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Thread: Cryx

  1. #1
    Conqueror
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    Default Cryx

    Hey guys

    Been away from the game for 6 months and wondering how is it all going?
    Everything i read is that Cryx are just not competitive any more, is it as bad as it seems?

    I played a few games into MK3 when it came out against my regular opponent (Menoth) we used to have close games but he started destroying me and i just didnt
    seem to have good answers in factions.

    Thanks in advance

  2. #2

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    There are some who preach doom gloom and salt. There are some who are in it for the faction. I believe we are in fact weaker than other factions but we can still throw a good punch. The game is still going to be dependent on who is the better player.

    What are you running against Menoth? Who are you running against?
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  3. #3
    Zombie Annihilator The Horror's Avatar
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    Yes we're a bottom 3 faction now with Skorne & Convergence. No, we're not uncompetitive. We do have some competitive options, but the faction overall is in a bad place. As for how to help, it would help if we knew what you were up against. Protectorate is one of the factions with a wide pool of playable models, and the things you need vary depending on what you're up against. Amon, High Reclaimer, and Severious all play quite different games. Let us know what you're having trouble with, because we can't really offer any good advice based on what you've told us.

  4. #4
    Destroyer of Worlds JDAntoine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blythy View Post
    Been away from the game for 6 months and wondering how is it all going?

    Everything i read is that Cryx are just not competitive any more, is it as bad as it seems?
    My opinion, from a non-Cryx player even.

    Cryx has a handful of tools to influence the meta with, they boil down to 3-4 Warcasters, 1-2 Units, 1-2 Solos and maby something extra if your looking for a 'different' Cryx list.
    The result of that is that Cryx is not doing exceptionally well anywhere. You can bring Cryx to a tournament nowadays but you'll be up for a lot of rough matches, more as some of the other factions such as Cygnar, RoS, Khador, you name it really. What The Horror said about being bottom Tier is certainly true (altough I dont know if CoC is actually part of it, I feel it's not).

    So my conclusion is that it is indeed as bad as it seems. There are 5 points that keep Cryx back nowadays and while some of these should certainly be 'restrained' others could easily be removed to just give Cryx the bump it deserves. By cross comparison and other faction options I see the following issues:

    1. Warcasters, Cryx has enemy upkeeps who remained at cost 3. This wasn't a problem until Spell Slave changed. I personally dont think old Spell Slave should return but I do believe that the consequence of Mk2 Spell Slave dissapearing should have been that some enemy Upkeeps should have been put to Cost 2, where the most of them now are Cost 3.
    The prime reason for this is that by other faction comparison you now often pay 4 for your Upkeep while your opponent can brush it's effect away for 2.
    Example Khador vs Cryx: Cryx player casts Parasite/Calamaty onto a unit, I cast Iron Flesh onto the same unit, net result is that you paid 4 focus to create -1 ARM on the unit and +1 ARM for the Warcaster or -2 DEF, that's just not too relevant.

    Now there could have been several factors to migate this 'cost'/'strain' such as including a little more WJP or having more rules to interact with your units so that they could remain, such as better friendly Upkeeps. However both WJP and friendly Upkeeps are not that often found in Cryx.

    2. Warjacks (Light and Heavy). In addition to point 1 it's important to see that Cryx' WJP average comes out slightly below 27 points. With this in mind you'd think that in the general sence Cryx' Warjacks would be 'very good' as in Khador a comparable WJP average is found (slightly above 27). This however is also not the case.
    To keep a long story short, Cryx' Warjacks are just as regular as they come. Certain Lights are still only one-dimensional and while they are cheaper by comparison in Mk 2, they are also recieve worse stats where other faction Warjacks recieved better stats for the same cost reduction.

    For some cross faction comparisons, just compair the Slayer to a Marauder or Nightwretch to Dervish. I'm not saying they should be the same, but they are on such different levels that it feels very off to me.

    3. Units (Elite costs for mediocre stats) This one is very simple. There is one unit who's capable of really doing it's job for it's cost (thus likely being slightly too good) Satyxis Raiders but that's it.

    PrivateerPress showed some iniative with the latest Errata but it just doesn't remove the costs involved to make something work out to comparable levels of other factions. For sure AD and Shield Guard are good abilities but they feel very odd on Mechanithralls. The same applies for Bane Thralls too, Tough is excellent to put onto them but 23 points is massive. I think every Cryx player worth it's salt would gladly trade the mini-Feat for a good point cost reduction. By large because for every unit you intend to include you also 'hand in' a solo. Add that to your 27 WJP average and not much is left to support these units.

    4. In addition to 3, Cryx is still unable to Swarm the board effectively. Last year's insider gave an indication where they wanted to go with Cryx but this indication was never met. There is no Cryx 'cheap stuff till you die' list that can even remotely compete to that with Cephalyx or Mercs. Which is odd. Even Khador to my knowledge does it better when WGI spam is the plan.

    Infantry in general is allready in a rough spot but if factions like Circle, PoM, Legion and even Cygnar can 'ressurect' their stuff better as Cryx does there is something very odd going on within the design of the pieces that should actually be able to do it. Remember Asphyxious 2 can indeed bring back more guys on average but the guys you want for him still come in a 23 point module. Such costs don't allow for swarms.

    5. Intended design mentioned that Cryx' Warcasters should be potent Warcasters with dark lethal magic. As we speak Zerkova 1 is a Warcaster Cryx could have needed and even she isn't part of the utmost top of the metagame. Asphyxious 2 still is very much below her in his options...

    By comparison most Cryx Warcasters arn't actually that potent or actually have such dark lethal magic that it cannot be overcome with upkeeps of the opponent.

    Overall speaking you can play Cryx but because of all the small add ups from the above it very much feels like your playing 6-10 points behind and that matters a lot on the higher levels.
    Cryx still has a strong set of Solo's but since the Warjack/Warbeast cost reduction many of them in other factions are directly competing with Lights. Even in Khador we have Solos at the same cost level as Warjacks and that isn't really where I believe you want Solo pieces to be.
    Leading to my conclusions being: Warcasters, Warjacks, Units, Spells and Costs all need a re-evaluation in Cryx. They arn't massively off the norm but all are roughly -1/2 cost off the norm.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDAntoine View Post
    My opinion, from a non-Cryx player even.

    .
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    Leading to my conclusions being: Warcasters, Warjacks, Units, Spells and Costs all need a re-evaluation in Cryx. They arn't massively off the norm but all are roughly -1/2 cost off the norm.
    THIS is so sad and true...

  6. #6
    Destroyer of Worlds BarskeMannen's Avatar
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    Currently competitive Cryx is dominated by Witch Coven and War Witch Deneghra. That pairing is doing quite well for itself in tournaments - you still see Cryx placing quite a bit - but outside of it the faction will start to feel restrictive largely because of its poor warjack stable in an edition that has pushed better, more efficient battlegroups as the major boon to Warmachine factions.
    My tin dudes can take your tin dudes.

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  7. #7

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    I'm not a Cryx player (yet), but the biggest weakness in Cryx is the flavour. I don't mean the fluff; I mean that the forums are too damn salty
    Seriously though, the faction suffers from the fact that shooting is very powerful and that the factions that shoot well are RAT: good, before aiming. Cryx jacks try to survive with DEF, but unless you're into Khador or Skorne (and even then, oftentimes), it's just too easy to hit DEF 13.
    Then there's the idea of infantry spam, which just doesn't work (excepting Cephalyx). They are simply too easy to remove, and recursion works too slowly and too expensively in this faction. However, if recursion worked more cheaply and/or more quickly, it could be too powerful in other factions. *shrug*

    That being said, Cryx jacks are good. They are fast, and they (can) hit hard enough (with debuff spells/abilities). Some are a touch overcosted, including one that will never change, due to being in the battle box, but that's true of every faction. Except Ret.
    The lights are light, but are priced as such. And while the 'ripper does nothing but arc, the others have uses. Single-use, but cheap.
    Seriously Casual Khanadian.

  8. #8

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    Cryx suffers from the triple blow of being intentionally weakened a LOT due to its MK1+MK2 dominance, the new Meta being an automatical counter to its preferred (and really only) approach to the game, and several core rules being changed which hurts cryx more than others (premeasuring really helps out natural enemy, not powerattacking our own models reduces our yanky assassinations, and spell slave nerf hurts us more than pretty much anyone else).

    One of these we could have taken, two we might have weathered, but all three in concert means you play down 10 pts, into a hostile meta consisting of counters, with a plan so old and well-known everyone is aware of it, and less tricks up your sleeve. I play several factions competitively, and if I get a cryx opponent I am quite glad nowadays, because the faction became very easy to read and counter.

    The reason why WC + Denny is successful is that they have hard mechanics dealing with the massive weaknesses of the faction, turning it into an actual game. As stupid as it sounds, but especially the witch coven is brokenly overpowered, and only the fact its a cryx caster prevents it from being an issue.

  9. #9
    Destroyer of Worlds Avanice's Avatar
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    Right now Cryx seems developed around our staple casters Skarre 1 , Denny 1, Witch Coven.

    Other casters are solid such as Scaverous, Venethrax, Terminus and Gaspy 1 & 3 but casters aren't really the problem as those have always been solid.

    Instead the problem with Cryx is that we were not modified ENOUGH during Mk3 shift. We were still written pretty much the same as mk2 only weaker like that somehow was the way to go since we were strong. Instead what it left us with is something balanced but boring. Keeping the same faction metrics but turning off all the things we loved about the models is one thing but then to combine that with no longer being able to cycle upkeeps a situation that cripples Cryx more than any other faction in the game. and boosting magic attack skill of solos across all other factions while ours weakened just left Cryx in this pitifully boring place that is only using 20-35% of the faction right now competitively AND casually.

    So many factions think we are complaining about power, well I can't speak for everyone but I would be fine being bottom 3 so long as I liked the mechanics of the faction But this was too much a divorce from our love of infantry, debuffs and synergies and despite what people will think we don't want buffs we want thematics and faction identity. As A PGer if I am having a hard time explaining how Cryx works and it's all I play ... you know Its in a weird place to actually play.
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  10. #10
    Annihilator New Guy 17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BubblezCJ View Post
    Some are a touch overcosted, including one that will never change, due to being in the battle box, but that's true of every faction. Except Ret.
    As a Ret player that has looked at going Cryx off and on, I'm curious what you mean.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avanice View Post
    So many factions think we are complaining about power, well I can't speak for everyone but I would be fine being bottom 3 so long as I liked the mechanics of the faction But this was too much a divorce from our love of infantry, debuffs and synergies and despite what people will think we don't want buffs we want thematics and faction identity. As A PGer if I am having a hard time explaining how Cryx works and it's all I play ... you know Its in a weird place to actually play.
    I think that this is a complicated issue, as one of the reasons we are only using such a small percentage of our options is that the others do not perfrom as well. My ideal situation is that there are multiple competitive builds for each army that are roughly balanced to a similar power level. This is a highly competitive game and even my casual meta really optimise their lists. So, it is either take what is most powerful and have a tough game or take weaker options and get wiped off the board.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Guy 17 View Post
    As a Ret player that has looked at going Cryx off and on, I'm curious what you mean.
    I meant that every faction has jacks that are a point or two too expensive. This is probably also considered to be true in Ret, but I think that the elves have probably the fairest prices in Warmachine.
    Also that one of the models considered overpriced in Cryx (the Reaper) is in the battlebox, and will therefore never be discounted. It wouldn't make sense to change the battlebox models, as the boxes still have cards. Changing the price would invalidate those cards and confuse new players, undermining the point of the box.

    To relate this to the topic, I still think the battlebox is phenomenal value, a good (not great, but good) caster, a discount on perfectly functional jacks, and a paper copy of the rules. That's something that changed, right?
    Seriously Casual Khanadian.

  13. #13
    Annihilator New Guy 17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BubblezCJ View Post
    I meant that every faction has jacks that are a point or two too expensive. This is probably also considered to be true in Ret, but I think that the elves have probably the fairest prices in Warmachine.
    Also that one of the models considered overpriced in Cryx (the Reaper) is in the battlebox, and will therefore never be discounted. It wouldn't make sense to change the battlebox models, as the boxes still have cards. Changing the price would invalidate those cards and confuse new players, undermining the point of the box.

    To relate this to the topic, I still think the battlebox is phenomenal value, a good (not great, but good) caster, a discount on perfectly functional jacks, and a paper copy of the rules. That's something that changed, right?
    Gotcha. I would agree that Ret jacks are probably priced fairly well, but most people playing the faction would kill for a cheap melee beater with no gun to drive up the cost.
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    I believe the reason as to why Cryx is so down in the dumps is because of 3 catsers: Denny 1, Skarre1 and Witch Coven. With these 3 casters being oh so prevalent and winning in the national/global tournament scene PP just looks and says " ahhhh cryx is ffffiiiiinnnnneeeee" When in reality if we only get to use 3 casters and be competitive, that is a huge issue. Instead of worrying about maybe 6 catsers to tech vs (over 2 lists) everyone else only has to be kind of afraid about 3 casters. Even then people dont expect cryx to show up that much unless its on the national tournament level.

    I feel like we are mk2 cygnar where we have 2-3 warcasters (the 3 haleys) some jacks and a very limited amount of units, but a rich source of solos. We COULD go into mercs but they are simply pirates and while we do have that option, I might as well play mercs if I am going to buy all of those pirate models.

    our clear problems have already been talked about above for the rest of the faction, but I would gladly let denny1, skarre 1, and WC take a hit so the rest of the faction can get a buff and have a variety to go into the competitive scene other that 3 lists...

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    Annihilator Cijil's Avatar
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    Ugh, the day when we start asking for nerfs to the only three actually good casters in the stable (to be able to play something else) is a sad one.
    Quote Originally Posted by joelker41 View Post
    Most premiere cryx casters have been out for tears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTKA666 View Post
    our clear problems have already been talked about above for the rest of the faction, but I would gladly let denny1, skarre 1, and WC take a hit so the rest of the faction can get a buff and have a variety to go into the competitive scene other that 3 lists...
    I'd rather the units stay crappy and the casters get buffs. Making bad units good is a lot of the fun of Cryx.

    I'd argue that there's a simple way to judge a caster. Can they win with the ghost pirates theme list?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cijil View Post
    Ugh, the day when we start asking for nerfs to the only three actually good casters in the stable (to be able to play something else) is a sad one.
    When PP takes stock of a faction prinarily from tournament, yes. Please nerf those casters so that we can have a faction and not 3 casters...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTKA666 View Post
    I feel like we are mk2 cygnar where we have 2-3 warcasters (the 3 haleys) some jacks and a very limited amount of units, but a rich source of solos.
    I actually rarely take solos anymore, even the good ones like Pistol Wraiths, Raider Captains and Warwitch Sirens don't really do enough anymore to justify taking them over more models or jacks. The only solos I regularly take are Darragh and Machine Wraiths/Soul Trappers to fill up the spare points. Pistol Wraiths are actually pretty good in my opinion, but I've been unable to fit them in any list. Same with Raider Captains, but in addition to that they're basically just beatsticks with knockdown utility and no defensive tech. Warwitch Sirens lost value because of Powerup and losing a Magic Ability was just unnecessary.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamingdevil View Post
    The only solos I regularly take are Darragh and Machine Wraiths/Soul Trappers to fill up the spare points.
    You forgot a major one : Aiakos. Who is in such another dimension compared to the others that he's easy to forget.
    Last edited by Far2Casual; 01-18-2017 at 03:55 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamingdevil View Post
    I actually rarely take solos anymore, even the good ones like Pistol Wraiths, Raider Captains and Warwitch Sirens don't really do enough anymore to justify taking them over more models or jacks. The only solos I regularly take are Darragh and Machine Wraiths/Soul Trappers to fill up the spare points. Pistol Wraiths are actually pretty good in my opinion, but I've been unable to fit them in any list. Same with Raider Captains, but in addition to that they're basically just beatsticks with knockdown utility and no defensive tech. Warwitch Sirens lost value because of Powerup and losing a Magic Ability was just unnecessary.
    Pistol Wraiths are interesting now because you get them for free with the theme force and they provide a nice way to punish Una2. I agree with you that I can't find the points otherwise.

    The one solo I always take now are machine wraiths. They have so much utility, either in scenario or threat extension that I feel guilty if I don't take three.

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