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  1. #1

    Default Feeling left out, a minion player point of view

    Hi everyone,

    First I want to apologize for my english, I am a french player and I don't speak English as well as I would like (but I try !).

    I was a blindwater player during mk2 and really enjoy playing my gators. I tried others armies but I always come back in the swamp.
    I was really happy when PP announced the mk3 release and the end of the pact. I bought all the farrow miniatures and play some games in mk3. Quickly i realize that the game was not balancing as well as I hoped. There are a lot of unplayable (or nearly unplayable things) for us : light gator beasts, blindwater infantry, lot of solo over costed, farrow infantry (except brigands and commandos in theme). But the problem is about a lot of stuff in hordes. That's sad but I can do with that. We have strong list, strong option against the gunline / heavy meta : Rask, Rage, Arkadius, Rask, Barnabas, Rask. Ok, we are able to play and win.

    But there is, for me a lot of things very sad for minion player :

    1/ Lack of news. I understand the "minion special release schedule", so no battlegroup is meah but I can understand. But why only one unit in primal ? Why no new warlock or new beast ? The thing became very sad when I understood that we won't have new toys until all the command book will be release ( so about a year after the mk3 launch), the launch of the new faction and maybe after we will have thème force book. And when some thing is out the normal release schedule, like the journeyman warcaster/warlock, there is nothing for us.
    Our last warlock were in exigence in 2014. With the new things coming (command book and new faction) that's 3 years minimum without a new warlock ! In an evolving game this sounds like a joke. How many caster a cygnar player get in 3 years ?

    2/ I don't have the same options as other player: Gargantua rules seems great in this edition ? We don't have one. Cavalry rules became very efficient ? We don't have à cavalry unit. Character beast are all very great ? Again, no character beast outside lessers warlock. The journeyman ? We have lesser warlock but they all come with beasts.

    #Designspace : With 1 and 2, I imagine there is a lot of designspace for minions, no ?

    3/ Story. All the story are about warmachine (cygnar and mercs often). There are very few things for hordes and nothing at all for minions. In devastation THE thing for the blindwater congregation has happening and then ? Nothing more.

    4/ The new release system is very bad for our faction. I really liked the old system : one year, one warmachine book, one hordes book and everyone have new toys.

    5/ Errata : That was very bad for minions. We paid for solos who are played by other factions. Ok, that's understandable but why PP didn't boost the minions only things ? Like Jaga, lights gators beasts for example ? And the discount on posses don't make them playable.

    Maybe I only see the bad side of the mk3 for minions... but I feel really disappointed, left out and I hope that PP will understand that and give us some news soon. Not only : "great things are coming in the futur, be patient". But something like : Ok, that's a long time for minions so Blindwater theme force book will be release in September with Barnabas 2, Calaban 2, à character beast, a dracodile, one gatormen unit and 2 solos.

  2. #2
    Destroyer of Worlds Malkav13's Avatar
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    Well, they did say that there is a Blindwater Theme Force coming down the pipes soon, so there is that.
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  3. #3
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    Yeah, there's nothing there I disagree with. Missing out on the last Mark II release wave for a Warlock was fine at the time, because pigs badly needed what the Battle Boar and Splatter Boar were offering. But losing that release cycle, the Mark III battlebox release cycle, and only getting the Commandos in the "command book" release cycle (inasmuch as there are clearly delineated release cycles anymore, since their rules won't be in print until the theme book is out they're technically an advanced theme book release cycle unit) is really starting to sting.

    Given that the lists that are consistently giving me the most trouble in Mark III tend to involve cavalry, I'm also feeling the pain on point 2. It doesn't help that I think a decent Gargantuan is what Sturm and Drang really need to get them just that little bit extra to get them fielded.

    And yeah, the story thing. We've always been somewhat kicked to the curb story-wise, pigs were missing from Domination entirely and didn't even have an "arc" or any form of ongoing story until Exigence came out with the Helga/Carver romance-conquest. And of course we got zero payoff for that, with Devastation giving us the climactic final battle but no denouement to actually resolve the plot thread.

    The errata was expected, but frustrating despite it. Lanyssa getting bumped up because the Blackclad equivalent costs an extra point (when it has more offensive output and is possibly overcosted anyway) was annoying because that 3 point bracket is difficult to fill, particularly with models that actually click with the rest of the army. Alten Ashley got triple nerfed, between the combination of Bokurs becoming widely available, Gargantuans becoming immune to his schtick, and going up a point. That seemed a tad excessive. I'm not outright angry about any of it, but it doesn't help when everything else to do with the status of this faction is grating as it is.

    To cap it off, we're not actually a "special release" faction. Or at least we weren't until Mark III. We always received releases in parallel to other factions, frequently getting twice as many Warlocks as well. So being relegated to the bottom of the barrel hurts all the more.

  4. #4
    Destroyer of Worlds Dan from Chicago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azahul View Post
    To cap it off, we're not actually a "special release" faction. Or at least we weren't until Mark III. We always received releases in parallel to other factions, frequently getting twice as many Warlocks as well. So being relegated to the bottom of the barrel hurts all the more.
    It's fine to say that Minions are not Convergence, but I don't think that PP has ever indicated that Minions would be on the same track as the core factions. Mercs, Minions, and Convergence have always been off the track. The only difference has been how much so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan from Chicago View Post
    It's fine to say that Minions are not Convergence, but I don't think that PP has ever indicated that Minions would be on the same track as the core factions. Mercs, Minions, and Convergence have always been off the track. The only difference has been how much so
    We consistently received either the same as other factions or 1-2 releases more (albeit spoiled by the fact that some of those releases couldn't be used by Minion players) over the course of Mark II. Though I think there might have been one year where we received one less release.

    The fact we received different releases to the others was never a big deal to me. I'd rather a good anything that makes it into my lists and changes them than a specific type of release of any kind. That may have skewed my perception, leading me to consider us as on an equal footing with the other factions. Getting a second Warlock in the form of Midas/Rask was better for Minions than any of the Gargantuans were for any of the other Hordes factions, for example, even if Gargantuans was easily Minions' worst release cycle.

    Regardless of the specifics, this is the first time since I started the game that Minions have been receiving a notably lower quantity of new releases.

  6. #6
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin13 View Post
    4/ The new release system is very bad for our faction. I really liked the old system : one year, one warmachine book, one hordes book and everyone have new toys.
    How so? The Gargantuan releases don't really have the appearance of the old system being superior to the new (Nice Mammoth, let me throw some Razor Boars at that).
    I'll take no releases over receiving rules but not models for 3 years, which is what was generated previously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    How so? The Gargantuan releases don't really have the appearance of the old system being superior to the new (Nice Mammoth, let me throw some Razor Boars at that).
    I'll take no releases over receiving rules but not models for 3 years, which is what was generated previously.
    What about "Nice Mammoth, but we got Rask"?

    Every other faction only got one Warlock.

    And have we as a faction had to deal with any spectacularly long delays? I can't think of many more than a few months after the rules.

  8. #8
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azahul View Post
    What about "Nice Mammoth, but we got Rask"?
    He's a nice warlock, however had we not received would we feel it versus the yawning gap felt by players wanting a Garg? Though I guess the "no Garg" lament would be replaced by "No S-ish tier lock".
    Point conceded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azahul View Post
    Every other faction only got one Warlock.
    Once we get into warlock numbers we get into warlock releases total, got quite a lag on that. Though thankfully the bench seems reasonably deep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azahul View Post
    And have we as a faction had to deal with any spectacularly long delays? I can't think of many more than a few months after the rules.
    As a faction? Not that I know of. In this instance, however, generalisation trumps specificity. The old system had multiple models in said situation, and that situation is crap. It hadn't happened to Minion's yet, odds of it happening at some point were high, made even worse when the model is highly anticipated (I.e: Inflictor moreso than the Bombardiers in the relevant situation).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    Once we get into warlock numbers we get into warlock releases total, got quite a lag on that. Though thankfully the bench seems reasonably deep.
    Yeah, a few years ago (honestly, before Helga/Jaga-Jaga released) my personal belief was that Minions were fine for Warlocks for the foreseeable future. At that point I really just wanted more stuff.

    Three release cycles of the main factions getting Warlocks without us though has made it clear that I just couldn't foresee past 2015


    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    As a faction? Not that I know of. In this instance, however, generalisation trumps specificity. The old system had multiple models in said situation, and that situation is crap. It hadn't happened to Minion's yet, odds of it happening at some point were high, made even worse when the model is highly anticipated (I.e: Inflictor moreso than the Bombardiers in the relevant situation).
    Yeah, it could have happened. To be honest though, I am (marginally) more ok with having rules and no models than I am with having no rules or models nor any indication of when we might get some.

  10. #10
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azahul View Post
    Yeah, a few years ago (honestly, before Helga/Jaga-Jaga released) my personal belief was that Minions were fine for Warlocks for the foreseeable future. At that point I really just wanted more stuff.

    Three release cycles of the main factions getting Warlocks without us though has made it clear that I just couldn't foresee past 2015
    I'd blame past-Azahul
    Would you be less inclined toward that if Arkadius was still the main event?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azahul View Post
    Yeah, it could have happened. To be honest though, I am (marginally) more ok with having rules and no models than I am with having no rules or models nor any indication of when we might get some.
    Different strokes, I loathe having the models with no rules on sight, even when the model is trash.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    I'd blame past-Azahul
    Would you be less inclined toward that if Arkadius was still the main event?
    Well, the top of my wishlist would actually be more Warbeasts, particularly ones that work nicely with Arkadius But I'm biased like that.

    That said, it's been long enough that I wouldn't mind something entirely new. Ideally something that might break up my fall-back of Arkadius/Carver pairings and actually force a legitimate choice on me. I've been cycling through all the pig Warlocks to see what falls out, but I keep feeling like I'm handicapping myself whenever I pick someone who isn't Arkadius or Carver...
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    Different strokes, I loathe having the models with no rules on sight, even when the model is trash.
    Haha. I have no problems with rules and no model for a trash model.

  12. #12
    Annihilator PMAvers's Avatar
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    Something I hope with the new release cycle is that we end up seeing more often and better minion releases. Especially with things being field tested.

    Although I do wonder if the new Hordes faction is taking up a lot of the Hordes dev time.

  13. #13
    Destroyer of Worlds Malkav13's Avatar
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    I'd imagine that and the errata have been a major time sink for them.
    QUOTE (poeticruse @ Mar 27 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    So please, think of the goats. Don't demand official answers.
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  14. #14
    Destroyer of Worlds Dan from Chicago's Avatar
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    Entirely possible some of the new faction will be partisan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan from Chicago View Post
    Entirely possible some of the new faction will be partisan
    The new faction isn't a Cyriss like faction ? I think there will be no minions for them and no one of them will be partisan.
    The hope I have now for minion is that our theme force book will be in the first to be release (along mercs and cyriss who are in the same boat). It would be very great if someone of PP staff could give us some information about that. Because another year without minion release would make me stopping the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin13 View Post
    The new faction isn't a Cyriss like faction ? I think there will be no minions for them and no one of them will be partisan.
    The hope I have now for minion is that our theme force book will be in the first to be release (along mercs and cyriss who are in the same boat). It would be very great if someone of PP staff could give us some information about that. Because another year without minion release would make me stopping the game.
    I have a feeling the Gatormen husk alluded to in the rulebook will work for both Minions and the new faction at the very least, and we can probably expect a few more creepy models that work for the new faction, Minions, and one or two main factions to encourage crossover.

    I agree with most of what has been said here. Fortunately, the savage nerfing of so many faction mainstays between the errata and edition change and the complete moratorium on new Minions material and releases is offset by our beefed up warbeasts and the de facto releases in the form of cross pact lists. It just stinks that the latter in no way necessitated the former.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin13 View Post
    The new faction isn't a Cyriss like faction ? I think there will be no minions for them and no one of them will be partisan.
    The hope I have now for minion is that our theme force book will be in the first to be release (along mercs and cyriss who are in the same boat). It would be very great if someone of PP staff could give us some information about that. Because another year without minion release would make me stopping the game.
    They haven't announced yet if the new faction is similar to Retribution or if it's similar to Convergence.

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    I get where the OP is coming from and mostly agree. Playing devil’s advocate, I am ok with PP fixing (for some definitions of fixing) broken factions and meta concerns before we get new models. We did essentially get a new unit in the form of commandos and are supposed to get Valkyries at some point as well. Also, while we did not get a bunch of new releases, the ability to use the entire minion range was almost like getting a huge release cycle in and of itself.
    My larger concern is getting to a meta where infantry is more viable—thus making more models over-all worthwhile.
    The one point I absolutely 100% agree is that PP needs to push minions forward in the fiction more often—especially considering the cliffhanger of the last book.
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    Warrior Zibylla's Avatar
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    Feeling left out as a gator player, the theme forces are out.. no love for gator theme just yet.
    When life gives you lemons: Gurgle gurgle tapeworm

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    Isn't it meant to be in the next NQ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azahul View Post
    Isn't it meant to be in the next NQ?
    I thought the next NQ was Rhulic theme. I don't remember where I heard that so I might be crazy, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    I thought the next NQ was Rhulic theme. I don't remember where I heard that so I might be crazy, though.
    Yes, the Rhulic theme was just released on to war room, since it's going to be in NQ in a few weeks. Blindwater may be a while.

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    Yeah, Mark III for Gators has really been everything I feared Mark III would be for pigs when I heard the pacts were merging.

    My condolences

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    Every faction got a theme force except minion (trolls and menoth have 2 already and the news in their command book this month and last month). Mercs got their third one and that's cool for them because they are a "little faction" like us. That's great for Cyriss to.

    As far as i see, there is absolutely nothing in PP politics or communication to keep minions player (especially blindwater player) to stay in the game.

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    Well, Blindwater maybe. Thornfall feels a looooooot more consistently competitive on all our options, as much as I miss Nature of the Beast. The release drought is wearing on me, yes, and the fluff side genuinely pisses me off, but I am loving the game.

    PP just isn't getting a lot of money from me because they haven't been giving me much I want to buy (besides Bokurs, I now have two Bokurs).

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    Destroyer of Worlds Doktor Grym's Avatar
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    I feel that leaving half of our factions Warlocks in the wind as of today is completely unacceptable. Every faction has a theme force that let's them (take and) play any Warcaster or Warlock except Retribution (non Vyre Warcasters only and how many are House Vyre?) and Minions. In the case of Minions players, leaving FIVE Blindwater casters out to dry, simply put is lame on Privateer Press' part. Even if you play another faction and don't choose to use a theme force with caster X, Y or Z, the option is there.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor Grym View Post
    I feel that leaving half of our factions Warlocks in the wind as of today is completely unacceptable. Every faction has a theme force that let's them (take and) play any Warcaster or Warlock except Retribution (non Vyre Warcasters only and how many are House Vyre?) and Minions.
    Would you have preferred to recieve a Theme force even if it was mechanically poor? There are some factions that aren't exactly wooping with joy at being the theme force collective...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    Would you have preferred to recieve a Theme force even if it was mechanically poor? There are some factions that aren't exactly wooping with joy at being the theme force collective...
    Actually yea, because it would at least be something to try and make work.even if it looks mechanically poor, it was made to for some interaction, for some reason. Maybe it's a bit of trust that PP isn't just making things up, because looking around, most faction might not be whooping, but then again they expected something op, and PP made the stance that really theme forces don't need to be powerful. That was a problem in mk2 since most things were stronger in their theme. Theme forces need to be thematic, so it's fine if it looks bad, but it's based on some cool interaction or models. And even now most factions are getting past doom and gloom and finding that these themes have always at least one good/interesting list that shows it off.

    Even with the thorn fall theme coming out there was doom and gloom for us. It jut wasn't fully what we wanted or thought it'd be, but now look and the Midas gunline is a interesting mixup with one of our less liked casters currently.

    I do feel bad since I do want blindwater to come out sooner rather than later, and this would have been a perfect nice time to put it out, but maybe we can go on hope that good things come for those that wait.

    (Side tangent: I am iffed that we don't have a gargantuan yet, especially with the sea king coming out and it having the perfect rules to be our garg, yet it has 0 synergy with trolls, but that's a seperate issue.)
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    Destroyer of Worlds Doktor Grym's Avatar
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    I can see your point, but even a band-aid of sorts that supplies some form of benefit. I know reviewing the various faction forums, some groups feel they got a short stick, but it's still a stick. Even something that gives a free solo for X points of troops, free upkeeps on turn 1 and a few deep water templates would of been swell.

    KSW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibylla View Post
    Feeling left out as a gator player, the theme forces are out.. no love for gator theme just yet.
    March. No Quarter.

    Get the gumbo ready ... we gonna have a party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PPS_Hungerford View Post
    March. No Quarter.

    Get the gumbo ready ... we gonna have a party.
    My pigs already have one, but it will be cool to have one for the fashion bags as well.
    .
    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PPS_Hungerford View Post
    March. No Quarter.

    Get the gumbo ready ... we gonna have a party.
    Thanks for the answer Mr Hungerford. Can you tease just a little about that theme force ?
    And can we hope some news for minion this year ? ( the theme force in march do not count ! )
    Last edited by Raistlin13; 01-13-2017 at 09:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PPS_Hungerford View Post
    March. No Quarter.

    Get the gumbo ready ... we gonna have a party.
    Hopefully that party will have at least one new warlock cause I'm getting frustrated with the waiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin13 View Post
    Thanks for the answer Mr Hungerford. Can you tease just a little about that theme force ?
    And can we hope some news for minion this year ? ( the theme force in march do not count ! )
    I can't just yet, but hopefully I'll be able to say a bit more about the theme force leading up to it's release (without getting myself in trouble )

    I will say that once the Blindwater theme is out and I can FINALLY play it in public, it is legit the only army I'll be playing throughout 2017 at stores and cons. Of course, internally as a developer I'll be playing everything ... but I'm so freakin excited to play Blindwater for my personal games it's all I want to reach for when making an army with friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikishi View Post
    Hopefully that party will have at least one new warlock cause I'm getting frustrated with the waiting.
    It won't. March is only the Theme Force release in No Quarter. The new models won't be until the official theme force book release, which I can't give a date on.

    That said, I think you'll enjoy the list building possibilities this theme force is going to provide. That's all I can say for now

  36. #36
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    It's good to have a date to hang on to, not that it matters completely for my games anyway. I love the gators and Helga, especially Maelok and Jaga Jaga and they don't "need" a theme force, it's just fun to see how the developtment team stir together things

    But: with the strong colossal/gargantuan game going on in my meta (and more at bigger tournaments like wtc and such) it would be good to at least have the option.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Doktor Grym's Avatar
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    Hungerford,

    Just remember, Gatormen Posse Do Not have access to Pathfinder, and to get use of Blood Thirst you use a Prayer. Now go play NOT nice at the Privateer Press swamps.

    KSW
    Welcome to the Thornwood Bistro, where the weak are killed and eaten; perhaps you'll have em' flame broiled and (un)dead or Blindwater marinated; spicy & chewy. I'd suggest Thornfall smoked & falling off the bone tender. You're going with bloody raw and still screaming. Excellent choice Mr. Ca... AaaHhhhh!

  38. #38
    Conqueror Podo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    British Columbia
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    223

    Default

    I'm okay with not having themes. I'm okay with not having cavalry. I'm okay with having no new warlocks, when it really comes down to it. Hell, I can even deal with the lack of gargantuan.

    But really, we need some LORE. It seems like the only story that is being released is a Cygnar/Mercs circlejerk. I want to hear about some Hordes stuff, even if it is not Minions.
    This is a strange world full of strange people. I hate it. I hate them.

  39. #39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Podo View Post
    I'm okay with not having themes. I'm okay with not having cavalry. I'm okay with having no new warlocks, when it really comes down to it. Hell, I can even deal with the lack of gargantuan.

    But really, we need some LORE. It seems like the only story that is being released is a Cygnar/Mercs circlejerk. I want to hear about some Hordes stuff, even if it is not Minions.
    I'm on the other side. Lore is cool but I want themes, cavalry, warlocks, and gargantuans.

  40. #40
    Combatant Blak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Posts
    9

    Default

    Maybe this gus is good enough for new Croak Warcaster.
    Last edited by Blak; 01-14-2017 at 01:56 AM.

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