Seraphobia: why am I the only one with it?

[bamburn]

I have been seeing a lot of Legion players posting that they think the Seraph is underpowered at 8 points. I have still been facing double Seraph lists, and I think it is still a brutal beast to face. Now I didn't sneak out of my Circle forums to come here to be flamed, I am hoping to get up to speed with where the rest of the MKII Hordes world is at. Here is why the Seraph causes dread for me:

-Seraph with Vayl's Incite absolutely shreds all of my infanry with average rolls. Being an effective RAT 7 and POW 14 kills a lot of stuff.
-Manifest Destiney with a Seraph is pretty brutal too.
-My wolds are hit on below average dice and get peppered pretty handily with the starfe.
-Sentry Stones and Shifting stones cannot stand up to the Seraph and it is impossible to portect them with clouds, forests, or interveining models.
-They are still pretty useful with eLylyth.
-They have a 17 inch threat range (assuming slip stream from another Seraph or a flying warlock).
-There is no longer a fear of a flubbed 1st roll negating the strafe.

All-in-all, I think they are ridiculously good still. What am I missing?

[Malkav13]

I still think that they are good, but 8pts is quite expensive.

[CorporateSellout]

-Seraph with Vayl's Incite absolutely shreds all of my infanry with average rolls. Being an effective RAT 7 and POW 14 kills a lot of stuff.
-Manifest Destiney with a Seraph is pretty brutal too.

Don't confuse OP spells and abilities with a powerful warbeast. Incite and MD make almost anything good/great. That could just as easily be 4 harriers ripping your troops apart with their MAT 7 charges.

-There is no longer a fear of a flubbed 1st roll negating the strafe.

Oh yes there is... it's just that the first roll is now just with one die and can't be boosted to assure it. If they roll a 1 on their strafe roll, their 8pt ARM 16 heavy warbeast just makes one POW 12 attack then waits to be shot to pieces.

[Nargacuga]

Its an 8-point Heavy Warbeast with only 3 focus, ARM 16, can't slam, and has a wildly inconsistent ranged attack.

[alchahest]

how does it shred infantry unless your infantry is bunched up? check the new formation rules, they're... much more forgiving for infantry.

I agree, anything under really good buff spells is really good.

strafe is unreliable. you can still roll a one, and then you've got a heavy beast you paid 8 points for, unable to make power attacks, that is making one attack

they do have a nice threat range.

they're just not reliably worth 8 points. they're not terrible, just, sometimes they're not worth the points, is all (and yes, sometimes they're worth more than the points). the issue isn't that they can't be useful, it's that you don't know what you're getting for the high point cost, besides a gimped heavy. If every strafe roll was a guaranteed six, I'd cost this thing at 15 points. but it's not.

[CorporateSellout]

I have to agree that part of it is the combination of a high point cost and unreliablity. On a cheaper (some might say throw away model), I wouldn't mind the gamble, but for a significant investment I have to be sure it'll be able to deliver when I need it to.

[Loveless]

Obviously, since Strafe is unreliable, the Seraph should be costed at 3 + d6 points

I think if it's statline was brought up to something more like the Angelius, and/or the ranged attack was given additional ROF it would be more worth the 8 points. It's still pretty flimsy for what it does.

The Angelius pays for Thrust and Flame Jet - both of which are pretty solid. The Seraph pays for its tail and its ranged weapon - though these are not as solid as the Angel's. The point cost difference between them should account for this - ergo, the Seraph should have the Angel's statline (including FURY 4) if it's to be 8 points.

[RoyalAssassin]

I certainly wouldn't presume to speak for all of Legion on the topic, but here's why I think the Seraph is in need of some fixin':

It's enslaved to the randomizer. An 8-point beast that can (and has) thrown 6 shots over the course of a 5-turn game isn't worth the cost. Add in RAT 5 on a ranged-attack beast, and now I've got to risk getting one shot and missing it, or aiming it somewhere a POW12 won't make much of a difference.

14 DEF/16 ARM, 25 hit boxes, and 3 Fury doesn't feel heavy at all. It feels and plays like a light. I don't feel like heavy warbeasts are things I should be hiding from the fight and guarding - heavy warbeasts should be guarding the cruncy bits.

No power attacks. It's got head butt, and that's it. No Throws, Slams, Locks, or Tramples. On a heavy warbeast.

Opportunity cost. It's 8 points. The Angelius is 9. The Angel carries an armor piercing strike, and it's every bit as good at shooting as a Seraph that rolled a 1 for number of shots. I don't think the Angel is overpowered at 9, I just don't see a lot of reasons past Slipstream to take a Seraph when 1 more point gets me a much more threatening heavy.

-Seraph with Vayl's Incite absolutely shreds all of my infanry with average rolls. Being an effective RAT 7 and POW 14 kills a lot of stuff.
-Manifest Destiney with a Seraph is pretty brutal too.

Incite and Manifest Destiny make everything look better. RAT7 and POW14 are nice, but neither of them influence the number-of-shots roll.

-My wolds are hit on below average dice and get peppered pretty handily with the starfe.

I assume you mean the woldwatchers? Seraphs are at dice -6 against woldwarden armor, about a point a shot unboosted or 4ish boosted. It could take a long time to bring down 35hp at that rate of damage output. Two of them might could stack up damage on it pretty fast, but I'm pretty sure two Angels would be much worse for them and only 2 points more expensive.

-Sentry Stones and Shifting stones cannot stand up to the Seraph and it is impossible to portect them with clouds, forests, or interveining models.

I think this is more of a problem with the stones than with the Seraph. Made of Stone made them a little too tough to drop, IMHO, but the absence of it and nothing to make up for it makes them a little too fragile.

-They are still pretty useful with eLylyth.

Stealth and d6+1 shots at 16" on the feat turn isn't nothing. It's better but not great. They do make her a little more slippery with the animus, but eLylyth suffers from an astonishing quantity of mediocrity in general.

-They have a 17 inch threat range (assuming slip stream from another Seraph or a flying warlock).

I could probably threaten further than that - 6" Leash, 6" move, 2" Slip, 12" gun - 26"? I just don't have a reliable threat at that range - it's great if I can launch 6 POW12s at that kind of distance, and kinda stupid if I can only launch one. Lack of consistency.

[CorporateSellout]

IMO it doesn't necessarily have to play like a heavy if it's going to be a heavy... it's just a name. The only analog I have from my WM faction (Khador) is the berserker who has some light warjack-ish stats compared to the other heavies of the faction. What redeems it, though, (to some extent) is that it retains a light warjack cost. It's fine to me if the seraph remains a light beast in all but name, but if that be the case it needs to also have a light beast's cost.

[bamburn]

Thanks for the responses.

I guess my fears probably stem from not enough experience seeing these poor strafe rolls. So my fear is probably irrational.

The hard part I guess would be making the Seraph reliable at 8 points, and not make it over the top with Vayl and eThagy.

[Dance_Of_Death]

Thanks for the responses.

I guess my fears probably stem from not enough experience seeing these poor strafe rolls. So my fear is probably irrational.

The hard part I guess would be making the Seraph reliable at 8 points, and not make it over the top with Vayl and eThagy.

It?s not so much irrational, and more to do with the fact your friend is willing to spend the 16 points to try and mitigate some of the randomness.

Don't get me wrong, I've had some good games with them. If I am getting 4+ shots a turn, and rolling pretty good versus def, that model can really put some hurt on infantry and light beast/jacks. However with my opponents becoming savvier with their use of formations, minus the influence of terrain, the seraph is steadily losing its potency.

I think most would agree, the real problem with the seraph is that the model is point inefficient. If you?re playing a 50 point game that?s fine, but at 25 this model just doesn't provide enough. Conclusion, the field test Seraph at 8 points is based on luck and slipstream more then anything else.

[PPS_Mod:Not Dice]

14 DEF/16 ARM, 25 hit boxes, and 3 Fury doesn't feel heavy at all. It feels and plays like a light.

I thought this an unusual statement given my studies on the statlines of all the beasts in the game. DEF+ARM on heavies averages a sum of 30, which the Seraph does. Average health on heavies varies by faction- 28ish for Dire Trolls, 25 for living Circle heavies (the Woldwarden is a bit of a corner case), and 27ish for Skorne. Legion is 26.25 on average, with the Seraph on the low end of the scale.

In regards to its stats, it's consistent with trends for heavies by faction.

[Neutralyze]

consistent based on pure statline?

i guess its just his 3 fury and lower end damage when compared to a heavy. he is tied with the angel for the pow 14 but the angel has that AP special and reach.

[withershadow]

I have been seeing a lot of Legion players posting that they think the Seraph is underpowered at 8 points. I have still been facing double Seraph lists, and I think it is still a brutal beast to face. Now I didn't sneak out of my Circle forums to come here to be flamed, I am hoping to get up to speed with where the rest of the MKII Hordes world is at. Here is why the Seraph causes dread for me:

-Seraph with Vayl's Incite absolutely shreds all of my infanry with average rolls. Being an effective RAT 7 and POW 14 kills a lot of stuff.
-Manifest Destiney with a Seraph is pretty brutal too.

You are mistaking very powerful spells with a beast. In MkI, the charger was universally reviled as the worst jack ever, yet was quite useful with Kraye. Those spells can make the crappiest beast excellent, but without them the warbeast is quite weaksause, especially at 8 points.

Also, if you are letting your infantry get shredded by strafe, you have serious issues with positioning. I suggest you read both the strafe and formation rules again, and the innate issues with strafe should become quite clear. The seraph may kill one or two infantry, but then should immediately suffer a horrible death at the hands of the survivors.

There is no longer a fear of a flubbed 1st roll negating the strafe.

Except now you are more likely to just get one shot period. The first roll was always boosted to hit, so flubbing it wasn't very likely.

[Soulblighter]

I thought this an unusual statement given my studies on the statlines of all the beasts in the game. DEF+ARM on heavies averages a sum of 30, which the Seraph does. Average health on heavies varies by faction- 28ish for Dire Trolls, 25 for living Circle heavies (the Woldwarden is a bit of a corner case), and 27ish for Skorne. Legion is 26.25 on average, with the Seraph on the low end of the scale.

In regards to its stats, it's consistent with trends for heavies by faction.

Its statline is more or less fine. But its statline isnt the problem. FURY3 and Strafe[d6] is the problem. The Seraph lacks the same hitting power and reliability of other warbeasts in the same points range. Not to mention its RNG10 weapon makes it easy to lockdown in melee where it performs worse than several light warbeasts.

[Necra-Chi]

Thanks for the responses.

I guess my fears probably stem from not enough experience seeing these poor strafe rolls. So my fear is probably irrational.

The hard part I guess would be making the Seraph reliable at 8 points, and not make it over the top with Vayl and eThagy.

That about sums it up.

IMO all it needs is ROF 2.

It is still an excellent and scary warbeast on any turn it doesn't roll a 1.

BTW don't trust what you read on here too much. Trust what you experience on the table. And what you've experienced matches what I've experienced.

Also ignore all this rubbish about the new unit formations helping against strafe. Strafe isn't really for shredding infantry, its more of a medium target, solo or warlock drilling machine. But there are very often occasions when infantry is bunched up by necessity of combat and terrain and then a good strafing can wreck a bunch of them.

[RoyalAssassin]

I thought this an unusual statement given my studies on the statlines of all the beasts in the game. DEF+ARM on heavies averages a sum of 30, which the Seraph does. Average health on heavies varies by faction- 28ish for Dire Trolls, 25 for living Circle heavies (the Woldwarden is a bit of a corner case), and 27ish for Skorne. Legion is 26.25 on average, with the Seraph on the low end of the scale.

In regards to its stats, it's consistent with trends for heavies by faction.

It's not the stats, exactly. It's the feel and the tactics involved in using them.

Take the Angel, by way of comparison. It's got similar DEF/ARM and identical health. It's also got crippling offensive power at a serious threat range. It's "heavy" in the sense that a missile is heavy; it does horrifying damage but doesn't take return fire very well. I find that unless I take pains to protect it, it's a matter of trading my Angel for whatever enemy model it erases. Angel charges, erases a model, and is then charged and killed (full disclosure - all of my roommates play Warmachine factions, so I might be undervaluing 13 defense vs Hordes). It's fine; it's a heavy spike mounted on a (comparatively) frail chassis.

Or the Carnivean - heavy in every conventional sense of the word. Khador-class armor with its animus, solid striking power, not-quite-top-end-(for-Hordes-anyway) health. It's also fine, and with MAT6, feels about right for the points.

Then there's the Seraph. It's mounted on (mostly) the same chassis as the Angel, but lacks the Angel's reliable striking power. It's got one melee attack at low P+S for a heavy, and a random gun that may or may not be good for anything. You can't move it forward and spray off infantry, because you can't count on it wiping out enough infantry to prevent it from getting charged. You can't aim it like a cruise missile at an enemy heavy - you can't count on it penetrating heavy armor or doing enough damage to make it worth the inevitable charge. Engaging infantry or engaging heavies, you can't afford to have it charged - it's every bit as likely to be erased as the Angel, and much less likely to have traded its life for an enemy's.

Oh yeah, and 3 Fury

I don't hate the Seraph. The animus is astonishing and when it can roll moderately well, it's fine. If I could count on it, or if I could feel safe that it could survive its own failure, I'd use it. As it is, it has neither heavy offense nor heavy defense nor heavy-equivalent Fury, and consequently, doesn't feel heavy.

[Defenstrator]

Royal Assassin has summed up my feelings on the Seraph perfectly.

[Jaster]

Strafe isn't really for shredding infantry, its more of a medium target, solo or warlock drilling machine. But there are very often occasions when infantry is bunched up by necessity of combat and terrain and then a good strafing can wreck a bunch of them.

/agree I've always perfered to just pound one target as much as I can with multi-fire ranged attacks.

[Soulblighter]

If the Seraph is intended for pounding single targets theres much better weapon profiles that reflect that which dont involve Strafe. Strafe was always intended to be an anti-infantry mechanic and Legion players simply abused it with the Seraph's POW12 and incite. That potential for abuse is why the Seraph will never be improved beyond what it is now. The Seraph will never be made Strafe + ROF:2 because the potential for seven POW14 shots is simply too good. If we want a better Seraph then we have to find a way to fix Strafe that that doesnt involve increasing its upper damage limit. That said, I wouldnt mind it having Strafe [2d3] nor would I mind getting rid of Strafe and having FURY4, +1 RAT, and the manticore's POW12 RNG12 ROF3 gun. Both work for me.

[Necra-Chi]

There's something else that is very significant about seraphs in Mk2 that I think a lot of people are missing.

If a seraph gets elevated, it can see EVERYTHING. Barring tall obstructions it sees through clouds, forests and intervening models. All of them, because it has a large bases and everyone elses base on a lower level is the same size or smaller. This has always been the case but now there is no screening bonus. The screening bonus used to make shooting behind intervening models without eliminating them first, very difficult. Now the the seraph just shoots the behind models as easily as the front.

But it gets better than that. Strafe doe sthe same thing. You have to choose a target in LOS but all the additional shots can potentially be placed ignoring intervening models within the allocation limits of strafe. This has always been the case but again, there is no screening. You don't have to drill your way through a screening unit to get rid of the screening bonus, you can shoot the guys behind just as easily as the guys in front.

I can't descibe to you how huge this is. I have SO often used this tactic to get casters or valuable support solos and its always been risky because of screening bonus, now its much easier.

What it means is that the only help that an intervening model gives your opponent's caster, is to halve the number of strafe shots that can be shot at him. And if the seraph can get elevated, you don't even halve the shots.

Think on it a bit. Intervening models. Do nothing but reduce the shots, unless you get elevated, and then they do nothing.

This why the seraph won't get FURY 4. That would mean that whenever a seraph rolls a 4 on strafe it can easily or almost always get two boosted to hit boosted damage shots on the enemy caster.

[Soulblighter]

This why the seraph won't get FURY 4. That would mean that whenever a seraph rolls a 4 on strafe it can easily or almost always get two boosted to hit boosted damage shots on the enemy caster.

Yes we already knew that. It will never get FURY4 as is unless its weapon profile changes. If the Seraph stays as is, the best you can hope for is Strafe[2d3].

[Necra-Chi]

You might know it, but I don't think you're appreciating it.

[Soulblighter]

when I dont have to suffer through rolling 1s on strafe then ill appreciate it :P

[jonconcarne]

personally, I don't usually play with lots of hills. One at the most. With the relatively high cost of the Seraph and its randomness, I just don't see why it shouldn't have 4 fury. I mean, I understand what you're saying Necra about getting 2 fully boosted shots at their caster. I just see it the same way as the Troll dygmies or the helldiver. You keep your caster away from it until that threat is dealt with. Granted, I'd say you're probably a much better player than I am, but still. Why does the Seraph need to be so random in all it does. Strafe [d6] and crit poison. I'd just like a little more reliability out of it, whether in ranged or melee. I've had it do awesome, but I've also had the epic fail of 1's on a strafe roll twice in a row. Not so much fun. *shrug* just my two cents.

[Lazlo]

Obviously, since Strafe is unreliable, the Seraph should be costed at 3 + d6 points

I would totally go for that, if the die I roll for it's point cost was what I got to use for all of it's strafe attacks for the game.

[bochaba]

The only thing Id like to change with the seraph is the ability to pre-roll strafe at the beginning of its turn. That way, I dont have to put it in harms way for a very ineffectual turn. It's only in that scenario that I feel it isnt worth its points. By being able to manage poor strafe rolls by using it for other options (slipstreaming, attacking outliers, charging) would be very useful without significantly increasing it's power level.

[mladjanobugarce]

There is warjack that can easily shoot two POW 12 RANGE 12 inches shots with boosted both attack and damage rolls with I think RAT 6 and its cost is 4 points!

[Necra-Chi]

There is warjack that can easily shoot two POW 12 RANGE 12 inches shots with boosted both attack and damage rolls with I think RAT 6 and its cost is 4 points!

It doesn't get to totally ignore intervening models, cloud effects and forests though.

[Soulblighter]

It doesn't get to totally ignore intervening models, cloud effects and forests though

I would gladly take two Chargers over one Seraph. Its four guaranteed shots with the same POW, higher RAT, better RNG, and powerful blast. Eyeless Sight is good but its usefulness is frequently overrated. Also any advantage Strafe has is completely negated by its erraticness.

[Necra-Chi]

If chargers could use fury, I agree I'd rather have 2 chargers.

Its a pretty meaningless comparison.

I hate the erraticness, I can't help but love the ability to ignore intervening models.

Ignoring intervening models wins games.

[Neutralyze]

If chargers could use fury, I agree I'd rather have 2 chargers.

Its a pretty meaningless comparison.

I hate the erraticness, I can't help but love the ability to ignore intervening models.

Ignoring intervening models wins games.

thats what we need on our teraphs, ROF2.

[Necra-Chi]

Can I change my feedback? I did most of my feedback last night but forgot about your excellent suggestion of ROF 2 for the teraph. I suggested thresher but I also like the idea of ROF 2. Either or. I'd also like to offer the Strafe 2D3 idea for the seraph, though I have my reservations about that.

[Soulblighter]

If chargers could use fury, I agree I'd rather have 2 chargers.

Its a pretty meaningless comparison.

I hate the erraticness, I can't help but love the ability to ignore intervening models.

Ignoring intervening models wins games.

2 focus is still a minimal focus expenditure and thats all you need to give the Chargers for them to make four shots. Theres no way a Seraph is equal to two Chargers despite the fact they consume 2 focus.

[Necra-Chi]

There is definitely a way. The seraph CAN get the same or more shots with no fury at all. And it can fly over buildings, ignore concealment forests and clouds and also intervening models for some of its shots.

[Soulblighter]

There is definitely a way. The seraph CAN get the same or more shots with no fury at all. And it can fly over buildings, ignore concealment forests and clouds and also intervening models for some of its shots.

The seraph CAN also get 1 shot. Getting 4 shots all the time is much better than getting 1-6 shots at random. Now if the Seraph had Strafe[2d3] Itd be making 3-5 shots most of the time which would put it much more in line with where it should be compared to 2 Chargers.

[Necra-Chi]

The chargers are spending focus to get 4 shots all the time.

[Aedric]

2d3 is probably the best option. I suppose worst case scenario I'll use it as a paper weight.

[Thunder_God]

1 die is never good, it's way too random, the more dice you roll the closer you come to the average (for each die). This is why a 3d6 has an actual curve, whereas a 1d20 is quite flat.

Strafe is locked, but I think it'd have been much better if the new Strafe was 2d3 instead of 1d6. This way we'd also have kept the 2 shots minimum, and 6 shots maximum. The average would have been 4, somewhere between mark 1's 4.5 and today's 3.5.

But hey, that's just me.
(And now that I actually read the last three comments in the thread, it seems others also thought of it.)

[Soulblighter]

2d3 is definitely more balanced. The Seraph with Strafe[2d3] actually feels like its worth 8 points. You can rely on getting 3-5 shots most of the time due to the bell curve. And even getting 2 shots isnt completely debilitating.