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  1. #1
    Warrior Zibylla's Avatar
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    Default Leaps, so many leaps...

    Now that everyone see how bonkers cool nemo3 can be, can we finally talk about the elephant in the room? Namely how electro leaps and lightning generator should only trigger on enemy models?

    Best regards from someone who plays cygnar.
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  2. #2
    Conqueror
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    Or just restrict them to 2" and keep the interesting interactions these rules offer.

  3. #3
    Warrior Zibylla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hns View Post
    Or just restrict them to 2" and keep the interesting interactions these rules offer.
    Agreed! But it is too open how it is now, espescially with the "run up a firefly and get ionized to death"
    When life gives you lemons: Gurgle gurgle tapeworm

  4. #4
    Conqueror ThirdOrbital's Avatar
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    Or at least make them an attack so defensive abilities can trigger. I really hoped MK3 was going to be the end of "rolls that aren't actually an attack". It doesn't make sense from a gameplay, fluff, or rules streamlining perspective.

  5. #5

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    NOPE!!! Thats what immune to lightning is for.
    It gives storm knights a niche.
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  6. #6
    Conqueror zeezok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrHaystacks View Post
    NOPE!!! Thats what immune to lightning is for.
    It gives storm knights a niche.
    I agree and I think that it makes for interesting and important list dynamics.
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  7. #7
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    I'm tired of things that only trigger by hitting enemy models.
    Nemo: "this weapon has a special trigger. when it impacts with a target, lightning shoots out and arcs into another nearby soldier. We've designed specially grounded armor so the bearer won't be the guy hit."

    King: "that's great. can restrict the trigger so it only works when the weapon impacts a non-cygnaran soldier."

    Nemo: "No. There's no way the weapon could possibly know that, and why would we want to. That's silly."
    Quote Originally Posted by sathoon View Post
    I'm starting to see proteus as the golden retriever/collie cross of the legion beast 'vean' family: he's very loyal if a little soft round the edges at times, likes to herd other dragonspawn, and is always dragging things back to his warlock's army line looking for praise.

  8. #8
    Destroyer of Worlds Ruffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaildin View Post
    I'm tired of things that only trigger by hitting enemy models.
    Nemo: "this weapon has a special trigger. when it impacts with a target, lightning shoots out and arcs into another nearby soldier. We've designed specially grounded armor so the bearer won't be the guy hit."

    King: "that's great. can restrict the trigger so it only works when the weapon impacts a non-cygnaran soldier."

    Nemo: "No. There's no way the weapon could possibly know that, and why would we want to. That's silly."
    Apparently, Electro Leaps also trap souls. How did Nemo do that?

  9. #9
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    As Gun mages have lost true sight, we need to be able to arc lightning from our own models to deal with stealth infantry
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  10. #10

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    My Nemo 3 list is literally the most fun list I've ever played. It isn't crazy competitive, but I have to resist the urge to cackle like a mad scientist. The list just feel SOOO Cygnar. I'm pretty sure this storm knight theme will allow my list, which will be pretty chill.

  11. #11
    Destroyer of Worlds Gaston's Avatar
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    If you are immune to electricity wouldn't that mean you are grounded and would generate no leaps?

    #potstirred

  12. #12
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaston View Post
    If you are immune to electricity wouldn't that mean you are grounded and would generate no leaps?

    #potstirred
    your science has no power here!
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  13. #13
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    That just means the electricity leaps through the ground. So flying models should be immune to electro leaps arcing off of electricity-immune models. That's how it works, right?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaildin View Post
    I'm tired of things that only trigger by hitting enemy models.
    Nemo: "this weapon has a special trigger. when it impacts with a target, lightning shoots out and arcs into another nearby soldier. We've designed specially grounded armor so the bearer won't be the guy hit."

    King: "that's great. can restrict the trigger so it only works when the weapon impacts a non-cygnaran soldier."

    Nemo: "No. There's no way the weapon could possibly know that, and why would we want to. That's silly."
    If the guy is grounded, wouldn't the electricity either not flow at all, or take the fastest ground route(aka, the soldier's own grounding?)
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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibylla View Post
    Now that everyone see how bonkers cool nemo3 can be
    Something important happened? Some big tournament win? Can you share link if so.

  16. #16

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    Nope, being grounded and being "immune" to electricity are different things.
    If you're walking through wet mud and get struck by lightning you'll be a) grounded and b) toast.
    On the other hand if you are jumping up in the air the right moment and then being struck by lightning you'll be a) not grounded and b) still toast.

    In both cases the electrical energy passes through you.

    If anything, grounding yourself makes you more vulnerable. You can hang off an high voltage cord with no issue, just as birds can sit on top of it. As long as no one comes along to poke you with a conductive stick from the ground, grounding you and allowing the energy to pass through you.

    The thing with lightning is that the voltage is THAT high, that even air "becomes conductive".
    What you need to be "immune" is a faraday cage that more or less leads the electrical energy around you so that it never gets into your bodily tissue. A car, a plane a metal cage or a conductive armor does this, regardless of being grounded or not.

  17. #17
    Conqueror Calcifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaston View Post
    If you are immune to electricity wouldn't that mean you are grounded and would generate no leaps?

    #potstirred
    Give this man an immunity
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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibylla View Post
    Now that everyone see how bonkers cool nemo3 can be, can we finally talk about the elephant in the room? Namely how electro leaps and lightning generator should only trigger on enemy models?

    Best regards from someone who plays cygnar.

    I agree the abuse of leaping form your own electricity immune models is as bad as multiple throws steady model, charging own units etc.
    It extends rng too much, and ignore def/los/most protective rules. Until that get a nerf we all might as well play cygnar.

  19. #19
    Destroyer of Worlds blakeh1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdorbital View Post
    or at least make them an attack so defensive abilities can trigger. I really hoped mk3 was going to be the end of "rolls that aren't actually an attack". It doesn't make sense from a gameplay, fluff, or rules streamlining perspective.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneII View Post
    Nope, being grounded and being "immune" to electricity are different things.
    If you're walking through wet mud and get struck by lightning you'll be a) grounded and b) toast.
    On the other hand if you are jumping up in the air the right moment and then being struck by lightning you'll be a) not grounded and b) still toast.

    In both cases the electrical energy passes through you.

    If anything, grounding yourself makes you more vulnerable. You can hang off an high voltage cord with no issue, just as birds can sit on top of it. As long as no one comes along to poke you with a conductive stick from the ground, grounding you and allowing the energy to pass through you.

    The thing with lightning is that the voltage is THAT high, that even air "becomes conductive".
    What you need to be "immune" is a faraday cage that more or less leads the electrical energy around you so that it never gets into your bodily tissue. A car, a plane a metal cage or a conductive armor does this, regardless of being grounded or not.
    I often type quicker than I think. I used "grounded" in my first comment without really thinking it through. Also, this is a setting with mixed sci-fi and fantasy features, techno-babble should be expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by sathoon View Post
    I'm starting to see proteus as the golden retriever/collie cross of the legion beast 'vean' family: he's very loyal if a little soft round the edges at times, likes to herd other dragonspawn, and is always dragging things back to his warlock's army line looking for praise.

  21. #21
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    IMO it's the most broken ability in MK3. It ignores everything but ARM, synergies to absurd levels within the good models in cygnar, bounces of friendlies and has a +2 POW buff on a stick. I await the announced theme list buffing electricity themes. LOL.

    IMO, it needs a tone down. The one I can think of it saying that e-leap only bounces if it hits a model without immunity: Electricity. It still allows for bounces of your stuff to reach unseen models but you cannot do it off Pods, Stormlances, Fireflis, StormWalls, etc.. etc.. etc... It goes well with MK3 change of ignoring electricity immune models for e-leaps.

    Almost forgot, do something about the damm flaggs absorbing e-leaps. It makes no sense. Make it immune, plz.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Sentinel- View Post
    Something important happened? Some big tournament win? Can you share link if so.
    Being competitive and being fun to play against are two different things. I had a game against Nemo3 and after I used my feat to make my entire army Steath I was feeling pretty good about getting my forces into engagement; one Nemo3 feat later, half my army was vaporized with hardly an attack roll being needed. The only defense against it is super armor/wound spam which doesn't lend itself to much variety.

    It's a shame because I admit it's a very flavorful list: Nemo with all the lightning attacks. But the developers have built in so much synergy power in Cygnar that it's really tough to counter it.
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  23. #23
    Annihilator 6_Focus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jisidro View Post
    IMO it's the most broken ability in MK3. It ignores everything but ARM...
    For a POW 10 (occasionally 12) that certainly seems b0rken!

  24. #24

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    Yea! And while we're at it, we should stop AoE attacks from benefitting from continuous effects, too. It has most all of the same strengths electro-leaps have, ignoring defense, targeting friendly models for better application, and one faction has good synergy with it. Heck it even has the potential to last multiple turns, and acid ignores armor to boot!

    That's sarcasm. I think this is a bad idea.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6_Focus View Post
    For a POW 10 (occasionally 12) that certainly seems b0rken!
    It is an very easy answer to any high def low arm infantry/solos/casters/beasts, so they you just need a second list or just rest of list vs high arm. N3mo gives additional dmg to every electricity dmg roll so with pow 16 3d6 stormlances, dynamo, thunderhead etc you can crack high arm and low arm dies to leaps.

    But the worst thing is leaps abuse is not only a N3mo thing. Every caster can get it. Arm buff casters, control casters, shooty casters, everything can get an easy answer to high def low arm removal.
    On other way you have almost no way to protect your infantry/important solos against leaps. Unless you leave them in your deploy...

  26. #26
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    The post above your 6_Focus (#22) ilustrates the, IMO, issue.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by jisidro View Post
    The post above your 6_Focus (#22) ilustrates the, IMO, issue.
    How is that better than nemo don't leap at the stealthed army and get charged to the death ?

  28. #28

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    Because usually with rock, paper, scissors, stealth army should be an answer to ranged focused army. N3mo have option to take Reinhold, remove stealth from heavy target and then leap things around it. Better than for example forcing ravyn/ossyan to take rifles with thane. Leaping everything to death while hitting own model in the back on the other hand is an abuse, at least IMHO.

  29. #29
    Annihilator 6_Focus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YabaBaga View Post
    Being competitive and being fun to play against are two different things. I had a game against Nemo3 and after I used my feat to make my entire army Steath I was feeling pretty good about getting my forces into engagement; one Nemo3 feat later, half my army was vaporized with hardly an attack roll being needed. The only defense against it is super armor/wound spam which doesn't lend itself to much variety.

    It's a shame because I admit it's a very flavorful list: Nemo with all the lightning attacks. But the developers have built in so much synergy power in Cygnar that it's really tough to counter it.
    I'm sorry but it sounds like you were expecting to do the same thing to your opponent, just your opponent came perfectly prepared to do it first. What if they had not been playing any sort of electricity at all and they get alpha'd off the table? Perhaps then we'd be criticizing how brutal mass Stealth is? Come to think of it, it's actually difficult for Cygnar to deal with that amount of Stealth outside of Nemo3 and Sloan.

    I'm not saying Nemo3 or even electro-leaps are bad, they're really good. A month ago we had actual issues like Mad Dogs so it just comes across as almost comedic that electro-leap is now deemed the most broken rule in MK3.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6_Focus View Post
    I'm not saying Nemo3 or even electro-leaps are bad, they're really good. A month ago we had actual issues like Mad Dogs so it just comes across as almost comedic that electro-leap is now deemed the most broken rule in MK3.
    For a lot of people, the most broken thing in the game is the thing that beat them last night. Not that I'm saying that necessarily applies to anyone in this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by sathoon View Post
    I'm starting to see proteus as the golden retriever/collie cross of the legion beast 'vean' family: he's very loyal if a little soft round the edges at times, likes to herd other dragonspawn, and is always dragging things back to his warlock's army line looking for praise.

  31. #31
    Annihilator Nyxu's Avatar
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    If I brought models that are def16 vs shooting and all you have is shooting, you should not be able to trivially clear 14+ models off the board with ranged attacks.
    Nemo3 and a storm strider can lead to rat10(!) that ignores concealment cover and stealth or electroleaps 4" to autohit
    Oh and let's not forget the purge template that procs sustained attack on a ranged weapon.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaston View Post
    If you are immune to electricity wouldn't that mean you are grounded and would generate no leaps?

    #potstirred
    Sure, but all our electricity immune stuff is shooting lighting out it's **** anyway.

    So what looks like bounching an e-leap off a friendly is actually just a really epic.....

    Discharge.

    EDIT: Apparently PP's draconian word censors will make fun of you for misspelling words, but miss perfectly normal curses. My bad.
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  33. #33
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    If I brought models that are def16 vs shooting and all you have is shooting, you should not be able to trivially clear 14+ models off the board with ranged attacks.
    Nemo3 and a storm strider can lead to rat10(!) that ignores concealment cover and stealth or electroleaps 4" to autohit
    Oh and let's not forget the purge template that procs sustained attack on a ranged weapon.
    Oh come on. Let's go through this:
    1) Clearing 14+ DEF16 models off the table trivially is nothing even Cygnar does. Even pre-nerf Caine2 had massive trouble getting to that level of output.
    2) Yes, aiming and running an 18p model up the field can get a caster to RAT10. That's not overpowered. Him ignoring concealment, cover and stealth on anything but the leaps is also the stuff of myths.
    3) Thunderhead's purge threats 11". If you clump your infantry all within 11" of him you have made a mistake you will probably not repeat.

    Are we really at the point where people consider Nemo3 an insurmountable obstacle? He's a perfectly fine B tier caster and thus exactly what this game needs more of.

  34. #34
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    If I brought models that are def16 vs shooting and all you have is shooting, you should not be able to trivially clear 14+ models off the board with ranged attacks.
    Nemo3 and a storm strider can lead to rat10(!) that ignores concealment cover and stealth or electroleaps 4" to autohit
    Oh and let's not forget the purge template that procs sustained attack on a ranged weapon.
    why not? why should your high defence or stealth models not have counters? If you don't like your infantry getting blitz when you face Cygnar, drop another list
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6_Focus View Post
    ... I'm not saying Nemo3 or even electro-leaps are bad, they're really good. A month ago we had actual issues like Mad Dogs so it just comes across as almost comedic that electro-leap is now deemed the most broken rule in MK3. ...
    I believe I said that while Mad Dogs where in play. And Mad Dogs weren't the result of 1 rule, it was a host of rules. They needed fixing, they got obliterated.

    Without knowing the particulars of the exemple with Nemo3 and the stealth army it seems to ilustrate my issue with leaps. He probably ran/walked/assaultd some stuff up within 4" of various enemy models and proceded to target his stuff hitting on very easy hit rolls and bouncing hits to enemy models without risk to his own. This tactic, encouraged by design, bypasses LOS, Stealth, DEF and prevents a lot of effects from triggering like vengeance and battle driven... It reduces enemy stats to ARM.

    Someone above talked about AOEs, the biggest aoe hits stuff 2.5" away from the center of the model hit, e-leaps hit models 4" away from the edge (any 8+" AoEs out there?). E-leaps on a Huge base can hit models inside a 13" bubble (minus 5" in the center taken by the huge base itself.)

    It's not the POW10 on a direct hit that is, IMO, too much it's what actually happens on the table. To make it clear, this is not about Nemo3, this is about the rule itself and it's effect on the table when Pods, Stormlances and Fireflies get together.

  36. #36
    Annihilator Nyxu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    why not? why should your high defence or stealth models not have counters? If you don't like your infantry getting blitz when you face Cygnar, drop another list
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    Theme: No Theme Selected
    75 / 75 Army


    Artificer General Nemo - WJ: +25
    - Storm Chaser Finch
    - Firefly - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8)
    - Dynamo - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17)
    - Thunderhead - PC: 20

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    Stormsmith Storm Tower - Gunner & Grunt: 4


    ---

    GENERATED : 01/11/2017 11:50:59
    BUILD ID : 2034.17-01-07

    The counter to stealth is close combat.
    The counter to conditionally high def is to remove those conditions - force barrier is not effective against spells and melee.

    Storm callers ignore concealment cover and stealth.
    Storm towers electro leap.

    I'm fairly certain people complained about purge in mk2, excarnate or no.

    Oh. And what's the counter to electro leap spam? What list should I drop? Think within the confines of Cryx, which doesn't have arm spam.

  37. #37
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    It reduces enemy stats to ARM.
    There's plenty of stuff that does that. AoEs for example. And there is one thing that works well against all of these: Positioning.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hns View Post
    There's plenty of stuff that does that. AoEs for example. And there is one thing that works well against all of these: Positioning.
    Please demonstrate how to position a 75pt army to "work against electroleaps"

  39. #39

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    I've faced Nemo3 a couple of times with Cryx. I'm usually running multiple infantry units, support solos, and low ARM jacks. Why? Because I want to play how I normally do against him, not try to directly counter him and call it a cheap win. This is the ideal fodder for Nemo3 with his lightning spam, Storm Lances, and Thunderhead - resulting in me losing the first couple of match quickly.

    I'm not going to say him or his electroleaps are anywhere near broken though. I just consider it a normal counter to infantry spam and DEF skew. It falls flat on its face against armor while having very little objective holding power and no assassination game (POW 10s will add up, sure, but they're not going to insta-gib a caster). It's pure attrition. At this point keeping my infantry in multiple waves exactly 4.2" apart has become automatic and isn't really a problem with formations at all (just... be careful about which model you pick for promotion). Sacrificing my low-arm infantry and an arc node or two in order to take control of the center of the board and score a few points just seems normal; this is even easier if he's aiming for that first shot. I'm not saying this is a universal solution, counter, or whatever you want to call it. I'm just saying that this is how I look at it and it doesn't seem like a big deal at all.

    Side Note - Satyxis Raiders apparently CAN'T kill Thunderhead before he blasts them to dust. Type of thing you only try once.
    "Nemo is like the Oprah of Lightning. 'You get some lighting. And you get some lighting. Everyone gets a lightning bolt!"

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jisidro View Post
    It's not the POW10 on a direct hit that is, IMO, too much it's what actually happens on the table. To make it clear, this is not about Nemo3, this is about the rule itself and it's effect on the table when Pods, Stormlances and Fireflies get together.
    This is a good summary
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