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  1. #1

    Default Hammerfall High Shield GC, tactical arcanists and dynamic updates.

    After reading the posts on the forum, it was obvious that there was a consensus (or maybe almost) about putting those 2 units in the bottom 5% of the worse/unplayable/overprice models in the faction and even in the game. Considering the Rhulic theme force is about to be release, is there a way to submit those to PP for the next "dynamic update"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koalafrog View Post
    After reading the posts on the forum, it was obvious that there was a consensus (or maybe almost) about putting those 2 units in the bottom 5% of the worse/unplayable/overprice models in the faction and even in the game. Considering the Rhulic theme force is about to be release, is there a way to submit those to PP for the next "dynamic update"?
    You could throw in the OAC as well. I have five painted ones I really like that never see play when I'm not just messing around. Plenty of stuff could use a hand.

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    Judge Robert Shepherd's Avatar
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    The indication seems to be that Privateer will nominate models to recieve community feedback from in a controlled manner. But that's about the level of information we have presently.
    Judge since 5th November 2013
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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaede View Post
    You could throw in the OAC as well. I have five painted ones I really like that never see play when I'm not just messing around. Plenty of stuff could use a hand.
    I remember that some voices claim the OAC were good enough so it was not as much as a consensus than High shields and TAC. Then I agree with you that I will not play OAC even with Madhammer and they need fixing too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Shepherd View Post
    The indication seems to be that Privateer will nominate models to receive community feedback from in a controlled manner. But that's about the level of information we have presently.
    I don't get it, it has been describe as bottom-up initiative not top-down. The base has to nominate models then the top is proposing change no?

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    Judge Robert Shepherd's Avatar
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    On review of Matt Wilson's insider it's not clear to what extent any old models will be subject to community development anyways. The only commitment there is that, beginning in March this year with the new hordes faction, all *new* models will receive community field test time.

    Subsequent conversation may have expanded that scope; I haven't followed that discussion in it's entirety. But my understanding is that PP puts forward models for consideration, not players.

    Anyone else got anything solid on that?
    Judge since 5th November 2013
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  6. #6

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    Really the Highshields make me sad. They're a unique unit thats 21 points all told for mat/rat 5 (<== read: garbage). For 19 pts you can have Nyss which are exponentially better. Same with 20 pts for Idrians... so cheaper and better... highshields I finally just took out of my case and they sit with the trolls that I have as the few merc units that won't see table time.

    That said as a problem solver, not just a problem spotter.
    What would make me bananas about the highshields is dropping CRA CMA and giving them ROF 2 and Both Barrels as a *action and bumping their RAT to 6. At that point I'd pay 21 points for the full unit and UA. No problem.

    OAC seem fine to me, but someone recommended losing CRA for 3 ammo types with a spray 6, an Armor Piercing Shot and a regular AOE 3 attack. That'd be awesome.

    As for the TAC they need to be redesigned. They have defensive techniques that no longer apply to the unit. Ash clouds that make them def 13 aren't that omg amazing. They need Ashen Veil as aneeded ability that's just always on. And possibly a few more things to make them survivable. They just don't get to do anything cool because shooting them off the board is so easy.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk_Steel View Post
    OAC seem fine to me
    What have they achieved for you thus far?
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    Destroyer of Worlds Sebi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    What have they achieved for you thus far?
    The shoot Heavies during Durgens Feat but that about was it for me ... sadly ...
    Do it Sun Tzu style!

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    I was thinking about this the other night.

    Why not give Highshields Dig-in?
    That way they can be a 15/19 unit which is more defensive than offensive.
    Alternatively, price them at 8/12, make them FA:U and give us the option to spam the suckers

    As for the TAC, here's an idea I posted over in the game dev forum:

    As the TAC are trained to fight as a unit, the fix should reflect this in game terms as well as fluff terms.
    Box spam and Arm skew are both things which are core to the game and have their own issues. However, it looks like with the change to the warcasters powerfield we may have a solution provided.

    Each member of the unit would gain a special action which they can "Generate an arcane token" for the unit. These tokens would be capped off at 3. Each member of the unit also has the ability like "Fire shield: When a model in this unit takes damage, it can consume an arcane token to negate 5 damage."
    Make them start the game with 0, and balancing the unit can involve whether or not the tokens persist from round to round. It would mean that fluff wise the other members of the unit are focusing on weathering the incoming attacks, making it an active defense rather than an increased passive.

    Complexity wise it's also lighter on book keeping than boxes.
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    I think Dig In would be perfect for the gun corps!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribbits View Post
    I think Dig In would be perfect for the gun corps!
    Then they couldn't Shield Wall.

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    I think I'd rather they dig in than shield wall, honestly. Defense 15 is far from perfect, but the immunity to blast damage seems pretty good to me. I'm just not really sure what role the Gun Corps are supposed to fill right now since the Forge Guard seem to do "heavy armor" better than the Gun Corps does

  13. #13

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    Ogrun have cleared infantry, I've gotten lucky drifts in and thanks to cra they're semi accurate, and a pow 17 shot has come in handy especially if I have something to slow w/e I'm shooting down by jamming it. Also thanks to cra, shooting into melds isn't as problematic.
    Last edited by Broken Crow; 01-13-2017 at 10:39 AM.
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    Annihilator Kenlen's Avatar
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    Yeah, the OAC do a little bit of everything, they just don't do it well enough IMO. The only time where I feel that they're worth it is on Durgen's feat turn. To me it feels like they're a well designed and properly priced UA away from being good.

    As is, I'm not sure if a point reduction would be the proper fix. Of course, assuming they need fixing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaede View Post
    Then they couldn't Shield Wall.
    Why not? Shield Wall is an order, Dig In is a special action. They could receive the Shield Wall order, then take the Dig In action instead of shooting; they'd just need to dig in next to each other. Then, provided they don't move, they could Shield Wall the next turn and shoot.

    Of course, they're too slow to contribute to the game at all if they do dig in, so maybe have the CA give them Advanced Deploy.

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    Annihilator Kenlen's Avatar
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    Smallest change I can see that would make High Shields worthwile:
    Min unit 8 points, max unit 13 points.
    UA loses Double Time order, gains reposition 3", either as a "Granted" ability for 4 points, or as "Tactics" for 5 points.

    I don't think this makes them to good for their points. If it does, then min unit for 9, max unit for 14.

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    What exactly is the difference in granted and tactics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAdept View Post
    Why not? Shield Wall is an order, Dig In is a special action. They could receive the Shield Wall order, then take the Dig In action instead of shooting; they'd just need to dig in next to each other. Then, provided they don't move, they could Shield Wall the next turn and shoot.

    Of course, they're too slow to contribute to the game at all if they do dig in, so maybe have the CA give them Advanced Deploy.
    I'm sorry. I remembered it wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribbits View Post
    What exactly is the difference in granted and tactics?
    Granted abilities only work while the model that grants them is in play. Tactics are always active, so a tactic wouldn't be lost if the UA died.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Crow View Post
    Also thanks to cra, shooting into melds isn't as problematic.
    Assuming you mean stabby combat and not just Bethayne....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Norway View Post
    Assuming you mean stabby combat and not just Bethayne....
    A unit cannot normally fire CRAs into melee combat (it requires a specific rule the name of which escapes me currently).
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    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zzapper View Post
    A unit cannot normally fire CRAs into melee combat (it requires a specific rule the name of which escapes me currently).
    Ayep, which is my point.
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  23. #23

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    If the theme force would have given a unit of Highshields Ambush, I think they would have been worth it within the confines of the theme.

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    Destroyer of Worlds StJason's Avatar
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    I feel like I beat a drum sometimes around here:

    High Shields: Lose CRA/CMA. Gain Roadblock (probably a little rule saying they only get it if in Shield Wall), Dual Fire, and Both Barrels.
    (So, grant cover to things behind them. Fire twice if standing, or give up extra shot for +4 POW)

    OAC: Lose CRA/CMA. Gain Attack Type (from Durgen)
    (Side note: before they came out, this was pretty much the RPG description of an Ogrun Battlecannon)

    TAC: Lose both spells (and possibly Righteous Flames). Gain Eruption (from Gorton)
    (Use offensively (POW 14), defensively (cloud effect), or drop it on themselves. But you only get three...)

    These three little things would make them all so much more useful!

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    I'd want simple changes to the infantry options to bring up to speed:

    Gun Corps: Replace Double Time with Reposition (3). It'sdumb that you lose the main "point" of the Gun Corps to use the officers ability.

    Forge Guard: Pathfinder on the Charge.

    OAC: Girded.

    TAC: Replace Rightous Flame with either Ashen Veil or just plain concealment all the time.

    I think the jacks, casters and solos are all fine ATM, but the infantry needs something more to make them viable to merc armies, and support the army in Them forces.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Sebi's Avatar
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    all in all ... even with thses additions the TAC simply dies too easily.

    Def and Arm combined mean the die to POW10 shots and even boosted Blasts become dangerous.

    So here PP did not a good job in my opinion stripping the TAC's HPs without adding any compensation.

    If I look at similar priced choices like Blythe and Bull or the DSM ... the TAC doesn't do it for me on paper.

    BUT: I admit I haven't played them so far ... maybe there is a way to get them running (pun intended) but till now ... I simply am not masochistic enough to tr
    Do it Sun Tzu style!

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    Quote Originally Posted by StJason View Post
    I feel like I beat a drum sometimes around here:

    High Shields: Lose CRA/CMA. Gain Roadblock (probably a little rule saying they only get it if in Shield Wall), Dual Fire, and Both Barrels.
    (So, grant cover to things behind them. Fire twice if standing, or give up extra shot for +4 POW)

    OAC: Lose CRA/CMA. Gain Attack Type (from Durgen)
    (Side note: before they came out, this was pretty much the RPG description of an Ogrun Battlecannon)

    TAC: Lose both spells (and possibly Righteous Flames). Gain Eruption (from Gorton)
    (Use offensively (POW 14), defensively (cloud effect), or drop it on themselves. But you only get three...)

    These three little things would make them all so much more useful!
    If High Shields lost CRA they wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn in addition to being ahort ranged and low POW. Why would you want that?

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    I've always thought that ROF2, Both Barrels would make High shields much better than they currently are.

    Yes they'd still be slow and easily hit, but they're dwarfs after all. At least ROF2 / BB would give them some punch, and a greater depth of utility.

    It's a bummer that these guys don't perform on the table like i'd like the to because they are easily one of my favorite sculpts in PP's range. I love the dwarf doughboy with carbine look.
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    It's sad for me that one of the greatest "fantasy" tropes isn't even their own army. It's a sub section of a mercenary army..
    I know PP doesn't sign with traditional values, but it would be nice to get them involved more rather than being the "red-headed stepchild" of a sub-faction..

    On my 7th year with them and still hold hope for them to be recognised one day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenlen View Post
    Smallest change I can see that would make High Shields worthwile:
    Min unit 8 points, max unit 13 points.
    UA loses Double Time order, gains reposition 3", either as a "Granted" ability for 4 points, or as "Tactics" for 5 points.

    I don't think this makes them to good for their points. If it does, then min unit for 9, max unit for 14.
    I really agree on this one. It would also be nice if they got Extended Fire mini feat (snipe).
    Or perhaps RoF 2 with Both Barrels instead of mini feat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mod_Haight View Post
    I've always thought that ROF2, Both Barrels would make High shields much better than they currently are.

    Yes they'd still be slow and easily hit, but they're dwarfs after all. At least ROF2 / BB would give them some punch, and a greater depth of utility.

    It's a bummer that these guys don't perform on the table like i'd like the to because they are easily one of my favorite sculpts in PP's range. I love the dwarf doughboy with carbine look.
    Agreed--I think a specialty of close-range and high-volume fire (the sort of weapons you want in tunnels or mountain passes) would give them a niche distinct from other Mercenary ranged units.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyZealot View Post
    On my 7th year with them and still hold hope for them to be recognised one day.
    As in releases or fluff?

    They are hardly the only aspect of the world lacking fiction, whilst Mark3 has been very good for them mechanically (More than Thorbreaker + caster on table. Madness.)
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    Our group has found corner-case, marginal uses for OAC (snipe, Jonas in cygnar when you're giving the devil dogs a break, kreoss pop n' drop when you don't have much protectorate) and Arcanists (hiding casters, tokens for Nemo), in part because of limited model pool. Does anyone actually do anything with high shields? Picked them up some time ago as part of a trade lot, and we've got absolutely nothing so far. They just might be uniquely bad. Is there nothing for them, as this thread suggests, other than to await a dynamic update?

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    This past errata has been extremely light on 'buffs', far less than what we starry-eyes hoped for. I guess adjust our expectations back to beginning of mk2 and any bones that come our way will be a bonus.
    Signatures take too much space.

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    Destroyer of Worlds FluffyZealot's Avatar
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    @Angry Norway.
    Was just venting.

    I tried to get more info about the whole of Rhulic society, magic and pretty much anything else but was met with 'we might do a book sometime in the future'.

    Game wise, I really want to see them be something scary of the tabletop. In other games in competitive circles, a dwarf player would be met with respect rather than amusement.

    /rant
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyZealot View Post
    @Angry Norway.
    Was just venting.

    I tried to get more info about the whole of Rhulic society, magic and pretty much anything else but was met with 'we might do a book sometime in the future'.

    Game wise, I really want to see them be something scary of the tabletop. In other games in competitive circles, a dwarf player would be met with respect rather than amusement.

    /rant
    The fact that the list is getting the NQ treatment suggests that a Rhul book is a looooong way off assuming it's even anything more than an afterthought.

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    Judge Robert Shepherd's Avatar
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    I concur with Slaede's brutal realism.
    Judge since 5th November 2013
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  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaede View Post
    The fact that the list is getting the NQ treatment suggests that a Rhul book is a looooong way off assuming it's even anything more than an afterthought.
    Hopefully my pirates will get a book... you know... at some point. I'd rather that than some mid-year No Quarter magazine, honestly. I'm that rare dude that still likes books to go with my hobby, and seeing all the Merc and Minion themes cranking out in NQ seems a little sad.

  39. #39
    Destroyer of Worlds Angry Norway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyZealot View Post
    In other games in competitive circles, a dwarf player would be met with respect rather than amusement.
    .....are you genuinely being met with amusement?
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    How do dynamic updates work?

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