The game is good.The B13 are fineListen to the Storm Chamber
But, if you want to give examples of higher durability caster-independent modules in other factions for example, I'll start to buy it, but just saying "nope!" doesn't quite cut it as a response to specific examples.
Especially, I'd like to hear about some factions that do better shooting than Cygnar. There is competition from some casters and lists, sure, but there is very clearly not some other faction that is the better shooting faction. It doesn't worry me if there are two or three top tier shooting factions - Cygnar is in that top tier. That is mastery.
... and cygnar gets to be better at things like troop recursion, spell slinging, ghost walking, incorporeal, armor skew, etc than the factions defined by those abilities. but sure. Master of none.
Nerf one boogeyman (khador jackspam) and people will.just try to invent another, sigh...
the only thing that bothers me about leaps is that they aren't "attacks". it very clearly comes from you and fries me....why are my exemplars not mad about this? A dude dies and was NOT RFP'd: why no soul?
Choir Kills: 6
There were 2 approaches this thread could have gone.
One where you told people how you lost to electro leaps and asked for tips and tactics to beat them.
The other where you catastrophised, got upset, implied cygnar players as a whole don't use strategy and bring all the anti cygnar Trolls out of the woodwork.
You chose the wrong option, op.
....yeah, IDK what to tell you.
you can't cloudwall: it'll be too far out to get the right angles, or if it's close they'll park a leap node inside it and "gain" LOS that way.
Can't absorb it unless you want to simply not use infantry.
Can't avoid it if you want to play.
Can't stealth it, it doesn't target YOU.
Can't DEF skew it, it just does damage.
Can't ARM through it, you're cryx.
I think your only option with infantry is to lose the first line and work from there, while having secondary tech. Maybe absorb it with a thrall boat? Should take 3 or 4 Eleaps to kill a brute, and mcthralls are pretty cheap and easily lost and replaced. Recursion from an ablative model standpoint didn't change much, IIRC.
Maybe you could use a couple thralls right behind a could to prevent a model from running mostly through, lose those thralls to eleaps, clobber the node, and move up?
Choir Kills: 6
I will say, I was one point of damage shy of killing Nemo in retaliation with feedback. And another player commented that there may have been a venom vector if I had taken a different route that might've changed the odds, but picking up the majority of two units of your premiere "hard to shoot" models that have died to shooting, plus a jack that never actually ate an attack, can be kind of tilting.
That's what it boils down to for me. If I set up for a casual game night 75pt match and can basically say "oh, looks like I'm going to lose this one unless I pull out some Hail Mary assassination on turn 2" because I happened to drop the "wrong" list, it's not fun.
If my Cygnar friend hadn't dropped the game (personal issue) I'd ask for a match against him later to try something: I've been considering doing small triangles b2b separated by 4" - a raid strategy from mmos. Possibly doing so with mechanithralls to soak leaps for another unit or themselves. (Activation issues though. )
Quickly! Ignore the actual tactical advice in the thread and post complaints about the thread. That should help!
If there is additional eleap strategy people should know about it, post about it. Complaining about complaints and acting like people should be begging for your amazing insights is the worst.
Surely I should be providing more advice than you, right?
Complaining about complaining about complaining. We need to go deeper. OwO
It's easy to complain about Lances because of how visible they are, but they're only visible because they're one of two good units in the faction. They have many weaknesses.E-leaps are annoying, but you'll eventually figure out how to deal with them. The real problem isn't the leaps, it's the storm lances. I was surprised they weren't toned down a bit in the last round of changes.
Last edited by Azuresun; 01-11-2017 at 05:02 PM.
Surround yourself with human beings, my dear James. They are easier to fight for than principles.
electroleaps are much easier to deal with than say lightning generator. I can usually make good use of that ability with electromancers if that is what I currently need. Being able to "place" leaps with friendly models can be a little bit frustrating and it would be nice to do away with damage rolls not counting as an attack, but if lances need to lose some of their leaps it is only because with their current output potential and survivability and speed they are massively superior to any other faction choice for Cygnar. Other options in Cygnar should probably be buffed up some and lances might need a slight pull down. Might.
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I mean, if you take casters out of the equation Khador, the Protectorate and Elves leap to mind as better shooters. It is only because swans have a few warcasters that up our shooting game that makes then the commanding shooters. trenchers may be more durable than Khodoran rifles, but they don't have Joe.
Storm Lances and Trenchers are pretty amazing, and Lances may be at the top of the game right now, but other factions seem to be pretty good at their things.
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I mean, if Nemo 3 is OP (he's probably not) then discuss nerfing him all day. But don't just nerf electroleap in general. Cygnar is built to abuse it to the absolute maximum, but stuff like lightning troll and electromancers and Orin Midwinter don't need to be caught in the crossfire with their perfectly reasonable mechanics.
N3mo is not even close to op. That's ridiculous, and honestly nothing is wrong with Eleaps, is it crazy good against certain types of lists? Sure. It has some paper to its scissors, but it gets wrecked by plenty of stuff. It has plenty of weaknesses.
Also, to the op:
1) No, please... Touch me Nemo3 (see avatar) and I'll start to really be pissed off. (Personal honest reaction)
2) Fluff says that is a totally legitimate tactic:
Originally Posted by IntoTheWild (Little Spoiler)
If eLeap is OP in and of itself then obviously the best Circle list to be running is the following:
Kruegar the Stormwrath +28
Storm Raptor -38
Celestial Fulcrum -19
Tharn Ravager Shaman -5
Tharn Ravager Shaman -5
Gallows Grove -2
Gallows Grove -2
Druids of Orboros -12
Druids of Orboros Overseer -4
Druids of Orboros -12
Druids of Orboros Overseer -4
Units that can be immune to lightning to move up and be targeted. Multiple ranged and close combat eLeap generators and a lightning buff from the Storm Raptor.
More than just Cygnar use eLeap. If the synergies in Cygnar are causing issues (and most people don't agree that they are) then look at them rather than the ability as a whole. I haven't heard a single person claiming that Kruegar is OP in MkIII.
I apologize for my lack of empathy earlier. I understand where you (@Nyxu) are coming from. Getting shot off the table without a chance to really do anything about it is probably the worst thing WMH has to offer. That said, I do not think Nemo3 is necessarily one of the more crazy gunline casters. Cryx is just pretty bad into gunlines in general and the errata did nothing to help with that aside from the changes to Joe and Ossyan. But Electro Leaps in particular are still something you can play against with every faction. The trouble here is that it is a lot easier to show (and do) on the tabletop than to explain it in a forum post.
Let's try anyway. I think the major point to understand here is that preventing all EL to your models is not necessary. It is enough to make those EL really unattractive. Let's look at a few examples:
1) Take two tough models (and by that I mean heavies) and place them base to base. Now place infantry around them (preferably so that you don't block your movement next turn) so that they are 1mm away from the heavies and more than 1mm away from each other. It is now impossible to lose more than on infantry model to an EL attack and highly unlikely to lose two to Lightning Generator. You will still lose models on the approach, that is a given, but your losses will be drastically reduced.
2) You run some models (let's say Satyxis) up the field. Your opponent has a Stormwall and a unit of Lances in his list and you can already see his cheeky grin as he takes out a Lightning Pod. So you can calculate the following: Storm Lances threat 19" on their assault shots, a little more than 24" on their EL with a perfectly placed pod. Now should you stay >24" away from those lances? I think that would be a mistake. If you place your Raiders outside of 13" of the Lances; 1 at 18" from the Stormwall, 1 at 21", 1 at 22" and the rest at >22" you probably have optimal positioning. This leaves the Cygnar player with a bunch of bad choices. He can walk the Stormwall up, place a pod, shoot that pod and kill a single Raider. He can trample the Stormwall up, shoot the pod and kill three Raiders. He can ignore the pod entirely and shoot directly at your Raiders with his Lances. He'd need 11s to hit and will probably not do too much. All of these are highly inefficient activations, which is something Cygnar can not afford.
Just a few examples. There's tons more, but time and forum space are limited.
So what has happened when everyone starts talking Nemo3 "out of the blue" is if I can make a guess that one of the more visible and successfull cygnar players around picked up Nemo3 and started writing about him on his blog. The reason he picked up Nemo3 is to counter circle Una+WW combo that most seem to struggle with at the moment.
This seems like a fairly good plan, most circle models don't go above arm 17 and boosted leaps start to hurt a lot. And the birds really hurt from the leaps. So is it impossible for circle to counter it? Ever looked at Krueger2 i mk3? Not sure if I have ever seen that kind of hard counter in the game before, and that is from the faction the list is built for...
I think e-leaps overall can be solved by both listbuilding and play on the table. It is a very strong tolls especially with the ability to leap from your own models but it is not without counters.
What I can agree with from this thread though is the problem with leaps not being attacks. Why do they need to get around self sac, vengence, soulgenerating and so on? I dont see any reason from a balance or fluff perspctive for those interaction. They are unintuitive, hard to understand and increases complexity for no reason.
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Nemo3 thinks Krueger2 is OP xDMore than just Cygnar use eLeap. If the synergies in Cygnar are causing issues (and most people don't agree that they are) then look at them rather than the ability as a whole. I haven't heard a single person claiming that Kruegar is OP in MkIII.
And in above example, remember that the Lances cannot assault the pod, as they cannot charge a friendly model. So the Leap range on friendly models is 16" + base + 4"
So, in short: leaping was perfectly fine in mk2, now they need a tuning of some sort (I think, and some others. Not everyone but clearly there is dissagrement to how they should be) Many in my meta played caine2 for quite a long time, now some think he is unplayable (I don't) and jumped the gun to Nemo3, and with no much spotting of him until now I think we are going to see more of him in the time to come.
There is also a lot that don't "go with the fluff" but we could still "go with it" if leaps also go through models with imunity electricity.
When life gives you lemons: Gurgle gurgle tapeworm
Honestly I've seen the electroleap ignoring electrical immune models hurt just as much as it helps. Lanyssa moves up to tag her target, and winds up surrounded with lightning guys? Great. Ez to get my leaps on her.
Again, if your problem is Nemo 3, discuss Nemo 3. Not a mechanic that reaches across basically the entire game, just because the MOST ELECTRICAL WARCASTER MASTER OF LIGHTNING takes it up to 11.