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  1. #201
    Annihilator Nyxu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    Sadly I don't have the cash monies for that. I appreciate Cryx are in a tough spot at the moment, the errata help a bit, but probably nowhere near enough. Feel free to dismiss me as a condescending Cygnar player who has it all, who does not understand the problems Cryx face, I however play regularly against a very good Cryx player, and they still have plenty of answers and ask some tough questions. Getting frustrated about bringing a counter, and then that counter being countered by something else is just part and parcel of this game, there is no silver bullet, no panacea, no catch all list, and that goes for every faction, it is just something you have to accept and just try and make what you have work the best it can.
    You're at least trying to have a conversation. Not writing you off, just snapping back at the unhelpful "well don't play cryx" - if this was vassal and swapping factions wasn't going to cost me cash I don't have, yea I'd be playing just about anything. But there's a sunk cost fallacy with a hint of pride and loyalty dug real deep in my heel.

    On topic, I'm still not fully convinced that countercharging is the best response to firefly, simply because it does require the cygnar player to place firefly within 5" of a priority target and 6" from a Seether with a clear path. Yes, a well positioned counterattack that eats the 20pt Lance and protects the priority target that the firefly was lining up to hit (assuming it was the Lances that were going to utilize firefly and not Nemo or otherwise. ) Is a good trade, and it's a deterrent insofar as a canny player won't take unfavorable trades, but I suppose I'm giving too much credit to the cygnar player (assuming near perfect play) and not enough to myself (I don't see myself as a particularly strong player. )
    Last edited by Nyxu; 01-13-2017 at 07:31 AM.

  2. #202
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    You're at least trying to have a conversation. Not writing you off, just snapping back at the unhelpful "well don't play cryx" - if this was vassal and swapping factions wasn't going to cost me cash I don't have, yea I'd be playing just about anything. But there's a sunk cost fallacy with a hint of pride and loyalty dug real deep in my heel.

    On topic, I'm still not fully convinced that countercharging is the best response to firefly, simply because it does require the cygnar player to place firefly within 6" of a priority target with a clear path. Yes, a well positioned counterattack that eats the 20pt Lance and protects the priority target that the firefly was lining up to hit (assuming it was the Lances that were going to utilize firefly and not Nemo or otherwise. ) Is a good trade, and it's a deterrent insofar as a canny player won't take unfavorable trades, but I suppose I'm giving too much credit to the cygnar player (assuming near perfect play) and not enough to myself (I don't see myself as a particularly strong player. )
    Part of the strength of countercharge is not actually getting to countercharge, it is forcing your opponent to play around it.

    another thing you could do is put up a cloud wall using Gaspy 2 or gunslingers, and then sit your seethers behind it. you can position it so that if a firefly wanted to get within 4" of a model to leap to, it would then have to come far enough into the clouds for you to be able to countercharge it and not have the Seether enter the cloud itself, it then cannot be shot or charged directly in retaliation, but is now engaging the Firefly
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEoJoe View Post
    Is that so? So Cygnar could never shoot their own guys in MKI?
    As I recall, the strategy in MkI was to put a jack or other relatively hard target that could survive being hit a few times. Circle did it more, as they could bounce lightning off of the shifting stones.
    Quote Originally Posted by sathoon View Post
    I'm starting to see proteus as the golden retriever/collie cross of the legion beast 'vean' family: he's very loyal if a little soft round the edges at times, likes to herd other dragonspawn, and is always dragging things back to his warlock's army line looking for praise.

  4. #204
    Destroyer of Worlds Po the Barbarian's Avatar
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    Why does a firefly care about getting counter charged? It's still in position to buff the leaps and was going to die next turn most of the time anyway. Getting a free hit ahead of time is nice, but doesn't really counter eleap in anyway.

  5. #205
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Po the Barbarian View Post
    Why does a firefly care about getting counter charged? It's still in position to buff the leaps and was going to die next turn most of the time anyway. Getting a free hit ahead of time is nice, but doesn't really counter eleap in anyway.
    Two reasons, it is now effectively def 15 against whatever is trying to shoot it in the back, so Lances even with Laddermore need 8s to hit, rather than 4s. Also whatever charged it will eat up all the e-leaps and the first of the lightning generator bounces each time, which if it is a Seether will admittedly be dice off 5, so will do damage, but it is sparing your other infantry, which was the whole point
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    Two reasons, it is now effectively def 15 against whatever is trying to shoot it in the back, so Lances even with Laddermore need 8s to hit, rather than 4s.
    Flare him, that is what you do first.
    When life gives you lemons: Gurgle gurgle tapeworm

  7. #207
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibylla View Post
    Flare him, that is what you do first.
    so that's one less GMCA shooting through the clouds or at your stealth infantry, thats progress, and the Lances still need 6s, they might miss a few
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  8. #208
    Annihilator Nyxu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    Part of the strength of countercharge is not actually getting to countercharge, it is forcing your opponent to play around it.

    another thing you could do is put up a cloud wall using Gaspy 2 or gunslingers, and then sit your seethers behind it. you can position it so that if a firefly wanted to get within 4" of a model to leap to, it would then have to come far enough into the clouds for you to be able to countercharge it and not have the Seether enter the cloud itself, it then cannot be shot or charged directly in retaliation, but is now engaging the Firefly
    The blood wall is definitely good, but you only really get one or two (terrain and coven feat help here to make it last), but that's generally considered an expensive module. Gaspy2 is only just swinging back into maybe favor with the ability to place more than one cloud. Don't have a mk3 opinion on him as a caster.

    Also, venethrax stalkers + iron Lich overseether gives storm Lance , firefly , etc fits. This I know is a good option if youre careful with the ilo

    Re flare: this kind of implies that the plan was to eat the charge to kill the seether, which is an option. (I'd personally run to engage seether with something cheap if at all possible ) also, missed shots roll against def 12+4 to hit seether since melee.

  9. #209
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    The blood wall is definitely good, but you only really get one or two (terrain and coven feat help here to make it last), but that's generally considered an expensive module. Gaspy2 is only just swinging back into maybe favor with the ability to place more than one cloud. Don't have a mk3 opinion on him as a caster.

    Also, venethrax stalkers + iron Lich overseether gives storm Lance , firefly , etc fits. This I know is a good option if youre careful with the ilo

    Re flare: this kind of implies that the plan was to eat the charge to kill the seether, which is an option. (I'd personally run to engage seether with something cheap if at all possible ) also, missed shots roll against def 12+4 to hit seether since melee.
    Yes the cloud wall is not free, but you can use some cheap dross like carrion thralls or even blood witches, I played a game against Gaspy 2 with a unit of Gunslingers, 3 clouds from Gaspy and 3 from the Slingers provided complete cover for his entire army. If I played Cryx I would play Gaspy 2.

    yes you can run something to engage the seether first, but we are now adding layers of complexity to the opponents plan, and what if you have 2 Seethers covering each other? also in the example I described above, the Seether is engagaing the Firefly but behind the cloud, so unless Lances, Storm Towers and Striders now have True sight, the shots that miss the Firefly automatically miss you
    Check out my Youtube channel for my battle reports and other Khador goodness!

  10. #210
    Annihilator Nyxu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    Yes the cloud wall is not free, but you can use some cheap dross like carrion thralls or even blood witches, I played a game against Gaspy 2 with a unit of Gunslingers, 3 clouds from Gaspy and 3 from the Slingers provided complete cover for his entire army. If I played Cryx I would play Gaspy 2.

    yes you can run something to engage the seether first, but we are now adding layers of complexity to the opponents plan, and what if you have 2 Seethers covering each other? also in the example I described above, the Seether is engagaing the Firefly but behind the cloud, so unless Lances, Storm Towers and Striders now have True sight, the shots that miss the Firefly automatically miss you
    We are both getting to the point where we are trying to add complexity while avoiding complexity added by the other party. This is where theory machine breaks down, sadly.
    I'll have to try gaspy2 with the gunslingers and birds later.

  11. #211
    Destroyer of Worlds KhadorGuy09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxu View Post
    We are both getting to the point where we are trying to add complexity while avoiding complexity added by the other party. This is where theory machine breaks down, sadly.
    I'll have to try gaspy2 with the gunslingers and birds later.
    Fair enough, hope it goes well and that you start to enjoy Cryx again
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  12. #212
    Annihilator Nyxu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhadorGuy09 View Post
    Fair enough, hope it goes well and that you start to enjoy Cryx again
    Thank you. o7

  13. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by YabaBaga View Post
    But the developers have built in so much synergy power in Cygnar that it's really tough to counter it.
    This (which doesnt only apply to e-leaps).
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