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  1. #41
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    Leaps feel fine. They're interesting to use, low enough power that they don't work against a lot of things and whatever runs up be the target typically dies the following turn. Let's leave some flavor in the game.

  2. #42
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post

    The counter to stealth is close combat.
    The counter to conditionally high def is to remove those conditions - force barrier is not effective against spells and melee.
    Did PP tell you that? (if you have a direct line I would like the number). why is close combat the only acceptable counter to stealth?

    The counter to e-leap spam would be to not drop a list with loads of low arm infantry, even Cryx jacks will not melt away to unboosted pow 10s and 12s, and yes Nemo 3 may be an exception here as he can get an additional die, but then maybe you should just accept you are gonna have some bad match ups
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  3. #43
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    Has anyone actually read the fluff novels? Storm Knights regularly use the tactic of shooting engaged troops to arc electricity to the enemy. It's not scientific. But it sure is flavorful.

  4. #44
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    The counter to stealth is close combat.
    The counter to conditionally high def is to remove those conditions - force barrier is not effective against spells and melee.

    Storm callers ignore concealment cover and stealth.
    Storm towers electro leap.

    I'm fairly certain people complained about purge in mk2, excarnate or no.
    1) There are plenty of counters to stealth and that is a good thing. Electro Leap is not the only one, though I agree it is a bit too strong. But none of the models in the list you posted are in any way close to OP. Maybe Dynamo? But he doesn't even have leaps.
    2) The same goes for DEF.
    3) Stormcallers can generate POW10s from 10" away at a crazy RAT of 6. There is a reason nobody plays them. How are they suddenly overpowered?
    4) Storm Towers have Lightning Generator. I am fairly certain nobody would play them if they hadn't. As it stands almost nobody plays them and the reason for that is simple: They are really, really slow. How are they suddenly overpowered?
    5) Having purge on very cheap bile thralls and on a 20p heavy is quite the difference. Just look at other 20p heavies. I repeat myself: Are we really at the point where Thunderhead of all things is considered OP?
    6) Even Cryx has models that do not trivially die to POW10.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by hns View Post
    There's plenty of stuff that does that. AoEs for example. And there is one thing that works well against all of these: Positioning.
    You cannot position to counter 4" leaps coming from models your opponent moves.

    The biggest AOE is 5" from the CENTER of the model hit. E-Leaps jump 4" from the edge of the model hit. This means that an AOE has it's own range +2.5" if he hits a friendly large based target. Na e-leap has own range + base size + 4". On the same large base it's own range +6". The difference is staggering.

    AOE's scatter and I'd like to remind you that POW 10 is from a POW 20 AOE or an AOE with the High-explosive rule. Not a lot of those out there...

  6. #46
    Annihilator Nyxu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    Did PP tell you that? (if you have a direct line I would like the number). why is close combat the only acceptable counter to stealth?

    The counter to e-leap spam would be to not drop a list with loads of low arm infantry, even Cryx jacks will not melt away to unboosted pow 10s and 12s, and yes Nemo 3 may be an exception here as he can get an additional die, but then maybe you should just accept you are gonna have some bad match ups
    It's a defense that only works against attacks sourced from < 5" away. The literal counter to this is to be within 5".
    But hey, more dakka should counter anti-shooting. You do you.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by hns View Post
    1) There are plenty of counters to stealth and that is a good thing. Electro Leap is not the only one, though I agree it is a bit too strong. But none of the models in the list you posted are in any way close to OP. Maybe Dynamo? But he doesn't even have leaps.
    2) The same goes for DEF.
    3) Stormcallers can generate POW10s from 10" away at a crazy RAT of 6. There is a reason nobody plays them. How are they suddenly overpowered?
    4) Storm Towers have Lightning Generator. I am fairly certain nobody would play them if they hadn't. As it stands almost nobody plays them and the reason for that is simple: They are really, really slow. How are they suddenly overpowered?
    5) Having purge on very cheap bile thralls and on a 20p heavy is quite the difference. Just look at other 20p heavies. I repeat myself: Are we really at the point where Thunderhead of all things is considered OP?
    6) Even Cryx has models that do not trivially die to POW10.
    Aiming. Storm strider buff. Sum of parts not individual pieces.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    It's a defense that only works against attacks sourced from < 5" away. The literal counter to this is to be within 5".
    But hey, more dakka should counter anti-shooting. You do you.
    This is untrue because you can hit your own immune (or not) stuff from as far as your gun/spell allows. And, once again, you bypass a lot more stuff than Stealth. E-leaps are not a counter to steath, they are a LOT MORE than that.

  9. #49
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    You cannot position to counter 4" leaps coming from models your opponent moves.
    That's the mistake here. You are correct in that - in most cases - you cannot protect your entire infantry from electro leaps. But you can position in such a way that makes building up a combo and sacrificing own models to kill whatever infantry you left unprotected becomes really unattractive. And that is how it should be. I will agree however that 4" is excessive. 3" or maybe even 2" would be more balanced. Some electro leap models would need balance adjustments to account for that loss though.

  10. #50
    Destroyer of Worlds SnarlyYow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibylla View Post
    Now that everyone see how bonkers cool nemo3 can be, can we finally talk about the elephant in the room? Namely how electro leaps and lightning generator should only trigger on enemy models?

    Best regards from someone who plays cygnar.
    Nemo3 isn't bonkers, nor is there an elephant in the room. Nor is shooting your own models to generate leaps OP. Just stop.
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  11. #51
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    Aiming. Storm strider buff. Sum of parts not individual pieces.
    I have trouble decyphering the meaning of your post. Would you be so kind as to elaborate which part exactly is changed by these points I addressed in an earlier post?

  12. #52
    Annihilator Nyxu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jisidro View Post
    This is untrue because you can hit your own immune (or not) stuff from as far as your gun/spell allows. And, once again, you bypass a lot more stuff than Stealth. E-leaps are not a counter to steath, they are a LOT MORE than that.
    I dont follow. I'm saying that the literal counter to stealth if you don't flat ignore it is to get within 5". I'm not saying eleaps only counter stealth.

  13. #53
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    It's a defense that only works against attacks sourced from < 5" away. The literal counter to this is to be within 5".
    But hey, more dakka should counter anti-shooting. You do you.
    That is one counter, others include true sight and e leaps, I just don't understand why melee is an acceptable counter but ranged counters are not for you? Why is it a bad thing that anti ranged tech is not foolproof against ranged options?
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  14. #54
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    Why is it a bad thing that anti ranged tech is not foolproof against ranged options?
    I completely understand that part of his point. Any given kind of model should not counter its own counters. At least not completely. The other half of the equation however is that no kind of model should be 100% countered by its counters.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by hns View Post
    I have trouble decyphering the meaning of your post. Would you be so kind as to elaborate which part exactly is changed by these points I addressed in an earlier post?
    A storm strider projects a 10" bubble that, if you target an enemy model within it with an electricity based attack, grants +2 to the attack roll.
    Aiming gives a further +2.
    Storm callers and towers become rat 10 if they aim, 8 otherwise.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by hns View Post
    I completely understand that part of his point. Any given kind of model should not counter its own counters. At least not completely. The other half of the equation however is that no kind of model should be 100% countered by its counters.
    Unless it's low arm infantry. /s

  17. #57
    Destroyer of Worlds SnarlyYow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    Aiming. Storm strider buff. Sum of parts not individual pieces.
    The Storm Strider is 18 points.

    This is what I don't understand. Cygnar is a faction that depends on this stuff to succeed. Our infantry is easily killable, slow, lacks abilities like Vengeance, typically doesn't hit hard. What it totally depends on is a hitting a lot of singles, there's no "Home Run" ability in Cygnar, it's batting consistently and not missing attacks.

    N3mo has no threat extenders other than eletroleaps. It is literally his only trick. He has no RAT fixer, no Snipe, no Fire Group. The two jacks he wants push 40 points. His feat is all kinds of Skornergistic with his kit and creates situations where he can't commit to the zone on turn 2. And, like any Cygnar caster, once he loses a jack he loses board presence entirely. If the feat fails, and it certainly can, he doesn't have a lot of tools to make much happen.
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  18. #58

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    So what's the opportunity cost of all this? What are they giving up by focusing so heavily on lightning spam?

    How's their assassination game? Objective holding? Armor cracking? How does it handle heavy terrain of any kind? Can it deal with cloud spam? This was one of the minor points I mentioned earlier; maybe I should have said it louder.
    "Nemo is like the Oprah of Lightning. 'You get some lighting. And you get some lighting. Everyone gets a lightning bolt!"

  19. #59
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    I know what a Storm Strider does. Your point has the following problems:
    1) The target was already within 14" of the storm tower. Not a major issue admittedly.
    2) The Cygnar player just committed an 18p model to get a +2 to hit.
    3) It doesn't not solve the weakness of the storm tower, namely that it runs an amazing 5" and advances 3". That's pretty slow, even for a 14" gun.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by hns View Post
    I know what a Storm Strider does. Your point has the following problems:
    1) The target was already within 14" of the storm tower. Not a major issue admittedly.
    2) The Cygnar player just committed an 18p model to get a +2 to hit.
    3) It doesn't not solve the weakness of the storm tower, namely that it runs an amazing 5" and advances 3". That's pretty slow, even for a 14" gun.
    Include terrain that limits charges, wiping out models within range that would have retaliated, and spreading out to mitigate the amount of damage the ranged alpha can do, and that 18 point model is pretty safely set up.

  21. #61
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    You do know that there is a second player in this game right? That player is you. Of course Nemo3 will steamroll you if the Cygnar player plays perfectly and you make a lot of mistakes. But that is how every game should work. It's nothing special. What you are describing is the Nemo3 player reaching almost unbelievable levels of positioning and synergy and in all honesty if someone pulls that off they deserve that win. We have told you over and over where the weaknesses of the list you posted lie. if you are unwilling to exploit them, that is your loss, not mine.

  22. #62
    Conqueror Mekame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavrae View Post
    So what's the opportunity cost of all this? What are they giving up by focusing so heavily on lightning spam?

    How's their assassination game? Objective holding? Armor cracking? How does it handle heavy terrain of any kind? Can it deal with cloud spam? This was one of the minor points I mentioned earlier; maybe I should have said it louder.
    Another cost: remember that not every cygnaran troop is lightning immune, so they have to be careful about positioning or fry. Try and bring trenchers with nemo and they will cook up like a mechanithral. GMCA? Yeah, stay back.

    While I will admit stuff like the storm lances is good anyway, the other units are... squishy? Stormblades are strong but fragile, and while the silverline is playable with Nemo3, it is mostly because of that synergy.

    Is it fun? Oh yes! Is it good? Sure! Is it Haley2? No way. Too many restrictions.

  23. #63
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    I played Abby 1 into Nemo3 not too long ago. On his second turn, he tried to kill at least two of my 5 ( or so) heavies, but failed when the seraph used hyper-aggressive to engage the T-head after it purged. My opponent then conceded, having no other routers towards winning the game. Granted, this is Legion, not Cryx, and maybe cryx can't pull the tricksy things that Legion can. But it doesn't seem like it takes much to make the strategy fall apart.
    Quote Originally Posted by sathoon View Post
    I'm starting to see proteus as the golden retriever/collie cross of the legion beast 'vean' family: he's very loyal if a little soft round the edges at times, likes to herd other dragonspawn, and is always dragging things back to his warlock's army line looking for praise.

  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jisidro View Post
    You cannot position to counter 4" leaps coming from models your opponent moves.

    The biggest AOE is 5" from the CENTER of the model hit. E-Leaps jump 4" from the edge of the model hit. This means that an AOE has it's own range +2.5" if he hits a friendly large based target. Na e-leap has own range + base size + 4". On the same large base it's own range +6". The difference is staggering.

    AOE's scatter and I'd like to remind you that POW 10 is from a POW 20 AOE or an AOE with the High-explosive rule. Not a lot of those out there...
    You can certainly position to counter eleaps that come from your opponent's models. You can't perfectly shut them down, but you can make it almost impossible to get to critical models. Same goes for lightening generator attacks.

    It can be really really hard to pull off for whole units (like the krielstone) but it certainly is possible. It's more than possible for key models. You have to use hard targets as your lightening rods, and make them closer to eachother and closer to the soft targets than any soft target is to the other soft targets generally. So, like, under some circumstances you have two heavies base to base, then near them, but not in base to base you have your soft targets such that a hit to one soft target goes to the heavy on a leap, but a hit to the heavy goes to the other heavy on the leap. It grounds out all the leaps.

    Then you have to position around running enemy models. So shape the overall lightening grounding formation such that leaps off an enemy generally start going into the heavy targets after only getting a few light targets. Key targets in the back in screened positions are really hard to get to with setups like this.

    eLeaps are good, but they seem to have acceptable amounts of counter play as a general design feature.

    If eLeaps seem to be a problem, it is probably because storm lances are criminally undercosted and over statted or because nemo3 is an outrageously potent gunline that can blow whole armies off the table with his feat. It's not so much an eleap issue as it is a gunline issue where unless you have *massive* armor values across most of your stuff or you randomly lucked into whichever 1 defensive mechanism this particular gunline actually cares about, you're screwed and screwed hard.

    Both of those problems can be fixed without making any changes to the way eLeaps work.

  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavrae View Post
    So what's the opportunity cost of all this? What are they giving up by focusing so heavily on lightning spam?

    How's their assassination game? Objective holding? Armor cracking? How does it handle heavy terrain of any kind? Can it deal with cloud spam? This was one of the minor points I mentioned earlier; maybe I should have said it louder.
    Cygnar is one of the factions that gets to do several other faction's signature things much better than those factions.

    The best ghost walk, debuff, and troop recursion caster isn't in cryx, it's in cygnar.

    The best troops in the game? in cygnar

    Caster independent arm 24 heavies that can't be charged? Those aren't in trolls, those are in cygnar. Trolls top out at arm 21 outside of feats and incredibly lucky terrain placements. But cygnar's theme isn't durability. They just also have better durability feats than trolls on top of having better baseline durability models.

    Caster that can melee harder than butcher? Why not?




    It's easy being blue because the protagonist faction's theme is protagonism, followed by ligtening, shooting, accuracy, etc. They can do anything and have every theme without seeming off to the game devs. Too bad for the other factions that have their identity flatly changed like trolls in MK3 or simply done twice as good by cygnar like MK3 cryx.

  26. #66
    Destroyer of Worlds SnarlyYow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    The best troops in the game? in cygnar
    Oh yes. Everyone is clamoring for Stormguard and Commandos and Stormsmith Grenadiers.

    Cygnar is a faction of solos these days. From it's Markii incarnation where Cygnar's motto was "pay a dwarf to do it" our new motto/playstyle is probably best summed up as "the heroes of Cygnar." Cygnar is a faction of strong solos. My Jakes2 list doesn't have a unit in it at all!
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  27. #67
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    1) what was haley3s feat again? +2 focus to three models for a round? That debuff is an Aura around your main caster and two secondary, 5 box admittedly incorporeal models?

    2) Stormlances are good yes, trenchers are acceptable. What other troops are worth anything?

    3) a single jack that has to pay for it's imprint and get an upkeep from either a caster or journeyman to turn into a decent attrition piece. For 17 points.

    4) a single caster who can easily kill himself trying to pull off toe to toe melee before he even swings.

    It's nice to list all the things hat cygnar can do without mentioning the drawbacks and things they have to play without. Things like weaponmasters or infantry that can survive a turn in melee other than a 20 point calvary unit.

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post

    The best troops in the game? in cygnar
    I damn near dislocated my jaw.

  29. #69
    Conqueror Mekame's Avatar
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    As others have said, Cygnaran cavalry is awesome, sure. And our trenchers are a cool (if expensive) toolbox. But that's just our best, and to be fair we do like our elite pricy troops and solos. Our mean units aren't anything exceptional in the grand scheme.
    Last edited by Mekame; 01-11-2017 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Typo

  30. #70
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    Put StormLancers in the list. Even without a feat bonus I bet it's an upgrade.

  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnarlyYow View Post
    Oh yes. Everyone is clamoring for Stormguard and Commandos and Stormsmith Grenadiers.

    Cygnar is a faction of solos these days. From it's Markii incarnation where Cygnar's motto was "pay a dwarf to do it" our new motto/playstyle is probably best summed up as "the heroes of Cygnar." Cygnar is a faction of strong solos. My Jakes2 list doesn't have a unit in it at all!
    It doesn't matter what a faction's middle/bottom infantry look like. It only matters what their top infantry look like, because those are the only ones that will be taken anyways. I'd gladly trade any infantry unit in either of the factions I play for Storm Lances.

  32. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekame View Post
    As others have said, Cygnaran cavalry is awesome, sure. And our trenchers are a cool (if expensive) toolbox. But that's just our best, and to be fair we do like our elite pricy troops and solos. Our mean units aren't anything exceptional in the grand scheme.
    Best is the only thing that matters in a competitive game where you get to choose what you'll take.

  33. #73
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6_Focus View Post
    I damn near dislocated my jaw.
    List of troops better than stormlances and trenches?

    I think only sentinels have an argument.

    Every faction gets at best one or two good units right now and nothing beats lances at the moment.
    Last edited by Po the Barbarian; 01-11-2017 at 10:40 AM.

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    mhsf, anti mater rifle, sent, sentry, hellmouth,

  35. #75
    Conqueror Sivad's Avatar
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    MHSF???? are we back in mk2?
    Nearly spat my cuppa over my phone!

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    List of troops better than stormlances and trenches?

    I think only sentinels have an argument.

    Every faction gets at best one or two good units right now and nothing beats lances at the moment.
    In no particular order and in my opinion : Ferox, Sentry Stone, Hellmouth. Maybe sentinels, but they are close enough that they are more different than stronger.

    A short list indeed, and full of hard to compare unit. But currently I don't think Stormlance are visibly the best troop ever ; in fact, I think Uhlans and vengers are often just as good. Maybe Nemo 3 with Stormlance is insane, and to be honest it's a bit insane, but Sentry stone with Una, Ferox with Makeda, and Hellmouth in general is insane too.

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zucch10 View Post
    1) what was haley3s feat again? +2 focus to three models for a round? That debuff is an Aura around your main caster and two secondary, 5 box admittedly incorporeal models?
    Ugg, your typically 12 focus caster goes to an 18 focus caster for a turn, what a terrible feat. You can feel the sympathy coming from all the other factions that you have a caster that is baseline 20% more focus most turns than the dang harbinger.

    We're still talking about a caster that does troop recursion, ghost walk, incorporeal, and offensive spell slinging better than anything cryx has, and that's a laundry list of things that once defined cryx. Cryx is now defined by being garbage into gunlines. Some faction theme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zucch10 View Post
    2) Stormlances are good yes, trenchers are acceptable. What other troops are worth anything?
    It doesn't matter. Name another faction with two choices as good? Cryx, the infantry faction, has worse infantry than that. So do trolls, another infantry faction from MK2. So do skorne who were often infantry heavy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zucch10 View Post
    3) a single jack that has to pay for it's imprint and get an upkeep from either a caster or journeyman to turn into a decent attrition piece. For 17 points.
    You say that like it's a bad thing. It's better than almost any other faction can do including factions that used to be defined by durability. Cygnar is casually more durable than they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zucch10 View Post
    4) a single caster who can easily kill himself trying to pull off toe to toe melee before he even swings.
    Sure - he's not the best, but holy crap, cygnar does not stay in it's lane *at all*

    Quote Originally Posted by Zucch10 View Post
    It's nice to list all the things hat cygnar can do without mentioning the drawbacks and things they have to play without. Things like weaponmasters or infantry that can survive a turn in melee other than a 20 point calvary unit.
    You have hammer dwarves. Pretend you don't have access to them all you want, but you have them. Also... no cav unit can take a charge from another cav unit and live. Why should yours?

  38. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohlmann View Post
    In no particular order and in my opinion : Ferox, Sentry Stone, Hellmouth. Maybe sentinels, but they are close enough that they are more different than stronger.

    A short list indeed, and full of hard to compare unit. But currently I don't think Stormlance are visibly the best troop ever ; in fact, I think Uhlans and vengers are often just as good. Maybe Nemo 3 with Stormlance is insane, and to be honest it's a bit insane, but Sentry stone with Una, Ferox with Makeda, and Hellmouth in general is insane too.
    Ok, so at worst, taken from someone arguing against my stance, cygnar's infantry is better than a majority of factions? This includes factions like cryx and trollbloods who were once defined by being infantry-centric factions but who are now worse at infantry than cygnar who is not defined by being focused on infantry. OK.

    I think I've made my point that cygnar isn't paying in the infantry department for it's other options.

  39. #79
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    Part of this may be my inherent distaste for demonizing a single faction. However, if we truly were as powerful as all this relative to the other factions one would think we would be dominating every tournament out there. Granted I don't follow this as much as many but I don't see that being the case from what research I did. So yeah, we have our strengths, some versitility. But so do others it would seem.

  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekame View Post
    Part of this may be my inherent distaste for demonizing a single faction. However, if we truly were as powerful as all this relative to the other factions one would think we would be dominating every tournament out there. Granted I don't follow this as much as many but I don't see that being the case from what research I did. So yeah, we have our strengths, some versitility. But so do others it would seem.
    I'm not saying cygnar is any more powerful than say ret, khador, or circle. I'm saying Cygnar gets away with being better at several other faction's defining traits and abilities.

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