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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azuresun View Post
    I know, right?
    Errm - y'all have been reading Po's posts in this thread, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zibylla View Post
    Not nerfing, balancing! I remeber when leaps also went through models with imunity electricity, made it possible to engage models without being fried. Now they just ignore models with imunity and go on to the next model without, why was this changed?
    At a guess, probably because there were units with Electroleap in Mk2 who kept finding their leaps arcing to other members of their unit rather than additional targets rather than enemies, rendering the rule pointless. Stormguard spring to mind, for one example. It was certainly an issue with using Electroleaps in melee, anyway.
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  2. #122
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    Don't change to focus from e-leaps to Nemo3. It's not about a very conditional damage feat, it's that the base rule does too much. It bypasses DEF, LOS, stealth and triggered abilities like vengeance and battle driven this is compounded by models with e-leaps having electrical immunity allowing for pin pointed leaps with no chance of damaging the friendly model.

  3. #123
    Annihilator Rexwrath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jisidro View Post
    Don't change to focus from e-leaps to Nemo3. It's not about a very conditional damage feat, it's that the base rule does too much. It bypasses DEF, LOS, stealth and triggered abilities like vengeance and battle driven this is compounded by models with e-leaps having electrical immunity allowing for pin pointed leaps with no chance of damaging the friendly model.
    And then there are goat riders who have to worry about zapping each other to death....YaY...

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvald View Post
    If eLeap is OP in and of itself then obviously the best Circle list to be running is the following:
    No Mist Riders? For shame! Imagine if they were "brought up" to Storm Lance levels.
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  5. #125
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    E-leaps are fine, lightning generator is fine, Nemo 3 is fine. If you don't like your high def/stealth infantry getting fried, then don't play them into Cygnar! it's really quite simple.

    I don't complain that my Haley 3 cloudwall is negated by eyeless sight in Legion, I just play something else.
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  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetan View Post
    No Mist Riders? For shame! Imagine if they were "brought up" to Storm Lance levels.
    Considered them but they aren't immune to their own lightning which gets messy with so much other eLeap in the army.

  7. #127

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    The "not an attack" clause getting around protective abilities feels more like a rules loophole than proper ruling. You can self sac for main hit but can't for weaker sidehits? Uh huh, okay, I guess. Same for other not attack cases.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal View Post
    The "not an attack" clause getting around protective abilities feels more like a rules loophole than proper ruling. You can self sac for main hit but can't for weaker sidehits? Uh huh, okay, I guess. Same for other not attack cases.
    I wouldn't call it a loophole when it's specifically called out in the electro-leap rule - it's definitely an intended function of electro-leaps to get around things like Self-Sacrifice.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawb3rryPanic View Post
    Nerf one boogeyman (khador jackspam) and people will.just try to invent another, sigh...
    This is the problem with the rapacious calls for nerfs: eventually, your favorite (totally balanced), thing is what is called for. It never ends. Something is always on top of the pack.

    I'm borderline stupefied that there are claims that Nemo3 is problematic.
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  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    E-leaps are fine, lightning generator is fine, Nemo 3 is fine. If you don't like your high def/stealth infantry getting fried, then don't play them into Cygnar! it's really quite simple.
    Love ppl like you. The best source of insight for developers Thats exactly what PP tries to invalidate. If stealth/high def is dealt with so trivialy against shooting oriented army, then thats where the problem starts. I don't mind nemo3, but e-leaps make alot of ppl puke because of how stupidly they operate.
    Last edited by ravenizer; 01-12-2017 at 05:07 AM.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenizer View Post
    Love ppl like you. The best source of insight for developers Thats exactly what PP tries to invalidate. If stealth/high def is dealt with so trivialy against shooting oriented army, then thats where the problem starts. I don't mind nemo3, but e-leaps make alot o ppl puke by nonesense how they operate.
    Not every faction or every army in a faction can trivially deal with High def and stealth models, some cannot actually deal with them at all. Why is it a problem that the anti-ranged tech in the game has counters that are ranged? Why do people have this notion that their anti-ranged tech should not be countered by some ranged stuff in some factions? I feel like I am taking crazy pills when I am in this thread.

    edit: By some peoples logic in this thread, True sight should not exist as it allows a ranged option to counter anti-ranged tech
    Last edited by KhadorGuy09; 01-12-2017 at 05:11 AM.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mod_Haight View Post
    This is the problem with the rapacious calls for nerfs: eventually, your favorite (totally balanced), thing is what is called for. It never ends. Something is always on top of the pack.

    I'm borderline stupefied that there are claims that Nemo3 is problematic.
    I think it's mostly from the Cryxians who feel compelled to take high def easy to kill models like Satyxis Raiders in Mk3. I've face a similar problem with boosted spray spam and it feels like the only in faction warrior units for Cryx that can handle lots of leaping or sprays are Bane Riders and Death Warded Bloodgorgers.

    Neither of those are especially popular, hence the complaints.

  13. #133
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    For what it's worth I don't think there is a problem with electro-leaps in general.

    If there is a problem it might be with Storm Lances being too versatile which means they get slammed into too many lists, saturating the significant Cygnar meta presence with electro-leaps and therefore devaluing single-wound guys. Whether or not Storm Lances are in need of tuning is obviously a hotly contested issue, but if we're looking at causes of single-wound melee dudes being a no-show then the significant playtime of a unit that's decent at ARM-cracking and trivially out-threats and wholesale slaughters single-wound melee models bears mentioning.
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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    Not every faction or every army in a faction can trivially deal with High def and stealth models, some cannot actually deal with them at all. Why is it a problem that the anti-ranged tech in the game has counters that are ranged? Why do people have this notion that their anti-ranged tech should not be countered by some ranged stuff in some factions? I feel like I am taking crazy pills when I am in this thread.

    edit: By some peoples logic in this thread, True sight should not exist as it allows a ranged option to counter anti-ranged tech
    Cryx players are both pretty grumpy about both. True sight has been partially countered by shielding Brutes. Electro-leaps are a bit harder to deal with because they eat Cryx's popular warrior models alive and people feel that Bane Riders and Death Warded Bloodgorgers are not the answer (rightly or wrongly).

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    Not every faction or every army in a faction can trivially deal with High def and stealth models, some cannot actually deal with them at all. Why is it a problem that the anti-ranged tech in the game has counters that are ranged? Why do people have this notion that their anti-ranged tech should not be countered by some ranged stuff in some factions? I feel like I am taking crazy pills when I am in this thread.

    edit: By some peoples logic in this thread, True sight should not exist as it allows a ranged option to counter anti-ranged tech
    The issue is not that those counters exist, but how widely they reach. Consider true sight:

    It counters stealth and clouds. This means that the only solution is to block LOS(unreliable and sometimes impossible) or to grab cover (even less reliable as it doesn't stop the attack from being rolled, and may or may not even exist). Thus, by dint of having a single ability, most tools to avoid getting shot fail or falter. And yes, when models counter their own counters, there's usually an issue somewhere unless those models ay for it not by points, but by some other measure of effect.

    A good example of that is the Cygnar Centurion. One of the most effective and popular counters to armor is relatively cheap weaponmasters. Charge them in and you'll trade up almost every time, but you can't charge a centurion. However, the drawback is that the centurion doesn't get a lot of work done on its own anyway, between often being left behind by the faster faction models and needing a focus to use its signature ability.

    True sight ranged, however, doesn't really come with that kind of an ability offset. You shoot, you shoot at things you normally couldn't, and nothing else.
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  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    The issue is not that those counters exist, but how widely they reach. Consider true sight:

    It counters stealth and clouds. This means that the only solution is to block LOS(unreliable and sometimes impossible) or to grab cover (even less reliable as it doesn't stop the attack from being rolled, and may or may not even exist). Thus, by dint of having a single ability, most tools to avoid getting shot fail or falter. And yes, when models counter their own counters, there's usually an issue somewhere unless those models ay for it not by points, but by some other measure of effect.

    A good example of that is the Cygnar Centurion. One of the most effective and popular counters to armor is relatively cheap weaponmasters. Charge them in and you'll trade up almost every time, but you can't charge a centurion. However, the drawback is that the centurion doesn't get a lot of work done on its own anyway, between often being left behind by the faster faction models and needing a focus to use its signature ability.

    True sight ranged, however, doesn't really come with that kind of an ability offset. You shoot, you shoot at things you normally couldn't, and nothing else.
    True sight and lightning leaps are not without drawbacks. True sight is generally found on lower pow guns (Sloan and Legion being the main exceptions), lightning leaps are unbootable (except Nemo 3) and are either pow 10 or maybe 12 if you have a firefly close enough. If I drop them into a high arm list I will get crushed most likely, I hate making the same point again and again, but just don't drop infantry into lightning lists, drop a higher armour list and laugh while their pow 10s bounce off you
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  17. #137
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigonus View Post
    Errm - y'all have been reading Po's posts in this thread
    If it's some how personally insulting when I say that eleaps are fine and not op and can be played around, but that as an aside hat cygnar steps on other factions themes frequently, I don't know what to tell you.

    Comments about your faction are not personal insults.

  18. #138
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    True sight and lightning leaps are not without drawbacks. True sight is generally found on lower pow guns (Sloan and Legion being the main exceptions), lightning leaps are unbootable (except Nemo 3) and are either pow 10 or maybe 12 if you have a firefly close enough. If I drop them into a high arm list I will get crushed most likely, I hate making the same point again and again, but just don't drop infantry into lightning lists, drop a higher armour list and laugh while their pow 10s bounce off you
    When you look at the level of armor needed to cross the field against Kara or even nemo3, and then you look at what Cryx can actually field, this advice isn't as good as it sounds. It's great advice of khador or whatever though.

    The advice for Cryx is actually "play the coven of lose" as far as I can tell. But that's a solution.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    When you look at the level of armor needed to cross the field against Kara or even nemo3, and then you look at what Cryx can actually field, this advice isn't as good as it sounds. It's great advice of khador or whatever though.

    The advice for Cryx is actually "play the coven of lose" as far as I can tell. But that's a solution.
    I am not saying Cryx is fine into gunlines, they are not, they get boned hard! I am all for making Cryx better, they need it. You don't need to change lightning though to do it.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    True sight and lightning leaps are not without drawbacks. True sight is generally found on lower pow guns (Sloan and Legion being the main exceptions), lightning leaps are unbootable (except Nemo 3) and are either pow 10 or maybe 12 if you have a firefly close enough. If I drop them into a high arm list I will get crushed most likely, I hate making the same point again and again, but just don't drop infantry into lightning lists, drop a higher armour list and laugh while their pow 10s bounce off you
    True Sight is not a gun property, it also allows casting spells and charging through clouds. It has no drawback. Most damage rolls are unboosted, exceptions are charging (which make up a lot of the melee attacks) and attacks by things starting with war-(locks/casters/jacks/beasts)... Boosting e-leaps is a feat lvl effect as shown by Nemo3. By the way, Durant2 also gives his BG True Sight and I hear protectora has access to high power guns.

    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    edit: By some peoples logic in this thread, True sight should not exist as it allows a ranged option to counter anti-ranged tech
    IMO, not as a BG passive bonus on the best shooting faction. I think the point ppl are trying to do in relation to Cygnar shooting countering DEF/Stealth is that if you are a shooting faction that kills hard targets and light anti-shooting targets at a distance the opposition to you becomes really narrow. Like a 14" forest (10" now.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Provengreil View Post
    ... However, the drawback is that the centurion doesn't get a lot of work done on its own anyway, between often being left behind by the faster faction models and needing a focus to use its signature ability.
    The drawback of every single melee piece except most can be charged when they are moving in. Paying a focus to be immune to charge by way of an ability that cannot be ignored is powerfull. As to SPD 4 being a drawback, I think Skorne and Khador would like to speak to you.
    Last edited by jisidro; 01-12-2017 at 06:38 AM.

  21. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    Not masters of highly accurate shooting? I'm pretty sure your assertion is off to a bad start here.

    But, if you want to give examples of higher durability caster-independent modules in other factions for example, I'll start to buy it, but just saying "nope!" doesn't quite cut it as a response to specific examples.

    Especially, I'd like to hear about some factions that do better shooting than Cygnar. There is competition from some casters and lists, sure, but there is very clearly not some other faction that is the better shooting faction. It doesn't worry me if there are two or three top tier shooting factions - Cygnar is in that top tier. That is mastery.

    ... and cygnar gets to be better at things like troop recursion, spell slinging, ghost walking, incorporeal, armor skew, etc than the factions defined by those abilities. but sure. Master of none.
    You can add category if you want but the discussion was : infantry, caster, solo, jack.

    Infantry i say ret, caster i say cryx, solo i say mercs, jack i say khador or mauler but in each section cygnar is present with one or two options.

    If we broaden our horizon then yes, cygnar is the master of hitting with pow10(since mk2), and leap are a representation of it. Nothing more nothing less.
    Considering the pure ranged game, cygnar is among the top with sloan but that is all, h2/h3 are control caster and n3mo is on the rise so i reserve my judgement.

    And YES against cygnar you take less inf and more armor when this wasn't the case ? cygnar was always favored into cryx, but right now coven feat is a great gunline counter.
    against khador you take the anti armor toolboox, against UNA you take unjam...


    Few pointer to counter leap and cygnar in general : (just the thing that bother me when opponent do this to me)

    1) place 2 heavy base to base to soak the leap.

    2) against Leap from friendly keep a gap between first line and second it force the cygnar player to use more model to bounce off.

    3) Spread as much as you can.

    4) Make a 4" ruler and always have it in front of you when playing (it's the most important part) use it as much possible, you can't imagine the damage mitigation.
    My usual cryx opponent started doing this a few month ago and the number of fried raider have greatly reduced !

    5) position shield guard 2" from heavy and in front of the inf. guard the original shot then leap into the heavy.


    Against storm lance :

    1) they are big and their future charge lane is always obvious, don't place inf in 4" of the heavy that going to be charged. (see (4) for the ruler)
    2) When not charging they are nothing special, if you can jam them it's better.
    3) Hard to explain with writing but having hard to hit inf (14+) in front of the heavy charged by the lance cause trouble. the impact attack is not boosted, the assault shot is rat 5 or 7 with laddermore.

    Know the stormlance :
    Assault ruling/nerf : "A model that begins a charge in melee cannot make an Assault ranged attack as part of that charge." A ruling ignored by many. if the activation start in melee there is no assault shot . !!
    Laddermore : Kat is command 9" the +2+2 is model and not models/unit. keep that in mind. while laddermore live cygnar use them as skirmisher, once she's removed from play they are back to charging only.
    The firefly : +2" dmg if target is in 5", 13/16 26 box not that hard to remove. if the pow 12 leap is a real problem for you, it's a prime target. If they commit the FF for a +2, don't ignore it !.
    RAGMAN : kill him period, you must kill him. With a firefly he make leap pow 14 and you don't want this^^. + Cygnar stormlance make a lot of attack, ragman add 6 dmg per lance (impact,assault,melee). even if only 2 lance connect on the jack that +12 dmg.
    but the range of ragman is only 6+3+2+2 max with heavy (unless gibbs). if you are 13.5 of ragman it's better for you. If you want your heavy to survive a charge lance watch the ragman.

    ps : With stormwall the ragman range is 6+3+2+5 that is a lot but that mean being 16" from ragman and 10" from sw. Even if that the case don't let sw apply the debuff on too many target.

  22. #142

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    The only change is like to see is have electro leaps actually count as coming from an attack. Everything else about it is fine.
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  23. #143
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    I am not saying Cryx is fine into gunlines, they are not, they get boned hard! I am all for making Cryx better, they need it. You don't need to change lightning though to do it.
    This is certainly true.

  24. #144

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    One thing eleaps have over other infantry hate that makes it so strong is lack of damage type immunity. Blasts, fire, acid all have a lot of immunites to deal with, so does stationary from freezes, while electric immune infantry is mostly limited to Cygnar itself.

  25. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    When you look at the level of armor needed to cross the field against Kara or even nemo3, and then you look at what Cryx can actually field, this advice isn't as good as it sounds. It's great advice of khador or whatever though.
    You don't really need high ARM to negate electroleaps (except on Nemo's feat turn*). ARM 17-18 is high enough to keep damage manageable once you remove the one or two Fireflies that will be along to buff them. Counter-charging (Seethers/Venethrax?) the electroleap target to push its defense up to 15 in the back (usually going to be Firefly or Stormlance) also helps here. Stormlances don't really want to be shooting at Cryx heavies directly, especially if there's some terrain available.

    *So you're going to lose a couple of heavies to the feat if you can't negate the eleap targets ... that's not so bad for a feat right? I don't know how playable Slayer span with Venethrax is generally, but it seems like it has game into the Nemo3 match-up? I may ask around at the club and see if I can borrow a list to play test.

    RE: Kara, is armour the way to go for Cryx? The five hunter versions at least don't seem to have the output to stop infantry spam.

  26. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by jisidro View Post
    True Sight is not a gun property, it also allows casting spells and charging through clouds. It has no drawback. Most damage rolls are unboosted, exceptions are charging (which make up a lot of the melee attacks) and attacks by things starting with war-(locks/casters/jacks/beasts)... Boosting e-leaps is a feat lvl effect as shown by Nemo3. By the way, Durant2 also gives his BG True Sight and I hear protectora has access to high power guns.
    Durant 2 does nothing for shooting though, and reckoners are expensive to spam. I use the true sight mostly so coudwalls don't deny charges.
    The drawback of every single melee piece except most can be charged when they are moving in. Paying a focus to be immune to charge by way of an ability that cannot be ignored is powerfull. As to SPD 4 being a drawback, I think Skorne and Khador would like to speak to you.
    Got a lot of speed buffs for that speed 4 though? I'm asking, really, because aside from Kraye I legitimately don't know. I was just saying that the mechanical drawbacks counterweight some of the benefits in a way that passive true sight does not.
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  27. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karang029 View Post
    The only change is like to see is have electro leaps actually count as coming from an attack. Everything else about it is fine.
    Agreed. Honestly, I'd like all attacks to count as attacks - it's more intuitive, and removes one of the biggest sources of frustration dealing with those things. At least getting Battle Drive or Vengeance (or Righteous Vengeance) would give you something for all your stuff getting killed. Stops any issue with explaining to new players (and a shocking number of veterans, actually) why some attacks don't trigger their abilities.

  28. #148
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevskii View Post
    You don't really need high ARM to negate electroleaps (except on Nemo's feat turn*). ARM 17-18 is high enough to keep damage manageable once you remove the one or two Fireflies that will be along to buff them. Counter-charging (Seethers/Venethrax?) the electroleap target to push its defense up to 15 in the back (usually going to be Firefly or Stormlance) also helps here. Stormlances don't really want to be shooting at Cryx heavies directly, especially if there's some terrain available.

    *So you're going to lose a couple of heavies to the feat if you can't negate the eleap targets ... that's not so bad for a feat right? I don't know how playable Slayer span with Venethrax is generally, but it seems like it has game into the Nemo3 match-up? I may ask around at the club and see if I can borrow a list to play test.

    RE: Kara, is armour the way to go for Cryx? The five hunter versions at least don't seem to have the output to stop infantry spam.
    If the best you can come up with for Cryx, when specifically trying to play into cygnar is lists that work against one caster but die horribly into the others, that's a problem. Slayer spam is DOA vs Kara (and probably nemo3 dice off 5 leaps kills a *lot* of slayers). Infantry spam is DOA vs nemo.

    Even mk2 Cryx didn't usually require two counter picked lists, eh?

    The real solution is play the coven and that's a bad sign for the game overall. Eleaps aren't the problem though. Overly powerful gunlines and 75% less usable terrain than mk2 is.

  29. #149
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    Cygnar has been getting SPD buffs with Jakes and Maddox beyond those it already had in Kraye and the everpresent and all-buffing Haley2. You can get some extra walk SPD with Darius Crane and Haley3 Reposition upkeep.

  30. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevskii View Post
    ... ARM 17-18 is high enough to keep damage manageable once you remove the one or two Fireflies that will be along to buff them. ...
    Removing lights at more than 14"... Spoken like a true gunline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jisidro View Post
    Cygnar has been getting SPD buffs with Jakes and Maddox beyond those it already had in Kraye and the everpresent and all-buffing Haley2. You can get some extra walk SPD with Darius Crane and Haley3 Reposition upkeep.
    Fair enough. No one in my meta likes any of those aside from kraye though, so I've never seen them. Thanks for the info.
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  32. #152
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    of note, a factor in Cryx disappointment / frustration could be the economic / meta-issue of Cryx staples being insufficient, and "response" lists being things like "(buy and) spam slayers/seethers/bane riders"

  33. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal View Post
    One thing eleaps have over other infantry hate that makes it so strong is lack of damage type immunity. Blasts, fire, acid all have a lot of immunites to deal with, so does stationary from freezes, while electric immune infantry is mostly limited to Cygnar itself.
    Well that's pretty much the case for all factions/elemental abilities, right? What's immune to corrosion outside of Cryx? Assault Commandos, Croak Raiders, Croak Hunter, Slag Troll is all I can think of, and then the Slag Troll's animus can also give a warlock immunity. I imagine the same is true for Cold outside of Khador, probably a couple things in Legion and Trolls (Vayl, Borka, and their pals). Fire I'm less confident on, so let's explore. Nothing I can find in Legion, which is very surprising. I know the Pyre Troll is, and can grant it to a warlock with the animus, and both versions of Horgle are, but I think that's it. Assault Commandos are as well, but overall a lot fewer things than I suspected are immune to Fire (certain I missed some) outside of Protectorate.

    So actually, it looks like immunity to every elemental type is limited overwhelmingly to the faction that specializes in it (most Fire immune stuff is in Protectorate, most Electrical immune stuff is in Cygnar, etc.). Cygnar is not special in that regard.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    of note, a factor in Cryx disappointment / frustration could be the economic / meta-issue of Cryx staples being insufficient, and "response" lists being things like "(buy and) spam slayers/seethers/bane riders"
    Agreed, if the problem is "Cryx has trouble dealing with electro-leaps", I think the problem entirely lies with Cryx, not electro-leaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Dragon View Post
    Well that's pretty much the case for all factions/elemental abilities, right? What's immune to corrosion outside of Cryx? Assault Commandos, Croak Raiders, Croak Hunter, Slag Troll is all I can think of, and then the Slag Troll's animus can also give a warlock immunity. I imagine the same is true for Cold outside of Khador, probably a couple things in Legion and Trolls (Vayl, Borka, and their pals). Fire I'm less confident on, so let's explore. Nothing I can find in Legion, which is very surprising. I know the Pyre Troll is, and can grant it to a warlock with the animus, and both versions of Horgle are, but I think that's it. Assault Commandos are as well, but overall a lot fewer things than I suspected are immune to Fire (certain I missed some) outside of Protectorate.

    So actually, it looks like immunity to every elemental type is limited overwhelmingly to the faction that specializes in it (most Fire immune stuff is in Protectorate, most Electrical immune stuff is in Cygnar, etc.). Cygnar is not special in that regard.




    Agreed, if the problem is "Cryx has trouble dealing with electro-leaps", I think the problem entirely lies with Cryx, not electro-leaps.
    Fun fact: cryx has one corrosion immune model to-wit.

    But let's explore the issue being on the side of cryx and not eleap/Cygnar, because that's got merit:
    How would you, from a perspective outside of the faction, change Cryx to handle electro leaps? What models would you change? How would this be thematic? And, importantly if you add new rules to cards: how would these changes be distinct from the existing rules to justify them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Dragon View Post
    Well that's pretty much the case for all factions/elemental abilities, right? What's immune to corrosion outside of Cryx? Assault Commandos, Croak Raiders, Croak Hunter, Slag Troll is all I can think of, and then the Slag Troll's animus can also give a warlock immunity. I imagine the same is true for Cold outside of Khador, probably a couple things in Legion and Trolls (Vayl, Borka, and their pals). Fire I'm less confident on, so let's explore. Nothing I can find in Legion, which is very surprising. I know the Pyre Troll is, and can grant it to a warlock with the animus, and both versions of Horgle are, but I think that's it. Assault Commandos are as well, but overall a lot fewer things than I suspected are immune to Fire (certain I missed some) outside of Protectorate.

    So actually, it looks like immunity to every elemental type is limited overwhelmingly to the faction that specializes in it (most Fire immune stuff is in Protectorate, most Electrical immune stuff is in Cygnar, etc.). Cygnar is not special in that regard.
    Horgle 2 gives it to his battlegroup and I think certain circle beasts are immune to fire and/or electricity. Gorman don't care about acid or fire.

    I think if some immunities were schanged to resistances, and dampened rather than ignored damage, they could spread these things around.
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    Immunities are a bad mechaniqs. Just awfull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal View Post
    One thing eleaps have over other infantry hate that makes it so strong is lack of damage type immunity. Blasts, fire, acid all have a lot of immunites to deal with, so does stationary from freezes, while electric immune infantry is mostly limited to Cygnar itself.
    1) Circle and Convergence have a fair share of electrical immune models.
    2) To compensate, Cygnar has no immunity at all to fire, acid or blast, so if you fight against Cygnar they also don't have immunities to your models. (and if you are Circle or Convergence, you can have immunities and they don't).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    of note, a factor in Cryx disappointment / frustration could be the economic / meta-issue of Cryx staples being insufficient, and "response" lists being things like "(buy and) spam slayers/seethers/bane riders"
    most of those aren't even answers. boosted pow tens kill seether and slayer arms. But yes, having 90% of the cryx models I had, despite having most of the faction become terrible choices isn't encouraging or seen as a sign that privateer press is handling cryx balance well. It's *almost* as damning as how overpowered they left cryx for all of MK2. Losing only 60% of the models in my other factions seems great in comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jisidro View Post
    Immunities are a bad mechaniqs. Just awfull.
    no, they are not
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    Fun fact: cryx has one corrosion immune model to-wit.

    But let's explore the issue being on the side of cryx and not eleap/Cygnar, because that's got merit:
    How would you, from a perspective outside of the faction, change Cryx to handle electro leaps? What models would you change? How would this be thematic? And, importantly if you add new rules to cards: how would these changes be distinct from the existing rules to justify them?
    Drop the prices on all cryx jacks to reflect their stats and the stated theme of cheap swarm tactics. Drop the prices on mechanithralls to reflect their stats as well. Bring priced the same as winterguard or even krielwarriors is ridiculous at this point. Cryx can keep being garbage into shooting on a per-model basis as long as there are actually enough models that it is OK that you lose a huge number on the way across the table.

    That, or make clouds/stealth do something against all gunlines instead of just some of them. Some shooting from most lists getting through clouds/stealth is fine, but having lists where clouds/stealth do approximately nothing makes that strategy worthless if you are actually trying to win events or just even have fun every game you play.

    Alternatively make terrain guidelines explicitly disallow LOS from one side of the kill box to the other so you can actually deliver infantry between terrain and ghost walk. Major balance implications there, but many people suggest that the game is supposed to be played with a wall of forests across the middle of the table - make that an actual rule and I'd agree that it was effective instead of something that never actually happens.

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