isn't Focus*2*2, which is why we have the discussion I think. Trying to represent it that way complicates the order of operations the rules want you to invoke.

    Extended control range is (Focus*2) * 2. You need to identify what your current control range is first and then double that

    So (Focus * 2 + 2) * 2 with arcane repeater. What's my current control range? My control range is immediately +2 while within 5" of the squire. Then I double that.

    The squires ability is in effect 100% of the time. The check on extended control isn't applicable until the exact moment your invoking it, so the squires ability has already resolved by then.

    Basically, it's not two values being applied at the same time. They are being applied at different steps.

    That's my understanding of how the rules come to the end result
    Last edited by Nerzule; 01-11-2017 at 08:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerzule View Post
    My understanding is that extended control range isn't Focus*2*2, which is why we have the discussion I think. Trying to represent it that way complicates the order of operations the rules want you to invoke.

    Extended control range is (Focus*2) * 2. You need to identify what your current control range is first and then double that

    So (Focus * 2 + 2) * 2 with arcane repeater. What's my current control range? My control range is immediately +2 while within 5" of the squire. Then I double that.

    The squires ability is in effect 100% of the time. The check on extended control isn't applicable until the exact moment your invoking it, so the squires ability has already resolved by then.

    Basically, it's not two values being applied at the same time. They are being applied at different steps.

    That's my understanding of how the rules come to the end result
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    Just to be persnickity the formula should be ((focus *2)+2) *2.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerzule View Post
    Extended control range is (Focus*2) * 2. You need to identify what your current control range is first and then double that

    So (Focus * 2 + 2) * 2 with arcane repeater. What's my current control range? My control range is immediately +2 while within 5" of the squire. Then I double that.
    This makes sense to me. The first line quoted in particular.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_the_Rat View Post
    Just to be persnickity the formula should be ((focus *2)+2) *2.
    So it would seem, if Nerzule is indeed correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Light'emup View Post
    Can we get the color purple to confirm, check, or just lock this thread please.
    Agreed.
    Once this thread is locked, that'll be the end of this question until MKIV.
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    Destroyer of Worlds solkan's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Spideredd;3780608]With all due respect, MKIII is a different game to MKII
    Perhaps the interaction has shifted more in line with page 16.
    QUOTE]

    I'm confused by this. The Mk II ruling IS in line with page 16, and the premise that you treat 'current values' the same whether it's the current value of a stat or something else. For instance, if you were told to double damage and add two points of damage, you follow page 16 even though damage isn't a stat either.

    Because the two rules are:
    1. Current control range is the control range plus 2", under this condition.
    2. Current control range is double the control range, under this condition.

  16. #16
    Destroyer of Worlds Spideredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solkan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spideredd View Post
    With all due respect, MKIII is a different game to MKII
    Perhaps the interaction has shifted more in line with page 16.
    I'm confused by this. The Mk II ruling IS in line with page 16, and the premise that you treat 'current values' the same whether it's the current value of a stat or something else. For instance, if you were told to double damage and add two points of damage, you follow page 16 even though damage isn't a stat either.

    Because the two rules are:
    1. Current control range is the control range plus 2", under this condition.
    2. Current control range is double the control range, under this condition.
    It was more because you are doubling a value that has been reached by doubling a different value.
    Perhaps the question should more accurately have been: 'At what stage do you apply the bonus for Arcane Repeater? Should it be before you double the distance for Extended Control Range, or afterwards?'
    Quote Originally Posted by Other_Mike View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domo View Post
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